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Hey TL, I've had a growing concern over the past two weeks or so.... and that is my PvZ (previously best MU) is now causing me great troubles.
I am all into the whole analysis thing with SC2Gears and analyzing my replays to try and see what went wrong and how I could of reacted better... but this is just getting out of control. Up until 2 weeks ago, my PvZ winrate was 73% over ~40 PvZ's. I know I'm not the best, and my mechanics are off, but my macro seems fairly solid. I say this because I have a bunch of practice partners (masters and up) that tell me my weaknesses are dealing with harass and early timing attacks. They also tell me that my macro and economic timings are very solid, at least for my skill level. Two weeks ago, I was on the verge of a promotion to plat. I was playing high ranked plat people every game... but NOW i'm facing off at mid-range gold opponents. I simply CRUSH these people in PvT / PvP... but PvZ has become quite a pain in my ass, where I used to PRAY for a zerg opponent.
About 2 weeks ago I noticed a trend showing up in PvZ, where the zerg would punish my 3gate expo by getting ~10 early roaches and some lings to go with it. I simply can't deal with this type of pressure, as EVERYTHING I've learned for PvZ seems to be completely wrong (metagame shifting)
My standard PvZ play is to 3gate expo into robotics / sometimes stargate tech. I'll stay 2base only until the 14-15 minute mark when I like to take my 3rd comfortably and keep my production levels high. In the past 2 weeks, I've only gotten to take my 3rd comfortably once, out of 20 or so games. Zergs seem to be just rolling over me, at any skill level.
I'm going to include a replay, and here are some of my thoughts:
Wrong:
1. late scout (last scout on tal'darim FML)
- a) I did see that he hadn't taken expo, and got to see the pool and 1gas
2. after he showed burrow, I realized I hadn't gotten a forge yet (because of nexus getting sniped early, threw my gameplan off) so I had to get a forge and THEN cannons
3. my macro slipped because of the high aggression early game where I wanted to secure an expo
4. map awareness - i could of contested map presence a bit more, but the threat of a counter attack was lingering in my mind
Right:
1. decent FF's creating concaves for my army
2. target firing the hydra's with my colossus when the lings ran in to tank colossus shots
Questionable:
1. double robo to make up for failing to maintain colossus retention
So these are the questions I want to ask you:
1. because of this metagame shift, is there something that I should be changing in my PvZ playstyle that would be better suited for this MU? link me to builds / replays please
2. if I know there is early roach pressure coming, how should I respond?
3. if I see a zerg staying on 1base, should I too stay 1base for the time being, as I'll probably have a production lead anyways since zerg's limited production on 1 base?
4. I don't like to cheese / semi-allin... I'm looking to change up my playstyle so I stand a chance in lategame PvZ, not trying to end it in the first 12 minutes like some people (MC style)
I know my mechanics aren't the best. I know my battle management isn't the best (not bad though). I know my APM isn't the highest, I average around 80-90 per game... so please don't just point at the obvious flaws, as I don't have a problem identifying these myself... and TBH it discourages newer players when people just say "better macro, better this, better that, (but won't give anything but vague improvement ideas)... I need someone with a deeper understanding of this MU to help point me in the right direction with how to play my PvZ MU.
http://drop.sc/9481
Thanks so much in anticipation of the thorough analysis that TL is capable of... you guys are amazing!
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As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate.
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1. What you're describing is a two-base all-in by Zerg that is (if done correctly) unscoutable. It's probably gaining popularity on the ladder as the pro zergs are moving toward doing blind all-in attacks as their bread-and-butter ZvP.
Fortunately nobody does things correctly, so you can still have a shot at scouting it by hiding a drone around the map and sneaking into the zerg base as your nexus finishes up (or a little after), to see what zerg is up to.
2. You can defend it by playing much more safely - you rushed to a robo off 3-gates, when you had no idea if it was safe or if an all-in was coming. If you want to avoid losing to these sorts of things, you need additional gates and (importantly) some sim-city at your natural, as well as a forge for a cannon or two (which serves to prevent roach burrow all-in attacks too).
3. Spend your chronoboost. You were way behind on your probe count, or a very delayed warp-gate tech, dependinng on your preference.
4. Also, watching your engagement, you need to work forcefields. To be honest you possibly could have held off that roach attack with just sentries and your warping in reinforcements and probes, if you'd used your forcefields to stall. When you eventually did engage, you hugged the roaches with your stalkers and sentries, and put down some pointless forcields. No guardian shield either. What you want to do is use forcefields to keep the roaches out of range of your stalkers, and/or split their army up so you can nibble away at the Zerg army without taking any damage yourself. You can easily handle a much larger zerg army with good forcefield usage. A choke or wall for added benefit is very helpful (hence the sim-city at your natural being important).
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On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate.
Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway...
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PvZ is by far my wost matchup. I'm a plat player and have recently been losing to silver level zergs. I win probably90% of my PvP and probably 75% of my PvT's (although i rarely ever play against T's lately, literally 1 out of my last 20 games was against a T.
Honestly, I just gg right off the bat most times against Z as I just cannot beat them. If I manage to make it to the mid game (only if they don't 2base all-in) they then switch to muta's then it's gg for me.
Super frustrating. I just don't have the apm to defend Muta harrass, even if I have blink stalkers. And they always get muta's way before I even think about HT's. And honestly, I hate using HT's, they take forever to tech to.
I honestly don't know why Z is always bitching about imbalance.
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I also have this issue. Used to love PvZ(was beating platinum / diamond, am high level gold), but literally in the last few weeks i can't beat a zerg to save my life.
I am getting alot of roach ling all ins as well after 3gate expo. Think i'm going to try dfiferent openings to 3gate sentry, cause it feels like zergs have worked out how to get well ahead from it. Either that or i'm terrible.
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright.
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On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright.
You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that.
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On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that.
only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings.
Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well.
MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers.
I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him.
The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example.
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On May 05 2011 08:55 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that. only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings. Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well. MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers. I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him. The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example.
Interesting... do you have any replays you could share? I think I've got the idea... but it still helps to see it in execution.
Also, you prob can't do this on a 2 player map as the gas before gate would be scoutable, and shenanigans would instantly be assumed.
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The key thing to defending the roach ling all-in is a proper wall off and proper unit positioning....
The zerg player will send the speedlings around the back of your expansion to surround you while the roaches push the front.... If you deny the speedlings access to getting around you then with proper forcefield placement you should have no problem holding it off.... I also recommend moving your probes to the main just incase they do that cute zergling hold position trick.
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On May 05 2011 09:02 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
The key thing to defending the roach ling all-in is a proper wall off and proper unit positioning....
The zerg player will send the speedlings around the back of your expansion to surround you while the roaches push the front.... If you deny the speedlings access to getting around you then with proper forcefield placement you should have no problem holding it off.... I also recommend moving your probes to the main just incase they do that cute zergling hold position trick.
Thanks for the tip but I don't think you watched my replay 
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On May 05 2011 08:32 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway...
Are you kidding? "Why would you do an all-in" is a question in and of itself - but it was because "respond accordingly" as Zerg has not worked whatsoever for Zergs the last few months, with the exception of possibly the last few weeks. A solution to was instead to do blind all-ins to win because it was basically impossible otherwise, if you went down the route of Roach/Hydra/Corrupter.
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Master's Zerg here
I've had a lot of success recently against Protoss going for standard 3 gate expo by dropping a Warren @ 34, getting 10-15 roaches and just swarming lings in while taking a 3rd. I've recently got this timing down after watching Losira in the GSL. It's very strong bit by no means an all-in!
I personally still struggle against forge-first play. You might want to try experimenting with it vs Zerg. If you wanted to be more standard you could also go for quick stargate harass, or 3 gate robo into expand (immortals to keep you safe)
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Master protoss here (just got in this season though). That didn't look at all like a roach-ling all-in. I think you need to practice forcefields and army control as well as learn what exactly you can do with that many sentries. Looking at the replay. IMO, you should be able to kill or at least push back that many roaches without losing more than a unit or 2, however, you let them get up the ramp and your army engaged piecemeal without any ffs. Try and position your army at a concave or angle to the ramp so that all of it will begin engaging at the same time when the roaches come up.
The forcefields you did throw down, as previously noted, were useless. It is good if you can ff the roaches outside their attack range allowing your stalkers and sentries to get free hits (roaches have 1 shorter range than sentries). Its better if you can forcefield the roaches down the ramp so that they can't even target your units, and its best if when the roaches are hugging the cliff like they did, if you can, slowly and calmly, completely ring them with forcefields. You can trap all of the roaches so they cannot attack and cannot retreat and kill most of them.
Again though, you put the ffs in a spot to keep the Zerg army from running away when you finally decided to engage after losing your natural. In the early game, zerg is absurdly cost efficient in a straight up fight v protoss because roaches are so beefy and so many can pop out at once. You should be trying to keep them away from your army in the early game when all you really have are sentries. Once you have a powerful army, thats when you want to start trying to prevent retreats.
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On May 05 2011 09:01 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:55 Tingles wrote:On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that. only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings. Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well. MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers. I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him. The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example. Interesting... do you have any replays you could share? I think I've got the idea... but it still helps to see it in execution. Also, you prob can't do this on a 2 player map as the gas before gate would be scoutable, and shenanigans would instantly be assumed.
Well. i would give you the reply of that game, but after gaining a colossal lead i got overzealous and died.
My theory is there with the build, but my execution is ... well .. shit.
Perhaps a friendly diamond or masters player could post a replay of it being executed by someone who isn't terrible at the game.
But basically the jist of it is still practical. Your a bit susceptible to early pressure, but it actually is really good vs roach ling all ins, because it will hit at your exp, and your dt's will clean up the entire attack. If you want to be super safe you just the DT's and get a usual forge after nexus and get a cannon. I dont' see any zerg pre-preemptively bringing an overseer to a massive roach ling attack, so that attack is stopped pretty dead.
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On May 05 2011 09:12 vaLentine88 wrote:
Master's Zerg here
I've had a lot of success recently against Protoss going for standard 3 gate expo by dropping a Warren @ 34, getting 10-15 roaches and just swarming lings in while taking a 3rd. I've recently got this timing down after watching Losira in the GSL. It's very strong bit by no means an all-in!
I personally still struggle against forge-first play. You might want to try experimenting with it vs Zerg. If you wanted to be more standard you could also go for quick stargate harass, or 3 gate robo into expand (immortals to keep you safe)
Thanks for the insight. Do you get the standard pair of lings to take map presence / deny scouting, or do you skip them to opt for a faster roach warren?
Also, with all the suggestions I think I will start opening stargate first vs. zerg. I have a few questions about the economic growth of this build though...
1. When do I expand?
2. Do I get my stargate immediately after core, or do I get 3 gates first?
3. Is the timing possible to do a 3gate expo INTO stargate, or would the roach pressure come first and just walk over me?
4. If I go 1gate stargate without an expo, at what point do I call off the attack? I usually see a void followed by 4-5 phoenix... do I use JUST these units as harassment so that I can safely gain my expo and take the economic lead?
Thanks everyone
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I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch.
For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ.
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On May 05 2011 09:20 tooleman wrote:I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch. For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ.
THANK YOUUUUU!!
See, TL owns. Lovely people helping you out.
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On May 05 2011 09:23 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:20 tooleman wrote:I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch. For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ. THANK YOUUUUU!! See, TL owns. Lovely people helping you out.
No problem. I'm not the best player but TL has definitely been the reason I have made the journey from lowly bronze to diamond so far.
I don't mean to put people down in bronze btw. I was there too!
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On May 05 2011 08:44 Drock wrote:
PvZ is by far my wost matchup. I'm a plat player and have recently been losing to silver level zergs. I win probably90% of my PvP and probably 75% of my PvT's (although i rarely ever play against T's lately, literally 1 out of my last 20 games was against a T.
Honestly, I just gg right off the bat most times against Z as I just cannot beat them. If I manage to make it to the mid game (only if they don't 2base all-in) they then switch to muta's then it's gg for me.
Super frustrating. I just don't have the apm to defend Muta harrass, even if I have blink stalkers. And they always get muta's way before I even think about HT's. And honestly, I hate using HT's, they take forever to tech to.
I honestly don't know why Z is always bitching about imbalance.
I am a low masters level Zerg and I can't use mutas vs semi competent toss players because they will make blink stalkers or archons or phoenix or pressure me so the mutas won't be effective. The reason you are losing is because the way Zerg wins is by opponents making mistakes, all things equal, with equal mistakes of ~equal severity I feel like the Protoss comes out on top.
A lot of the trouble people below grand master league have is just that they make too many mistakes, Zerg units are fast and they punish mistakes well, we have some units that can do well without a ton of micro and if your apm isn't high enough to handle that stuff, of course its going to hold you back.
I barely feel like the game is imbalanced anymore, we still see Terran and Protoss getting more first place finishes but It's fairly comparable to the number of players representing those races.
glhf
~Binxy
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