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On May 27 2011 08:12 Jayrod wrote:
The best counter to the push itself is just alot of non-immortal units and good unit spread.. Zealots > stalker, but youll need stalkers. You'll also want to make sure you use a GS before the emp. Having 3 sentries spread out so that at least one doesnt get emp'd is important.
I think the biggest mistake people make is relying on forcefields against this push. Guardian shield is the key as the ghost investment that early on is a HUGE blow to the size of their bio ball. Not only do ghosts take an extremely long time to build (thus taking up production slot longer) they are more than twice as expensive as a marauder. You dont NEED a ton of forcefields to repel this attack. The thing is they cant even really kite you a ton because the nature of the push forces them to go through with the attack.. .here's why:
1) they try to kite you back, but you dont go because by not going you get your shields up and nullify the EMP effects as well as gather some energy for later.
2) if they dont follow through it gives you additional time to get to colossus/HT (colo obviously best option)
People need to realize that this is just a clever timing push and not a new standard. This build is okay, but not standard-worthy. People seem to be forgetting one player was cutting a ton of units to tech to DTs while expanding and continuing max probe production. Simply building a bunch of units would have led to a longer game on even footing.
As you'll be getting the robo regardless because of the threat of cloaked banshees, can you explain to me why immortals are bad? The have the same health:shield ratio as zealots (ie. best in the protoss arsenal) and are much better than stalkers against every single terran ground unit in a straight up fight.
I don't agree with the they cannot effectively kite arguement either, as shields take a while to regenerate and I don't think a terran attack has ever lasted the minute and a half required to get 50 energy for a single forcefield (although I supposed if a sentry gets emp'd with 140 energy you might be right) because kiting generally involves constantly doing damage.
About holding the ghost push: If you scout the no gas you can go 1 gate fe into 3 gate forge (scout for marauder count to add a 4th gate or a robo, as cloak would be delayed so robo can be delayed). Army composition of almost purely zealot sentry, as sentries actually kill marines faster than stalkers due to their no overkill nature, and having a high number of sentries so that you can spread allowing you to still have a good amount of forcefields is great. The chronoboosted +1 armor will finish at 8:00~8:30, well in time for attack. If you built a robo because terran hid his gas usage well, then immortals actually actually great for damage/tanking against ghost builds.
The attack itself really isn't that scary if you know it's coming, its just knowing that it's coming that's hard. For early things like this protoss scouting and reaction capacity is actually much worse than zerg scouting (not meant to be a balance whine, just trying to offer a different perspective that people reading may be more able to relate to).
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I have found that early ghost + expanding terran is compromisable with my standard 3 gate semiproxy warp in pressure as the amount of units they have to hold the bunker can be scary for the terran to hold it.
You have to 2 gate robo in order to get colossus before 9 minute, which is fine, but you definitly woll not have lance, and you will be quite vulnerable to early marauder stuff since you have to skip an immortal to get a colossus that early.
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similar strategies were popular 12 months ago.
protoss can contain with gateway units, but you just need to keep units spread in a nice concave. you delay the terran expansion, and he can't really do anything until he gets siege tanks or starport.
spreading in concave makes the emp damage minimal - and the ghost is effectively flushing resources down the toilet.
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On May 27 2011 08:20 LoneWolf.Alpha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings. problem is, in early game, terran can scout protoss with scan or floating rax, but toss can't scout terran. so toss wont know if terran is getting ghosts or what, but terran can tailor his build to whatever. that is the problem i always run into time and time again in PvT. Terran can customize his build order during the game, but toss is always on the back foot unless he gets robo observer. but i honestly prefer fast HT over fast collosus.
If you do some sort of ultra gosu nexus before gate or 1 gate nexus then you are mostly playing in the dark as you should be when being that eco greedy. Terran has a vulnerability when teching to ghosts and expanding, a lot like how protoss has the same opening when teching to colossus after expanding, the windows are in different places though.
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On May 27 2011 06:48 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings. Do people really have colossus at 9-10 minutes tho unless they rush it? I usually see one pop out at 11-13 minutes, I'm just high plat tho...
Yeah they do  most people get rather fast Colossus on the NA ladder. Koreans have a fascination with 2 observers before collusus and/or early immortals, while on NA most people bumrush the colossus and hope they can FF away early pressure. Stim nerf made this very viable.
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in the old days fast ghost got simply overrolled by mass gateways. Or people used phoenix to lift the ghosts, remember terran has to hit and run against toss army with zealots and stalkers, they are good at that, thats why you use sentrys. But phoenix do the exact same thing just better in the early game. And marines would get massacred if they try to snipe the phoenix. And well they can't emp guardian shield away once its on ^^. (makes a phoenix resistant vs weak marine fire)
Well and if you already have the robo tech, ghost means no factory, so fast colossi can reign the battlefield for a long while. And before there are to many marauders out you will have your charge upgrade.
Anyway ghost tech is easy scoutable (because there is no other tech around) and if one emp misses you won. Well the sentry clumping that is so popular is of course a bad habit. (autofollow trick to split casters is <3 )
Well phoenix is something you have before the ghosts are out, so i guess mass gateways+upgrades is the best solution once scoutet or super fast hts hehe. But mass sentrys is a bad idea against early ghosts. (scan obs down and then the happy sentry hunting begins, well or a good emp when you try to attack)
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Any have a link the replay? Just a quick question from T perspective, how did MKP engage the army? stim first and then 2 emps? who are you targetting? stalkers/sentrys?
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MKP said he practiced those builds more then 2OO times so this means its for a specific korean metagame.Things i think will work vs this is stargate openings.fast colossus.blink stalker allin and even some kinda of DT cuz he will have to waste emps on DTs and make his army more inefficient without does emps.
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On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
I concur, I've been trying a fast ghost build since they announced on the PTR the gas/minerals change to ghost to anticipate this timing, except i do a polt style (i think?) reactor on first barracks, techlab on 2nd, and get out 2 ghosts with the energy upgrade already done. hits around the same time as MKPs but the expand comes after you move out rather than before. slightly less economical but higher energy count on your ghosts. I normally have 4 marauders, 2 ghosts, and lots of marines. Only thing I've lost to so far has been fast colossus builds. If you pull 6 scvs or so with your push, it strengthens the push a LOT because it helps absorb zealot attacks.
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On May 27 2011 09:55 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote:
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings. I concur, I've been trying a fast ghost build since they announced on the PTR the gas/minerals change to ghost to anticipate this timing, except i do a polt style (i think?) reactor on first barracks, techlab on 2nd, and get out 2 ghosts with the energy upgrade already done. hits around the same time as MKPs but the expand comes after you move out rather than before. slightly less economical but higher energy count on your ghosts. I normally have 4 marauders, 2 ghosts, and lots of marines. Only thing I've lost to so far has been fast colossus builds. If you pull 6 scvs or so with your push, it strengthens the push a LOT because it helps absorb zealot attacks.
Define fast. 1 2 or 3 gate colossus play, with or without expo?
Also I think people forgot that Squirtle was also grabbing a dark shrine and a robo while ultra fast expanding so MKP's attack was magnified in value.
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My build that I've been doing for the past week is not as efficient but the overall theme is the same ( 2 ghost push with energy upgrade in at around 9ish minute before collosus pops out)...it's very powerful...i pull 4-5 scv's as well...if the toss knows it's coming, throwing down a lot of cannons can stop it in conjunction with a lot of gateway units and good spacing.
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3 voidray push would give you problems.
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On May 27 2011 09:38 Severus_ wrote:
MKP said he practiced those builds more then 2OO times so this means its for a specific korean metagame.Things i think will work vs this is stargate openings.fast colossus.blink stalker allin and even some kinda of DT cuz he will have to waste emps on DTs and make his army more inefficient without does emps.
200..... jesus christ. thats some practice lol.
I think this build is ok, a good build in maybe a bo3 to catch somebody off guard. But you are really rolling the dice with ghost first builds. Stimming becomes very dangerous without medivacs, and you have to nail your EMP's otherwise you ar ehurting bad. It also seems like any 6 gate 2 base build would wreck this.
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It came down to the nexus first and going mass gateway units after that.
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The build that was done in the first game was a timing push designed around abusing 2 things
1- He nexus first so he wouldn't have out any tech units and would have to use heavy gateway
2- He would also have to have a lot of sentries in order to not get run over by standard MM
Game 2 was just a weird game in general.
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Great build for greedy tosses and tosses that heavily abuse sentries, but I think this only meant to kill fast nexus builds. Any other popular build would roll over this quite easily.
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I don't understand why people are saying it's the 15 nex that hurt Squirtle. Both players did very economic builds (15 nex, 1 rax cc) and should be matched in production. The nex/cc both had plenty of time to pay off; it's not like P should be forced to get robo before expanding vs. a 1 rax cc opening from T to get faster colo...
I feel like it was more simply the build Squirtle chose, with some infrastructure (robo, forge, 4 gas) that simply wasn't useful vs. this strong terran timing. I also agree the gateway comp seemed too stalker heavy, and P's micro was a bit off during the fight.
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On May 27 2011 10:37 Medrea wrote:
Also I think people forgot that Squirtle was also grabbing a dark shrine and a robo while ultra fast expanding so MKP's attack was magnified in value.
I'm looking at game 1 and there's no dark shrine or citadel, and the robo timing seems normal. Still, some buildings were not useful in holding off the attack.
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Makes me sad now that I missed this game
Defs gonna try this out
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ghostplay is awesome, and as a fellow toss player i cant say i like playing against them hehehe their really effective and this seems like a very tight build. i think the counter simply comes by massing non-energy/shield based units, that means NOT build sentrys/immortals and stuff like that. zealots with stalkers are probably a great option for the first push, then u go for colo/stargate.
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EPT
