Hello fellow liquipedians, after watching todays match between MKP and Squirtle I was amazed by MKPs first 2 ghost push, I managed to get hold of the build order from MrCon in the LR thread so I decided to post it here to get some discussion going about it;
- What could counter it?
- Could there be improvements to the build?
- Is it safe to use or does it have any major holes?
- Is there any unit that you should immediately push back if you see?
- Transitioning afterwards
Here's the build order (All credit on the finding of the build order goes to MrCon, thank you so much!):
After standard depot rax rine OC, he fast 2nd depot to wall quickly. Non stop rines/scv 20 CC 22 2 more rax 24 take 2 gas 25 depot 1 techlab when the 2 rax finished, start stim still constant rines from 3 rax 35 start first marauder 38 techlab and reactor, lift OC to natural now the 2 techlab rax go marauders non stop, start concshell then shields 44 ghost academy 62 start 2 ghosts (about 8 minutes in) engbay and resume marauders +1 weapon started push(9 minutes in) with 18 rines, 5 marauders, (+2 marauders just finished but not yet with the army) and 2 ghosts
Was very powerful, I'd be interested in knowing the counters to this. In the LR thread people suggested more Zealots? Spreading can't be much of an option because Squirtle spread all his stuff quite nicely.
On May 27 2011 06:15 Benjef wrote: Was very powerful, I'd be interested in knowing the counters to this. In the LR thread people suggested more Zealots? Spreading can't be much of an option because Squirtle spread all his stuff quite nicely.
Someone mentioned putting stalkers forward and the sentries behind, so if the ghosts would want to emp they'd have to pass the stalkers first; resulting in either the death of both ghosts or forcing the terran to emp the stalkers instead. I guess the terran could just charge forward with some marauders and kill the Stalkers in that case before they can kill both ghosts...
Very strong build, but after playing ALOT of micro tournament (a mod by morrow, the name says it all) where this engagement is a part of, simply putting stalkers a little bit forward, and the zealots just behind will result in the ghosts not being able to EMP the sentries.
Some ppl suggested that the marauders could just stim and run in, but there is a tiny line where either the ff's are able to land, or the ghosts get too close, and if controlled correctly, gets sniped.
Seems like an excellent way to try to punish Nexus first/heavy gateway style. Might even work against 2 forge? Would probably fall pretty flat against the fast robo styles though. I do like how it is easily adaptable into the standard 2 base mix of Terran.
It would fail against fast robo that went straight for colossus, but it would still do well vs immortals since they are basically just another stalker without their shields.
I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
Do people really have colossus at 9-10 minutes tho unless they rush it? I usually see one pop out at 11-13 minutes, I'm just high plat tho...
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
Do people really have colossus at 9-10 minutes tho unless they rush it? I usually see one pop out at 11-13 minutes, I'm just high plat tho...
Yes they can, and rushing for Colossus after an expansion (or even before an expansion, looking at you White-ra) is quite common.
I'm just interested in it as an option for punishing that Korean style of heavier gateway before Colossus. This isn't something you should do blindly (well, you shouldn't do ANYTHING blindly) but if you scout 2 forge or a Twilight it seems like a great idea instead of rushing for 2 reactor'd ports. Just another nice timing to add to the repertoire.
well ghost timings were able to deal with early P expansions very well. i think the trick is to have enough sentrys for GS and taking the push head on before EMPs land.
It seemed in both games that Squirtle's zealot count was obscenely low, emp'd stalkers are going to melt to mm whereas zealots take less damage from the emp and actually give some DPS to the army. So yeah, as has been said, rush for colossus if you suspect ghost, and if not then more zealots, stalkers in front to snipe.
The Protoss that react to any kind of Terran expansion by rushing to colossus will be able to hold this. A colossus popping out at the 10 minute mark isn't uncommon, and at that point the Terran is effectively dead because he can't transition into vikings fast enough to defend against the colossusrange timing.
For a gateway-heavy style, it is probably pivotal to have +1 armor and a lot of Zealots. The push that MKP used was very Marine-heavy, so +1 armor helps a lot against that. The Sentries should be kept in the back and/or launch early Guardian Shields, and if P can keep them alive he has Zealots that take 2 damage per shot from the Marines. The Stalkers (and the rest of the army too, of course) should be spread so that they can't be all EMP'd. Going too heavy on Stalker/Sentry is really a good way to lose against this, as they are far more vulnerable to EMPs than Zealots are.
I imagine you can transition into this with say the marauders expo as well, and could most likely come, if you go for an incredibly fast colossus...you'll die to anything else that attacks you, a colossus at nine minutes won't save you regardless now two, that'd save you but you'd die straight up if you rushed that, this build is great against play that depends on people that rely on good forcefields to stay alive.
Ghost style is pretty good against late robo play which has been getting more common. You can never really go wrong with those ghosts either but against robo faster medivacs and vikings is probably preferred.
I do think squirtle could have held but he just seemed to play horrible those games and i think he just got outmacro'd.
As I said in my post, I think it's a very good counter for nexus first, and perhaps one gate expo. I guess the P can counter it by not making sentry for more zealot/stalkers, but how can he knows it comes is the problem. Perhaps a faster probe pull would have worked too, but against this mass of marines the probes are melting very fast.
best response to nexus first if just pull everything off gas drop 3 more rax, marine scv all in with 1st round out of all 4 raxes, this build loses to colossus cuz u r so behind on tech, and will be slow on ups/getting a 3rd cuz if the push doesnt work u need extra bunkers to not die, u cant afford an armory/extra eng bays for ups cuz u r so gas capped, cant attack if they have 2 colossus up, its iffy if they have 1 out cuz u dont kno when the 2nd one will pop out and when range will finish.
The best counter to the push itself is just alot of non-immortal units and good unit spread.. Zealots > stalker, but youll need stalkers. You'll also want to make sure you use a GS before the emp. Having 3 sentries spread out so that at least one doesnt get emp'd is important.
I think the biggest mistake people make is relying on forcefields against this push. Guardian shield is the key as the ghost investment that early on is a HUGE blow to the size of their bio ball. Not only do ghosts take an extremely long time to build (thus taking up production slot longer) they are more than twice as expensive as a marauder. You dont NEED a ton of forcefields to repel this attack. The thing is they cant even really kite you a ton because the nature of the push forces them to go through with the attack.. .here's why:
1) they try to kite you back, but you dont go because by not going you get your shields up and nullify the EMP effects as well as gather some energy for later.
2) if they dont follow through it gives you additional time to get to colossus/HT (colo obviously best option)
People need to realize that this is just a clever timing push and not a new standard. This build is okay, but not standard-worthy. People seem to be forgetting one player was cutting a ton of units to tech to DTs while expanding and continuing max probe production. Simply building a bunch of units would have led to a longer game on even footing.
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
problem is, in early game, terran can scout protoss with scan or floating rax, but toss can't scout terran.
so toss wont know if terran is getting ghosts or what, but terran can tailor his build to whatever.
that is the problem i always run into time and time again in PvT. Terran can customize his build order during the game, but toss is always on the back foot unless he gets robo observer. but i honestly prefer fast HT over fast collosus.
On May 27 2011 08:12 Jayrod wrote: The best counter to the push itself is just alot of non-immortal units and good unit spread.. Zealots > stalker, but youll need stalkers. You'll also want to make sure you use a GS before the emp. Having 3 sentries spread out so that at least one doesnt get emp'd is important.
I think the biggest mistake people make is relying on forcefields against this push. Guardian shield is the key as the ghost investment that early on is a HUGE blow to the size of their bio ball. Not only do ghosts take an extremely long time to build (thus taking up production slot longer) they are more than twice as expensive as a marauder. You dont NEED a ton of forcefields to repel this attack. The thing is they cant even really kite you a ton because the nature of the push forces them to go through with the attack.. .here's why:
1) they try to kite you back, but you dont go because by not going you get your shields up and nullify the EMP effects as well as gather some energy for later.
2) if they dont follow through it gives you additional time to get to colossus/HT (colo obviously best option)
People need to realize that this is just a clever timing push and not a new standard. This build is okay, but not standard-worthy. People seem to be forgetting one player was cutting a ton of units to tech to DTs while expanding and continuing max probe production. Simply building a bunch of units would have led to a longer game on even footing.
As you'll be getting the robo regardless because of the threat of cloaked banshees, can you explain to me why immortals are bad? The have the same health:shield ratio as zealots (ie. best in the protoss arsenal) and are much better than stalkers against every single terran ground unit in a straight up fight.
I don't agree with the they cannot effectively kite arguement either, as shields take a while to regenerate and I don't think a terran attack has ever lasted the minute and a half required to get 50 energy for a single forcefield (although I supposed if a sentry gets emp'd with 140 energy you might be right) because kiting generally involves constantly doing damage.
About holding the ghost push: If you scout the no gas you can go 1 gate fe into 3 gate forge (scout for marauder count to add a 4th gate or a robo, as cloak would be delayed so robo can be delayed). Army composition of almost purely zealot sentry, as sentries actually kill marines faster than stalkers due to their no overkill nature, and having a high number of sentries so that you can spread allowing you to still have a good amount of forcefields is great. The chronoboosted +1 armor will finish at 8:00~8:30, well in time for attack. If you built a robo because terran hid his gas usage well, then immortals actually actually great for damage/tanking against ghost builds.
The attack itself really isn't that scary if you know it's coming, its just knowing that it's coming that's hard. For early things like this protoss scouting and reaction capacity is actually much worse than zerg scouting (not meant to be a balance whine, just trying to offer a different perspective that people reading may be more able to relate to).
I have found that early ghost + expanding terran is compromisable with my standard 3 gate semiproxy warp in pressure as the amount of units they have to hold the bunker can be scary for the terran to hold it.
You have to 2 gate robo in order to get colossus before 9 minute, which is fine, but you definitly woll not have lance, and you will be quite vulnerable to early marauder stuff since you have to skip an immortal to get a colossus that early.
protoss can contain with gateway units, but you just need to keep units spread in a nice concave. you delay the terran expansion, and he can't really do anything until he gets siege tanks or starport.
spreading in concave makes the emp damage minimal - and the ghost is effectively flushing resources down the toilet.
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
problem is, in early game, terran can scout protoss with scan or floating rax, but toss can't scout terran.
so toss wont know if terran is getting ghosts or what, but terran can tailor his build to whatever.
that is the problem i always run into time and time again in PvT. Terran can customize his build order during the game, but toss is always on the back foot unless he gets robo observer. but i honestly prefer fast HT over fast collosus.
If you do some sort of ultra gosu nexus before gate or 1 gate nexus then you are mostly playing in the dark as you should be when being that eco greedy. Terran has a vulnerability when teching to ghosts and expanding, a lot like how protoss has the same opening when teching to colossus after expanding, the windows are in different places though.
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
Do people really have colossus at 9-10 minutes tho unless they rush it? I usually see one pop out at 11-13 minutes, I'm just high plat tho...
Yeah they do most people get rather fast Colossus on the NA ladder. Koreans have a fascination with 2 observers before collusus and/or early immortals, while on NA most people bumrush the colossus and hope they can FF away early pressure. Stim nerf made this very viable.
in the old days fast ghost got simply overrolled by mass gateways. Or people used phoenix to lift the ghosts, remember terran has to hit and run against toss army with zealots and stalkers, they are good at that, thats why you use sentrys. But phoenix do the exact same thing just better in the early game. And marines would get massacred if they try to snipe the phoenix. And well they can't emp guardian shield away once its on ^^. (makes a phoenix resistant vs weak marine fire)
Well and if you already have the robo tech, ghost means no factory, so fast colossi can reign the battlefield for a long while. And before there are to many marauders out you will have your charge upgrade.
Anyway ghost tech is easy scoutable (because there is no other tech around) and if one emp misses you won. Well the sentry clumping that is so popular is of course a bad habit. (autofollow trick to split casters is <3 )
Well phoenix is something you have before the ghosts are out, so i guess mass gateways+upgrades is the best solution once scoutet or super fast hts hehe. But mass sentrys is a bad idea against early ghosts. (scan obs down and then the happy sentry hunting begins, well or a good emp when you try to attack)
Any have a link the replay? Just a quick question from T perspective, how did MKP engage the army? stim first and then 2 emps? who are you targetting? stalkers/sentrys?
MKP said he practiced those builds more then 2OO times so this means its for a specific korean metagame.Things i think will work vs this is stargate openings.fast colossus.blink stalker allin and even some kinda of DT cuz he will have to waste emps on DTs and make his army more inefficient without does emps.
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
I concur, I've been trying a fast ghost build since they announced on the PTR the gas/minerals change to ghost to anticipate this timing, except i do a polt style (i think?) reactor on first barracks, techlab on 2nd, and get out 2 ghosts with the energy upgrade already done. hits around the same time as MKPs but the expand comes after you move out rather than before. slightly less economical but higher energy count on your ghosts. I normally have 4 marauders, 2 ghosts, and lots of marines. Only thing I've lost to so far has been fast colossus builds. If you pull 6 scvs or so with your push, it strengthens the push a LOT because it helps absorb zealot attacks.
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
I concur, I've been trying a fast ghost build since they announced on the PTR the gas/minerals change to ghost to anticipate this timing, except i do a polt style (i think?) reactor on first barracks, techlab on 2nd, and get out 2 ghosts with the energy upgrade already done. hits around the same time as MKPs but the expand comes after you move out rather than before. slightly less economical but higher energy count on your ghosts. I normally have 4 marauders, 2 ghosts, and lots of marines. Only thing I've lost to so far has been fast colossus builds. If you pull 6 scvs or so with your push, it strengthens the push a LOT because it helps absorb zealot attacks.
Define fast. 1 2 or 3 gate colossus play, with or without expo?
Also I think people forgot that Squirtle was also grabbing a dark shrine and a robo while ultra fast expanding so MKP's attack was magnified in value.
My build that I've been doing for the past week is not as efficient but the overall theme is the same ( 2 ghost push with energy upgrade in at around 9ish minute before collosus pops out)...it's very powerful...i pull 4-5 scv's as well...if the toss knows it's coming, throwing down a lot of cannons can stop it in conjunction with a lot of gateway units and good spacing.
On May 27 2011 09:38 Severus_ wrote: MKP said he practiced those builds more then 2OO times so this means its for a specific korean metagame.Things i think will work vs this is stargate openings.fast colossus.blink stalker allin and even some kinda of DT cuz he will have to waste emps on DTs and make his army more inefficient without does emps.
200..... jesus christ. thats some practice lol.
I think this build is ok, a good build in maybe a bo3 to catch somebody off guard. But you are really rolling the dice with ghost first builds. Stimming becomes very dangerous without medivacs, and you have to nail your EMP's otherwise you ar ehurting bad. It also seems like any 6 gate 2 base build would wreck this.
The build that was done in the first game was a timing push designed around abusing 2 things 1- He nexus first so he wouldn't have out any tech units and would have to use heavy gateway 2- He would also have to have a lot of sentries in order to not get run over by standard MM
Great build for greedy tosses and tosses that heavily abuse sentries, but I think this only meant to kill fast nexus builds. Any other popular build would roll over this quite easily.
I don't understand why people are saying it's the 15 nex that hurt Squirtle. Both players did very economic builds (15 nex, 1 rax cc) and should be matched in production. The nex/cc both had plenty of time to pay off; it's not like P should be forced to get robo before expanding vs. a 1 rax cc opening from T to get faster colo...
I feel like it was more simply the build Squirtle chose, with some infrastructure (robo, forge, 4 gas) that simply wasn't useful vs. this strong terran timing. I also agree the gateway comp seemed too stalker heavy, and P's micro was a bit off during the fight.
On May 27 2011 10:37 Medrea wrote: Also I think people forgot that Squirtle was also grabbing a dark shrine and a robo while ultra fast expanding so MKP's attack was magnified in value.
I'm looking at game 1 and there's no dark shrine or citadel, and the robo timing seems normal. Still, some buildings were not useful in holding off the attack.
ghostplay is awesome, and as a fellow toss player i cant say i like playing against them hehehe their really effective and this seems like a very tight build. i think the counter simply comes by massing non-energy/shield based units, that means NOT build sentrys/immortals and stuff like that. zealots with stalkers are probably a great option for the first push, then u go for colo/stargate.
On May 27 2011 09:22 CrayonKing wrote: Any have a link the replay? Just a quick question from T perspective, how did MKP engage the army? stim first and then 2 emps? who are you targetting? stalkers/sentrys?
On May 27 2011 06:45 Kinky wrote: I've been doing a build similar to this for the past few months, and its weakness really is any sort of fast colossus. The ghosts are tailored towards the korean metagame of early gateway/HT and transitioning into colossus later on, but foreigners haven't caught on to that.
Personally I don't like MKP's variation because if the opponent did go fast colossus, you don't have enough gas to transition into double reactor'd starports to mass pump out vikings. I'll have to try the build out myself and check the gas timings.
problem is, in early game, terran can scout protoss with scan or floating rax, but toss can't scout terran.
so toss wont know if terran is getting ghosts or what, but terran can tailor his build to whatever.
that is the problem i always run into time and time again in PvT. Terran can customize his build order during the game, but toss is always on the back foot unless he gets robo observer. but i honestly prefer fast HT over fast collosus.
and why is that exactly? 1 gate robo adapt gets observer to his base incredibly fast. or perhpas you haven't heard of this unit before?
I do this all the time against protoss and have done for the last few months, Normally I find the protoss doing 3 gate robo expand. And I move out just when stim finishes and after I have started my expo building. 2 ghosts is all that is required and you should have 2 or 3 EMP's ready. Even if there is a colossus out, there wont be many, and usually thermal lance wont be done by that time. I guess I have a 90% win ratio against that particular composition. I think I only lose when I make some big EMP mistakes. But protoss should definatly get it in their head that 3gate robo expand is NOT the safest opening agaisnt the 2 ghost push.
How this build work vs 4 gates (or any other build) are fairly irrelevant here. One good thing about this build is that it's a reactionary build, you branch on it after an expansion and 3 rax. You have plenty of time to scout before your start your ghost academy, so for the 4 gates part, it's not "how this build fare against a 4 gates" but "how 4 gates fare against a 1 rax expand". So the answer is : it depends :p One rax expand can defend a 4 gates if you don't tech at all (or if you tech but do not lift your CC and fight at your ramp with tanks), if you have enough bunkers, if you don't cut rax units...
I think it's a good thing to train this build like 10+ times, until your are at least comfortable executing it, then you have it in your arsenal and use it if you scout a nexus first (and perhaps a one gate expo, and even perhaps a 3 gates expo, I don't know).
On May 27 2011 09:38 Severus_ wrote:Things i think will work vs this is stargate openings.fast colossus.blink stalker allin and even some kinda of DT cuz he will have to waste emps on DTs and make his army more inefficient without does emps.
I doubt any kind of DT would work. You notice that the army is a little gas dry. Hmm you think, I better save a scan on EACH of my OCs just in case. Oh a shimmer. Scan, DT dead. Weaker than usual gateway army emp'd and dead.
Blink stalker I cannot comment on because I do not know the specific timing, whether it would come before or after MKPs attack did
Fast colossus discussed already
stargate would be strong but would require intense micro.
Personally, I love any strategy that incorporates ghosts into a role heavier than countering high templar.
to the point improvments to the build i gotta add: a clearly improvement if you know already that probes pulling is somewhat bad to the push itself and there is no splash , just pull scvs out of terran view u gotta see it always how good pushes are if you add a splash non existent factor aswell meaning ur scvs will be your steamroll heros (or you can call it using bitbybit.prime mindset)
On May 28 2011 01:27 Serashin wrote: to the point improvments to the build i gotta add: a clearly improvement if you know already that probes pulling is somewhat bad to the push itself and there is no splash , just pull scvs out of terran view u gotta see it always how good pushes are if you add a splash non existent factor aswell meaning ur scvs will be your steamroll heros (or you can call it using bitbybit.prime mindset)
Interesting point, but have you really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
why do you guys theorycraft so much? just practice and learn 2 play lol, you waste your time discussing strategies when the majority of you are diamond scrubs
On May 28 2011 01:27 Serashin wrote: to the point improvments to the build i gotta add: a clearly improvement if you know already that probes pulling is somewhat bad to the push itself and there is no splash , just pull scvs out of terran view u gotta see it always how good pushes are if you add a splash non existent factor aswell meaning ur scvs will be your steamroll heros (or you can call it using bitbybit.prime mindset)
On May 28 2011 02:00 naventus wrote: Can someone explain how/why he skips ebay until much much later timing? All he knows is that P is 1base, yet he doesn't prepare against stuff like DT.
Only reason I can think of is that he's doing that build to blind counter Squirtle's play style.
If you scout an FE you can delay your ebay. The 6:30ish ebay timing is for fastest possible DTs.
I've been looking for a build like this, since sentries nullify any stimpush or conc shell push early on, even when they 1gate expand. My question would be bunker timings and scouting. You have to scout pressure builds to put up the bunkers, how do you do that? And you would need at least one bunker early for when the chrono stalker comes out(marines can't micro against stalkers).
Hi, im a high diamond player on EU server and i love this build. Anyway, i always wonder how to transition from the initial push if its not gg. I go straight for factory starport and then add 4 raxx. Any idea ?
The build is safe if you include a poke with your first marauder + marines. If you don't scout the protoss and check to see if you can pressure with these units while the units are sitting outside his base ready to hit asap some protoss will try and be super greedy and rush for colo.
Those protoss will get wrecked by this push. Vs a protoss playing safely you can't hit at this time. So you need to at least check what he is doing, because colo will wreck you later if you let him rush for them.
I'd include the poke in the build order, if you don't include it you're just praying that he's not rushing for colos and i've had so many players do this vs me that I would say missing this opporunity to kill them is a gigantic hole.
EPT
most people get rather fast Colossus on the NA ladder. Koreans have a fascination with 2 observers before collusus and/or early immortals, while on NA most people bumrush the colossus and hope they can FF away early pressure. Stim nerf made this very viable.
