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Intro:
Most people see ZvZ as a boring matchup revolting around sling bling/roach rushing, this is usually true and it will feel as if ZvZ comes down to "luck".
Mutalisk openers are very underused in the ZvZ matchup while they aren't bad at all.
This build will give you:
-complete mapcontrol + ability to snipe overlords and even drones
-the ability to deflect early attacks such as the "unstoppable Destiny build" and other timing attacks that come around 7-9 minutes.
-an opportunity to safely expand while the opponent is in the dark.
-the ability to scout what the opponent is doing/what kind of army he has. In ZvZ this is difficult before overseer tech.
-Mutalisks will force the enemy to create spores and/or extra queens and give up his mapcontrol.
-an upgrade lead because of the early evo
-safe transition into macro ZvZ <- fun!
Now what if he goes hatch first and your mutalisks don't kill any drones?
Your mutalisks will ALWAYS deal damage.
He will have to buy at least 4 spores and extra queens + evo chamber early on (500ish minerals). You can snipe overlords spread around the map for 100minerals each and supply blocking him. If he's overconfident and think he can bust you with roaches, you will be able to kill the roaches and nullify his attack costing him alot of larva and resources.
Will you not be behind on economy if he's on 2 base and you're on 1 base?
No, you will rely on your simcity and spines to defend all of his early units. Most importantly, you will be overdroning on 1 base while your natural expansion is building. Once your expansion pops, you will have perfect 2 base saturation
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/tl1o.png/
Your opponent will be droning after his expansion goes up. All you have to do is transfer the drones you made in the 1basing phase to your natural and you're ahead/equal on eco. You can start pumping out units while he's busy droning and kill him in this timeframe. OR you can play it safe and take a 3rd.
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/tl2s.png/
When should you use this?
This works perfectly on ladder and tournaments (bo1, risky to try this more than once on the same opponent.). Medium-Large maps preferred to hold off any kind of roach pressure. Smaller maps will mean that you have to build more spines to defend until your mutas are out. The only weakness of this build is sling bling allins. You will need very good simcity building placement and 1/2 queens to block off entrances for the blings. It's possible to hold off even 2 base sling bling allins with proper placements.
Since you need a good simcity building placements, maps with open mineral lines are not recommended vs sling bling players
These maps are:
Testbug <big no
Terminus
Metalopolis is risky but possible.
This is how you want your simcity to be vs sling bling
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/tl3.png/
You might want to add an extra queen to block off the left side if it's a big bling allin.
As you can see I've added an early evo chamber just to block. This is only if you scout/expect sling/bling allins.
The buildorder:
Note: the amount of spines vary from game to game. You will need to scout with your overlord/zerglings and respond accordingly. You may also get the evo chamber earlier or an additional queen. Do all it takes to survive until your mutas pop.
+ Show Spoiler +
9 OL
14 Pool
15 Gas (3 drones)
15 OL
100% Pool - Queen + 1-2 pairs of lings to scout for bling nest
If you scout bling nest go to the next section
20-23 Spine
100% Queen - Lair + 2nd gas(3 drones)
26 OL
26 Optional spine
100% lair - spire + 2nd queen
34 2x OL
34 Evo chamber
34 5 mutalisks
34 Expand
100% evo +1 ranged
From here on pump 1 more round of drones then make a roach warren
Roach warren 100% - Speed upgrade
Hatch 100% transfer 18-22 drones and make 3rd gas
Now you can decide to drone to full saturation or switch to roach mode and kill him.
If you scout little defence or if his allins have failed to deal any dmg, go roach mode.
Variation to deny scouting:
+ Show Spoiler +Thank you sclol!Instead of simcitying at your mineral line, you build your spines at the ramp, denying any scouting with 4 lings and a spine. Once your lair finishes, you build an additional queen to help block in case of sling/bling. The 2nd queen does NOT cut eco. The additional lings however, do. + Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/tl6a.png
Help! banelings!:
+ Show Spoiler +So you've scouted an early baneling nest. This is what you've got to do to take a guaranteed win:
-----
Execution:
You will need to spread your overlords in a line to his base to see what he's throwing at you. These overlords will also play a big role when you decide to attack. You can use the spew creep ability to make a quick creep highway allowing your roaches to reach the enemy's base even quicker.
With your mutas you will defend attacks, kill OLs and snipe drones/queens.
Usually you won't be able to snipe drones unless he's not scouted it.
Remember the positions of his early scouting OLs and try to snipe them. Keep flying past his natural ramp to see what army he has and how big his army is.
If you feel that your army is bigger than his, go attack him.
It is very important that you don't miss ANY larva injects. You have about a 120 second time frame where you can attack and where your opponent has minimal units.
Try to get a good concave and keep your mutas out of spore fire.
If he has only hydras, try surrounding the hydras with your roaches and they will die in no-time.
Your best time frame to attack/expand
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/tl5.png/
He will have this:
+ Show Spoiler +http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/tl4.png/
Good against:
-Destinys "unstoppable ZvZ" (free win for you)
-5RR/7RR/8RR since you have the spines.
-Hydra responses(He will not have enough resources for roaches and pure hydras will die to your roaches)
-Any standard play will put you to equal eco but you will have map control with mutas.
-Quick 3rd
Difficult but still good against:
-2 base sling/bling allin. (Comes down on the map and the simcity you have)
Bad against:
-1 base hydra(lolwut)
-Infestor rush(You will have equal eco but you'll also have map control)
Possible counters:
Many spines and queens. (Spanishiwa?)
If you scout this you can take a 3rd and 4th easily because you can deny his 3rd with mutas. He will need mobile AA to move out.
Replays:
Top master league zerg responded with infestors but couldn't get them out in time.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs Advisory z33k thursday 8 game 1.SC2Replay
Destiny's epic fail.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs FOXDisloK Late night cup 42.SC2Replay
Top master zerg responding with roach hydra(bad choice because you will fall behind)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs Larsson z33k #8.SC2Replay
Destiny's epic fail.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44932/ZvZ FeareD vs Merlon z33k thursday 8 game 1.SC2Replay
More replays of sling/bling incoming
Feedback appreciated and I'll try to answer questions 
Ingame EU uvFeareD.389 US GrackyChan.504
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This was the only ZvZ strategy I used on the ladder for awhile. I hated it if I ever had to play the same person back to back though.
I prefer to use Day[9]'s strategy with roaches to defend in lieu of spines:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Tech_with_Roaches_(vs._Zerg)
If I see hatch first I do a 3 roach wall and have enough gas & min once spire is done for 4-5 mutas. I typically over saturate my main so once my expo is finished I have an equal drone count with higher tech and map control. Just a smaller army but an army that they can't attack 
I think this build would be bad against someone that does a spanishiwa build with 1-2 spores at each base around 6 min mark. If you deny them scouting of your lair timing though it is hard for them to know if it is an all-in like Destiny's rush or a mutas rush like you and I do.
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tried it worked well but i feel like a second queen when lair finished would be pretty big
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4 Posts
what do you do if your oppenents go also mutas?Do you stick with muta production or do you directly get infestors?
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First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything.
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On May 28 2011 20:35 JadedKnight wrote:This was the only ZvZ strategy I used on the ladder for awhile. I hated it if I ever had to play the same person back to back though. I prefer to use Day[9]'s strategy with roaches to defend in lieu of spines: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Tech_with_Roaches_(vs._Zerg)If I see hatch first I do a 3 roach wall and have enough gas & min once spire is done for 4-5 mutas. I typically over saturate my main so once my expo is finished I have an equal drone count with higher tech and map control. Just a smaller army but an army that they can't attack I think this build would be bad against someone that does a spanishiwa build with 1-2 spores at each base around 6 min mark. If you deny them scouting of your lair timing though it is hard for them to know if it is an all-in like Destiny's rush or a mutas rush like you and I do.
Hmm not sure about the 3 roach wallin.
You're showing that you have at least a roach warren up. It could be a roach sling allin.
Also 3 roaches = 3 larva and 225/75 early on + 150 for roach warren. While spines are 0 larva and deal more dmg/cost. It will have a significant impact on your eco and I don't think you'll be able to hit the right timings.
Also showing those roaches will stop them from going pure hydras for obvious reasons, which you really want them to make.
On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything.
That's exactly what's not the case t_t
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Can you post some replays on A) a different map and B) vs an actual aggressive opponent. Personally don't see this being viable as anyone who's ever done this dies badly to ling/bane aggression
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Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining mid-game map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. At this point you are just closing your eyes and hoping to god it works though.
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On May 28 2011 20:42 Unfeared wrote:
That's exactly what's not the case t_t
Top notch reply. Scouting this build means you know you're going to be safe for a very long time, especially with you having slings out on the map. After a hatch at 21, you add spores, queens, connect creep (obviously), and this will be very efficient against mutas and shut them down in general. This is all happening while you're safely power droning, and then, adding a roach warren, hydralisk den, and evolution chamber, you go for a +1 timing attack with roach/hydra, where you will simply crush anyone going for this build. Map control is something you get very late and really can't use to your advantage.
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On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way.
I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off.
But banelings are indeed a threat. It comes down to the map and your simcity. It's not difficult to hold off banelings off with 1 or 2 queens and an extra evo + spines.
I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here.
On May 28 2011 20:50 elitesniper420 wrote:Top notch reply. Scouting this build means you know you're going to be safe for a very long time, especially with you having slings out on the map. After a hatch at 21, you add spores, queens, connect creep (obviously), and this will be very efficient against mutas and shut them down in general. This is all happening while you're safely power droning, and then, adding a roach warren, hydralisk den, and evolution chamber, you go for a +1 timing attack with roach/hydra, where you will simply crush anyone going for this build. Map control is something you get very late and really can't use to your advantage.
You're saying that you can have speedlings on the map + adding spores + queens + expanding + hydras + roach + ranged +1 upgrade and still be ahead?
Watch the replays please.
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On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything.
1) When you see a lair the opponent may think that your going infestor rush, its reasonable ling infestor rush? Why not.
2) Read the OP he mentions plenty about the economy being the same as your opponents or similar later on
3) Your rushing 5 mutas really? how will they be too squishy to kill overlords all around the map and drones and queens (Case that the opponents didn't get any anti air)
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51433 Posts
Tried on ladder, worked well, all my opponenet had was spores and lings, nice build!
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On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity).
I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base).
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On May 28 2011 20:42 Unfeared wrote:
You're saying that you can have speedlings on the map + adding spores + queens + expanding + hydras + roach + ranged +1 upgrade and still be ahead?
Watch the replays please.
Actually I am saying that. Your Roach/Hydra replay was a horrible example. Even though he had an extra base you were ahead by 10 drones the entire game. When 2 players are power droning, and one has an expansion, guess which one will come out ahead? That's exactly what he didn't do. By the time you have mutas out you could be nearing saturation and the build is very easy to scout. A bad player will "assume" you're going infestors, but anyone who knows how to play the game is going to consider every option. At 9 minutes you get your 5 mutas out, and even with his horrible economy he has more than enough to protect it. All those lings he wasted could have easily been drones, and he could have made a lot less than 3 spore crawlers at each base to shut down your mutas. By 9 minutes you can be nearing full saturation, start your evolution chamber, then go and kill you with +1.
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On May 28 2011 20:53 SEA_GenesiS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything. 1) When you see a lair the opponent may think that your going infestor rush, its reasonable ling infestor rush? Why not. 2) Read the OP he mentions plenty about the economy being the same as your opponents or similar later on 3) Your rushing 5 mutas really? how will they be too squishy to kill overlords all around the map and drones and queens (Case that the opponents didn't get any anti air)
1) Except nothing can stop his opponent from simply scouting the spire.
2) How is letting your opponent know that he can drone freely while you yourself spends tons of money of spines having a "similar economy"? It's outright worse. Speed = 100/100, 3 spines = 300 minerals and 3 drones. I'm assuming both players build 4 lings for scouting.
3) Have to agree here, mutas, if allowed to get them, will always be able to kill overlords with impunity.
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On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base).
That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco.
My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead.
It IS a build that relies on your opponent to overreact or mismacro. That's why it's not recommended to use it in a bo3.
If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen.
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On May 28 2011 21:06 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:53 SEA_GenesiS wrote:On May 28 2011 20:41 elitesniper420 wrote:
First of all, scouting the lair will make you instantly see you're going Mutalisks, because there is no roach warren. Second, your opponent will have a huge economic lead. There is no good side to this build, you lose map control when it matters (since you're not making slings), and your mutas will be too squishy to deal with anything. 1) When you see a lair the opponent may think that your going infestor rush, its reasonable ling infestor rush? Why not. 2) Read the OP he mentions plenty about the economy being the same as your opponents or similar later on 3) Your rushing 5 mutas really? how will they be too squishy to kill overlords all around the map and drones and queens (Case that the opponents didn't get any anti air) 1) Except nothing can stop his opponent from simply scouting the spire. 2) How is letting your opponent know that he can drone freely while you yourself spends tons of money of spines having a "similar economy"? It's outright worse. Speed = 200 minerals, 3 spines = 300 minerals and 3 drones. I'm assuming both players build 4 lings for scouting. 3) Have to agree here, mutas, if allowed to get them, will always be able to kill overlords with impunity.
For 3 I meant dealing with actual units, 5 mutas will not be a big help in fighting off future attacks.
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On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow.
Edit: There's a reason the 3 super fast roach rush +speedling all in against toss(wzp build i believe it's called) dropped off of the face of the earth after just a few weeks. It was easily scouted and dealt with. Once someone figures out a sure fire way of busting your build(because there is one, if you give your opponent map hack, there's always a way) it will be all over.
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On May 28 2011 21:11 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow.
If he does that he will be slower + behind since spores on my side will block that out.
I really can't talk too much about that because I've never seen it before. But as it is now, I actually want the opponent to scout my spire and build an evo and spores + queens, stopping him from going for his planned build.
wzp is still used in close positions and hard to stop. It was because of the sentry build time buff Protosses were able to stop it.
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On May 28 2011 21:15 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:11 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow. If he does that he will be slower + behind since spores on my side will block that out. I really can't talk too much about that because I've never seen it before. But as it is now, I actually want the opponent to scout my spire and build an evo and spores + queens, stopping him from going for his planned build. wzp is still used in close positions and hard to stop. It was because of the sentry build time buff Protosses were able to stop it. No? It was because people realized the only thing they had to do was scout it. There were several different ways in the thread of stopping it well before the patch.
I still don't see how you can defend the fact that you are completely in the dark except what your overlords can tell you and still think that you can't be busted(or out-econ'd). All it takes is for someone to sit down and go through your play until they find a weakness to exploit(and there will be one, there always is if you're blind and your opponent sees your every move). Something as simple as having 6 lings at your ramp might be enough, or building another queen(although that might screw up your lair timing I suppose) but just staying completely passive after your first ling scout doesn't sound very good to me.
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EPT
