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Hey TL, I've had a growing concern over the past two weeks or so.... and that is my PvZ (previously best MU) is now causing me great troubles.
I am all into the whole analysis thing with SC2Gears and analyzing my replays to try and see what went wrong and how I could of reacted better... but this is just getting out of control. Up until 2 weeks ago, my PvZ winrate was 73% over ~40 PvZ's. I know I'm not the best, and my mechanics are off, but my macro seems fairly solid. I say this because I have a bunch of practice partners (masters and up) that tell me my weaknesses are dealing with harass and early timing attacks. They also tell me that my macro and economic timings are very solid, at least for my skill level. Two weeks ago, I was on the verge of a promotion to plat. I was playing high ranked plat people every game... but NOW i'm facing off at mid-range gold opponents. I simply CRUSH these people in PvT / PvP... but PvZ has become quite a pain in my ass, where I used to PRAY for a zerg opponent.
About 2 weeks ago I noticed a trend showing up in PvZ, where the zerg would punish my 3gate expo by getting ~10 early roaches and some lings to go with it. I simply can't deal with this type of pressure, as EVERYTHING I've learned for PvZ seems to be completely wrong (metagame shifting)
My standard PvZ play is to 3gate expo into robotics / sometimes stargate tech. I'll stay 2base only until the 14-15 minute mark when I like to take my 3rd comfortably and keep my production levels high. In the past 2 weeks, I've only gotten to take my 3rd comfortably once, out of 20 or so games. Zergs seem to be just rolling over me, at any skill level.
I'm going to include a replay, and here are some of my thoughts:
Wrong:
1. late scout (last scout on tal'darim FML)
- a) I did see that he hadn't taken expo, and got to see the pool and 1gas
2. after he showed burrow, I realized I hadn't gotten a forge yet (because of nexus getting sniped early, threw my gameplan off) so I had to get a forge and THEN cannons
3. my macro slipped because of the high aggression early game where I wanted to secure an expo
4. map awareness - i could of contested map presence a bit more, but the threat of a counter attack was lingering in my mind
Right:
1. decent FF's creating concaves for my army
2. target firing the hydra's with my colossus when the lings ran in to tank colossus shots
Questionable:
1. double robo to make up for failing to maintain colossus retention
So these are the questions I want to ask you:
1. because of this metagame shift, is there something that I should be changing in my PvZ playstyle that would be better suited for this MU? link me to builds / replays please
2. if I know there is early roach pressure coming, how should I respond?
3. if I see a zerg staying on 1base, should I too stay 1base for the time being, as I'll probably have a production lead anyways since zerg's limited production on 1 base?
4. I don't like to cheese / semi-allin... I'm looking to change up my playstyle so I stand a chance in lategame PvZ, not trying to end it in the first 12 minutes like some people (MC style)
I know my mechanics aren't the best. I know my battle management isn't the best (not bad though). I know my APM isn't the highest, I average around 80-90 per game... so please don't just point at the obvious flaws, as I don't have a problem identifying these myself... and TBH it discourages newer players when people just say "better macro, better this, better that, (but won't give anything but vague improvement ideas)... I need someone with a deeper understanding of this MU to help point me in the right direction with how to play my PvZ MU.
http://drop.sc/9481
Thanks so much in anticipation of the thorough analysis that TL is capable of... you guys are amazing!
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As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate.
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1. What you're describing is a two-base all-in by Zerg that is (if done correctly) unscoutable. It's probably gaining popularity on the ladder as the pro zergs are moving toward doing blind all-in attacks as their bread-and-butter ZvP.
Fortunately nobody does things correctly, so you can still have a shot at scouting it by hiding a drone around the map and sneaking into the zerg base as your nexus finishes up (or a little after), to see what zerg is up to.
2. You can defend it by playing much more safely - you rushed to a robo off 3-gates, when you had no idea if it was safe or if an all-in was coming. If you want to avoid losing to these sorts of things, you need additional gates and (importantly) some sim-city at your natural, as well as a forge for a cannon or two (which serves to prevent roach burrow all-in attacks too).
3. Spend your chronoboost. You were way behind on your probe count, or a very delayed warp-gate tech, dependinng on your preference.
4. Also, watching your engagement, you need to work forcefields. To be honest you possibly could have held off that roach attack with just sentries and your warping in reinforcements and probes, if you'd used your forcefields to stall. When you eventually did engage, you hugged the roaches with your stalkers and sentries, and put down some pointless forcields. No guardian shield either. What you want to do is use forcefields to keep the roaches out of range of your stalkers, and/or split their army up so you can nibble away at the Zerg army without taking any damage yourself. You can easily handle a much larger zerg army with good forcefield usage. A choke or wall for added benefit is very helpful (hence the sim-city at your natural being important).
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On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate.
Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway...
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PvZ is by far my wost matchup. I'm a plat player and have recently been losing to silver level zergs. I win probably90% of my PvP and probably 75% of my PvT's (although i rarely ever play against T's lately, literally 1 out of my last 20 games was against a T.
Honestly, I just gg right off the bat most times against Z as I just cannot beat them. If I manage to make it to the mid game (only if they don't 2base all-in) they then switch to muta's then it's gg for me.
Super frustrating. I just don't have the apm to defend Muta harrass, even if I have blink stalkers. And they always get muta's way before I even think about HT's. And honestly, I hate using HT's, they take forever to tech to.
I honestly don't know why Z is always bitching about imbalance.
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I also have this issue. Used to love PvZ(was beating platinum / diamond, am high level gold), but literally in the last few weeks i can't beat a zerg to save my life.
I am getting alot of roach ling all ins as well after 3gate expo. Think i'm going to try dfiferent openings to 3gate sentry, cause it feels like zergs have worked out how to get well ahead from it. Either that or i'm terrible.
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright.
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On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright.
You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that.
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On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that.
only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings.
Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well.
MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers.
I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him.
The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example.
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On May 05 2011 08:55 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that. only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings. Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well. MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers. I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him. The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example.
Interesting... do you have any replays you could share? I think I've got the idea... but it still helps to see it in execution.
Also, you prob can't do this on a 2 player map as the gas before gate would be scoutable, and shenanigans would instantly be assumed.
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The key thing to defending the roach ling all-in is a proper wall off and proper unit positioning....
The zerg player will send the speedlings around the back of your expansion to surround you while the roaches push the front.... If you deny the speedlings access to getting around you then with proper forcefield placement you should have no problem holding it off.... I also recommend moving your probes to the main just incase they do that cute zergling hold position trick.
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On May 05 2011 09:02 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
The key thing to defending the roach ling all-in is a proper wall off and proper unit positioning....
The zerg player will send the speedlings around the back of your expansion to surround you while the roaches push the front.... If you deny the speedlings access to getting around you then with proper forcefield placement you should have no problem holding it off.... I also recommend moving your probes to the main just incase they do that cute zergling hold position trick.
Thanks for the tip but I don't think you watched my replay 
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On May 05 2011 08:32 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway...
Are you kidding? "Why would you do an all-in" is a question in and of itself - but it was because "respond accordingly" as Zerg has not worked whatsoever for Zergs the last few months, with the exception of possibly the last few weeks. A solution to was instead to do blind all-ins to win because it was basically impossible otherwise, if you went down the route of Roach/Hydra/Corrupter.
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Master's Zerg here
I've had a lot of success recently against Protoss going for standard 3 gate expo by dropping a Warren @ 34, getting 10-15 roaches and just swarming lings in while taking a 3rd. I've recently got this timing down after watching Losira in the GSL. It's very strong bit by no means an all-in!
I personally still struggle against forge-first play. You might want to try experimenting with it vs Zerg. If you wanted to be more standard you could also go for quick stargate harass, or 3 gate robo into expand (immortals to keep you safe)
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Master protoss here (just got in this season though). That didn't look at all like a roach-ling all-in. I think you need to practice forcefields and army control as well as learn what exactly you can do with that many sentries. Looking at the replay. IMO, you should be able to kill or at least push back that many roaches without losing more than a unit or 2, however, you let them get up the ramp and your army engaged piecemeal without any ffs. Try and position your army at a concave or angle to the ramp so that all of it will begin engaging at the same time when the roaches come up.
The forcefields you did throw down, as previously noted, were useless. It is good if you can ff the roaches outside their attack range allowing your stalkers and sentries to get free hits (roaches have 1 shorter range than sentries). Its better if you can forcefield the roaches down the ramp so that they can't even target your units, and its best if when the roaches are hugging the cliff like they did, if you can, slowly and calmly, completely ring them with forcefields. You can trap all of the roaches so they cannot attack and cannot retreat and kill most of them.
Again though, you put the ffs in a spot to keep the Zerg army from running away when you finally decided to engage after losing your natural. In the early game, zerg is absurdly cost efficient in a straight up fight v protoss because roaches are so beefy and so many can pop out at once. You should be trying to keep them away from your army in the early game when all you really have are sentries. Once you have a powerful army, thats when you want to start trying to prevent retreats.
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On May 05 2011 09:01 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:55 Tingles wrote:On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that. only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings. Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well. MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers. I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him. The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example. Interesting... do you have any replays you could share? I think I've got the idea... but it still helps to see it in execution. Also, you prob can't do this on a 2 player map as the gas before gate would be scoutable, and shenanigans would instantly be assumed.
Well. i would give you the reply of that game, but after gaining a colossal lead i got overzealous and died.
My theory is there with the build, but my execution is ... well .. shit.
Perhaps a friendly diamond or masters player could post a replay of it being executed by someone who isn't terrible at the game.
But basically the jist of it is still practical. Your a bit susceptible to early pressure, but it actually is really good vs roach ling all ins, because it will hit at your exp, and your dt's will clean up the entire attack. If you want to be super safe you just the DT's and get a usual forge after nexus and get a cannon. I dont' see any zerg pre-preemptively bringing an overseer to a massive roach ling attack, so that attack is stopped pretty dead.
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On May 05 2011 09:12 vaLentine88 wrote:
Master's Zerg here
I've had a lot of success recently against Protoss going for standard 3 gate expo by dropping a Warren @ 34, getting 10-15 roaches and just swarming lings in while taking a 3rd. I've recently got this timing down after watching Losira in the GSL. It's very strong bit by no means an all-in!
I personally still struggle against forge-first play. You might want to try experimenting with it vs Zerg. If you wanted to be more standard you could also go for quick stargate harass, or 3 gate robo into expand (immortals to keep you safe)
Thanks for the insight. Do you get the standard pair of lings to take map presence / deny scouting, or do you skip them to opt for a faster roach warren?
Also, with all the suggestions I think I will start opening stargate first vs. zerg. I have a few questions about the economic growth of this build though...
1. When do I expand?
2. Do I get my stargate immediately after core, or do I get 3 gates first?
3. Is the timing possible to do a 3gate expo INTO stargate, or would the roach pressure come first and just walk over me?
4. If I go 1gate stargate without an expo, at what point do I call off the attack? I usually see a void followed by 4-5 phoenix... do I use JUST these units as harassment so that I can safely gain my expo and take the economic lead?
Thanks everyone
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I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch.
For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ.
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On May 05 2011 09:20 tooleman wrote:I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch. For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ.
THANK YOUUUUU!!
See, TL owns. Lovely people helping you out.
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On May 05 2011 09:23 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:20 tooleman wrote:I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch. For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ. THANK YOUUUUU!! See, TL owns. Lovely people helping you out.
No problem. I'm not the best player but TL has definitely been the reason I have made the journey from lowly bronze to diamond so far.
I don't mean to put people down in bronze btw. I was there too!
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On May 05 2011 08:44 Drock wrote:
PvZ is by far my wost matchup. I'm a plat player and have recently been losing to silver level zergs. I win probably90% of my PvP and probably 75% of my PvT's (although i rarely ever play against T's lately, literally 1 out of my last 20 games was against a T.
Honestly, I just gg right off the bat most times against Z as I just cannot beat them. If I manage to make it to the mid game (only if they don't 2base all-in) they then switch to muta's then it's gg for me.
Super frustrating. I just don't have the apm to defend Muta harrass, even if I have blink stalkers. And they always get muta's way before I even think about HT's. And honestly, I hate using HT's, they take forever to tech to.
I honestly don't know why Z is always bitching about imbalance.
I am a low masters level Zerg and I can't use mutas vs semi competent toss players because they will make blink stalkers or archons or phoenix or pressure me so the mutas won't be effective. The reason you are losing is because the way Zerg wins is by opponents making mistakes, all things equal, with equal mistakes of ~equal severity I feel like the Protoss comes out on top.
A lot of the trouble people below grand master league have is just that they make too many mistakes, Zerg units are fast and they punish mistakes well, we have some units that can do well without a ton of micro and if your apm isn't high enough to handle that stuff, of course its going to hold you back.
I barely feel like the game is imbalanced anymore, we still see Terran and Protoss getting more first place finishes but It's fairly comparable to the number of players representing those races.
glhf
~Binxy
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On May 05 2011 09:26 tooleman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:23 Tingles wrote:On May 05 2011 09:20 tooleman wrote:I had a similar problem in my PvZ match ups not too long ago. Generally telling someone to switch BO's is bad advice but I started using this fake 3gate sentry expand into a DT expand and it has worked wonders... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108. However, I still get my gateway at 12 to fend off the ever so popular early ling aggression. Also, I use my scouting probe to build the council and DT shrine in a hidden location to further hide the tech. This build allows for the additional of earlier archons as well which should be nice after the patch. For what its worth i have since been promoted to diamond using this as my standard PvZ. THANK YOUUUUU!! See, TL owns. Lovely people helping you out. No problem. I'm not the best player but TL has definitely been the reason I have made the journey from lowly bronze to diamond so far.
I'm so terrible at this game, but TL makes me suck at it just a little less.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207053.jpg)
As mentioned above, sim city to funnel them into a small area.
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On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate.
But if they do go Void Rays (diamond and higher that is) on 1 base and you play standard with a 3rd queen (considering its not close air pos) you instantly win. =D
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I haven't looked at the replay as I'm watching NASL ^^ but a suggestion I would like to make (if you dont do it already), create a wall off between your ramp and your natural, so runbys will hardly occur. I prefer to create this wall off with a pylon, forge, gateway, and a cannon behind all of that so lings aggro will go toward that when you decide to push out and they decide to go for the mineral line, which should give you enough time to react and warp in units. Something I've been starting to do now is a delayed scout after my nexus finishes to check if the zerg is droning, or doing an all-in. Since you already have a forge up, add more cannons as you see fit. Also, as a protoss, your FF shoudnt be alright, they should be perfect. I admit hardly anyone has perfect FF's but improving your skills with them will be indefinitely helpful. But take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm only in diamond, but PvZ is my best match up atm.
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On May 05 2011 11:39 iTzAnglory wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. But if they do go Void Rays (diamond and higher that is) on 1 base and you play standard with a 3rd queen (considering its not close air pos) you instantly win. =D
Not necessarily because I've seen a lot of Toss do a timing with 1 VR and 2-5 Phoenix which counters queens and forces spores to go up but not before those units can do some hefty damage. The phoenix obviously neutralize the queens, giving that 1 VR time to charge up and smash those queens and then that 1 VR can either snipe the hatch or a lot of drones before any adequate defense comes out.
That is, unless he also got a lot of spores out as well, but even if he does do something like that, it gives you the chance to expand safely and get map control for at least a few minutes.
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On May 05 2011 08:20 PR4Y wrote:
Hey TL, I've had a growing concern over the past two weeks or so.... and that is my PvZ (previously best MU) is now causing me great troubles.
I am all into the whole analysis thing with SC2Gears and analyzing my replays to try and see what went wrong and how I could of reacted better... but this is just getting out of control. Up until 2 weeks ago, my PvZ winrate was 73% over ~40 PvZ's. I know I'm not the best, and my mechanics are off, but my macro seems fairly solid. I say this because I have a bunch of practice partners (masters and up) that tell me my weaknesses are dealing with harass and early timing attacks. They also tell me that my macro and economic timings are very solid, at least for my skill level. Two weeks ago, I was on the verge of a promotion to plat. I was playing high ranked plat people every game... but NOW i'm facing off at mid-range gold opponents. I simply CRUSH these people in PvT / PvP... but PvZ has become quite a pain in my ass, where I used to PRAY for a zerg opponent. Just out of curiosity, what's your PvZ winrate for the last two weeks over how many games?
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3 gate expo isn't the best opener anymore. I've been using 2gate 1 star expo openings instead. You will have your expo slightly later, but you just build 1 void and 1 phoenix you can usually get a few overlords, a queen, and possibly a few drones. You will also force queens/spores, you'll be more than ahead even though you get your expo later. Finally, you get map control and control over the towers with just 1 voidray. The 1 voidray will also make early ling/roach aggression almost impossible.
Expanding with 4 gates is also getting popular. You'll have more units to deal with any early aggression and you can just decide to actually 4-gate. I know zergs are your level are really bad at scouting, but if his overlord scouts your 4gate and you after it dies, you're going to be way ahead as he overreacts.
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On May 05 2011 09:01 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:55 Tingles wrote:On May 05 2011 08:50 PR4Y wrote:On May 05 2011 08:49 Tingles wrote:
Fake a 3gate sentry exp then hit with DT's works well, and double stargate openings seem to go orright. You can't FAKE a 3gate sentry expo AND hit a DT timing that is any means reasonable... you simply don't have the gas to do that. only need like 2 sentries and put a pylon on low ground, slap down nexus, clear scouting lings. Watch Artosis's stream man, pulls it off quite well. MC did it vs July in last GSL final to i think? Only need like 1 or two. Just change the BO and get first gas before gate, just give you a huge gas buffer. You only need them to kill a queen or 2 and some drones and you've got a safe expo. And you can deny 3rd for a bit and harass army / watch towers. I got my DT shrine scouted and i STILL managed to kill 3 queens and about 6 drones before detection came. and then cause i denied his 3rd a bit with harass i actaully took my 3rd same time as him. The zerg i played reacted poorly so i suppose it's not a very good example. Interesting... do you have any replays you could share? I think I've got the idea... but it still helps to see it in execution.Also, you prob can't do this on a 2 player map as the gas before gate would be scoutable, and shenanigans would instantly be assumed.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108
Have a 2 gate variant that my roommate used against Sheth to great success as well, not sure what I did with the rep though.
Double gas before 2nd pylon actual still allows for a pretty good 3 gate, and faster tech while keeping sentry production.
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I've been seeing this time to time, but it's not like it's unwinnable. After the very first Zealot to complete your wall off, you should be making only Sentries from your Gateways. After Warp Gate tech finishes, then you should warp in Stalkers. I personally don't Chrono Boost my Warp Gate tech and get my economy going ASAP, so I can afford more stuff off one base in the case of him reaching my expo before it finishes. Just forcefield the right way. Back up to your ramp and cut off his army. Do the donut/sandwich trick. The moment your army goes head to head with the Zerg's, you can pretty much consider yourself dead if you don't forcefield properly.
After the initial all in attack, if the Zerg continues the attack, go for a Stargate build using Void Rays to harass his base. If he was on 2 hatches pumping out lings/roaches, his anti-air is probably shit. If he stops, go for the standard play. Him stopping is a sign of him droning hard. Or you can all in.
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On May 05 2011 11:53 Drowsy wrote:
3 gate expo isn't the best opener anymore. I've been using 2gate 1 star expo openings instead. You will have your expo slightly later, but you just build 1 void and 1 phoenix you can usually get a few overlords, a queen, and possibly a few drones. You will also force queens/spores, you'll be more than ahead even though you get your expo later. Finally, you get map control and control over the towers with just 1 voidray. The 1 voidray will also make early ling/roach aggression almost impossible.
Expanding with 4 gates is also getting popular. You'll have more units to deal with any early aggression and you can just decide to actually 4-gate. I know zergs are your level are really bad at scouting, but if his overlord scouts your 4gate and you after it dies, you're going to be way ahead as he overreacts.
I really like the 2 gate 1 stargate expo idea! What level are you doing this at? And I'm guessing you cant make too many sentries before expanding due to the gas for stargate units, so what does your unit composition look like from your gateways?
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United States123 Posts
Zerg is most definitely favored now in this matchup. Whether that is due to any kind of imbalance, or just the evolving metagame, only time will tell.
The fact is, both the Spanishiwa and Losira styles (Losira's style being 2 base roach/ling timing attack at 8 minutes into 3rd base, which destroys 3 gate expo) are extremely popular now, and Protoss hasn't had much time to adjust yet. This was already my worst matchup, and now it's even harder.
I have had a great deal of success with DT rushing lately, but I doubt that will last. It's very hard to scout zerg early game, and obviously the DT rush only works when they get gas really late. It can work against speedling expand if they delay their lair. But it seems very luck based to be. If you want free wins for awhile then you should DT expand every game, but don't expect it to last forever.
I think forge first openings are going to be much better- honestly cannoning their natural is a very strong play, even with just 1 cannon. It delays their expo a great deal and forces roaches earlier than they'd like. Secondly, I think that 1 gate 1 star expand will become more popular- it is easier to deny a 3rd against spanishiwa with the vr. also, you can prevent nydus worms by keeping overlords away from your base...and forcing spore crawlers/hydras is always good. and against the losira style, you can pump out another couple voids and fend off the attack, while again taking an early third.
and don't even get me started on infestors. basically, zerg finally learned how to play: roach/hydra isn't the answer.
Protoss needs to come up with something better. Zerg did, now it's time that we do something about it
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The only reason this roach/ling stuff is working is because Protoss has always played super freaking greedy, more than most people were willing to recognize. Expanding off like 2 zealots and some sentries and a cannon? Zergs didn't address this issue earlier, instead just trying to macro up. This led protoss to be even greedier, and cut even more corners.
Roach/ling all ins are tough to stop, but very possible to stop even if unscouted as long as you proceed cautiously. I watch all replays, wins or loses. I find my roach/ling stuff works when: protoss even skips forge, has bad force fields, basically doesn't have units and rushes tech, etc. Basically, when protoss is greedy, they need to be punished. The metagame prior to now is basically protoss being EVEN greedier than a standard, safe 3 gate expand with a lot of corner cutting, and it is only getting punished now.
Once protoss learn they can't be quite this greedy, they'll scale back and things will be right as normal (aka struggling to fight the turtling deathball toss).
EDIT: @ Your replay, I think you should've been able to fight that off with force fields. A few better placed ones, pull some probes, warp in, I think you would've been able to fend it off.
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am going to admit i ONLY read your OP and I can solve your problem without reading any of the other posts from people so far.
The Roach Ling opening (commonly referred to as the Losira build) was built to PUNISH A STANDARD 3 GATE EXPAND. Thats your problem right there. Without a forge you cannot hold your expo unless it was a map that u can FFE on because this does win vs it usually.
This build is being conitinually used on ladder because it was literally built and relies on punishing standard 3gate expand.
Most people will say that due to the effectiveness of this build vs 3gate expand, the new standard safe PvZ build where u scout that this build is plausible, is to do a DT expand, but I dont like that build, and it depends on your opponent not switching to a fast lair build.
MY new standard PvZ: gate gate forge expand. 3rd gate goes down in front of a cannon, between your ramp/expo making a sort of wall. Get Hallucination asap. You will get it just in time to send a phoenix and see "yup its coming" Then u throw down at least 1 more cannon.
At this point u will have 2 cannons 6-7 sentries. u can get up to 5gates be4 this attack comes, with warpgate tech, 6-7 sentries, and 2 cannons. u can use the sentrys to keep them off long enough that ur 5 warpgates will kick in and u can defend this push. If Zerg sees your cannons and decides to not hit u dont need to drop a 2nd cannon. And u can either follow up witgh a 6gate timing if u scout them droning too heavily. I usually move out just to deny the 3rd that will be going up as soon as your ready, and then I back off, get my colossus tech started, take my 3rd, proceed to the macro game. And spam upgrades off of your forge as soon as you have it, since you will be on only gateway units for a bit the upgrades are going to be very efficient. u can also transition into twilight tech/templar tech/dt tech from here easily.
but basically, don't do a standard 3gate expand if you think this build is otw.
IMO this Z opening is so strong because at any given time, the Z can simply scout "o he is doing something that hardcounters the build i was doing (like 2gate stargate)" or if he notices "hmm he is getting a late expo" then he can simply change to a build that can counter your new one.
Same with the Dt opener, if he scouts "hmm still on one base I am not seeing too many sentries on the ramp..." he has to know you are either going stargate or dt's without even scouting ur base, the response to both is spore crawler in the mineral line, but at least with the dt opener you can get/maintain map control until he gets his lair tech.
But with the archon range buff (yay) as well as becoming Massive (tho tbh i dont kno how this will make it stronger v zerg) a dt opener will be even better as you go to archons from your DT's and dont have wasted DT tech cause he has overseers in his armies.
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Diamond player here, and PVZ is quickly becoming my worst matchup, between the roach zergling i wouldnt exactly call it an all in like some people do if it does any damage you can transition out of it quite easily as seen in losira vs alicia.
Also mass mass spines into mutas is probably the thing i have the most trouble with, there isnt really a great answer to mass mass mutas for toss. if you go mass pheonix and they transition your screwed so that really isnt an option, a competent zerg can avoid storms and completely avoid your entire army while slowly widdling you down keeping you in your base and expanding EVERYWHERE.
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But the entire point is that you can't scout a 2 base roach/ling all-in ahead of time. It was always known that you needed a forge and at least 1 cannon to 3 gate FE safely; it's just that zergs didn't generally do an all-in, so lots of protoss buddies felt safe without the cannon.
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On May 05 2011 13:16 Amarkov wrote:
But the entire point is that you can't scout a 2 base roach/ling all-in ahead of time. It was always known that you needed a forge and at least 1 cannon to 3 gate FE safely; it's just that zergs didn't generally do an all-in, so lots of protoss buddies felt safe without the cannon.
exactly this is the problem for Toss from this opener, u can only scout it in the 10-30 seconds be4 they are AT your base so you have to assume that this build is possible, and always be prepared against it.
And like a previous poster said, it isn't an All-in at all from the Zerg as they are taking their 3rd as they push, and they are on the same exact economy as the toss, but getting their 3rd simultaneously.
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On May 05 2011 11:47 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:20 PR4Y wrote:
Hey TL, I've had a growing concern over the past two weeks or so.... and that is my PvZ (previously best MU) is now causing me great troubles.
I am all into the whole analysis thing with SC2Gears and analyzing my replays to try and see what went wrong and how I could of reacted better... but this is just getting out of control. Up until 2 weeks ago, my PvZ winrate was 73% over ~40 PvZ's. I know I'm not the best, and my mechanics are off, but my macro seems fairly solid. I say this because I have a bunch of practice partners (masters and up) that tell me my weaknesses are dealing with harass and early timing attacks. They also tell me that my macro and economic timings are very solid, at least for my skill level. Two weeks ago, I was on the verge of a promotion to plat. I was playing high ranked plat people every game... but NOW i'm facing off at mid-range gold opponents. I simply CRUSH these people in PvT / PvP... but PvZ has become quite a pain in my ass, where I used to PRAY for a zerg opponent. Just out of curiosity, what's your PvZ winrate for the last two weeks over how many games?
According to SC2Gears, pre-2week time period was 73% over ~40 games (stating the previously stated due to nested quotes) and since then, i'm hovering around 20% for the past 15-20 games... I'm afraid to ladder at this point until I figure something out with my PvZ. I have a few Z practice partners that I'm going to test out some of these builds and ask them to do early roach / ling pressure builds.
On May 05 2011 11:43 Cocoba wrote:
I haven't looked at the replay as I'm watching NASL ^^ but a suggestion I would like to make (if you dont do it already), create a wall off between your ramp and your natural, so runbys will hardly occur. I prefer to create this wall off with a pylon, forge, gateway, and a cannon behind all of that so lings aggro will go toward that when you decide to push out and they decide to go for the mineral line, which should give you enough time to react and warp in units. Something I've been starting to do now is a delayed scout after my nexus finishes to check if the zerg is droning, or doing an all-in. Since you already have a forge up, add more cannons as you see fit. Also, as a protoss, your FF shoudnt be alright, they should be perfect. I admit hardly anyone has perfect FF's but improving your skills with them will be indefinitely helpful. But take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm only in diamond, but PvZ is my best match up atm.
I always do some sort of SimCity, but the problem was with this particular replay that he pressured before I even had the time to get that SimCity operational. Also, the map was Tal'Darim, so there was NO ramp to back up to... just my gateway / core wall that can still be attacked as there is no high ground advantage.
Perhaps I will start to (on Tal'Darim that is) Forge First, or at least make my initial wall at the choke of the natural. The only thing I see that is wrong with that is if a Zerg scouts that wall early, there is a timing for run-by's to occur and with a 3gate sentry opener, the lings will have pretty much free roam of my main / natural until I can get out stalkers.
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Forge,gateway,core,pylon blocks off completely. If you feel the need (generally you don't), you can temporarily put in a 2nd gateway until your first gate finishes when you can build a core. If you are going to forge fe, no reason to make those sentries early on. Go stargate right after core for a void ray.
Just make sure you have one of the many watch towers between your base and his. If you see a lot of roach/ling coming, just build lots of cannons. You must also check to see if he is 1 basing or not. If he is, don't make the stargate and just make cannons. Also watch the minimap like a hawk for potential nydus warms.
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I admit not seeing you replay because I don't have the time for this atm but I guess I'm still going to try to help.
A 3 gate Expo is the right thing to do in this situation you can hold everything the zerg throws at you with this.
I think some tips might be:
1. Always get a Forge + 1 cannon to deal with lings runbys/2 base all ins
2. Dont rush straight for collosi if he all in's you on 2 base immortals are the way to go just throw a 2nd robo whenever you can and chrono mass immortals
This is a diamond level replay of mine where the zerg jus goes for crazy early roach aggression from 2 base (with really not many drones). I guess my FF placement is quite decent since the Zerg really starts whining about FFs at some point
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207069.jpg)
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On May 05 2011 11:45 KotaOnCue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:39 iTzAnglory wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. But if they do go Void Rays (diamond and higher that is) on 1 base and you play standard with a 3rd queen (considering its not close air pos) you instantly win. =D Not necessarily because I've seen a lot of Toss do a timing with 1 VR and 2-5 Phoenix which counters queens and forces spores to go up but not before those units can do some hefty damage. The phoenix obviously neutralize the queens, giving that 1 VR time to charge up and smash those queens and then that 1 VR can either snipe the hatch or a lot of drones before any adequate defense comes out. That is, unless he also got a lot of spores out as well, but even if he does do something like that, it gives you the chance to expand safely and get map control for at least a few minutes.
Really? From my experience that seems more like a 2 base thing to do, 1 base with 5 phoenixes and a void ray definitely seems all in
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On May 05 2011 13:20 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:47 Bobster wrote:On May 05 2011 08:20 PR4Y wrote:
Hey TL, I've had a growing concern over the past two weeks or so.... and that is my PvZ (previously best MU) is now causing me great troubles.
I am all into the whole analysis thing with SC2Gears and analyzing my replays to try and see what went wrong and how I could of reacted better... but this is just getting out of control. Up until 2 weeks ago, my PvZ winrate was 73% over ~40 PvZ's. I know I'm not the best, and my mechanics are off, but my macro seems fairly solid. I say this because I have a bunch of practice partners (masters and up) that tell me my weaknesses are dealing with harass and early timing attacks. They also tell me that my macro and economic timings are very solid, at least for my skill level. Two weeks ago, I was on the verge of a promotion to plat. I was playing high ranked plat people every game... but NOW i'm facing off at mid-range gold opponents. I simply CRUSH these people in PvT / PvP... but PvZ has become quite a pain in my ass, where I used to PRAY for a zerg opponent. Just out of curiosity, what's your PvZ winrate for the last two weeks over how many games? According to SC2Gears, pre-2week time period was 73% over ~40 games (stating the previously stated due to nested quotes) and since then, i'm hovering around 20% for the past 15-20 games... I'm afraid to ladder at this point until I figure something out with my PvZ. I have a few Z practice partners that I'm going to test out some of these builds and ask them to do early roach / ling pressure builds. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:43 Cocoba wrote:
I haven't looked at the replay as I'm watching NASL ^^ but a suggestion I would like to make (if you dont do it already), create a wall off between your ramp and your natural, so runbys will hardly occur. I prefer to create this wall off with a pylon, forge, gateway, and a cannon behind all of that so lings aggro will go toward that when you decide to push out and they decide to go for the mineral line, which should give you enough time to react and warp in units. Something I've been starting to do now is a delayed scout after my nexus finishes to check if the zerg is droning, or doing an all-in. Since you already have a forge up, add more cannons as you see fit. Also, as a protoss, your FF shoudnt be alright, they should be perfect. I admit hardly anyone has perfect FF's but improving your skills with them will be indefinitely helpful. But take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm only in diamond, but PvZ is my best match up atm. I always do some sort of SimCity, but the problem was with this particular replay that he pressured before I even had the time to get that SimCity operational. Also, the map was Tal'Darim, so there was NO ramp to back up to... just my gateway / core wall that can still be attacked as there is no high ground advantage. Perhaps I will start to (on Tal'Darim that is) Forge First, or at least make my initial wall at the choke of the natural. The only thing I see that is wrong with that is if a Zerg scouts that wall early, there is a timing for run-by's to occur and with a 3gate sentry opener, the lings will have pretty much free roam of my main / natural until I can get out stalkers.
High diamond random here. On Tal'Darim I've found it quite good to go nexus first versus Z. It's not terribly hard to hold, and if Z went hatch first, you're basically set. From here, a transition into pheonix and blink stalkers works really well. If you're worried about early pressure, you can always just start with a forge fast expand with an early cannon. Since the currently ZvP metagame seems to revolve around either roach or muta, stargate openings seem quite viable to me. Your first void ray will be able to deal with roaches that come out, and if you scout a spire with the Z stockpiling resources, you can always just add a second stargate and chrono out pheonix.
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I'm pretty much amazed at how many people didn't really watch the replay before giving advice.
Anyways here's my take on your play according to your replay.
Zerg gained a huge advantage by a Roach push at 9:00 game time. There were only 11 Roaches and you lost a Nexus, a pylon, 2 zealots, 4 stalkers and 3 sentries in the engagement while he lost only 5 roaches in the trade. Needless to say this is the critical part of the game which needs to be analyzed for you to improve your game.
The Zerg opened 10 pool and did nothing, so theoretically the zerg should be behind and you should be ahead. Whether you could decipher this from your scouting probe depends on how good your are at reading opponent builds. The zerg had no expansion and the gas was midway when your probe made it's mandatory catwalk behind the mineral line before dying. ( obviously it meant pool first build )
So analyzing why you lost to this early aggression ( if you can call 9:00 early ) ... it was because
1. Your scouting was inadequate
You scouted his base last ( tough luck ) but anyways you should send another one immediately and note expansion timing ( if he is expanding or not ) or if the zerg was going to 7 roach rush you or whatnot. ( there are plenty of nasty roach rushes that hit before the 5 minute mark )
Consider getting your observer out faster or opt for hallucination.
Occupy the towers aggressively instead of sending out a random probe to death by the zergling.
Send a suicide probe into the base of the zerg constantly to get information. ( constantly meaning if 1 probe fails send another )
2. Your defenses were inadequate
If I'm not wrong the 3 gate sentry expand is designed to hold off mass ling aggression/runbys by getting a lot of sentries in conjunction with a few zealots and some cannons. You only had 6 sentries and you didn't use them very well either. ( There's a thread where Incontrol coached a zerg how to 3 gate expand : they go up to 9 sentries to hold off aggression )
I feel you could have pumped more gateway units during the 9:00 minute period out of 3 gates. Also, you went 3 gate nexus robo .. you can consider 3 gate nexus forge gate gate robo to pump out more gateway units specifically for these types of pushes from the zerg. Getting a forge is a part of the 3 gate exp.and build for the early +1 attack anyways and you can plant a few cannons if any pending aggression is scouted.
In summary, I don't think the loss is the replay was because of a metagame shift/ trend .. the early ling roach aggression displayed by pros such as Losira and other zergs are on a different level in terms of scouting and build order than what this zerg in the replay displayed. Anyways I hope my 2 cents helped and hope it makes you a better gamer.
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entered this thread, expecting discussion about new PvZ styles including infestors, banelings, fast t3, whatever.
then saw some gold nap complaining he hasnt got enough apm for mutas and that zergs shouldnt complain
then left the thread immeadatly
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 05 2011 08:32 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway...
because as a protoss you don't go ALL-IN as a response to hatch first whereas you go ALL-IN with roach/ling as zerg. (refering to cannon block obviously)
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Zergs spent less time whining and more time finding better build orders, result?
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Gonna update this post when I get a chance to watch the replay, as it's a topic I'm very interested in. I just wanted to point out that the early ling/roach aggression doesn't have to be all-in. It's just the unrefined way that most zergs do it. If you do it properly you can be extremely economic with a pool/gas first build and give yourself the option of being aggressive if you scout that the protoss would be vulnerable to it, by knowing the correct timings. That's pretty much the opposite of an all-in imo. Analyze + Show Spoiler +Losira's game vs Alicia in the recent Code S game
It's very similar to how a Protoss can decide to punish a non-bunkering terran with heavy 3gate pressure instead of taking his natural after he scouts the front with his initial stalker/zealot. You sacrifice something to be aggressive, this is true, but you don't do it blindly - you make the decision based on what you scout.
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Can someone describe in a detailed way what is meant by "good forcefields" in the context of 3-gate expand? I don't think I ever get it right. It must mean something more than just keeping out lings, because if roaches get adjacent to your wall they have no trouble taking out any reasonable amount of cannons, and your units quickly run out of standing-room behind your wall where they can get free hits against the roaches.
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Alright i've watched the replay.
there were a few big problems with your gameplay, and here they are
1) You do not proactively use chrono boost
- because of this, your probe count is significantly less than it could be (who doesn't want more workers?) not using chronoboost on your nexus early game is akin to a zerg that does not larvae inject. work on that. Note that u should be using most of the Chronoboosts on probes whenever u can.
2) You did not put down a forge at the ramp to your expansion.
- there are several reasons why this is important
a. simcity (helps you to defend against early roach/ling busts as well as zergling runbys later on in the game
b. helps u get detection in case of any super early roach burrow attacks
in your case, it was a. which u needed most. it is much easier to defend against roaches when u have good simcity.
3) You hardly scouted at all.
- i have a motto, don't scout? then don't win. keep in mind that whenever you're not scouting you are essentially playing in the dark. this is not how starcraft should be played, ever. and you are probably not at the stage where u can simply guess what the opponent is doing based on deduction so don't rely on that too heavily. there are many ways to get scouting done. probe scouts are the best (if u can pull it off) of course this is also the hardest way to scout, but u must sac a probe now and then to see what the zerg is doing. against what the zerg specifically did to u, which was some kind of weak delayed roach push (he got lair and a hydra den for this push... completely weird) if u had sent a probe u would have at least known that he had roaches, which u didn't until it was too late.
also u need to absolutely know when the zerg expands and where, but that topic is more advanced and i wont go into it in too much detail.
4) Forcefields.
-What are force fields good for?
a. keeping units out (denying range and or access)
b. keeping units in (trapping units inside)
the ideal usage is doing both a and b at the same time, ie denying ranged units (hydras or roaches) from being able to attack ur army while trapping a few of their units inside. this lets u back up your army slightly and kill the trapped portion of the army with ease while the units that are denied access must back off since they dont have the range to engage colossus or stalkers effectively. however u did not do either with your force fields. what u did was u ran right up the roaches (where they can all hit you !) and you force fielded behind them... trapping them in. well in the first place ur army versus his army your army loses. so there is no reason in trapping them in with you as your army is the one that will lose. what you should have done is forcefielded about 2/3 of the roaches out and 1/3 in and focus down the 1/3 with ur stalkers (while of course saving the sentries from dying).
so these are 4 basics that u need to work on otherwise ull die to these kind of pushes all the time. keep in mind that this push was not very deadly. when done properly, two base ling pressure attacks come very quickly and with more units than he attacked u with at that late time (around 9ish minutes) so it is very essential that u follow all 4 points above to be able to survive into midgame and transition to lategame.
well good luck
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On May 06 2011 00:30 galivet wrote:
Can someone describe in a detailed way what is meant by "good forcefields" in the context of 3-gate expand? I don't think I ever get it right. It must mean something more than just keeping out lings, because if roaches get adjacent to your wall they have no trouble taking out any reasonable amount of cannons, and your units quickly run out of standing-room behind your wall where they can get free hits against the roaches.
well in the context of which u speak, 3 gate sentry expand vs a 2 base roach speedling timing attack, good forcefields generally close off gaps in your wall off (the wall simcity that u made at your expansion) as well as keeping roaches away from range so that u can safely engage the speedlings. roaches in small-medium numbers are not that scary if u have good simcity and forcefields, but it is the speedlings that can truly do a lot of damage, so u want to engage the speedlings first. since u are fighting at the simcity that u made at your base, it should be very easy to kill many many speedlings, so what u do is u forcefield the roaches out and kill the speedlings, then u use your superior range (stalkers) to hit the roaches that are stuck outside the forcefields. unless u have immortals or a lot of stalkers it is not smart to forcefield roaches inside with you, as they have a ton of hp and can target your vulnerable sentries if in range, so rather than letting them inside your forcefields u should try to keep them out. if u are good and confident in your forcefields, then what u do is u let some of them inside close to you and keep most of them trapped outside the forcefield, and then u make a sort of donut around the units that u have brought inside, the units in the donut can be exploited by ur ranged stalkers quite easily without having to worry about the roaches inside the donuts running up to u and killing sentries.
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You can 3 gate sentry expand, and have atleast one cannon, and a forge pylon gateway wall/obstruction + your nexus along with 7 or 8 sentries and a zealot by 8ish minutes. Which would be fine for the game in question, since the zerg's attack hit at like 8:40.
As mentioned before, you need to use your forcefields to not only prevent escape, but also to prevent them from hitting your units and buildings.
The trick is to start building your wall off pylon at around 6 minutes, and build the forge immediately when you can. You start nexus at around 7 minutes.
Check this replay for a somewhat ideal 3 gate expand. (He stole my gas).
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/173131-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
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On May 06 2011 01:14 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:30 galivet wrote:
Can someone describe in a detailed way what is meant by "good forcefields" in the context of 3-gate expand? I don't think I ever get it right. It must mean something more than just keeping out lings, because if roaches get adjacent to your wall they have no trouble taking out any reasonable amount of cannons, and your units quickly run out of standing-room behind your wall where they can get free hits against the roaches. well in the context of which u speak, 3 gate sentry expand vs a 2 base roach speedling timing attack, good forcefields generally close off gaps in your wall off (the wall simcity that u made at your expansion) as well as keeping roaches away from range so that u can safely engage the speedlings. roaches in small-medium numbers are not that scary if u have good simcity and forcefields, but it is the speedlings that can truly do a lot of damage, so u want to engage the speedlings first. since u are fighting at the simcity that u made at your base, it should be very easy to kill many many speedlings, so what u do is u forcefield the roaches out and kill the speedlings, then u use your superior range (stalkers) to hit the roaches that are stuck outside the forcefields. unless u have immortals or a lot of stalkers it is not smart to forcefield roaches inside with you, as they have a ton of hp and can target your vulnerable sentries if in range, so rather than letting them inside your forcefields u should try to keep them out. if u are good and confident in your forcefields, then what u do is u let some of them inside close to you and keep most of them trapped outside the forcefield, and then u make a sort of donut around the units that u have brought inside, the units in the donut can be exploited by ur ranged stalkers quite easily without having to worry about the roaches inside the donuts running up to u and killing sentries.
Sorry, I still don't totally understand.
Let's say that I'm on XNC and have simcity from my ramp to my nat nexus with some cannons. I can certainly FF to seal off my nat, but between the simcity in front of my nat nexus and the two chokes that lead to the middle of the map is a huge expanse of empty space --- way too much space to form a wall of FF to keep roaches out of range from my wall.
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You put forcefields in front of your sim city so that the roach's 4 range can't hit it, you don't need to be forcefielding the 2 chokes.
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When you say mistakes, do u mean jus micro mistakes? or mistakes in any category? I have the same issue dealing with this from zerg players. It always seems to hit right before the expo starts to pay off. Its either roach lings or jus mass roaches. I seem to struggle whenever the ramp is a bit wide.
-Sorry to piggyback off your thread =p
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Okay, thanks, I think I get it: In order to beat this attack of roaches and lings, I need to do these things:
- See it coming with enough time to react before the roaches get too close to my simcity (like from a tower)
- As the zerg units approach, lay down a line of FF far enough away from my wall so that roaches can't get in range to hit my wall. This means that I need to have my sentries spread out and ready so that I can make a FF line of the necessary length. And I need to lay down this line of FF very quickly because the roaches are going to be running for my wall.
- FF closed my simcity so that lings cannot run in.
- Immediately warp in stalkers behind my wall to shoot roaches and lings.
No wonder I'm having trouble. Seems like it will require a pretty high APM and mouse accuracy to respond correctly to this a-move timing attack.
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On May 06 2011 07:33 galivet wrote:
Okay, thanks, I think I get it: In order to beat this attack of roaches and lings, I need to do these things:
- See it coming with enough time to react before the roaches get too close to my simcity (like from a tower)
- As the zerg units approach, lay down a line of FF far enough away from my wall so that roaches can't get in range to hit my wall. This means that I need to have my sentries spread out and ready so that I can make a FF line of the necessary length. And I need to lay down this line of FF very quickly because the roaches are going to be running for my wall.
- FF closed my simcity so that lings cannot run in.
- Immediately warp in stalkers behind my wall to shoot roaches and lings.
No wonder I'm having trouble. Seems like it will require a pretty high APM and mouse accuracy to respond correctly to this a-move timing attack.
Yes, forcefields become exponentially more powerful as you get more apm. It's much the same as trying to execute a gasless defense when playing zerg; it relies on excellent scouting and excellent control, neither of which will be sufficient at low levels.
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If you let some roaches/lings get through and they snipe 1/2 building(s) that was part of the sim-city, it's okay as long as you defeat their army.
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zerg players become better and better everyday
how long did you think Toss winning everything would last
zergs will come out ontop one day!
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On May 06 2011 09:48 MadCatZ wrote:
zerg players become better and better everyday
how long did you think Toss winning everything would last
zergs will come out ontop one day!
These "OP trends" have been with SC2 from the day of the beta. Zerg: Roaches / Terran : Tanks / Protoss: High Templars.
ALLL NERFED.
Anyways, sim-city is really helpful, I won with sim-city vs a couple of aggressive zergs yesterday, too bad I played so many games that I can't find the replays.
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I think the issue lies in scouting and crisis management.
Since your initial scouting probe was picked off so early, you were a bit blind to what your opponent was doing. You might want to consider sending another probe later on or researching hallucination after warp gates to ensure that your opponent isn't massing an army. Your choice was to go straight for robo->observer which resulted in scouting that was a bit too late while also taking away time that could have been spent getting an immortal to help defend the roach push.
It feels that your expansion was quite vulnerable considering you lost your first probe so early. You didn't know for sure if he expanded, and yet you expanded with only 2 sentries and a zealot. After expanding, you didn't get a forge and cannons, despite still not knowing what your opponent was up to. Your buildings were all behind your first choke, which gives you less ability to constrict movement: this is important in case of zergling harass.
As for when the early roach pressure came, you have to know what are the appropriate decisions to make, and to make them instantly. The riskier your expansion timing is, the more precise and tight you have to be with your mechanics to ensure you stay alive. After getting to 6 sentries and 1 zealot, you spent 30 sec with idle warpgates before finally getting 2 stalkers and a zealot. After that warpin you had another 30 sec of idle warpgate time before the roaches hit. You didn't warp in for another 10 secs, at which point you became supply blocked. Your robotics bay sat idle for 40 sec after your observer finished. So, macro is certainly an issue here. You weren't able to get off any forcefields to delay your opponent, when you finally forcefielded later on, you cupped the roaches, which is not ideal since roaches want to get up close due to their poor range.
As a zerg, if I miss larva injections, leave larvae sitting idle, lose forward overlords without replacing them and get hit with a 4 gate, I will certainly lose the game.
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On May 05 2011 11:58 tooleman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:53 Drowsy wrote:
3 gate expo isn't the best opener anymore. I've been using 2gate 1 star expo openings instead. You will have your expo slightly later, but you just build 1 void and 1 phoenix you can usually get a few overlords, a queen, and possibly a few drones. You will also force queens/spores, you'll be more than ahead even though you get your expo later. Finally, you get map control and control over the towers with just 1 voidray. The 1 voidray will also make early ling/roach aggression almost impossible.
Expanding with 4 gates is also getting popular. You'll have more units to deal with any early aggression and you can just decide to actually 4-gate. I know zergs are your level are really bad at scouting, but if his overlord scouts your 4gate and you after it dies, you're going to be way ahead as he overreacts. I really like the 2 gate 1 stargate expo idea! What level are you doing this at? And I'm guessing you cant make too many sentries before expanding due to the gas for stargate units, so what does your unit composition look like from your gateways?
Low masters, yes you'll have less sentries, but one of the main reasons we need sentries in the first place is to defend against early aggression. Voidray takes care of that just fine. I usually get only 6 with this opener. You can transition very easily into 2 stargate 1 robo void/colossi abusiveness, or just do the traditional stalker colossus sentry death ball.
The other obvious advantage to opening stargate is you can counter mutalisks much more easily.
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On May 05 2011 16:31 Kotschmonaut wrote:
entered this thread, expecting discussion about new PvZ styles including infestors, banelings, fast t3, whatever.
then saw some gold nap complaining he hasnt got enough apm for mutas and that zergs shouldnt complain
then left the thread immeadatly
User was temp banned for this post.
Obviously you didn't read ANYTHING that I wrote in this topic... as I never ONCE mentioned anything about muta's, let alone the fact that you claim I said "zergs shouldn't complain"... Thankful for the temp ban, as these are the type of people that sometimes prevent me from posting at all. It takes a lot of nerve for a lower level player like myself to come on the largest PROFESSIONAL gaming website in the world and release replays to the public for scrutiny to seek help... and people like you are the reason such a high % of the TL population simply lurks.
On May 05 2011 16:15 ZeNd0kUn wrote:
I'm pretty much amazed at how many people didn't really watch the replay before giving advice.
Anyways here's my take on your play according to your replay.
Zerg gained a huge advantage by a Roach push at 9:00 game time. There were only 11 Roaches and you lost a Nexus, a pylon, 2 zealots, 4 stalkers and 3 sentries in the engagement while he lost only 5 roaches in the trade. Needless to say this is the critical part of the game which needs to be analyzed for you to improve your game.
The Zerg opened 10 pool and did nothing, so theoretically the zerg should be behind and you should be ahead. Whether you could decipher this from your scouting probe depends on how good your are at reading opponent builds. The zerg had no expansion and the gas was midway when your probe made it's mandatory catwalk behind the mineral line before dying. ( obviously it meant pool first build )
So analyzing why you lost to this early aggression ( if you can call 9:00 early ) ... it was because
1. Your scouting was inadequate
You scouted his base last ( tough luck ) but anyways you should send another one immediately and note expansion timing ( if he is expanding or not ) or if the zerg was going to 7 roach rush you or whatnot. ( there are plenty of nasty roach rushes that hit before the 5 minute mark )
Consider getting your observer out faster or opt for hallucination.
Occupy the towers aggressively instead of sending out a random probe to death by the zergling.
Send a suicide probe into the base of the zerg constantly to get information. ( constantly meaning if 1 probe fails send another )
2. Your defenses were inadequate
If I'm not wrong the 3 gate sentry expand is designed to hold off mass ling aggression/runbys by getting a lot of sentries in conjunction with a few zealots and some cannons. You only had 6 sentries and you didn't use them very well either. ( There's a thread where Incontrol coached a zerg how to 3 gate expand : they go up to 9 sentries to hold off aggression )
I feel you could have pumped more gateway units during the 9:00 minute period out of 3 gates. Also, you went 3 gate nexus robo .. you can consider 3 gate nexus forge gate gate robo to pump out more gateway units specifically for these types of pushes from the zerg. Getting a forge is a part of the 3 gate exp.and build for the early +1 attack anyways and you can plant a few cannons if any pending aggression is scouted.
In summary, I don't think the loss is the replay was because of a metagame shift/ trend .. the early ling roach aggression displayed by pros such as Losira and other zergs are on a different level in terms of scouting and build order than what this zerg in the replay displayed. Anyways I hope my 2 cents helped and hope it makes you a better gamer.
I think this is exactly what I needed to hear. I think I've become too comfortable with my PvZ matchup and let my general gameplay mechanics suffer as a result. I am usually very proactive about gaining scout information on production / economy and actually putting it to use... This game was simply one of the examples of how I'm having a hard time with this style of play.
To sum it up, I think I am going to start doing things a bit more in this order:
1. Instead of getting robo immediately after throwing down my nexus, I NEED to prioritize my SimCity and getting out a few more units. Delaying robo isn't that big of a deal, as I will actually stay alive if I do so. I'm trying to get too far ahead, being way too greedy. I never used to play like this but my comfort level with PvZ was so high, I felt like I could do anything and get away with it.
2. I'm going to actually produce out of my 3gate rather then trying to crank economy and production as much as possible, and focus on scaling them with my army better. Trying to jump too high in economy / production / tech while sacrificing my army size seems to be my major problem in this matchup. Once my macro kicks in, I can max out in like 16-17 minutes... although, I will admit I am very weak during this transition period.
3. I need to get back onto my scouting routines in this matchup. I spent so much time learning what to scout for and how to react to what I am seeing... throwing all that away because of my crazy winrate vs. Zerg for the longest time was a HUGE mistake, and I will suffer because of it as I will have to relearn how to play my PvZ.
4. Map control. This is a critical role in the way I play PvT (and to a lesser extent, PvP), so why have I started slouching in PvZ? Again... my comfort / confidence in this matchup killed me, to put it simply.
5. Different economic scaling. I usually like to grow my economy to the point where I can just mass production facilities and start cranking units like crazy.... I think from this point forward I will never add more then 2 structures at any given time (ex: 2 gateways, 1robo 1gate, 1star 1gate, ect.).
All of your advice has been invaluable to me. Thank you all SO much for putting time and effort into helping me improve. It means a lot to me. I think I will become a bit more of a frequent poster as a result of this.... No, I won't be posting "[H] I'm Bad - Need Help" topics every day... but if there should be a situation like this to arise in the future, I won't hold back as much as I did up to this point as I feel more comfortable posting now.
If anyone wants to offer any advice or help me practice ingame... My info is:
MoFunk.167
Again, thank you all so much. TL fucking fighting!
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soooooo... is 4 gate transition into robo still an option? Is zerg still as unbalanced as as we once thought?
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I'm a high-diamond low masters player and i have been having a lot of success with a 2gate stargate expo against zerg where i push out with around 4 phoenix at 7 minutes while taking my expansion with a forge 3-4 zealots 1-2 sentries and 1-3 stalkers depending on the pressure im taking.
What i pretty much do is open up standard
9 pylon
12 gate
cycore asap
zealot
early second gas
stalker
i throw down my stargate once the stalker gets out to kill the drone scout and patrol for the overlord scout. i chrono boost out 4 phoenixes and push out (4 is enough to one shot drones and kill queens in one lift) i do as much damage as possible while taking my natural and throwing down a forge for cannons (detection) and upgrades. I keep making phoenix depending on how successful i am being,I transition into what i need whether it be colossus, lots of gates or what have you. I have had no trouble holding off roach pushes because i kill so many overlords and queens usually their push is very delayed. If it is a 7 roach rush you can easily chrono boost out a VR and hold it off.
If my stargate gets scouted by a zerg because i forget to watch for the scouting OV i can cancel stargate and easily transition into 3 gate expo or 4 gate heavy pressure (neither which they are expecting)
I have had very high success against zerg and have been beating masters opponents. I would say give this build a try i have had a lot of success with it.
P.S. the one build that kicked my ass when i did this was a hyrda drop because i reacted very poorly i haven't had much practice against this build but i make sure to patrol my phoenixes for overlords if i am not harassing the zerg base so i can stop a drop before it happens.
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Canada13407 Posts
On May 07 2011 11:57 Swazi wrote:
I'm a high-diamond low masters player and i have been having a lot of success with a 2gate stargate expo against zerg where i push out with around 4 phoenix at 7 minutes while taking my expansion with a forge 3-4 zealots 1-2 sentries and 1-3 stalkers depending on the pressure im taking.
What i pretty much do is open up standard
9 pylon
12 gate
cycore asap
zealot
early second gas
stalker
i throw down my stargate once the stalker gets out to kill the drone scout and patrol for the overlord scout. i chrono boost out 4 phoenixes and push out (4 is enough to one shot drones and kill queens in one lift) i do as much damage as possible while taking my natural and throwing down a forge for cannons (detection) and upgrades. I keep making phoenix depending on how successful i am being,I transition into what i need whether it be colossus, lots of gates or what have you. I have had no trouble holding off roach pushes because i kill so many overlords and queens usually their push is very delayed. If it is a 7 roach rush you can easily chrono boost out a VR and hold it off.
If my stargate gets scouted by a zerg because i forget to watch for the scouting OV i can cancel stargate and easily transition into 3 gate expo or 4 gate heavy pressure (neither which they are expecting)
I have had very high success against zerg and have been beating masters opponents. I would say give this build a try i have had a lot of success with it.
P.S. the one build that kicked my ass when i did this was a hyrda drop because i reacted very poorly i haven't had much practice against this build but i make sure to patrol my phoenixes for overlords if i am not harassing the zerg base so i can stop a drop before it happens.
I have to agree, I too have found that an early stargate really helps shut down heavy roach ling aggression. When i can I decide to Forge Fe into voidrays but the key is to really really scout since if a roach ling all in does come a la mondragon TSL you really need to constantly build your wall to hold off the opponent until you can kill enough with the voidrays to survive.
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On May 07 2011 11:57 Swazi wrote:
I'm a high-diamond low masters player and i have been having a lot of success with a 2gate stargate expo against zerg where i push out with around 4 phoenix at 7 minutes while taking my expansion with a forge 3-4 zealots 1-2 sentries and 1-3 stalkers depending on the pressure im taking.
What i pretty much do is open up standard
9 pylon
12 gate
cycore asap
zealot
early second gas
stalker
i throw down my stargate once the stalker gets out to kill the drone scout and patrol for the overlord scout. i chrono boost out 4 phoenixes and push out (4 is enough to one shot drones and kill queens in one lift) i do as much damage as possible while taking my natural and throwing down a forge for cannons (detection) and upgrades. I keep making phoenix depending on how successful i am being,I transition into what i need whether it be colossus, lots of gates or what have you. I have had no trouble holding off roach pushes because i kill so many overlords and queens usually their push is very delayed. If it is a 7 roach rush you can easily chrono boost out a VR and hold it off.
If my stargate gets scouted by a zerg because i forget to watch for the scouting OV i can cancel stargate and easily transition into 3 gate expo or 4 gate heavy pressure (neither which they are expecting)
I have had very high success against zerg and have been beating masters opponents. I would say give this build a try i have had a lot of success with it.
P.S. the one build that kicked my ass when i did this was a hyrda drop because i reacted very poorly i haven't had much practice against this build but i make sure to patrol my phoenixes for overlords if i am not harassing the zerg base so i can stop a drop before it happens.
You can't get out a void ray in time to deal with 7 roaches at the 5:30 mark. Unless you wall off completely with an extra gateway to buy you time, you won't have a void ray out in time. The rush comes at around 5 minutes (5:30 for normal rush distance), and after the stalker (4:30), the stargate takes a minute, so 5:30, and then you have to build the void ray which costs another 60 seconds without chronoboost, which is around 6:30.
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You can't get out a void ray in time to deal with 7 roaches at the 5:30 mark. Unless you wall off completely with an extra gateway to buy you time, you won't have a void ray out in time. The rush comes at around 5 minutes (5:30 for normal rush distance), and after the stalker (4:30), the stargate takes a minute, so 5:30, and then you have to build the void ray which costs another 60 seconds without chronoboost, which is around 6:30.
I've dealt with the 7 roach rush before i take some damage but i always seem to survive it with the voidray and am usually able to win the game with 2-3 voidrays. Also if you are on close ground and nervous about a vr you could CB out a sentry or stalker to try to hold it out.
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You should put [L] in the title. I understand you needing help but it should be clear that you are a gold(?) level player. If you are at or near that level I think the best thing you could do is mass gaming, instead of asking for help. "Metagame" doesn't really mean anything at lower levels, and you shouldn't base your play style on getting good relative to gold level metagame. Honestly, if you had good mechanics and a good understanding of the game then you would be rolling the other gold/plat players.
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On May 07 2011 14:27 Carmine wrote:
You should put [L] in the title. I understand you needing help but it should be clear that you are a gold(?) level player. If you are at or near that level I think the best thing you could do is mass gaming, instead of asking for help. "Metagame" doesn't really mean anything at lower levels, and you shouldn't base your play style on getting good relative to gold level metagame. Honestly, if you had good mechanics and a good understanding of the game then you would be rolling the other gold/plat players.
Another "Blind leading the Blind" post... did you read anything I said, whatsoever? Obviously there has been a shift in this matchup's trending strategy's, as the statistics don't lie. Also, I find it quite ridiculous that you pop in after 4+ pages of legitimate discussion and blame my faults on "mechanics and good understanding of the game"...
You are the type of person that I spoke of earlier, that makes it un-nerving for someone like myself to come here and post... because what you are saying isn't going to help ANYONE, other then your post count.
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On May 05 2011 08:32 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway...
How is that "hilarious"? The consequence is that zerg prefers to pool first (hatch after) because this more safe, if a protoss expands, he's ahead.. thus the all-ins make sense.
You're quite contradicting yourself.. TT
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On May 05 2011 08:44 Drock wrote:
PvZ is by far my wost matchup. I'm a plat player and have recently been losing to silver level zergs. I win probably90% of my PvP and probably 75% of my PvT's (although i rarely ever play against T's lately, literally 1 out of my last 20 games was against a T.
Honestly, I just gg right off the bat most times against Z as I just cannot beat them. If I manage to make it to the mid game (only if they don't 2base all-in) they then switch to muta's then it's gg for me.
Super frustrating. I just don't have the apm to defend Muta harrass, even if I have blink stalkers. And they always get muta's way before I even think about HT's. And honestly, I hate using HT's, they take forever to tech to.
I honestly don't know why Z is always bitching about imbalance.
You don't know why they're bitching because you refuse to learn how to play against them? If you gg at the start, you're never going to get any better. You don't tech to HT to defend muta harass, you get one stargate and CB phoenixes. Phoenixes require almost no micro, although the benefit greatly from it, and absolutely SHRED mutalisks.
If you're having problems getting to lategame, try pressuring zergs more early. Faking a 3 gate expand by showing like one sentry and then adding a stargate will just win outright in a lot of games. Stargate play is hugely underrated in sub diamond leagues.
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On May 08 2011 04:47 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 14:27 Carmine wrote:
You should put [L] in the title. I understand you needing help but it should be clear that you are a gold(?) level player. If you are at or near that level I think the best thing you could do is mass gaming, instead of asking for help. "Metagame" doesn't really mean anything at lower levels, and you shouldn't base your play style on getting good relative to gold level metagame. Honestly, if you had good mechanics and a good understanding of the game then you would be rolling the other gold/plat players. Another "Blind leading the Blind" post... did you read anything I said, whatsoever? Obviously there has been a shift in this matchup's trending strategy's, as the statistics don't lie. Also, I find it quite ridiculous that you pop in after 4+ pages of legitimate discussion and blame my faults on "mechanics and good understanding of the game"... You are the type of person that I spoke of earlier, that makes it un-nerving for someone like myself to come here and post... because what you are saying isn't going to help ANYONE, other then your post count.
You are the kind of player that thinks that stuff that he sees in gold league is relevant. Any trends in gold league don't matter because they don't win against people in PLATINUM league. You just want to think what you do matters, when you don't (probably) put more than 5 hours a week into the game. If you put more in and you are still in gold, then you have other problems.
User was temp banned from Strategy Forum for this post and his other post in this thread
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So Carmine's being kind of a dick about it, but he's somewhat right.
What you have to realize is that we're not being deliberately unhelpful. We cannot help you if you want to learn to play more strategically in gold league, because we simply do not know proper gold league strategy. I know what to do about mutas in a diamond or masters game; cannons discourage mutas, blink stalkers punish greedy mutas, and amoving your army into his base punishes overproducing mutas.
But I know literally nothing about how to best deal with mutas in a gold level game. I imagine that one of the above solutions would work decently, but I don't know that, because games in gold league are fundamentally different. It may be that you don't have good enough blink stalker control for that to be an effective counter, or it may be that your opponents have bad enough muta control that it's all you need. Maybe your opponents are macroing well enough that you can't reflexively all-in when you see 30 mutas, and maybe you're macroing well enough that you can all-in when you see 7. High level players can tell you what we'd do in such-and-such situation, but it's important for you to realize that, it doesn't necessarily apply at all. Any strategy you get is going to fail in some situation where it should succeed, and there won't be anything we can tell you but "well, you have to have better mechanics.
Again, though, try to ignore him. He's saying what I'm saying in the most abrasive and least helpful way possible.
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3 gate expand is more of a viable option in PvP, and PvT imho. I think Forge FE is probably much much stronger against zergs than a 3gate expand. Another problem it could just be your sentry count. If you have a ton of sentries, its pretty much near impossible for roaches to be too effective, w/ that being said, RETAIN SENTRY COUNT! trying to replace sentries, after build your initial 8 sentries is such a bitch, it starts cutting into your colossus count.
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Forge FE is stronger against zerg, but it works on only 2 ladder maps and makes it much harder to defend against early all-ins. It's good to learn eventually, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone already struggling with the matchup.
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PvZ is just ugly right now. I switched from toss to zerg and luls at people attempting to 3 gate expand. 8 raoches+28 lings kills any expo. Mass lings after a 14 gas/pool can easily break a single zealot that toss usually do. The main problem is scouting. I realized after my first 2 sets of lings pop out. I can deny all scouts. So from a toss turned zerg, I suggest players to stop 3 gate sentry expand. Add more stalkers before moving out to take the expo or add a forge then take the expo and put down cannon right away. The Old 7-8 sentry+zealot expansion is gonna go out of the meta.
Also don't listen to people about forge FE. You basically are gonna die to roach-all in and nydus unless you are great at probe micro.
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On May 08 2011 16:35 Amarkov wrote:
Forge FE is stronger against zerg, but it works on only 2 ladder maps and makes it much harder to defend against early all-ins. It's good to learn eventually, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone already struggling with the matchup.
noob zerg here:
which two maps are these, I want to veto them.
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Tal'darim and Shakuras are far and away the best maps for forge FE. It was possible on metal, but as far as I know it's actually not possible to deal with Nestea's spine crawler rush if you don't have a full wall in front of your nexus. And it's doable on backwater, but you need 4 buildings and perfect positioning for a full wall.
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On May 08 2011 18:41 joyeaux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:35 Amarkov wrote:
Forge FE is stronger against zerg, but it works on only 2 ladder maps and makes it much harder to defend against early all-ins. It's good to learn eventually, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone already struggling with the matchup. noob zerg here: which two maps are these, I want to veto them.
Shakuras and Taldarim i think.
You can FFE on other maps but it's harder.
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K, just watched the replay.
I don't understand what you mean by "trend change" because this game showcased none. He did a roach all in off 2 bases and transitioned into roach hydra macro. That's not a trend change.... Zergs have been doing 2 base all ins for a while. Also this one was a pure roach attack, which is never really done because its terrible, so yea there was no new trend here.
Now, I don't understand why this game is confusing you. He went for an all in. If you go 3 gate expand (like you did), you have to be crisp with your execution to defend roach pushes because the build already cuts it close to get a good economy. Put simply, your macro wasn't "fine", it was very very bad. The timings of your build overall were off, but I'm not a protoss player so I'll let someone else cover this. You used your chrono boosts terribly, which led to you not having as many probes as you should have had earlier, which set your build back again. At 6 minutes 45 seconds into the game you have full energy on your nexus, and you only start to use a chrono at 7:24. Your energy remained ridiculously high on both nexus, at at like 9 minutes they were both at 100 / 100. Yea, I think you can guess this is very bad. You could have chronoed your probes, +1, and robo tech faster.
You scout that he has a lot of roaches off only 2 bases at a fairly early time, yet you didn't build a cannon. Wait, you didn't actually scout.
Your macro strictly in terms of making units and production buildings consistently slipped. You were often at 1k minerals, you didn't make units as soon as your warpgate cooldown finished, and you only had 3 warpgates despite being over 10 minutes into the game and on 2 base saturation. This also led to you not being able to spend your money, which in turn led to you not having as many units as you should have when the attack came.
You didn't make enough sentries. From what I recall you only had 4, when you want to make 1 zealot and about 7 sentries as early as you can. You're gonna need that many sentries to defend attacks, and you need to build them before any other unit so they can start saving energy.
Your micro was also really bad, and a 3 gate expand requires you use forcefields well, which you didnt. Part of the problem of course was you didn't have enough sentries in the first place. Anyway, your forcefields secluded a total of.....2 roaches? Basically you let him walk up that ramp for free despite having an army there, and get really close to ur army with roaches before u put up forcefields that didn't actually do anything. Practice better forcefield micro, and in that case specifically use forcefields on the ramp to funnel his units and delay him walking up that ramp.
The game was effectively over after the first attack killed your nexus so I won't bother talking about the game after that.
So yea, to conclude: you're going for a 3 gate expand. This is safe vs any all ins, but the build cuts it close. You need to have crisp execution and good forcefield micro to make it work. Your macro was very bad, you didn't add enough production structures, you didn't use your chronoboosts well, you didn't scout, and you didn't micro well, hence you lost. This really had nothing to do with a PvZ trend change or even the PvZ matchup. You just didn't execute your build at all and got punished for it.
On May 08 2011 04:47 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 14:27 Carmine wrote:
You should put [L] in the title. I understand you needing help but it should be clear that you are a gold(?) level player. If you are at or near that level I think the best thing you could do is mass gaming, instead of asking for help. "Metagame" doesn't really mean anything at lower levels, and you shouldn't base your play style on getting good relative to gold level metagame. Honestly, if you had good mechanics and a good understanding of the game then you would be rolling the other gold/plat players. Another "Blind leading the Blind" post... did you read anything I said, whatsoever? Obviously there has been a shift in this matchup's trending strategy's, as the statistics don't lie. Also, I find it quite ridiculous that you pop in after 4+ pages of legitimate discussion and blame my faults on "mechanics and good understanding of the game"... You are the type of person that I spoke of earlier, that makes it un-nerving for someone like myself to come here and post... because what you are saying isn't going to help ANYONE, other then your post count.
No, he's right. There is no metagame relevant to gold league because everyone is so lacking in their mechanics that's nothing matters that much. I mean look at this game...the guy made like 15 roaches off 1.5 base saturation and attacked you. He also opened 10 pool and continued making drones...that's reflecting a changing trend in Zerg play? No, it was just a bad build that shouldn't work if you play it right.
The problem very clearly was your mechanics. Your execution of the build was very bad, and probably indicative of how good your macro is as a whole. If you fix your macro and know nothing else but a general idea of what units to make and an opening build, you're gonna laugh your way up to mid diamond. At this level ignore all "metagaming", strategy, map control, matchup dynamics, etc because its not very relevant to you. Your basic mechanics:
- macro (consistently making workers, units, adding gateways, spending chrono)
- Scouting
- Forcefield micro
need serious work before you start getting more elaborate because right now they're severely lacking.
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On May 05 2011 09:04 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:32 dani` wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 isospeedrix wrote:
As a Z, the roach/ling all in is one of my most frequently used strats to combat the 3gate expand. I daresay the most effective counter to this build is a Stargate void ray before expansion. I have approximately a 0% win rate against 1base stargate first builds. I just hope that not too many people will shift to this build because I absolute hate combating 1base stargate. Why would you do a Roach / Ling all-in vs a 1-basing player? Just continue your droning and sacrifice an Overlord to see what he's up to and respond accordingly. The point of insane aggression early is to punish the relatively fast expansion of Protoss. It's actually quite hilarious seeing how Zergs would rage a *lot* not so long ago when Protoss would do very early attack vs Hatch first, calling it cheese, noobstrat and whatnot. Essentially they start doing it themselves because early rush > early expansion. Obvious, I know, but Zergs thought they should always be allowed to Hatch first anyway... Are you kidding? "Why would you do an all-in" is a question in and of itself - but it was because "respond accordingly" as Zerg has not worked whatsoever for Zergs the last few months, with the exception of possibly the last few weeks. A solution to was instead to do blind all-ins to win because it was basically impossible otherwise, if you went down the route of Roach/Hydra/Corrupter.
The reason why roach/hydra/corruptor wasn't working is because its a pretty bad unit composition against the standard Protoss deathball (stalker / sentry / colossus / VR). Additionally, its heavy on the supply, with all units being 2 supply and no AoE. It relied on the fact that zerg gain utter unit dominance (but can't attack unless you have drops) that lets zerg expand and get enough resources for a fast tech switch when the composition inevitably dies. If zergs didn't hit the proper timing for ultra/broodlord/baneling then there wasn't much they could do due to their unit composition and lack of transition.
With a game that focuses so heavily on unit composition, zergs were basically catering to the Protoss deathball such that the protoss didn't have to adjust their composition. Once HT were added to the mix in a timely fashion, the situation became pretty dim.
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On May 08 2011 16:17 Amarkov wrote:
So Carmine's being kind of a dick about it, but he's somewhat right.
What you have to realize is that we're not being deliberately unhelpful. We cannot help you if you want to learn to play more strategically in gold league, because we simply do not know proper gold league strategy. I know what to do about mutas in a diamond or masters game; cannons discourage mutas, blink stalkers punish greedy mutas, and amoving your army into his base punishes overproducing mutas.
But I know literally nothing about how to best deal with mutas in a gold level game. I imagine that one of the above solutions would work decently, but I don't know that, because games in gold league are fundamentally different. It may be that you don't have good enough blink stalker control for that to be an effective counter, or it may be that your opponents have bad enough muta control that it's all you need. Maybe your opponents are macroing well enough that you can't reflexively all-in when you see 30 mutas, and maybe you're macroing well enough that you can all-in when you see 7. High level players can tell you what we'd do in such-and-such situation, but it's important for you to realize that, it doesn't necessarily apply at all. Any strategy you get is going to fail in some situation where it should succeed, and there won't be anything we can tell you but "well, you have to have better mechanics.
Again, though, try to ignore him. He's saying what I'm saying in the most abrasive and least helpful way possible.
It's because there really is no strategy in gold league. Painuser put it very well on that show with DJ wheat, Idra, and Incontrol (I think inside the game or something). You can have plenty of cool ideas, builds, strategies, plans, etc, but if you don't have the mechanics to pull them off its completely useless. If you want to improve you need to improve the basic mechanics up to diamond level, or else you simply can't execute what you want to execute. That's why I find it a bit silly that the OP and many ppl helping him are focused so heavily on strategy and specific things like asserting map control or scaling your production buildings or w/e. This guys basic mechanics are simply terrible, and trying to improve anything except those mechanics right now isn't productive in my opinion.
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The way to stop that Zerg aggression is to get a forge ASAP, and i mean RIGHT after your nexus when you get 150 minerals. Also get the gateway after the forge to finish the wall off and put a cannon right as your forge finishes. You should get the cannon up in time and have 1 zealot 8 sentries and + 1 or 2 stalkers. You need to pull off good forcefields and its fairly easy to stop. I have a near 100% winrate vs it now.
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On May 09 2011 00:33 creamwolf wrote:
The way to stop that Zerg aggression is to get a forge ASAP, and i mean RIGHT after your nexus when you get 150 minerals. Also get the gateway after the forge to finish the wall off and put a cannon right as your forge finishes. You should get the cannon up in time and have 1 zealot 8 sentries and + 1 or 2 stalkers. You need to pull off good forcefields and its fairly easy to stop. I have a near 100% winrate vs it now.
I disagree. The push this Zerg did was really bad. Ironing out the build order a little, actually using chrono boost, not stockpiling that much money, and proper forcefield control would have been more than enough to crush that. If the Zerg is a higher level Zerg and does a well-refined roach / ling all in or something then yea you probably need the forge, but in this case it could have easily been held off
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you shouldnt say that strategy is nonexistant in lower levels. strategy is involved but at a lower complexity level than at masters. you can't just call a student unteachable simply because he's in 1st grade.
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I consider this game to be about efficiency.
The higher you go the more efficient everyone is at executing their builds of choice. (some are easier than others.)
the only exception would probably be the depths of bronze.
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On May 09 2011 01:16 JiYan wrote:
you shouldnt say that strategy is nonexistant in lower levels. strategy is involved but at a lower complexity level than at masters. you can't just call a student unteachable simply because he's in 1st grade.
You're not going to teach a student in the 1st grade algebra, matrices, calculus, vectors, and trig. because to do those you need to have the basics of math: multiplication, division, addition, subtraction. He's not unteachable, but you need to teach him the fundementals otherwise its kinda useless to go further.
Similarly, at gold league you really need to start learning mechanics because any strategy you attempt or thoughts your have are going to be meaningless until you're good enough with the basics to actually execute them.
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youre making a statement that goes along the lines of "there is no math in 1st-4th grade. improve your multiplication and division until 5th grade and then you can learn trig"
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On May 09 2011 04:09 JiYan wrote:
youre making a statement that goes along the lines of "there is no math in 1st-4th grade. improve your multiplication and division until 5th grade and then you can learn trig"
That's basically true lol. You focus on addition subtraction multiplication and division in the earlier grades until you get a good enough grasp of them to start moving to more complicated things (algebra or something)
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I'm not going to go in terms of strategy/mechanics, because if you watch your replay it should be pretty clear what you need to work on.
A mindset that will really help you is "I suck." It's pretty damn simple, and it is a realization that will help you improve. Instead of thinking that your basic skills are "fine", and that what is holding you back is "metagame" and "strategies", you just need to realize it is your execution and basic skills that are holding you back.
The reason 4 gate gets you to diamond is because fourgate is easy to execute in a competent manner; anything works well from bronze to plat as long as you do it in a competent manner. 4 gate is the most basic of these. This applies to most rushes; they are easy to execute competently, and compared to what other people in lower leagues do, they are done much more cleanly. Thus, they work.
Trying to play a standard game competently is much more difficult, and realizing you are bad at playing standard is essential to knowing you need to work on it.
Sorry if it is harsh, but it is the truth. If this was BW, you'd be going on battlenet and joining random melee matches, and just getting your ass handed to you over and over. You'd know "wow i suck". Blizzard sort of helps people's self esteem with points and leagues, so it is harder for peopel to realize they are bad.
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On May 08 2011 16:17 Amarkov wrote:
So Carmine's being kind of a dick about it, but he's somewhat right.
What you have to realize is that we're not being deliberately unhelpful. We cannot help you if you want to learn to play more strategically in gold league, because we simply do not know proper gold league strategy. I know what to do about mutas in a diamond or masters game; cannons discourage mutas, blink stalkers punish greedy mutas, and amoving your army into his base punishes overproducing mutas.
But I know literally nothing about how to best deal with mutas in a gold level game. I imagine that one of the above solutions would work decently, but I don't know that, because games in gold league are fundamentally different. It may be that you don't have good enough blink stalker control for that to be an effective counter, or it may be that your opponents have bad enough muta control that it's all you need. Maybe your opponents are macroing well enough that you can't reflexively all-in when you see 30 mutas, and maybe you're macroing well enough that you can all-in when you see 7. High level players can tell you what we'd do in such-and-such situation, but it's important for you to realize that, it doesn't necessarily apply at all. Any strategy you get is going to fail in some situation where it should succeed, and there won't be anything we can tell you but "well, you have to have better mechanics.
Again, though, try to ignore him. He's saying what I'm saying in the most abrasive and least helpful way possible.
I'm also not trying to be a dick, but what you are saying has literally NOTHING to do with what I'm having trouble with. My guess is you popped into this topic without having read anything on the first page, and jumped right into the debates. In fact the only thing you even commented correctly upon was my being in gold league... Thanks for being such a big help though... I'm sure I'll be much more prepared for Muta Harass now... (lol)... Muta's have nothing to do with my problem, so making your wall of text trying to help me with something I have no problem handling was quite... useless.
I'd like a mod to close this post, if possible please... I've gotten the help I need from the people who are actually willing to help and not just say "You are in gold, get better", and the arguments that spawned from nowhere are very counter-productive. I didn't make this post to spark debates on balance and have people spew garbage that isn't helpful at all just because I'm not in masters league like they are... I made it to get help on a very specific issue I'm having trouble with.
People are taking the title of this topic completely out of context, as well. All I meant with the "Trend Change" choice of words is that I've noticed zergs playing quite differently recently, and I'm having some trouble dealing with it. This post in no means was an attempt at saying ALL Zergs of ALL skill levels are doing a 2base roach allin... So stop treating it like I'm spreading misinformation around the forums about the current PvZ metagame.
I've gotten the help I need... so THANK YOU to the people who were ACTUALLY helpful. I played a 15 game marathon last night and won 3/5 of my PvZ's, so that alone is already a HUGE improvement.
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On May 09 2011 06:45 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:17 Amarkov wrote:
So Carmine's being kind of a dick about it, but he's somewhat right.
What you have to realize is that we're not being deliberately unhelpful. We cannot help you if you want to learn to play more strategically in gold league, because we simply do not know proper gold league strategy. I know what to do about mutas in a diamond or masters game; cannons discourage mutas, blink stalkers punish greedy mutas, and amoving your army into his base punishes overproducing mutas.
But I know literally nothing about how to best deal with mutas in a gold level game. I imagine that one of the above solutions would work decently, but I don't know that, because games in gold league are fundamentally different. It may be that you don't have good enough blink stalker control for that to be an effective counter, or it may be that your opponents have bad enough muta control that it's all you need. Maybe your opponents are macroing well enough that you can't reflexively all-in when you see 30 mutas, and maybe you're macroing well enough that you can all-in when you see 7. High level players can tell you what we'd do in such-and-such situation, but it's important for you to realize that, it doesn't necessarily apply at all. Any strategy you get is going to fail in some situation where it should succeed, and there won't be anything we can tell you but "well, you have to have better mechanics.
Again, though, try to ignore him. He's saying what I'm saying in the most abrasive and least helpful way possible. I'm also not trying to be a dick, but what you are saying has literally NOTHING to do with what I'm having trouble with. My guess is you popped into this topic without having read anything on the first page, and jumped right into the debates. In fact the only thing you even commented correctly upon was my being in gold league... Thanks for being such a big help though... I'm sure I'll be much more prepared for Muta Harass now... (lol)... Muta's have nothing to do with my problem, so making your wall of text trying to help me with something I have no problem handling was quite... useless. I'd like a mod to close this post, if possible please... I've gotten the help I need from the people who are actually willing to help and not just say "You are in gold, get better", and the arguments that spawned from nowhere are very counter-productive. I didn't make this post to spark debates on balance and have people spew garbage that isn't helpful at all just because I'm not in masters league like they are... I made it to get help on a very specific issue I'm having trouble with. People are taking the title of this topic completely out of context, as well. All I meant with the "Trend Change" choice of words is that I've noticed zergs playing quite differently recently, and I'm having some trouble dealing with it. This post in no means was an attempt at saying ALL Zergs of ALL skill levels are doing a 2base roach allin... So stop treating it like I'm spreading misinformation around the forums about the current PvZ metagame. I've gotten the help I need... so THANK YOU to the people who were ACTUALLY helpful. I played a 15 game marathon last night and won 3/5 of my PvZ's, so that alone is already a HUGE improvement.
Look at this kid! Even when you try to explain it nicely he snaps at you. That's why I got mean in the first place, to mimic his response. My first post was very straightforward and nice, but he was all like "herp derp blind leading blind!"
To PR4Y: There is no need to be afraid to post because of fear of being ridiculed for being gold. You do need to learn some humility though, as most that have been gold and are now a higher level will tell you that they won games by learning better mechanics and understanding the game better...not dealing with specific gold strategy A. (watch him snap at me)
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On May 09 2011 06:45 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 16:17 Amarkov wrote:
So Carmine's being kind of a dick about it, but he's somewhat right.
What you have to realize is that we're not being deliberately unhelpful. We cannot help you if you want to learn to play more strategically in gold league, because we simply do not know proper gold league strategy. I know what to do about mutas in a diamond or masters game; cannons discourage mutas, blink stalkers punish greedy mutas, and amoving your army into his base punishes overproducing mutas.
But I know literally nothing about how to best deal with mutas in a gold level game. I imagine that one of the above solutions would work decently, but I don't know that, because games in gold league are fundamentally different. It may be that you don't have good enough blink stalker control for that to be an effective counter, or it may be that your opponents have bad enough muta control that it's all you need. Maybe your opponents are macroing well enough that you can't reflexively all-in when you see 30 mutas, and maybe you're macroing well enough that you can all-in when you see 7. High level players can tell you what we'd do in such-and-such situation, but it's important for you to realize that, it doesn't necessarily apply at all. Any strategy you get is going to fail in some situation where it should succeed, and there won't be anything we can tell you but "well, you have to have better mechanics.
Again, though, try to ignore him. He's saying what I'm saying in the most abrasive and least helpful way possible. I'm also not trying to be a dick, but what you are saying has literally NOTHING to do with what I'm having trouble with. My guess is you popped into this topic without having read anything on the first page, and jumped right into the debates. In fact the only thing you even commented correctly upon was my being in gold league... Thanks for being such a big help though... I'm sure I'll be much more prepared for Muta Harass now... (lol)... Muta's have nothing to do with my problem, so making your wall of text trying to help me with something I have no problem handling was quite... useless. I'd like a mod to close this post, if possible please... I've gotten the help I need from the people who are actually willing to help and not just say "You are in gold, get better", and the arguments that spawned from nowhere are very counter-productive. I didn't make this post to spark debates on balance and have people spew garbage that isn't helpful at all just because I'm not in masters league like they are... I made it to get help on a very specific issue I'm having trouble with. People are taking the title of this topic completely out of context, as well. All I meant with the "Trend Change" choice of words is that I've noticed zergs playing quite differently recently, and I'm having some trouble dealing with it. This post in no means was an attempt at saying ALL Zergs of ALL skill levels are doing a 2base roach allin... So stop treating it like I'm spreading misinformation around the forums about the current PvZ metagame. I've gotten the help I need... so THANK YOU to the people who were ACTUALLY helpful. I played a 15 game marathon last night and won 3/5 of my PvZ's, so that alone is already a HUGE improvement.
No, you don't understand. I wrote a big post reviewing your game on the last page to try and make this point but you still don't seem to grasp it. Here, I'll be as blunt as possible, even if it means being rude (keep in mind im trying to help, I wouldn't read ur post, watch the rep, and give u advice if I wasn't actually trying to help you improve) :
You're terrible. Not sorta bad, not "need improvement in some aspects". You're really really really fucking bad. You're gold league, and gold league is terrible. Why are you so terrible? Because your mechanics are awful.
That's the point carmine and I, and the post ur responding to, are trying to make. Our posts have everything to do with what you're having trouble with, but you yourself don't realize what you're having trouble with. The most usefil advice IS "you're gold, get better".
See what you lack isn't an ability to deal with Zerg aggresion, 2 base timings, etc. You're bad simply because your basic mechanics (macro, micro, scouting) are severely lacking in every way. The point we're trying to make is that when you have gold level mechanics, its unproductive to improve anything except for those mechanics because when your mechanics are terrible, you can't execute the ideas and strategies you want to execute. Watching the replay, I can trace every reason you lost that game to your mechanics. You executed the build terribly, you didn't use chronos at all, you microed terribly, and you stockpiled money. It had nothing to do with how the Zerg was playing, it was all on your faulty execution.
So to tl;dr, you're not going to improve to the extent you want to improve until you can accept that you suck and work on what actually needs to be worked on ( YOUR MECHANICS)
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Wtf is going on with this thread? I see a perfectly good OP, one of the better [H] OPs I've seen. The analysis is very detailed, and you can tell a lot of effort was put into it. Then I see a lot of troll posts saying "lolol you're in gold you suck."
Here's how things work around here:
1. OP posts a good OP asking for help
2. You watch the replay and tell him how he can improve
Is that so hard to do? Why do you find it necessary to berate him on mechanics and being in gold league and whatever else you can nitpick? It's completely possible to post good advice without being a dick. It's also possible to write the advice in a way that will grab the OP's attention without being a dick. You can even write in bold/caps "HEY OP, YOU SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS ADVICE IF YOU WANT TO IMPROVE BECAUSE IT'S WHAT'S HOLDING YOU BACK." But what kills me is when you write gems like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219373¤tpage=4#79 under the guise of "I'm so much better than you. You suck why are you even wasting my time with a thread like this?" (The post itself wasn't even that bad in that respect, but it encourages the thread to derail into a discussion about gold mechanics, which is exactly what we don't want). I mean, you and I know the importance of clean execution of a build order - that it makes the difference between leagues. But not everyone does. It may not even have crossed their mind that this is the case. But that doesn't mean you have to be a dick to them about it.
I'm going to close this thread soon because enough good advice has been given and so many of you feel the need to be pretentious assholes and derail the thread. Since this is the first time I've had to close a thread like this, I'll let it slide. But in the future, I'm going to hand out extended Strategy Forum bans. And if you want to be unbanned, you'll have to beat me in a BoX, and I'll edit in all said reps of you losing into whatever condescending post you make with detailed analysis of why you lost.
It doesn't matter what league a player is in. Don't be a condescending dick.
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On May 07 2011 11:57 Swazi wrote:
I'm a high-diamond low masters player and i have been having a lot of success with a 2gate stargate expo against zerg where i push out with around 4 phoenix at 7 minutes while taking my expansion with a forge 3-4 zealots 1-2 sentries and 1-3 stalkers depending on the pressure im taking.
What i pretty much do is open up standard
9 pylon
12 gate
cycore asap
zealot
early second gas
stalker
i throw down my stargate once the stalker gets out to kill the drone scout and patrol for the overlord scout. i chrono boost out 4 phoenixes and push out (4 is enough to one shot drones and kill queens in one lift) i do as much damage as possible while taking my natural and throwing down a forge for cannons (detection) and upgrades. I keep making phoenix depending on how successful i am being,I transition into what i need whether it be colossus, lots of gates or what have you. I have had no trouble holding off roach pushes because i kill so many overlords and queens usually their push is very delayed. If it is a 7 roach rush you can easily chrono boost out a VR and hold it off.
If my stargate gets scouted by a zerg because i forget to watch for the scouting OV i can cancel stargate and easily transition into 3 gate expo or 4 gate heavy pressure (neither which they are expecting)
I have had very high success against zerg and have been beating masters opponents. I would say give this build a try i have had a lot of success with it.
P.S. the one build that kicked my ass when i did this was a hyrda drop because i reacted very poorly i haven't had much practice against this build but i make sure to patrol my phoenixes for overlords if i am not harassing the zerg base so i can stop a drop before it happens.
This worked for me until a couple days ago. Now zerg just throws down spore colonies as soon as they see that you're not early expanding and you're not revealing your strategy. Shuts down both DT expand as well as phoenix expand.
The spanishwa build suggests 4 queens, which also shuts down phoenix if the zerg doesn't overreact (chases the phoenix with his queens).
Forge fast expand doesn't work too well for me either except on the few maps that happen to allow it.
And no, zerg isn't strong in just gold right now; I'm in diamond, having no trouble against toss or terran but I haven't won a game against zerg in a long, long time.
Frustrated 
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3 gate expand is still viable and the best build to learn PvZ. Just delay your robot if you see roaches earlier than normal. Standard Zerg player builds Roach den while transitioning to lair.
I really don't recommend these gimmicky builds such as fake expo/DT rush. 2 base Roach/Speedling timing attack is only ONE possible response to a 3 gate FE protoss. If the zerg player takes a quick third while teching to lair, it will be an autoloss for you.
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On May 09 2011 10:37 Saracen wrote:Wtf is going on with this thread? I see a perfectly good OP, one of the better [H] OPs I've seen. The analysis is very detailed, and you can tell a lot of effort was put into it. Then I see a lot of troll posts saying "lolol you're in gold you suck." Here's how things work around here: 1. OP posts a good OP asking for help 2. You watch the replay and tell him how he can improve Is that so hard to do? Why do you find it necessary to berate him on mechanics and being in gold league and whatever else you can nitpick? It's completely possible to post good advice without being a dick. It's also possible to write the advice in a way that will grab the OP's attention without being a dick. You can even write in bold/caps "HEY OP, YOU SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS ADVICE IF YOU WANT TO IMPROVE BECAUSE IT'S WHAT'S HOLDING YOU BACK." But what kills me is when you write gems like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219373¤tpage=4#79 under the guise of "I'm so much better than you. You suck why are you even wasting my time with a thread like this?" (The post itself wasn't even that bad in that respect, but it encourages the thread to derail into a discussion about gold mechanics, which is exactly what we don't want). I mean, you and I know the importance of clean execution of a build order - that it makes the difference between leagues. But not everyone does. It may not even have crossed their mind that this is the case. But that doesn't mean you have to be a dick to them about it. I'm going to close this thread soon because enough good advice has been given and so many of you feel the need to be pretentious assholes and derail the thread. Since this is the first time I've had to close a thread like this, I'll let it slide. But in the future, I'm going to hand out extended Strategy Forum bans. And if you want to be unbanned, you'll have to beat me in a BoX, and I'll edit in all said reps of you losing into whatever condescending post you make with detailed analysis of why you lost. It doesn't matter what league a player is in. Don't be a condescending dick.
This is the greatest post I have ever seen and restores my faith in humanity.
I just wanted to emphasis the importance of trying to hide a scout probe if you go in and see that roach warren or better yet a decent number of roaches then you know what you are in for. A lot of zergs lately seem to like to also spam it with a bunch of lings in the hopes of getting you to cancel the nexus as well. In this situation make good use of your forcefields, just wanted you to know that as it is also pretty popular.
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On May 05 2011 08:44 Drock wrote:
PvZ is by far my wost matchup. I'm a plat player and have recently been losing to silver level zergs. I win probably90% of my PvP and probably 75% of my PvT's (although i rarely ever play against T's lately, literally 1 out of my last 20 games was against a T.
Honestly, I just gg right off the bat most times against Z as I just cannot beat them. If I manage to make it to the mid game (only if they don't 2base all-in) they then switch to muta's then it's gg for me.
Super frustrating. I just don't have the apm to defend Muta harrass, even if I have blink stalkers. And they always get muta's way before I even think about HT's. And honestly, I hate using HT's, they take forever to tech to.
I honestly don't know why Z is always bitching about imbalance.
Silver level zergs? I had a silver level zerg go1-base ultralisk on me. Either you're really bad at PvZ or you're running into the greatest silver players in the world (Or you're the king of hyperbole). I'd like to see some replays of that though. Never seen a silver zerg do anything but stupid strats.
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On May 10 2011 17:16 MayorITC wrote:
3 gate expand is still viable and the best build to learn PvZ. Just delay your robot if you see roaches earlier than normal. Standard Zerg player builds Roach den while transitioning to lair.
Not sure I understand this one. Delay the robo if you see roaches early? Wouldn't you want a fast robo for burrow detection and scouting?
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You should have a cannon that will keep burrowed roaches from walking into your base. If you see roaches early, you have to prepare for a roach/ling allin, and a robo is just too much of an investment when you're trying to defend that.
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EPT
