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Hello fellow liquipedians, after watching todays match between MKP and Squirtle I was amazed by MKPs first 2 ghost push, I managed to get hold of the build order from MrCon in the LR thread so I decided to post it here to get some discussion going about it;
- What could counter it?
- Could there be improvements to the build?
- Is it safe to use or does it have any major holes?
- Is there any unit that you should immediately push back if you see?
- Transitioning afterwards
Here's the build order (All credit on the finding of the build order goes to MrCon, thank you so much!):
After standard depot rax rine OC, he fast 2nd depot to wall quickly.
Non stop rines/scv
20 CC
22 2 more rax
24 take 2 gas
25 depot
1 techlab when the 2 rax finished, start stim
still constant rines from 3 rax
35 start first marauder
38 techlab and reactor, lift OC to natural
now the 2 techlab rax go marauders non stop, start concshell then shields
44 ghost academy
62 start 2 ghosts (about 8 minutes in)
engbay and resume marauders
+1 weapon started
push(9 minutes in) with 18 rines, 5 marauders, (+2 marauders just finished but not yet with the army) and 2 ghosts
So, what do you guys think?
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Was very powerful, I'd be interested in knowing the counters to this. In the LR thread people suggested more Zealots? Spreading can't be much of an option because Squirtle spread all his stuff quite nicely.
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On May 27 2011 06:15 Benjef wrote:
Was very powerful, I'd be interested in knowing the counters to this. In the LR thread people suggested more Zealots? Spreading can't be much of an option because Squirtle spread all his stuff quite nicely.
Someone mentioned putting stalkers forward and the sentries behind, so if the ghosts would want to emp they'd have to pass the stalkers first; resulting in either the death of both ghosts or forcing the terran to emp the stalkers instead. I guess the terran could just charge forward with some marauders and kill the Stalkers in that case before they can kill both ghosts...
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yea was really nice. i wonder whether this was was tailored specifically for squirtle's nexus first though..
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Very strong build, but after playing ALOT of micro tournament (a mod by morrow, the name says it all) where this engagement is a part of, simply putting stalkers a little bit forward, and the zealots just behind will result in the ghosts not being able to EMP the sentries.
Some ppl suggested that the marauders could just stim and run in, but there is a tiny line where either the ff's are able to land, or the ghosts get too close, and if controlled correctly, gets sniped.
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Seems like an excellent way to try to punish Nexus first/heavy gateway style. Might even work against 2 forge? Would probably fall pretty flat against the fast robo styles though. I do like how it is easily adaptable into the standard 2 base mix of Terran.
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United States97277 Posts
It would fail against fast robo that went straight for colossus, but it would still do well vs immortals since they are basically just another stalker without their shields.
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HMMM. I am very excited by this. I will be focusing on this build for the next little while. Sounds dope as hell.
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United States4126 Posts
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
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On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
Do people really have colossus at 9-10 minutes tho unless they rush it? I usually see one pop out at 11-13 minutes, I'm just high plat tho...
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On May 27 2011 06:48 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings. Do people really have colossus at 9-10 minutes tho unless they rush it? I usually see one pop out at 11-13 minutes, I'm just high plat tho...
Yes they can, and rushing for Colossus after an expansion (or even before an expansion, looking at you White-ra) is quite common.
I'm just interested in it as an option for punishing that Korean style of heavier gateway before Colossus. This isn't something you should do blindly (well, you shouldn't do ANYTHING blindly) but if you scout 2 forge or a Twilight it seems like a great idea instead of rushing for 2 reactor'd ports. Just another nice timing to add to the repertoire.
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well ghost timings were able to deal with early P expansions very well.
i think the trick is to have enough sentrys for GS and taking the push head on before EMPs land.
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It seemed in both games that Squirtle's zealot count was obscenely low, emp'd stalkers are going to melt to mm whereas zealots take less damage from the emp and actually give some DPS to the army. So yeah, as has been said, rush for colossus if you suspect ghost, and if not then more zealots, stalkers in front to snipe.
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The Protoss that react to any kind of Terran expansion by rushing to colossus will be able to hold this. A colossus popping out at the 10 minute mark isn't uncommon, and at that point the Terran is effectively dead because he can't transition into vikings fast enough to defend against the colossusrange timing.
For a gateway-heavy style, it is probably pivotal to have +1 armor and a lot of Zealots. The push that MKP used was very Marine-heavy, so +1 armor helps a lot against that. The Sentries should be kept in the back and/or launch early Guardian Shields, and if P can keep them alive he has Zealots that take 2 damage per shot from the Marines. The Stalkers (and the rest of the army too, of course) should be spread so that they can't be all EMP'd. Going too heavy on Stalker/Sentry is really a good way to lose against this, as they are far more vulnerable to EMPs than Zealots are.
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I imagine you can transition into this with say the marauders expo as well, and could most likely come, if you go for an incredibly fast colossus...you'll die to anything else that attacks you, a colossus at nine minutes won't save you regardless now two, that'd save you but you'd die straight up if you rushed that, this build is great against play that depends on people that rely on good forcefields to stay alive.
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Ghost style is pretty good against late robo play which has been getting more common. You can never really go wrong with those ghosts either but against robo faster medivacs and vikings is probably preferred.
I do think squirtle could have held but he just seemed to play horrible those games and i think he just got outmacro'd.
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As I said in my post, I think it's a very good counter for nexus first, and perhaps one gate expo. I guess the P can counter it by not making sentry for more zealot/stalkers, but how can he knows it comes is the problem. Perhaps a faster probe pull would have worked too, but against this mass of marines the probes are melting very fast.
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best response to nexus first if just pull everything off gas drop 3 more rax, marine scv all in with 1st round out of all 4 raxes, this build loses to colossus cuz u r so behind on tech, and will be slow on ups/getting a 3rd cuz if the push doesnt work u need extra bunkers to not die, u cant afford an armory/extra eng bays for ups cuz u r so gas capped, cant attack if they have 2 colossus up, its iffy if they have 1 out cuz u dont kno when the 2nd one will pop out and when range will finish.
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The best counter to the push itself is just alot of non-immortal units and good unit spread.. Zealots > stalker, but youll need stalkers. You'll also want to make sure you use a GS before the emp. Having 3 sentries spread out so that at least one doesnt get emp'd is important.
I think the biggest mistake people make is relying on forcefields against this push. Guardian shield is the key as the ghost investment that early on is a HUGE blow to the size of their bio ball. Not only do ghosts take an extremely long time to build (thus taking up production slot longer) they are more than twice as expensive as a marauder. You dont NEED a ton of forcefields to repel this attack. The thing is they cant even really kite you a ton because the nature of the push forces them to go through with the attack.. .here's why:
1) they try to kite you back, but you dont go because by not going you get your shields up and nullify the EMP effects as well as gather some energy for later.
2) if they dont follow through it gives you additional time to get to colossus/HT (colo obviously best option)
People need to realize that this is just a clever timing push and not a new standard. This build is okay, but not standard-worthy. People seem to be forgetting one player was cutting a ton of units to tech to DTs while expanding and continuing max probe production. Simply building a bunch of units would have led to a longer game on even footing.
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On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
problem is, in early game, terran can scout protoss with scan or floating rax, but toss can't scout terran.
so toss wont know if terran is getting ghosts or what, but terran can tailor his build to whatever.
that is the problem i always run into time and time again in PvT. Terran can customize his build order during the game, but toss is always on the back foot unless he gets robo observer. but i honestly prefer fast HT over fast collosus.
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EPT
