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Intro:
Most people see ZvZ as a boring matchup revolting around sling bling/roach rushing, this is usually true and it will feel as if ZvZ comes down to "luck".
Mutalisk openers are very underused in the ZvZ matchup while they aren't bad at all.
This build will give you:
-complete mapcontrol + ability to snipe overlords and even drones
-the ability to deflect early attacks such as the "unstoppable Destiny build" and other timing attacks that come around 7-9 minutes.
-an opportunity to safely expand while the opponent is in the dark.
-the ability to scout what the opponent is doing/what kind of army he has. In ZvZ this is difficult before overseer tech.
-Mutalisks will force the enemy to create spores and/or extra queens and give up his mapcontrol.
-an upgrade lead because of the early evo
-safe transition into macro ZvZ <- fun!
Now what if he goes hatch first and your mutalisks don't kill any drones?
Your mutalisks will ALWAYS deal damage.
He will have to buy at least 4 spores and extra queens + evo chamber early on (500ish minerals). You can snipe overlords spread around the map for 100minerals each and supply blocking him. If he's overconfident and think he can bust you with roaches, you will be able to kill the roaches and nullify his attack costing him alot of larva and resources.
Will you not be behind on economy if he's on 2 base and you're on 1 base?
No, you will rely on your simcity and spines to defend all of his early units. Most importantly, you will be overdroning on 1 base while your natural expansion is building. Once your expansion pops, you will have perfect 2 base saturation
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/tl1o.png/
Your opponent will be droning after his expansion goes up. All you have to do is transfer the drones you made in the 1basing phase to your natural and you're ahead/equal on eco. You can start pumping out units while he's busy droning and kill him in this timeframe. OR you can play it safe and take a 3rd.
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/tl2s.png/
When should you use this?
This works perfectly on ladder and tournaments (bo1, risky to try this more than once on the same opponent.). Medium-Large maps preferred to hold off any kind of roach pressure. Smaller maps will mean that you have to build more spines to defend until your mutas are out. The only weakness of this build is sling bling allins. You will need very good simcity building placement and 1/2 queens to block off entrances for the blings. It's possible to hold off even 2 base sling bling allins with proper placements.
Since you need a good simcity building placements, maps with open mineral lines are not recommended vs sling bling players
These maps are:
Testbug <big no
Terminus
Metalopolis is risky but possible.
This is how you want your simcity to be vs sling bling
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/tl3.png/
You might want to add an extra queen to block off the left side if it's a big bling allin.
As you can see I've added an early evo chamber just to block. This is only if you scout/expect sling/bling allins.
The buildorder:
Note: the amount of spines vary from game to game. You will need to scout with your overlord/zerglings and respond accordingly. You may also get the evo chamber earlier or an additional queen. Do all it takes to survive until your mutas pop.
+ Show Spoiler +
9 OL
14 Pool
15 Gas (3 drones)
15 OL
100% Pool - Queen + 1-2 pairs of lings to scout for bling nest
If you scout bling nest go to the next section
20-23 Spine
100% Queen - Lair + 2nd gas(3 drones)
26 OL
26 Optional spine
100% lair - spire + 2nd queen
34 2x OL
34 Evo chamber
34 5 mutalisks
34 Expand
100% evo +1 ranged
From here on pump 1 more round of drones then make a roach warren
Roach warren 100% - Speed upgrade
Hatch 100% transfer 18-22 drones and make 3rd gas
Now you can decide to drone to full saturation or switch to roach mode and kill him.
If you scout little defence or if his allins have failed to deal any dmg, go roach mode.
Variation to deny scouting:
+ Show Spoiler +Thank you sclol!Instead of simcitying at your mineral line, you build your spines at the ramp, denying any scouting with 4 lings and a spine. Once your lair finishes, you build an additional queen to help block in case of sling/bling. The 2nd queen does NOT cut eco. The additional lings however, do. + Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/tl6a.png
Help! banelings!:
+ Show Spoiler +So you've scouted an early baneling nest. This is what you've got to do to take a guaranteed win:
-----
Execution:
You will need to spread your overlords in a line to his base to see what he's throwing at you. These overlords will also play a big role when you decide to attack. You can use the spew creep ability to make a quick creep highway allowing your roaches to reach the enemy's base even quicker.
With your mutas you will defend attacks, kill OLs and snipe drones/queens.
Usually you won't be able to snipe drones unless he's not scouted it.
Remember the positions of his early scouting OLs and try to snipe them. Keep flying past his natural ramp to see what army he has and how big his army is.
If you feel that your army is bigger than his, go attack him.
It is very important that you don't miss ANY larva injects. You have about a 120 second time frame where you can attack and where your opponent has minimal units.
Try to get a good concave and keep your mutas out of spore fire.
If he has only hydras, try surrounding the hydras with your roaches and they will die in no-time.
Your best time frame to attack/expand
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/tl5.png/
He will have this:
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/tl4.png/
Good against:
-Destinys "unstoppable ZvZ" (free win for you)
-5RR/7RR/8RR since you have the spines.
-Hydra responses(He will not have enough resources for roaches and pure hydras will die to your roaches)
-Any standard play will put you to equal eco but you will have map control with mutas.
-Quick 3rd
Difficult but still good against:
-2 base sling/bling allin. (Comes down on the map and the simcity you have)
Bad against:
-1 base hydra(lolwut)
-Infestor rush(You will have equal eco but you'll also have map control)
Possible counters:
Many spines and queens. (Spanishiwa?)
If you scout this you can take a 3rd and 4th easily because you can deny his 3rd with mutas. He will need mobile AA to move out.
Replays:
Top master league zerg responded with infestors but couldn't get them out in time.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs Advisory z33k thursday 8 game 1.SC2Replay
Destiny's epic fail.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs FOXDisloK Late night cup 42.SC2Replay
Top master zerg responding with roach hydra(bad choice because you will fall behind)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs Larsson z33k #8.SC2Replay
Destiny's epic fail.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs Merlon z33k thursday 8 game 1.SC2Replay
More replays of sling/bling incoming
Feedback appreciated and I'll try to answer questions 
Ingame EU uvFeareD.389 US GrackyChan.504
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This was the only ZvZ strategy I used on the ladder for awhile. I hated it if I ever had to play the same person back to back though.
I prefer to use Day[9]'s strategy with roaches to defend in lieu of spines:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Tech_with_Roaches_(vs._Zerg)
If I see hatch first I do a 3 roach wall and have enough gas & min once spire is done for 4-5 mutas. I typically over saturate my main so once my expo is finished I have an equal drone count with higher tech and map control. Just a smaller army but an army that they can't attack 
I think this build would be bad against someone that does a spanishiwa build with 1-2 spores at each base around 6 min mark. If you deny them scouting of your lair timing though it is hard for them to know if it is an all-in like Destiny's rush or a mutas rush like you and I do.
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tried it worked well but i feel like a second queen when lair finished would be pretty big
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what do you do if your oppenents go also mutas?Do you stick with muta production or do you directly get infestors?
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First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything.
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On May 28 2011 20:35 JadedKnight wrote:This was the only ZvZ strategy I used on the ladder for awhile. I hated it if I ever had to play the same person back to back though. I prefer to use Day[9]'s strategy with roaches to defend in lieu of spines: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Tech_with_Roaches_(vs._Zerg)If I see hatch first I do a 3 roach wall and have enough gas & min once spire is done for 4-5 mutas. I typically over saturate my main so once my expo is finished I have an equal drone count with higher tech and map control. Just a smaller army but an army that they can't attack I think this build would be bad against someone that does a spanishiwa build with 1-2 spores at each base around 6 min mark. If you deny them scouting of your lair timing though it is hard for them to know if it is an all-in like Destiny's rush or a mutas rush like you and I do.
Hmm not sure about the 3 roach wallin.
You're showing that you have at least a roach warren up. It could be a roach sling allin.
Also 3 roaches = 3 larva and 225/75 early on + 150 for roach warren. While spines are 0 larva and deal more dmg/cost. It will have a significant impact on your eco and I don't think you'll be able to hit the right timings.
Also showing those roaches will stop them from going pure hydras for obvious reasons, which you really want them to make.
On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything.
That's exactly what's not the case t_t
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Can you post some replays on A) a different map and B) vs an actual aggressive opponent. Personally don't see this being viable as anyone who's ever done this dies badly to ling/bane aggression
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Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining mid-game map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. At this point you are just closing your eyes and hoping to god it works though.
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On May 28 2011 20:42 Unfeared wrote:
That's exactly what's not the case t_t
Top notch reply. Scouting this build means you know you're going to be safe for a very long time, especially with you having slings out on the map. After a hatch at 21, you add spores, queens, connect creep (obviously), and this will be very efficient against mutas and shut them down in general. This is all happening while you're safely power droning, and then, adding a roach warren, hydralisk den, and evolution chamber, you go for a +1 timing attack with roach/hydra, where you will simply crush anyone going for this build. Map control is something you get very late and really can't use to your advantage.
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On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way.
I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off.
But banelings are indeed a threat. It comes down to the map and your simcity. It's not difficult to hold off banelings off with 1 or 2 queens and an extra evo + spines.
I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here.
On May 28 2011 20:50 elitesniper420 wrote:Top notch reply. Scouting this build means you know you're going to be safe for a very long time, especially with you having slings out on the map. After a hatch at 21, you add spores, queens, connect creep (obviously), and this will be very efficient against mutas and shut them down in general. This is all happening while you're safely power droning, and then, adding a roach warren, hydralisk den, and evolution chamber, you go for a +1 timing attack with roach/hydra, where you will simply crush anyone going for this build. Map control is something you get very late and really can't use to your advantage.
You're saying that you can have speedlings on the map + adding spores + queens + expanding + hydras + roach + ranged +1 upgrade and still be ahead?
Watch the replays please.
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On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything.
1) When you see a lair the opponent may think that your going infestor rush, its reasonable ling infestor rush? Why not.
2) Read the OP he mentions plenty about the economy being the same as your opponents or similar later on
3) Your rushing 5 mutas really? how will they be too squishy to kill overlords all around the map and drones and queens (Case that the opponents didn't get any anti air)
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
Tried on ladder, worked well, all my opponenet had was spores and lings, nice build!
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On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity).
I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base).
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On May 28 2011 20:42 Unfeared wrote:
You're saying that you can have speedlings on the map + adding spores + queens + expanding + hydras + roach + ranged +1 upgrade and still be ahead?
Watch the replays please.
Actually I am saying that. Your Roach/Hydra replay was a horrible example. Even though he had an extra base you were ahead by 10 drones the entire game. When 2 players are power droning, and one has an expansion, guess which one will come out ahead? That's exactly what he didn't do. By the time you have mutas out you could be nearing saturation and the build is very easy to scout. A bad player will "assume" you're going infestors, but anyone who knows how to play the game is going to consider every option. At 9 minutes you get your 5 mutas out, and even with his horrible economy he has more than enough to protect it. All those lings he wasted could have easily been drones, and he could have made a lot less than 3 spore crawlers at each base to shut down your mutas. By 9 minutes you can be nearing full saturation, start your evolution chamber, then go and kill you with +1.
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On May 28 2011 20:53 SEA_GenesiS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything. 1) When you see a lair the opponent may think that your going infestor rush, its reasonable ling infestor rush? Why not. 2) Read the OP he mentions plenty about the economy being the same as your opponents or similar later on 3) Your rushing 5 mutas really? how will they be too squishy to kill overlords all around the map and drones and queens (Case that the opponents didn't get any anti air)
1) Except nothing can stop his opponent from simply scouting the spire.
2) How is letting your opponent know that he can drone freely while you yourself spends tons of money of spines having a "similar economy"? It's outright worse. Speed = 100/100, 3 spines = 300 minerals and 3 drones. I'm assuming both players build 4 lings for scouting.
3) Have to agree here, mutas, if allowed to get them, will always be able to kill overlords with impunity.
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On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base).
That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco.
My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead.
It IS a build that relies on your opponent to overreact or mismacro. That's why it's not recommended to use it in a bo3.
If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen.
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On May 28 2011 21:06 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:53 SEA_GenesiS wrote:On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything. 1) When you see a lair the opponent may think that your going infestor rush, its reasonable ling infestor rush? Why not. 2) Read the OP he mentions plenty about the economy being the same as your opponents or similar later on 3) Your rushing 5 mutas really? how will they be too squishy to kill overlords all around the map and drones and queens (Case that the opponents didn't get any anti air) 1) Except nothing can stop his opponent from simply scouting the spire. 2) How is letting your opponent know that he can drone freely while you yourself spends tons of money of spines having a "similar economy"? It's outright worse. Speed = 200 minerals, 3 spines = 300 minerals and 3 drones. I'm assuming both players build 4 lings for scouting. 3) Have to agree here, mutas, if allowed to get them, will always be able to kill overlords with impunity.
For 3 I meant dealing with actual units, 5 mutas will not be a big help in fighting off future attacks.
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On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow.
Edit: There's a reason the 3 super fast roach rush +speedling all in against toss(wzp build i believe it's called) dropped off of the face of the earth after just a few weeks. It was easily scouted and dealt with. Once someone figures out a sure fire way of busting your build(because there is one, if you give your opponent map hack, there's always a way) it will be all over.
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On May 28 2011 21:11 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow.
If he does that he will be slower + behind since spores on my side will block that out.
I really can't talk too much about that because I've never seen it before. But as it is now, I actually want the opponent to scout my spire and build an evo and spores + queens, stopping him from going for his planned build.
wzp is still used in close positions and hard to stop. It was because of the sentry build time buff Protosses were able to stop it.
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On May 28 2011 21:15 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:11 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow. If he does that he will be slower + behind since spores on my side will block that out. I really can't talk too much about that because I've never seen it before. But as it is now, I actually want the opponent to scout my spire and build an evo and spores + queens, stopping him from going for his planned build. wzp is still used in close positions and hard to stop. It was because of the sentry build time buff Protosses were able to stop it. No? It was because people realized the only thing they had to do was scout it. There were several different ways in the thread of stopping it well before the patch.
I still don't see how you can defend the fact that you are completely in the dark except what your overlords can tell you and still think that you can't be busted(or out-econ'd). All it takes is for someone to sit down and go through your play until they find a weakness to exploit(and there will be one, there always is if you're blind and your opponent sees your every move). Something as simple as having 6 lings at your ramp might be enough, or building another queen(although that might screw up your lair timing I suppose) but just staying completely passive after your first ling scout doesn't sound very good to me.
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On May 28 2011 21:29 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:15 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:11 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow. If he does that he will be slower + behind since spores on my side will block that out. I really can't talk too much about that because I've never seen it before. But as it is now, I actually want the opponent to scout my spire and build an evo and spores + queens, stopping him from going for his planned build. wzp is still used in close positions and hard to stop. It was because of the sentry build time buff Protosses were able to stop it. No? It was because people realized the only thing they had to do was scout it. There were several different ways in the thread of stopping it well before the patch. I still don't see how you can defend the fact that you are completely in the dark except what your overlords can tell you and still think that you can't be busted(or out-econ'd). All it takes is for someone to sit down and go through your play until they find a weakness to exploit(and there will be one, there always is if you're blind and your opponent sees your every move). Something as simple as having 6 lings at your ramp to deny at least "high econ" scouting might be enough, but just staying completely passive after your first ling scout doesn't sound very good to me.
Ofcourse nothing is unbeatable. But what exploit would that be? Like I said, being scouted is a part of the build.
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Will have to give this a go, are you winning the majority of your games using it? In text it should work, but it's very different once online
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On May 28 2011 20:10 Unfeared wrote:
The only weakness of this build is sling bling allins.
Yeah, I mean, what are the chances that someone would do a sling/bling all in in a zvz match.
Talk about cutting yourself with occam's razor.
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None of these replays work for me, the links are all broken. Anyone else having this problem? I'm interested in seeing this in action.
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When i go for muta expo I prefer doing a double queen block w/ spine behind it. It can withstand a great deal of pressure if u manage yur queen energy right.
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I like grabbing mutas only after going with the Spanishiwa build in ZvZ. Which is incredibly rare for me now.
But I still can't buy into going mutas in ZvZ. Roaches can just kill so much stuff so quickly that it makes it quite difficult to truly "go" mutalisks.
It is funny though when you are maxed, barely win a battle and then make 18 mutalisks with your bank and he has nothing but roaches. Of course, it's not funny when it happens to you.
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On May 29 2011 04:27 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:10 Unfeared wrote:
The only weakness of this build is sling bling allins.
Yeah, I mean, what are the chances that someone would do a sling/bling all in in a zvz match. Talk about cutting yourself with occam's razor.
It's not gonna be a weakness soon. A friend and me refining the build vs banelings and it's been working really well. Making the screens and replays now.
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I'm confused as to how 2-4 speedlings are supposed to hold off a speedling OR a sling/bling all in. This sounds a lot like an incredibly risky attempt to force muta play into the metagame.
Let me say it from my point of view. I see a few lings. I make more than he has. I check his base and see he has nothing but spine crawlers and he's morphing a lair. Maybe I see he doesn't have a warren, maybe I don't. Either way, I'm going to make 30 speedlings and beat this build.
This works perfectly on ladder and tournaments (bo1, risky to try this more than once on the same opponent.).
This relys too much on your opponent never scouting you and too little on safety.. Thats not a very solid.
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Muta plays are really good on maps like taldarim, and typhoon. Although I prefer sling expo when going muta, because that way you force your opponent to make defense and they cant just power drone. A lot of people will base race you though once mutas come out but a strong number of lings and spines holds it, you may have to pull drones tho...
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On May 29 2011 05:06 Probe1 wrote:I'm confused as to how 2-4 speedlings are supposed to hold off a speedling OR a sling/bling all in. This sounds a lot like an incredibly risky attempt to force muta play into the metagame. Let me say it from my point of view. I see a few lings. I make more than he has. I check his base and see he has nothing but spine crawlers and he's morphing a lair. Maybe I see he doesn't have a warren, maybe I don't. Either way, I'm going to make 30 speedlings and beat this build. Show nested quote +This works perfectly on ladder and tournaments (bo1, risky to try this more than once on the same opponent.). This relys too much on your opponent never scouting you and too little on safety.. Thats not a very solid.
30 blocked speedlings vs 2-3 spines doesn't work very well.
Anyway, replays going up as soon as gamereplays.com gets back online. Gotta adjust the build now too.
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I'd just like to say that I feel this build is now much stronger with the variation to deny scouting via the use of lings and a spine at the ramp. It still gives up map control in that you are completely in the dark as to what your opponent is doing until mutas get out, but on the other hand so is your opponent, so they can't play super greedy.
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WZP Died well before the most recent patch.
And I don't buy this.
Your spire will be scouted in time for them to get their overlords back to their base and have spores and multiple queens up. You say this is what you want to happen, I say Mutalisks in ZvZ are useless without being a surprise.
You have now spent 200/200 + 500/500 on a bunch of flying paper planes that do no damage. You claim you will be ahead in upgrades, but if your opponent is following a basic ZvZ build order, they will have +1 missile before or around the same time as you. They will also be going Infestors, which will completely shut down your Mutalisk play. If they just keep their infestors near spores and queens you won't be able to snipe anything.
All they have to do is add a Hydra Den, not overbuild Hydralisks, and you lose. You claim you will instantly catch up in econ as soon as you transfer your drones to your natural, I say you will be well behind in resources mined. If your opponent simply goes roaches and gets burrow (normal ZvZ) you now have to spend another 100 gas on an overseer just to take your natural expansion.
It is not only bad against 1 base Hydra or fast infestors, it is bad against Standard ZvZ at a competent level. You are relying on your opponent to be incompetent.
If you do the "deny scouting" build, any competent zerg will know you are either going:
a. Mutalisks or
b. Burrowed roach rush
Spores counter both of these similar to a protoss who you know is either going DTs or Void Rays, either way they are screwed if you put a spore in each mineral line and in front of each hatch while building up a meaningful army in case of a roach attack (similar to if you are unsure if the protoss is going for a delayed 4 gate or expo cancel 4 gate.)
Relying on incompetence is a sure way to hit a plateau.
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I don't really like this build because it has alot of problems, I'm not against mutas in ZvZ though, I think they can be pretty good(Nestea even use them). Against a half-decently played hatch first you will be too far behind in econ to win. You say that you get equal amount of drone and income when you transfer them to the expansion and this is just not true. Hatch first has so much more larva with 2hatches and 2 queens, and the income will be greater once your reach 16+drones on minerals, and you can drone so easily against your build because even just speedlings will see everthing from tech to what you do with your larva.
As for the spines if you leave them in the mineral line your opponent will know your every move for a cheap price of some lings, and if you leave them at the ramp you will run a big risk of ling runbys, or just a roach/ling bust. Most of the times you will also need to decide if you want a second queen before lair or not before you actually can scout if you need it. Should you go for a second queen you will be able to deny scouting better but your lair will be significantly slowed and you'll just keep oversaturation your base.
As said before there are also very few options from a fast lair tech and by not opening roach you pretty much eliminate the threat of some roach push with burrow+speed. In conclusion I think this build is a no-go against a hatch first opening and against a gas/pool I would say a roach -> mutas would be a better choice.
I watched the replayes and to me it seems like you played your build pretty good while your opponent just failed his macro, e.g. the destiny's push game I think your opponent would have been ahead if got those injects down and put guys back on gas.
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Your opponents were bad, really bad. I think it may be more viable if you double queen block
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there has been a couple of zvz that my opponent went muta fast expand while i went for infestors.
Yea Infestors vs mutas infestors will always come on top. 4 infestors can murder any amount of clumped up mutalisks. I wouldn't really go for mutas in any zvz
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I think moon vs slush just showed that you can't go muta. You just can't even if you put baneling mines at your ramp.
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I actually like getting 6 Mutas to provoke a Hydra response and immediately transition into upgraded Sling/Bling along with any surviving roaches to mop up the Hydras and the drones/crawlers on my next ground push
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How exactly do you think that this build holds a roach ling all in?
Mutas take years to kill roaches and lings.
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What if he runs the lings into your mineral line and hits hold position?
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early larvae count is the biggest problem I can see with this type of build. Even worse are the consequences of a good roach/infestor mid game, while you'd be focus'd on ling/muta.
One other possible weakness is that you have to out expo your opponent wants you start to add on mutas with this strategy, otherwise the roach/infestor army becomes dramatically superior since stacking mutas would have SEVERE consequences.
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Accidently quoted myself below in a second edit...sorry!
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On June 05 2011 18:09 Dubpace wrote:
There is no way this is a good build against competent players. The only way this works is if your opponent is really stupid and doesn't know how to respond correctly.
I promise I will have 4+ queens, full saturation and loss of no overlords by the time YOUR expansion goes up. There is no way this will work. You sacrifice too much map control and economy for an easily scoutable and counterable build.
Edit: And how exactly are you planning on defending that natural expansion from not getting constantly denied? Mutas won't do it, and you shouldn't have creep out there to get your spines over there. Even if you do it's too easy to exploit spine position to kill the hatch anyways. There are a lot of holes in this build >.>
Edit2: Also even if somehow they let you take your natural for free, and you have 45-50 drones off of one base, your army will be so weak compared to somebody that didn't open like this. Remember: 5 mutalisks=500 gas. 4 roaches=100 gas so you are in theory 20 roaches behind in production.
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Yeah mutalisk expand is just too vulnerable imo.
On the other hand,I typically go 15 hatch 14 pool and roach warren ASAP. Build enough for defense against blings and such, drone up, get lair and then get some 10ish mutas just to suprise, harrass and contain his ass.
Works wonders, although vulnerable if he decides to do a timing push before you can get a big amount of infestors out
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So you've scouted an early baneling nest. This is what you've got to do to take a guaranteed win:
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Lol. Helpful :/ Yeah I really don't understand how you expect to survive early game with this, completely forgetting that mutas are so hard countered in mid game by hydras or fungal
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On June 05 2011 18:09 Dubpace wrote:
There is no way this is a good build against competent players. The only way this works is if your opponent is really stupid and doesn't know how to respond correctly.
I promise I will have 4+ queens, full saturation and loss of no overlords by the time YOUR expansion goes up. There is no way this will work. You sacrifice too much map control and economy for an easily scoutable and counterable build.
Edit: And how exactly are you planning on defending that natural expansion from not getting constantly denied? Mutas won't do it, and you shouldn't have creep out there to get your spines over there. Even if you do it's too easy to exploit spine position to kill the hatch anyways. There are a lot of holes in this build >.>
Edit2: Also even if somehow they let you take your natural for free, and you have 45-50 drones off of one base, your army will be so weak compared to somebody that didn't open like this. Remember: 5 mutalisks=500 gas. 4 roaches=100 gas so you are in theory 20 roaches behind in production.
Are you saying all the people he beat in his replays are really stupid? (Hint: Even smart players make bad decisions. It happens.)
As much as I enjoy pouncing on people proposing a new strategy, I gotta give Unfeared some credit for this build.
I can't say I understand how or why (or whether) it works when done properly. I tried it a few times because it looked entirely stupid on paper, but for some reason I actually won most of the games I tried it in -- I lost once, but that was just bad mid/late-game play; I entered the mid-game with an advantage.
So yeah, diamond/low master players will almost always react in the wrong way, and after actually trying it, I do believe that it can work in mid/high masters (and yes, nobody says you can't hard-counter this).
What I found by far the most impressive about all the games was just how impenetrable a sim city with 1-2 spine crawlers and 1-2 queens is to mass ling. The chokes make it so easy to defend with a queen and maybe a few drones while the spine crawlers do the rest.
Unfeared, could you please update the OP with more replays and your comments on dealing with banelings?
Also, as a response to Dubspace:
Congratulations, you found a very good response to this build. Many others have too. This does not mean the build is useless: What you suggested is, based on practical experience, not obvious to most zerg players. Yes, there are holes in this build, and nobody claimed the opposite. From the OP: "risky to try this more than once on the same opponent".
As for this:
Edit2: Also even if somehow they let you take your natural for free, and you have 45-50 drones off of one base, your army will be so weak compared to somebody that didn't open like this. Remember: 5 mutalisks=500 gas. 4 roaches=100 gas so you are in theory 20 roaches behind in production.
Yes, your army *will* be very weak, and that's why you need the spotting overlords and the roaming mutas to keep him in check. I'm not saying it's enough, but the OP has explicitly talked about this.
Also, your "in theory" calculation doesn't make much sense. I could turn the tables and say "Remember: 5 mutalisks = 500 minerals. 7 roaches = 525 minerals so you are in theory 7 roaches behind", or I could count larvae/supply instead and then it's 5 roaches. It's not that simple.
Clearly 20 roaches will beat 2 spine crawlers defending with 4 mutas, but I don't see how this is a useful comparison (why 20?).
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3 roaches = 3 larva and 225/75 early on + 150 for roach warren. While spines are 0 larva and deal more dmg/cost.
You're forgetting spine crawlers use up a drone which is 50 min & 1 larva. Plus you're getting a roach warren anyways. Wouldn't it make more since to use it for defense and eliminate the spines all together? Plus I deny ling scouting and can use those 3 roaches to fight with later in the game.
On a side note, Day[9] analyzed a top tier Korean ZvZ game with 9 Pool into double queen block vs Muta expand opening. Very interesting.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-250-top-korean-zvz-4721433
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This is a build that has already been covered (albeit with a better build order) by Day9 in one of his ZvZ dailies from awhile ago. In this version, you're basically advocating two spines, LETTING YOUR OPPONENT SEE YOUR FUCKING BUILD and not even blocking your ramp with roaches or queens. That is simply assured failure. This will simply lose to any kind of two-base speedling/baneling all-in.
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On May 28 2011 20:42 Unfeared wrote:
You're showing that you have at least a roach warren up. It could be a roach sling allin.
Also 3 roaches = 3 larva and 225/75 early on + 150 for roach warren. While spines are 0 larva and deal more dmg/cost. It will have a significant impact on your eco and I don't think you'll be able to hit the right timings.
I like this build but the math is off
Buildings cost one drone
Which is 50min and one larva
So it's
3roach: 225/50 + 150 + 50 = 425/50 + 4larvae
Each Spine: 100 + 50 + 1 larva
Spines indirectly (or directly w/e) cost larvae
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I still don't agree that this is a winner. I've faced it a few times since posting my thoughts and there are two ways it plays out.
I don't scout at the right moment. He expands without showing his mutas and makes a ball of 20 and wins because I did not even remotely deserve to win.
I do scout and see him doing that. I instantly transition into roach ling all in while dropping a hydra den. I send a single round of reinforcement lings and pump pure hydralisks. I win because 5 mutas get trounced by 24 roaches and so many zerglings with burrow.
I've just never seen this put anyone ahead. It might cost me overlords and give up map control but only for the time a hydra den takes. Then we're best case scenario pretty even and I can defend a third or flat out walk in and kill you.
I dunno :\ I'd love to be convinced of this, I don't like the mass roach then make infestors way either but I want to win more.
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On June 07 2011 12:06 Dellward wrote:
This is a build that has already been covered (albeit with a better build order) by Day9 in one of his ZvZ dailies from awhile ago. In this version, you're basically advocating two spines, LETTING YOUR OPPONENT SEE YOUR FUCKING BUILD and not even blocking your ramp with roaches or queens. That is simply assured failure. This will simply lose to any kind of two-base speedling/baneling all-in.
Why do people get so angry if they don't even read the OP?
Did you read the OP? Letting your opponent see the build is intentional. Also, it is absolutely not true that you will lose to "any kind of two-base speedling/baneling all-in", I've held off many of those. When I did lose it was to roaches, not speedling/baneling. (I'm not saying you'll hold off every speedling/baneling attack, but it's not true that you'll "lose to any kind" of them.)
Edit: Also, which daily was that? I'd be interested in the link, sounds fun. I've been doing some of the 9pool double queen block, expand into fast +1 speed roaches on certain maps, and that's great fun. I noticed that if you're at least even army-wise, a tech switch to mutas right after the first roach baiting (you have roach speed before your opponent) is hugely effective, since that's a timing where the opponent is blind, it's not safe for him to push out (your roaches are faster), and few people expect a muta switch after speed roaches. But even then you only get 5-6 mutas to snipe queens etc., then you need to mass ground units again to hold the counter-push. But that's another thread entirely =)
On June 07 2011 16:51 Probe1 wrote:
I still don't agree that this is a winner. I've faced it a few times since posting my thoughts and there are two ways it plays out.
I don't scout at the right moment. He expands without showing his mutas and makes a ball of 20 and wins because I did not even remotely deserve to win.
I do scout and see him doing that. I instantly transition into roach ling all in while dropping a hydra den. I send a single round of reinforcement lings and pump pure hydralisks. I win because 5 mutas get trounced by 24 roaches and so many zerglings with burrow.
I've just never seen this put anyone ahead. It might cost me overlords and give up map control but only for the time a hydra den takes. Then we're best case scenario pretty even and I can defend a third or flat out walk in and kill you.
I dunno :\ I'd love to be convinced of this, I don't like the mass roach then make infestors way either but I want to win more.
Going for a huge ball of muta is something completely different from this build. I don't see how this opening allows you to get 20 mutas before the opponent is close to 200/200, since you're only on 2 gas for ages.
You say "you've never seen this put anyone ahead" -- have you actually watched OP's replays and/or tried it yourself? It sounds like you've never actually seen this build in general :-)
I tried it myself and was very surprised by how it worked out. I don't think it's anything as solid as roach/infestor, but it sure made for very amusing games, and surprisingly enough, I had a good win rate. (I do not expect this to work if it's commonly used, and I only used it on maps which seem suitable, i.e., stuff like typhon peaks -- as the OP mentioned).
Like the OP said, this is *not* the kind of build you'd want to use repeatedly against the same opponent, and it can be held off quite well, nobody disputes that. It's surprisingly strong against early speedling/baneling all-ins, and it can certainly throw off your opponent, but a strong (not too early) roach attack can surely beat it; as can a more passive FE into 4 queens and 2-3 spores into a huge roach/hydra ball, etc.
I don't get why people keep making comments that aren't relevant to this thread. This is not about speedling expand into mutas, there's plenty of threads about that -- and the OP never claimed that this was a strong "standard" opener.
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EPT
