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On April 30 2011 03:27 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:17 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide  . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^. You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it Yes, I do dronescout on 9. I find that finding early pool openings on smaller maps like xel naga caverns or sometimes even a lucky scout in cross position shakuras beats banging my head into a brick wall after being hardcountered by an early pool because I went blind hatch first. The drone scout is mainly to make sure if it is OK to expand, or to check when his buildings go down. Then I can respond accordingly by sneaking out one or two more drones than he has while bashing our forces together. A one drone lead in ZvZ speedling baneling wars makes such a big difference since you can tech to a roach warren sooner. And losing a drone or two doesn't mean you are too far behind yet. I would disagree. A 9 scout puts you really behind and throws off build timings like 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. In a mirror match up, I wouldn't want to put myself behind every game just to be safe. Also, its not auto lose vs an early pool depending what early pool you are talking about (and depending on which map).
Puts you really behind? I would beg to differ.
The mining deficiency you get in the early game you make up by getting one drone more than the opponent in onebase vs onebase situations.
The 'you are behind' we are talking about is like roughly 2 to 3 seconds. It hardly makes any difference whatsoever unless your opponent has his build mapped out to the millisecond in efficiency.
You can easily make up lost drones by being smart, sharking with large groups of roaches for example, or feigning runby's with zerglings.
And hell, if you scout a 15 hatch first, you just go 16 hatch and you have one drone extra than he has at that very moment, tada. It really isn't rocket science, you know from your own playing what makes you make units and what makes you make drones. If you start really thinking about when to drone and when to make units, you can easily gain economy over a less smart player.
In ZvZ, the opening is just the paper. What you make later makes or breaks the painting, not the paper you chose.
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Great guide...wish there was one for terran @@
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On April 30 2011 03:27 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:17 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^. You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it Yes, I do dronescout on 9. I find that finding early pool openings on smaller maps like xel naga caverns or sometimes even a lucky scout in cross position shakuras beats banging my head into a brick wall after being hardcountered by an early pool because I went blind hatch first. The drone scout is mainly to make sure if it is OK to expand, or to check when his buildings go down. Then I can respond accordingly by sneaking out one or two more drones than he has while bashing our forces together. A one drone lead in ZvZ speedling baneling wars makes such a big difference since you can tech to a roach warren sooner. And losing a drone or two doesn't mean you are too far behind yet. I would disagree. A 9 scout puts you really behind and throws off build timings like 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. In a mirror match up, I wouldn't want to put myself behind every game just to be safe. Also, its not auto lose vs an early pool depending what early pool you are talking about (and depending on which map).
The reason for the drone scout is actually stated in the guide(section 1.3) and yes a drone scout will put you behind more than if you don't scout. It's just as you say, you sacrifice abit of enconomy(not in any way gamebreaking) to get safety, and you need safety to play a solid game. I agree that you don't need to drone scout with 15 hatch on certain maps but I think it's alot easier to defend cheese when you are prepared and know it's comming.
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Thank you so much for this guide. Really helpful.
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On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches.
Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited.
I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it.
Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players.
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I think an alternative to drone scouting is rushing for a second queen and put drones back on gas if you see they went pool first; if then you see a baneling nest with your lings you can cancel the hatch, throw down a spine and a roach warren. You should be able to survive the banelings until your roaches are out, and then claim your natural. You will be at a slight econ disadvantage because typically he will be able to get his natural before you, but not by too much, and you are ahead in tech. This is how I prefer to do it because 1 base baneling is the only thing you need to worry when going speed expand and a drone scout is not reliable enough (you might either face banelings when you don't expect them, or he might tech up quicker than you anticipated so your own baneling allin will fail).
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Wow seems cool, good job Vandroy!
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That's a great guide. Thanks for the effort.
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On May 01 2011 03:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches. Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited. I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it. Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players.
Cool that you like the guide ^^, but can you really be that exploited by your drone scouting decisions, since you still follow up with zergling scouts shortly after your drone dies? Sure the opponent can take drones off or put them on gas when the drone scout dies but your first couple of zerglins should be able to see how much gas he has mined and also what tech he's going for and then you can readjust your build after that.
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appreciate the time you put into this guide. I didn't get a lot out of it on my end, but I think a lot of people will. This is well-written, informative and covers all the bases without being preachy.
Thanks again for posting.
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Thanks for posting! I think it will help me a lot.
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awesome guide! will read the rest asap! thank you!
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Hi vandroy! :D Nice guide, but it won't stop me from beating you at Birdie 
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On May 02 2011 08:15 Seala wrote:Hi vandroy! :D Nice guide, but it won't stop me from beating you at Birdie
Hehe I'm glad you liked it, we will see about Birdie though because I'm bringing my A game ^^
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Really nice guide Think I am going to use this to atleast partly relearn my zvz
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really nice guide, helped me out a lot with my worst MU!! big shout outs, keep up your good work, i wouldnt be really angry if you do more of this great work
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A nice guide, thank you for taking time writing it
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On May 01 2011 21:04 Vandroy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 03:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches. Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited. I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it. Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players. Cool that you like the guide ^^, but can you really be that exploited by your drone scouting decisions, since you still follow up with zergling scouts shortly after your drone dies? Sure the opponent can take drones off or put them on gas when the drone scout dies but your first couple of zerglins should be able to see how much gas he has mined and also what tech he's going for and then you can readjust your build after that.
The problem with zergling scouts is you can't depend on them to scout gas/tech in the main on most maps. Large ramps can be more difficult but any small-medium size ramp should blocked if your opponent is playing defensively.
It's not uncommon for me to get steam rolled in vs top 8 masters/grandmaster zvz players if I make an assumption about tech based on their gas and then can't zergling scout. I agree with darkforce though that this kind of metagame isn't common until upper tiers of play.
Two scenarios I can think of where I've been at a disadvantage because of this:
1) I scout opponent getting 100 gas then pulling drones and assuming I can do a speedling expand against another speedling expand. Opponent actually went right back on gas after my drone scout left and instead went speedling/baneling.
2) I scout opponent not stopping at 100 gas and assuming bling/speedling get roaches off 1 base, and find opponent stopped getting gas the moment I left his base and actually did a speedling expand.
Besides seeing a very early pool or trying to block a hatch, I see early drone scouts as pretty useless. The only information you can depend on after lings hatch is what you gain from seeing what a zerg is showing at their front and what you can infer from overlords (drone saturation mostly). Getting zerglings in a base to scout should always been seen as bonus and never depended on.
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EPT
