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Tingles
Australia225 Posts
On May 05 2011 09:26 tooleman wrote: No problem. I'm not the best player but TL has definitely been the reason I have made the journey from lowly bronze to diamond so far. I'm so terrible at this game, but TL makes me suck at it just a little less. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207053.jpg) As mentioned above, sim city to funnel them into a small area. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote: As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. But if they do go Void Rays (diamond and higher that is) on 1 base and you play standard with a 3rd queen (considering its not close air pos) you instantly win. =D | ||
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Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
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KotaOnCue
United States180 Posts
On May 05 2011 11:39 iTzAnglory wrote: But if they do go Void Rays (diamond and higher that is) on 1 base and you play standard with a 3rd queen (considering its not close air pos) you instantly win. =D Not necessarily because I've seen a lot of Toss do a timing with 1 VR and 2-5 Phoenix which counters queens and forces spores to go up but not before those units can do some hefty damage. The phoenix obviously neutralize the queens, giving that 1 VR time to charge up and smash those queens and then that 1 VR can either snipe the hatch or a lot of drones before any adequate defense comes out. That is, unless he also got a lot of spores out as well, but even if he does do something like that, it gives you the chance to expand safely and get map control for at least a few minutes. | ||
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:20 PR4Y wrote: Just out of curiosity, what's your PvZ winrate for the last two weeks over how many games?Hey TL, I've had a growing concern over the past two weeks or so.... and that is my PvZ (previously best MU) is now causing me great troubles. I am all into the whole analysis thing with SC2Gears and analyzing my replays to try and see what went wrong and how I could of reacted better... but this is just getting out of control. Up until 2 weeks ago, my PvZ winrate was 73% over ~40 PvZ's. I know I'm not the best, and my mechanics are off, but my macro seems fairly solid. I say this because I have a bunch of practice partners (masters and up) that tell me my weaknesses are dealing with harass and early timing attacks. They also tell me that my macro and economic timings are very solid, at least for my skill level. Two weeks ago, I was on the verge of a promotion to plat. I was playing high ranked plat people every game... but NOW i'm facing off at mid-range gold opponents. I simply CRUSH these people in PvT / PvP... but PvZ has become quite a pain in my ass, where I used to PRAY for a zerg opponent. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
Expanding with 4 gates is also getting popular. You'll have more units to deal with any early aggression and you can just decide to actually 4-gate. I know zergs are your level are really bad at scouting, but if his overlord scouts your 4gate and you after it dies, you're going to be way ahead as he overreacts. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On May 05 2011 09:01 PR4Y wrote: Interesting... do you have any replays you could share? I think I've got the idea... but it still helps to see it in execution. Also, you prob can't do this on a 2 player map as the gas before gate would be scoutable, and shenanigans would instantly be assumed. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108 Have a 2 gate variant that my roommate used against Sheth to great success as well, not sure what I did with the rep though. Double gas before 2nd pylon actual still allows for a pretty good 3 gate, and faster tech while keeping sentry production. | ||
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Tatari
United States1179 Posts
After the initial all in attack, if the Zerg continues the attack, go for a Stargate build using Void Rays to harass his base. If he was on 2 hatches pumping out lings/roaches, his anti-air is probably shit. If he stops, go for the standard play. Him stopping is a sign of him droning hard. Or you can all in. | ||
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tooleman
United States20 Posts
On May 05 2011 11:53 Drowsy wrote: 3 gate expo isn't the best opener anymore. I've been using 2gate 1 star expo openings instead. You will have your expo slightly later, but you just build 1 void and 1 phoenix you can usually get a few overlords, a queen, and possibly a few drones. You will also force queens/spores, you'll be more than ahead even though you get your expo later. Finally, you get map control and control over the towers with just 1 voidray. The 1 voidray will also make early ling/roach aggression almost impossible. Expanding with 4 gates is also getting popular. You'll have more units to deal with any early aggression and you can just decide to actually 4-gate. I know zergs are your level are really bad at scouting, but if his overlord scouts your 4gate and you after it dies, you're going to be way ahead as he overreacts. I really like the 2 gate 1 stargate expo idea! What level are you doing this at? And I'm guessing you cant make too many sentries before expanding due to the gas for stargate units, so what does your unit composition look like from your gateways? | ||
Borkbokbork
United States123 Posts
The fact is, both the Spanishiwa and Losira styles (Losira's style being 2 base roach/ling timing attack at 8 minutes into 3rd base, which destroys 3 gate expo) are extremely popular now, and Protoss hasn't had much time to adjust yet. This was already my worst matchup, and now it's even harder. I have had a great deal of success with DT rushing lately, but I doubt that will last. It's very hard to scout zerg early game, and obviously the DT rush only works when they get gas really late. It can work against speedling expand if they delay their lair. But it seems very luck based to be. If you want free wins for awhile then you should DT expand every game, but don't expect it to last forever. I think forge first openings are going to be much better- honestly cannoning their natural is a very strong play, even with just 1 cannon. It delays their expo a great deal and forces roaches earlier than they'd like. Secondly, I think that 1 gate 1 star expand will become more popular- it is easier to deny a 3rd against spanishiwa with the vr. also, you can prevent nydus worms by keeping overlords away from your base...and forcing spore crawlers/hydras is always good. and against the losira style, you can pump out another couple voids and fend off the attack, while again taking an early third. and don't even get me started on infestors. basically, zerg finally learned how to play: roach/hydra isn't the answer. Protoss needs to come up with something better. Zerg did, now it's time that we do something about it | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
Roach/ling all ins are tough to stop, but very possible to stop even if unscouted as long as you proceed cautiously. I watch all replays, wins or loses. I find my roach/ling stuff works when: protoss even skips forge, has bad force fields, basically doesn't have units and rushes tech, etc. Basically, when protoss is greedy, they need to be punished. The metagame prior to now is basically protoss being EVEN greedier than a standard, safe 3 gate expand with a lot of corner cutting, and it is only getting punished now. Once protoss learn they can't be quite this greedy, they'll scale back and things will be right as normal (aka struggling to fight the turtling deathball toss). EDIT: @ Your replay, I think you should've been able to fight that off with force fields. A few better placed ones, pull some probes, warp in, I think you would've been able to fend it off. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
The Roach Ling opening (commonly referred to as the Losira build) was built to PUNISH A STANDARD 3 GATE EXPAND. Thats your problem right there. Without a forge you cannot hold your expo unless it was a map that u can FFE on because this does win vs it usually. This build is being conitinually used on ladder because it was literally built and relies on punishing standard 3gate expand. Most people will say that due to the effectiveness of this build vs 3gate expand, the new standard safe PvZ build where u scout that this build is plausible, is to do a DT expand, but I dont like that build, and it depends on your opponent not switching to a fast lair build. MY new standard PvZ: gate gate forge expand. 3rd gate goes down in front of a cannon, between your ramp/expo making a sort of wall. Get Hallucination asap. You will get it just in time to send a phoenix and see "yup its coming" Then u throw down at least 1 more cannon. At this point u will have 2 cannons 6-7 sentries. u can get up to 5gates be4 this attack comes, with warpgate tech, 6-7 sentries, and 2 cannons. u can use the sentrys to keep them off long enough that ur 5 warpgates will kick in and u can defend this push. If Zerg sees your cannons and decides to not hit u dont need to drop a 2nd cannon. And u can either follow up witgh a 6gate timing if u scout them droning too heavily. I usually move out just to deny the 3rd that will be going up as soon as your ready, and then I back off, get my colossus tech started, take my 3rd, proceed to the macro game. And spam upgrades off of your forge as soon as you have it, since you will be on only gateway units for a bit the upgrades are going to be very efficient. u can also transition into twilight tech/templar tech/dt tech from here easily. but basically, don't do a standard 3gate expand if you think this build is otw. IMO this Z opening is so strong because at any given time, the Z can simply scout "o he is doing something that hardcounters the build i was doing (like 2gate stargate)" or if he notices "hmm he is getting a late expo" then he can simply change to a build that can counter your new one. Same with the Dt opener, if he scouts "hmm still on one base I am not seeing too many sentries on the ramp..." he has to know you are either going stargate or dt's without even scouting ur base, the response to both is spore crawler in the mineral line, but at least with the dt opener you can get/maintain map control until he gets his lair tech. But with the archon range buff (yay) as well as becoming Massive (tho tbh i dont kno how this will make it stronger v zerg) a dt opener will be even better as you go to archons from your DT's and dont have wasted DT tech cause he has overseers in his armies. | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
Also mass mass spines into mutas is probably the thing i have the most trouble with, there isnt really a great answer to mass mass mutas for toss. if you go mass pheonix and they transition your screwed so that really isnt an option, a competent zerg can avoid storms and completely avoid your entire army while slowly widdling you down keeping you in your base and expanding EVERYWHERE. | ||
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Amarkov
United States131 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:16 Amarkov wrote: But the entire point is that you can't scout a 2 base roach/ling all-in ahead of time. It was always known that you needed a forge and at least 1 cannon to 3 gate FE safely; it's just that zergs didn't generally do an all-in, so lots of protoss buddies felt safe without the cannon. exactly this is the problem for Toss from this opener, u can only scout it in the 10-30 seconds be4 they are AT your base so you have to assume that this build is possible, and always be prepared against it. And like a previous poster said, it isn't an All-in at all from the Zerg as they are taking their 3rd as they push, and they are on the same exact economy as the toss, but getting their 3rd simultaneously. | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On May 05 2011 11:47 Bobster wrote: Just out of curiosity, what's your PvZ winrate for the last two weeks over how many games? According to SC2Gears, pre-2week time period was 73% over ~40 games (stating the previously stated due to nested quotes) and since then, i'm hovering around 20% for the past 15-20 games... I'm afraid to ladder at this point until I figure something out with my PvZ. I have a few Z practice partners that I'm going to test out some of these builds and ask them to do early roach / ling pressure builds. On May 05 2011 11:43 Cocoba wrote: I haven't looked at the replay as I'm watching NASL ^^ but a suggestion I would like to make (if you dont do it already), create a wall off between your ramp and your natural, so runbys will hardly occur. I prefer to create this wall off with a pylon, forge, gateway, and a cannon behind all of that so lings aggro will go toward that when you decide to push out and they decide to go for the mineral line, which should give you enough time to react and warp in units. Something I've been starting to do now is a delayed scout after my nexus finishes to check if the zerg is droning, or doing an all-in. Since you already have a forge up, add more cannons as you see fit. Also, as a protoss, your FF shoudnt be alright, they should be perfect. I admit hardly anyone has perfect FF's but improving your skills with them will be indefinitely helpful. But take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm only in diamond, but PvZ is my best match up atm. I always do some sort of SimCity, but the problem was with this particular replay that he pressured before I even had the time to get that SimCity operational. Also, the map was Tal'Darim, so there was NO ramp to back up to... just my gateway / core wall that can still be attacked as there is no high ground advantage. Perhaps I will start to (on Tal'Darim that is) Forge First, or at least make my initial wall at the choke of the natural. The only thing I see that is wrong with that is if a Zerg scouts that wall early, there is a timing for run-by's to occur and with a 3gate sentry opener, the lings will have pretty much free roam of my main / natural until I can get out stalkers. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Just make sure you have one of the many watch towers between your base and his. If you see a lot of roach/ling coming, just build lots of cannons. You must also check to see if he is 1 basing or not. If he is, don't make the stargate and just make cannons. Also watch the minimap like a hawk for potential nydus warms. | ||
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Despicatus
34 Posts
A 3 gate Expo is the right thing to do in this situation you can hold everything the zerg throws at you with this. I think some tips might be: 1. Always get a Forge + 1 cannon to deal with lings runbys/2 base all ins 2. Dont rush straight for collosi if he all in's you on 2 base immortals are the way to go just throw a 2nd robo whenever you can and chrono mass immortals  This is a diamond level replay of mine where the zerg jus goes for crazy early roach aggression from 2 base (with really not many drones). I guess my FF placement is quite decent since the Zerg really starts whining about FFs at some point ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207069.jpg) | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On May 05 2011 11:45 KotaOnCue wrote: Not necessarily because I've seen a lot of Toss do a timing with 1 VR and 2-5 Phoenix which counters queens and forces spores to go up but not before those units can do some hefty damage. The phoenix obviously neutralize the queens, giving that 1 VR time to charge up and smash those queens and then that 1 VR can either snipe the hatch or a lot of drones before any adequate defense comes out. That is, unless he also got a lot of spores out as well, but even if he does do something like that, it gives you the chance to expand safely and get map control for at least a few minutes. Really? From my experience that seems more like a 2 base thing to do, 1 base with 5 phoenixes and a void ray definitely seems all in | ||
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