2 rax broke the 13 hatch, looks like 3 rax is going to break hatch first.
wonder whats next *watches TLO 6 rax games*
joking aside, i think this is good for the game. Builds that dely the ability of players to tech and expand will bring depth, and more importantly, width to playstyle. This is because players wont be able to just safely tech up and econ. (2 base expo and get t3, muta contain to broods, etc.) and more time will have to be spent on lower tier battles. More decision making, more space control, more mechanics and more impact of what tech you do eventually choose.
You beat mondragon with this bo? Does that mean you could get into TSL4 just by using this bo?
I can't believe something like this would actually be possible just by cheesing... Though you wouldn't make it much farther once you get to the 5 game series or once ppl start looking at your games to figure out what you do.
On May 21 2011 08:03 noobinator wrote: You beat mondragon with this bo? Does that mean you could get into TSL4 just by using this bo?
I can't believe something like this would actually be possible just by cheesing... Though you wouldn't make it much farther once you get to the 5 game series or once ppl start looking at your games to figure out what you do.
EDIT: Happy birthday! :D
^^
Laddering and playing in tournaments are completely different things. Pros don't take ladder games very seriously therefor cheese has a higher probability of success because they don't care about ladder points.. I played LiquidRet while he was offracing terran the other day ^^
Wow, somebody did this to me, first he said that Ovies were OP because too fast. I replied so are marines, lol. Haven't played nearly enough games to have seen this coming, so didn't have any response. Blargh, hope someone comes up with a good response soon.
I lost against this build yesterday and it made me want to puke. I'm only a platinum player and had no clue what to do against it (not least of which because I couldn't effectively scout it out). He quickly walled off with a Rax and Depot below his ramp and, since it was a 2-player map, I scouted after GW (thinking I'd have time to get at least a quick look around his base). That wasn't the case. So... I went for a 2-gate rush (into core/robo) to punish his bottom-of-the-ramp buildings. But as my first four (very early) Zealots were on their way... my probe (which was was repositioned at the tower) spotted a ton of marines and scv's already on their way. I pulled back my four Zealots and rallying support units. I canceled my Robo and put up another GW. Then, when he ran up my ramp (scv's in front), I was able to FF... but the scv's were still doing damage and the marines were still shooting at my high-ground Zealots and other units. I'm sure at this point my micro suffered as I panicked, but I was obviously, and completely, facing a loss anyway.
Frankly, in my opinion, builds like this should not be possible if they can so effectively dominate ladder matches. And I suspect they could occasionally work in tournaments against the pros as well. People shouldn't have to be psychic and then still have to have perfect micro to stop early rush cheese.
As much as people want to talk about imbalance (rightly or wrongly), this is something that needs to be dealt with first and foremost (imho). First things first, like highly effective rush cheese, and then we can look at other balance issues. Of course... I'm not really sure where balance discussion is supposed to happen (or whether it's supposed to happen at all outside the top 1% of players).
I was wondering where this cheese came from. As a terran I always go to a quick Thor so even if he wipes out my line I get him on the counter with one Thor. Only died once to it. Pretty lame strategy.
I'm a masters zerg and I tried this strat on ladder last night. Went 7-0 against other master league players. I faced this twice on ladder as zerg as well and it was laughably easy to counter if you know its coming. No spines or fast banes, just pure speedling and two queens to defend.
On May 21 2011 09:46 jyLee wrote: I'm a masters zerg and I tried this strat on ladder last night. Went 7-0 against other master league players. I faced this twice on ladder as zerg as well and it was laughably easy to counter if you know its coming. No spines or fast banes, just pure speedling and two queens to defend.
On May 19 2011 20:44 Gulzt wrote: Aha, a top platinum player I faced pulled of a variation to this strat. I was instantly suspisious when I scouted the callsupply as zerg on the depot near the ramp but then it was already to late. I barely held it off but the dmg had been done and the next wave meant gg.
Going to check a few of the replays soon. Thanks for sharing!
How was there another wave, the strategy involves pulling all scvs, if you don't then it's incredibly easy to stop.
Not every version of this rush utilizes every single SCV (or has so few scvs for that matter).
The version I was working on awhile back didn't have a supply drop (mule was mining ASAP), had 1 less marine @ 4:30, and had 15 scvs instead of 12. That build could easily have a second wave, bunkers built during the first wave, and plenty of macro to build out of it if you did modest economic damage.
I usually pushed out at sub 4:20 with 7 marines and 10-12 scvs (leaving 3 scvs and a mule at home to continue mining). I actually wasn't sure if this was optimal or not, thinking that it might be better to leave sooner with a smaller number of marines/scvs, then follow up with a secondary wave of marines/scvs as they come in (being careful not to get the initial 3-5 marines killed). Hard to say really. In any event, it gave me the economy to drop 2 bunkers at the enemy base immediately -during- my attack, while maintaining continuous marine/scv production at home. Turned the whole attack into a game of crisis management, with the enemy trying frantically to fend off your dancing marine/scv force while worrying about the bunkers coming up.
Also worked really nicely vs zerg - I double bunker on the lowground near his expo hatch while immediately pushing into his main - do economic damage then pull back to the bunkers my reinforcements were gathering at. Worked alot better than waiting and focusing down the expo hatch (which seemed to give them enough time to defend their main with no real losses).
Anyway, even the OP's build would give you a second wave if you wanted it - you have a mule and can rebuild scvs as you go... It'd take awhile but it'll have an economy again eventually.
Ive found this build order to be better.
1. You can wall the top of your ramp giving them less idea of what your doing (standard 2 rax expand is what it looks like)
2. Multiple times i would kill every probe or drone but 1 or 2, and have no units left. This way even if I dont kill them and they have a stalker up or something, as long as I get the majority of the probes I will still have the economy with scvs to have a mass marine follow up
Hits at the same time, almost as hard, and allows a follow up.
On May 19 2011 20:44 Gulzt wrote: Aha, a top platinum player I faced pulled of a variation to this strat. I was instantly suspisious when I scouted the callsupply as zerg on the depot near the ramp but then it was already to late. I barely held it off but the dmg had been done and the next wave meant gg.
Going to check a few of the replays soon. Thanks for sharing!
How was there another wave, the strategy involves pulling all scvs, if you don't then it's incredibly easy to stop.
Not every version of this rush utilizes every single SCV (or has so few scvs for that matter).
The version I was working on awhile back didn't have a supply drop (mule was mining ASAP), had 1 less marine @ 4:30, and had 15 scvs instead of 12. That build could easily have a second wave, bunkers built during the first wave, and plenty of macro to build out of it if you did modest economic damage.
I usually pushed out at sub 4:20 with 7 marines and 10-12 scvs (leaving 3 scvs and a mule at home to continue mining). I actually wasn't sure if this was optimal or not, thinking that it might be better to leave sooner with a smaller number of marines/scvs, then follow up with a secondary wave of marines/scvs as they come in (being careful not to get the initial 3-5 marines killed). Hard to say really. In any event, it gave me the economy to drop 2 bunkers at the enemy base immediately -during- my attack, while maintaining continuous marine/scv production at home. Turned the whole attack into a game of crisis management, with the enemy trying frantically to fend off your dancing marine/scv force while worrying about the bunkers coming up.
Also worked really nicely vs zerg - I double bunker on the lowground near his expo hatch while immediately pushing into his main - do economic damage then pull back to the bunkers my reinforcements were gathering at. Worked alot better than waiting and focusing down the expo hatch (which seemed to give them enough time to defend their main with no real losses).
Anyway, even the OP's build would give you a second wave if you wanted it - you have a mule and can rebuild scvs as you go... It'd take awhile but it'll have an economy again eventually.
Ive found this build order to be better.
1. You can wall the top of your ramp giving them less idea of what your doing (standard 2 rax expand is what it looks like)
2. Multiple times i would kill every probe or drone but 1 or 2, and have no units left. This way even if I dont kill them and they have a stalker up or something, as long as I get the majority of the probes I will still have the economy with scvs to have a mass marine follow up
Hits at the same time, almost as hard, and allows a follow up.
Wasn't sure anyone even heard me in the chaos . I was working on that build early in the month trying to come up with an optimal scv/marine rush. One thing I found -really- changed things using that build was the way I use scvs on STOP mode instead of attack. So vs protoss for example I push in, then stutter-step stop mode with marines/scvs (scvs in front of marines) back toward the ramp as he pulls probes and whatever else he has. The stopped SCVS generate no heat, so the enemy units try to autoattack the marines behind them (bunching up in the process and causing massive probe losses without you losing scvs or marines). Enemy units won't autoattack the scvs until theres no marines behind them, and manually forcing probes to attack them one by one is just plain impossible, so this almost always lets me do terrible terrible damage. In a way, the SCVS become a mobile forcefield, an immovable wall.
The same trick can be used vs zerg VERY effectively. For example when I push in I usually ignore his expo hatch and go for the main/drone line - but every so often you find hard defense there (lings, crawlers, a queen or two, maybe even some roaches). In this instance I'll pull back to the ramp/expo hatch (where I left 2 scvs building bunkers on the low ground near the expo hatch as I pushed in). I'll put the scvs on hold position in the middle of the ramp like a giant plug, while reinforcements stream in. Even in an incredibly botched attack where you let your scvs/marines get completely surrounded (and would ordinarily get everything slaughtered) you should wind up getting out with most of your scvs intact.
You can see most of the things I'm talking about above, although it's a really rudimentary attempt (this was one of my first attempts with this build, I made no attempt to wall off, botched the build a bit, and totally screwed the pooch on the micro/macro). I get my bunkers down a bit late, totally botch my attack, but still manage to escape with quite a few SCVS intact to reinforce on the lowground and beat the zerg opponent (masters 1v1 2v2 3v3 and 4v4) despite the flaws. Ignore the rest of the game, as if I remember correctly this is an FFA where I wind up going afk most of the game and eventually die . With proper micro/micro use instead this becomes massively powerful, and I think the stopped SCV trick is crucial in that.
Other things to note are for example VS toss you might run into the occasional need to retreat. For example in the event the toss is pushing out chrono stalkers from 2 gateways he'll sometimes manage to push me back after taking heavy probe line damage, so when it's clear this is about to push me back I pull a full retreat (right click on home minerals as well to "extract" my scvs from the tangled knot of units) and drop a bunker at home on my ramp immediately. His stalkers will chase you home but by the time you arrive they should run smack into the bunker and fail to break your doorway, while your surviving scvs (almost all of them) return to mining as you put together a quick mass bio timing attack.
On May 21 2011 11:21 frodoguy wrote: Thanks alot, i was considering changing to toss due to the lack of strong cheese dat terran has, but now i can use this when i play terran.
Why would people want to change race for lack of 'strong cheese'? Just learn to beat somebody based on actual skill!
My favorite run-in with this build is when I was working on 16nex timings in customs and scouted some diamond clown doing this. I obviously lost and made fun of the guy for being a talentless clown, and then to save face he said that he just made it up on the spot because he scouted me playing greedy. When he low-ground depots and has 3 raxes in production at 12 supply before ever seeing a building of mine.
Anyways it's definitely concerning, it's extremely hard to stop this in PvT even if you know it's coming, and of course the terran can literally be doing anything behind their wall while they have to respond in a very specific, exploitable way. Neutral supply depots on maps are an obvious solution but they look kind of silly; it would be nice if there was another way for mapmakers to make stuff like this more difficult to do.
I have tried this with a friend. As protoss, once you know the counter, this build is really not that strong. When you see walloff at ramp: make one additional gate and chrono stalkers to his ramp. Scout for proxy raxes with probe. When you see his scvs and marines coming out: kite his marines a bit, then 3 pylon waloff the top of your ramp. You should now have 5 stalkers wich can shoot freely at the terran. I even didn't need to pull probes once he broke in my main. However be carefull: terran might be fast teching behind his wall. You should poke with your stalkers and react accordingly (build robo e.g.).
I don't understand how this thread can be 31 pages long! You are discussing a very simple allin build that has absolutely no potential and is easy to counter if you know it's coming. A 6 pool can be just as strong but seriously a zerg who only 6 pools is a joke. Why are you rushing for masters if you aren't good enough? I don't get it.
On May 21 2011 19:26 Zoia wrote: Video I made showing some people how to do this build. Being a mid - high level masters terran I agree that this build is fucking insane. Enjoy
Nice video ! Your execution of it isn't really perfect though, maybe you could have casted one of my replays against the pros (ToD or Mondragon for example). If anyone ever casts one of the games I played i'll be glad to add it to the OP btw
EPT
