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Hello I'm Vandroy from team Property and this is my first guide so I hope it's up to TL's standards. English is not my native language so there might be some spelling errors. I hope you enjoy reading my take on ZvZ and please comment if you like it or wonder about anything! I will be busy this weekend but I can add more replays after then if people are interested.
Table Of Contents
0.0 Introduction
1.0 Opening Build Order
1.1 Gameplan
1.2 Flowchart
1.3 Scouting
2.0 Early game
2.1 Drone scouting responses
2.2 Hatchery before pool
2.3 Gas/Pool
2.4 Early pool
2.5 Creep spread
3.0 Mid-game
3.1 Upgrades
3.2 Unit composition
3.3 Mid-game tactics/strategies
4.0 Late game
5.0 Replays
6.0 References
7.0 Closing words
0.0 Introduction
Recently I have been having trouble in the ZvZ match-up feeling like every match is somewhat of a coin flip and this was something I wanted to change. I wrote this guide to help my self get a better understanding of the match-up and also to share my thoughts at the same time, perhaps it will help someone else too. This guide aims to show a solid and safe macro based ZvZ relying on good scouting and knowledge of the match-up.
1.0 Opening Build Order
You basically have two openings to choose between if you want to play a solid macro style in ZvZ and those are either one of the hatch first builds(most common is 15hatch) or one of the gas/pool builds(most common is 14gas/14pool). After some thought I chose to go with the 14gas/14pool build. Both openings have their pros and cons so lets take a closer look as to why I ended up with 14gas/14pool opening instead of the hatch first one.
Hatchery first
+Strong economy
+High production
-Weak against early pool(even though it's possible to defend most stuff)
-No map control in the early game
-Low to no scouting possibilities in the early game
Gas/Pool
+Safe against early pool
+Good flexibility, can adapt to your opponent easily
+Good scouting possibility
+Map control
-Slightly worse economy than hatch first
-Less larva than hatch first
As previously stated both openings are good and stable, but I like the Gas/Pool one better just because it gives you so much more control and flexibility. If you are going for a hatch first you're going to be in the dark for while, not knowing if he threw down a baneling nest or not, droneing or not, whilst the one with speedlings has full knowledge of what you do.
Build order:
Depending on map, drone scout between 10-15 supply
14 gas
14 pool
16 overlord
16 queen
@100 gas zergling speed
18 lings
19 lings
1.1 Gameplan
The general plan is to go in to the mid-game in a very all around safe way with your economy on par or ahead of your opponents. To do this you have to vigilant with your speedlings so you don't get behind in drones or just straight up die in the early game. Once you have passed from early to mid-game you start upgrades, defend and/or be aggressive with roaches, and later infestors. From there you should aim to take a relatively fast third base as soon as you feel safe, and then add hydras to your composition once you have 6 gases and can support it.
1.2 Flowchart
A small flowchart to summarize the gameplan of the match-up, it's hard to be more specific due to ZvZ being so dynamic. Right click and choose view picture or view it on another tab to see the whole flowchart.
1.3 Scouting
Scouting is extremely important in ZvZ and good scouting is the key to success even more so than in other match-ups. E.g. you face a 15 hatch, he defends your initial agression, you back off having safely expanded meanwhile you were at his front. Now in this scenario 2 injects pop for your opponent and he has 2 choices, to make ~16 lings or ~8 drones(+/- a few for the larva that he already had) or something in between, and if you're active with your speedlings doing pokes and runbys you can get a good feeling what he's doing and then repsond appropriately, otherwise you you'll die or get too far behind economically.
Drone scout
Before reading this I would like add that everything seen with the drone scout can be manipulated by your opponent. You should always try to confirm what you have scouted by scouting again(e.g. with lings) and then re-evaluate your response if your opponent has changed his build.
Depending on the map, the drone scout should come somewhere between 10 and 15 in supply. There are three things to look for with your drones scout that will decide whether you stop mining gas at 100 and expand or keep mining it and delay the expand.
- The first one is a hatchery at his natural, if it's there you know that he went hatch first and you can go ahead with your speedling expand.
- The second one is an early pool, made at 10 supply or below, this should be no problem to defend with 14gas/14pool opening.
- Third and last thing to look for now that you know he's not hatching first or early pooling is whether he's going to keep mining gas after 100. If he doesn't continue mining he will most likely go for a speedling expand. If he does continue mining then you can't know if it's for roaches or banelings until you get your lings to his base(assuming he doesn't put down his tech before he has killed your drone).
So in conclusion you want to scout at a time so you can decide whether to take your drones off gas after 100 or not. If you for some reason don't see his base before you have to make this decision(sometimes Tal'darim feels so big) you can compromise and keep 1-2 drones on gas until you see what you need. This will give you a later expand should you face a hatch first but leaves you ready to throw down a baneling nest or roach warren against anything else.
Speedling pokes and runbys
This is something you want to do through the entire game, even in the late game. Speedlings are the best tool you have to find out about his tech path, drone count and army size. If you have map control, an active group of speedlings outside his natural also provide the threat of a backstab that your opponents has to worry about while you at the same time get alot of information. If you don't have map control for some reason(e.g. you made drones while he made some more lings) you can still utilize just a few speedlings to do runbys into the opponents base. In the middle to late game a small force of 10-20 lings can keep good check on how many bases your opponent is at and also have the possibility to deny any bases going up.
Slow overlord sacrifice
ZvZ is a very tight match-up and losing an overlord early can make a big difference. In many scenarios speedlings make a better job at scouting and therefore overlord sacrifices are not used that much in ZvZ. The only time you should need to sacrifice and overlord is if your opponent goes for a one base strategy while blocking his ramp with either lings or most commonly roaches. From there you can face a few different strategies such as fast muta, fast roach speed with +1 or burrow, in base hatch mass ling, or roach rush with speedling reinforcement. They can all be scouted with an overlord since queens don't kill them fast at all, and after that you just have prepare accordingly.
Overseer
Going into the mid it will be harder and harder to get information with your speedlings and therefore, if you feel safe, one of the first things you should do after lair has finished is to get an overseer. This overseer will tell you how big his army is, what tech path he has chosen, how his upgrades are and whether he's upgrading from one or two evolution chambers. When you have scouted your opponents base you may choose, if your overseer has enough hp left, to drop an contaminate on either his evo chamber or hatchery(more on this later). Do not let your overseer die, it's very good to have detection and at this stage of the game you don't want spend another 100gas for a new one.
Xel'naga towers
They are ofcourse good to have and you should send small zergling forces to try and keep control over them, but it's more important to have good overlord placement.
Overlord placement
The overlord placement in ZvZ is also a form of scouting, although a more passive one it's equally important. With your overlords in the early game you should try to make a "vison highway" with them from your base to your opponents, with one overlord keeping check to see when the expansion is taken. Be aware though, some players like to walk out with a queen to try and snipe an overlord. Other places that are important to keep check on with your overlords are expansions, attack paths to your expansions, your base(against nyduses) and keep at least one close to your opponent for scouting purposes.
2.0 Early game
The early game is where alot of ZvZs are decided, and it's also the most volatile part, one mistake here can cost you the entire game. The most important things at this stage of the game are hitting your injects and scouting. As with the 14gas/14pool you don't have any larvae to spare, in contrast to hatch first, it's crucial that you don't miss any injects at the start of the game. Ofcourse injects are important through out the game but it won't kill you to miss one at the 15 minute mark.
2.1 Drone scouting responses
In this section I will go more in depth into the three different scenarios from scouting with your drone. There are many different ways you can go in ZvZ and I will provide solid reasoning as to why I have chosen the follow-up that I have. Because every game differs after the 20 food mark there won't be any exact build orders to follow up with, they will be more like guidelines. E.g., you're opting to expand with roaches and your opponent decides to tech lair while only makeing 1 pair of zerglings, then you skimp on your army to get your expand faster because you know he can't pressure you.
2.2 Hatchery before pool
Upon seeing this build you want make sure to stop mining gas at 100 because you are going to be expanding behind speedling pressure. The speedling expand is a popular build(there is even a recommended thread about it, see references), some people like to use it only against hatch first, others use it against every build.
The idea behinde the build is to pressure your opponent with lings while you get your expansion up. You will only be making lings with your larva after you started your queen and this will force your opponent to also make units or he will just get overrun. The advantage you have in this situation is that you will have speedlings much faster than him, giving you the map control.
You also have all the scouting info you need(while your opponent is in the dark), if you see roches or spines you can safley drone abit, but if you see only alot of lings then you need to be wary of his lingspeed kicking in after a while. He also doesn't know if you have a baneling nest on the way or not, so defending with only alot of lings is a risk on his side. That's why most people also use roach, spines or banelings(with delayed ling speed) to defend, which will give you some room get a better or equal economy.
Key things to think about is to be very active with your speedlings, and to not miss any injects early on is crucial becuase you're already going to be larva starved as it is. You want to not drone up too much either and just die, the goal is to transition into roach/speedling on equal or slightly better economical footing as the opponent.
Generals build order guidelines:
Make zerglings until you are out of larva then expand at around ~22 food
Keep making zerglings and overlords(when needed) with all your larva
Start a queen when you have 150 minerals to spare
Put drones back on gas when you can support constant zergling/drone production.
Some people like to keep 1 drone on gas all the time from the start(Machine, see refrences) since you can sustain constant zergling production anyway. I choose keep none on gas to get the expansion and second queen up slightly quicker, and then put 2-3 drones back on gas sometime after the second queen has been started.
I would also like to point out that you can do the build order abit differently depending on things like map. If you are close position then you want make all larva into zerglings and only expand when you have 300+ minerals and no larva. This is becuase you can apply good pressure with those first zerglings on shorter distances while on longer once your opponents will have enough zerglings for you to do much before speed. Therefore on longer spawn(e.g. cross pos Tal'darim) you could make only 4-6 ling so you don't waste any larva and then expand on 19-20 food instead.
As with any ZvZ it all differs from match to match but your transition will have to come sometime after you've gotten your expansion up and running and also made some drones. When you can safely do this is a judgement call from game to game, don't forget that you can gain alot of information from your speedlings to make that judgement call easier.
2.3 Gas/Pool
This is probably the most common opening used in ZvZ because it's safe and flexible. From this opening you have 3 paths to choose between, they are speedling expand, speedling/banleing, or something with roaches. Your scouting drone will be able to find out if the stop mining gas(a.k.a. speedling expand) or not.
Speedling expand
Against this you want go for a normal one base baneling attack with a delayed expansion. This attack is really strong against the speedling expand build and will probably set you ahead in both tech and economy. When Sheth played a 1base baneling(with late expand)opening against speedling expand on 12 weeks with the pros he also completely crushed it(see references). The goal is to deny/kill his expansion while getting your own up and the same time. From there on you can transition into roaches and macro up, also be ready for some timing attack or all-in if he has not retaken his expansion.
As long as you focus on the goal of taking down his expansion and not to try and finish him by running banelings towards his drones or something similar, you will be fine. The trick is to guard your zerglings with banelings while they are killing the expansion. This means he can't engage with his own lings, he can't move down spines and roaches won't come out in time, letting you take the expansion down.
General build order guidelines:
Use all your larva for zerglings and keep 3 drones in gas
@50 gas baneling next
@~125gas take one drone of gas
Morph your first 5-6 banelings
Expand when you can while still constantly producing lings
If your opponent has superior mirco and somehow manages to defend with his speedling expand you're still not in bad shape. In the worst case scenario you won't kill his expansion but by then your own should be up and you can transition to roaches with banelings as defense and macro up.
1base baneling or roach
Against both these openings I have chosen to open roaches into expand smilar to what Machine showcased on 12 weeks with the pros(see references). Why I have chosen this is because it's safe against both a baneling and a roach opening and it lets you get up a relatively safe expansion. A drawback with this opening is that you have to sacrifice some map control, against a baneling opening, for safety. However you still have the speedling upgrade so can scout and recontest map control after you get your expansion up.
If your opponent opted to go for banelings he's probably going to either cancel his baneling nest or just build very few banelings when he sees your roach warren with his first couple of scouting lings. From there you want 6-7 roaches before you expand, this is so can protect your ramp and expansion without the risk of getting overrun by speedlings. In this situation your opponent can either choose to expand, or tech from one base(more on that shortly). If he expands you just go into macro mode from there and start getting that +1 attack for roaches asap. Here you must still be active with some speedlings so can see whether he's making an army or drones after expanding.
If your opponent went for a roach opening instead he will either be going for a similar expand as you or some one-base timing attack. In the first case you will be equal footing as you opponent and can go ahead getting the +1 attack for roaches and start to macro up while constantly scouting with your speedlings. The second case is similar to where someone going 1base banelings choose to tech instead of expanding after the initial aggression. Both builds will try to block their ramp to hide what strategy they are going for, so you need good knowledge what you can face and also when it's a good idea to sacrifice an overlord. The things your opponent can throw at you from 1base are the following:
- Roach push with speedling reinforcement/support
- An extra hatchery inbase into mass speedling
- Fast spire into expansion
- Roach push with speed and burrow
- Roach push with speed, burrow and +1 attack
There are many different ways to do these builds, some people like to expand when they move out, others start their expand when they see that the push isn't working. The later your opponent starts his expand the more all-in he is(even though his attack will be slightly stronger), and he will need to do some economical damage with his attack.
If you start teching to lair as soon as your queen pops from a 14gas/14pool it will finish at ~5.30 ingame time, which means that roach speed will be done at ~7.20 and spire at ~7.10 if you start it as soon as lair is done. Should your opponent choose to start lair immediately when his queen pops then you should be able to scout this with your first pair of lings since he won't have roaches out yet to block the ramp.
Some other timings are:
- Your hatch will be about 70% done at ~6.00 should you put it down at 26/34 with 3 roaches and 4 speedlings.
- Inbase hatch finishes at ~5.40 if you put it down still mining gas after speed and constanty produce zerglings from 14gas/pool.
- Five extra roaches pops(into a total of 8) from the first inject at ~5.30 and can move to your base being reinforced by speedlings.
I havn't played against inbase hatch much at all but I think you should be able to scout that with your first couple of lings or atleast guess it if tries to block his ramp with only lings. When you see and inbase hatch you want add more roaches to get that ball into critical mass and adding a baneling nest can be good if he put on a lot of pressure.
Knowing these timings, a good time to send in your overlord would be at around 5.40(which is when your hatch is abit more than halfway done) to see if he's going for some hatchery tech timing or lair timing. After you know what attack your opponent is going for all you have to do is make drones, roaches, speedlings and queens accordingly.
General build order guidelines:
16 queen
18 roach warren
17 lings
@100 gas zergling speed
Take one drone off gas
18 lings
19 overlord
19 roach
21 roach
23 roach
25 overlord
25 expansion
Note that against someone going straight for lair you can get away with throwing down your expand with only 1-2 roaches and also have time to make some drones. On the other hand against someone going for one base baneling you may need up to 7 roaches before you can safely expand. Getting your expand up before you opponent puts you ahead and as long you don't die(or lose too many drones) to any of the metioned above timings, you should be in a good position going into the mid-game. I would also like to add that 1-2 extra queens with transfuse are very cost efficient defensive units, so it can be a good idea build them to hold any of the pushes and also against mutas.
2.4 Early pool
When facing an early pool it comes down to good mirco and knowing what to do. You should however have the upper hand since you opened 14gas/14pool. A few things to think of are:
- save larva(make overlord at 14) to be able to make 4-6 lings as soon as the pool is done
- check your outer edges of the creep to detect any pre-building of spines
- take drones off gas(or keep them if you are really confident in your micro)
- make two control group with drones to be able to better mirco
If he tries to put down 1-2 spines with his lings, tell ~4 workers to attack each spine, the rest should still be able to take on the lings.
Against early pools with gas you are most likely going to face some fast banelings and to this you can either put down a roach warren asap after pool or go for spines. The key to comming out a head of this build is to split your drones so that he can't hit more than 2 at the same(it's not as hard as it sounds). If you can do that then all that's left is to clean up the few lings he has with roaches or lings and you will still be ahead in drones.
2.5 Creep spread
Creep spread is clearly not as important in ZvZ as in other match-up but it's still good enough that you want to do it. It gives you vision and increases the mobiblty of your queens and hydras by alot. I would however never trade a larva inject for a creep tumor in this match-up, so it would either have to be from bad injecting, extra queens, or early second queen(before expand is done). Extra queens are surprisingly good defensive units, being really cost effective with transfuse, demand no larva and cost only minerals. I think it's beneficial to get a couple of extra queens and also spread creep for any zerg.
3.0 Mid-game
On the contrary to what some people might believe, mid game ZvZ doesn't just have to be about sitting on your 2-3 bases and macroing up to your 200/200 army of the golden composition. In this part of the game there are many tactics and strategies to throw your opponent off and for you to gain the advantage without ever attacking head on(more on this in section 3.3). I the mid-game you also have access to alot better scouting possibilities with overlord speed, overseers and your good old speedlings. There is therefore no excuse to not knowing your opponents tech, army and amount of bases and when they go up.
A good idea in the mid-game is to look for timings where you can gain an advantage, e.g. if you started your upgrades before him in the early game you could attack just when your upgrades finish and then you'll have the upper hand with better upgrades in that timing window.
3.1 Upgrades
There are many good upgrades that you want to get, some are a must have while others are more a personal prefrence but lets first take a look at the attack and armor upgrades.
Here is table of the shots to kill for roaches vs roaches:
![[image loading]](http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8260/roachstats.jpg)
Looking at this table you can see that going armor or attack in a roach battle doesn't matter in the mid-game. However you can't discount that you will have lings, infestors and hydras(later on) since they are also affected by these upgrades. The question is really weather you want to go for attack -> armor -> attack or attack -> attack -> armor so lets take a closer look:
Assuming you start +2 ranged attack from a second evo chamber some time after you've started +1 armor the first one. This allows you to upgrade +2 armor simultaneously with +2 ranged attack while if you hade gone for +2 attack in the first evo chamber you'd have one evo chamber doing nothing becuase it has to wait for +1 armor to finish. This problem could be avoided by just timing +2 attack and +1 armor to start at the same but you don't always the have resources and opportunity to this.
Your lings will also benefit from the faster +armor while hydras and infested terrans will benefit from the faster +2 ranged attack. In the end it won't make or break the match and either one is fine, but e.g. if you're planning to go for an infestor runby you want get the faster +2 ranged attack.
Other upgrades
There are a few lair tech upgrades that you should aim to get every game and those are overlord speed, burrow, roach speed and hydra range. These upgrades give so much for their cost and really are a must have but you by no means need to rush to get them all as soon as lair finish. A good idea is to get roach speed asap and aslo start off by getting and overseer for scouting and then later get the overlord speed. Burrow is also something you don't have to get instantly but it's something you want sooner rather than later for infestor, roaches and also delaying expansion with burrowed zerglings. Last but not least hydra range, you just get this one when you plan to start hydra production.
Some other good upgrades are drop and roach burrowed movment but they are by no means as cruicial.
3.2 Unit composition
You want to start off by getting just roaches and then infestor while focusing on getting all the important upgrades. A roach/infestor army also has alot better mobility than an army with hydras in it, this allows you to also be aggressive with harassing and pokeing. Getting infestors first before hydras allows them to save up alot off energy which is going to come in handy later and you can also execute cool tactics like infestors harass.
Your end composition however needs to include hydras because of their high dps, a 200/200 army without hydras are going to get crushed by one with hydras any day. The ratio is always hard to tell, it varies from game to game, but I would say about 50/50 hydra/roach and then 4-6 infestors as backup. So together with you starting +2/+2 upgrades wanting more infestor and starting hydra production you need alot of gas so for this you will to have a third base.
3.3 Mid-game tactics/strategies
In the mid-game there are some tactics and strategies that you can utilize to get ahead of your opponent, which will let you get further ahead and evetually win. Remember that you still need to actively scout your opponent so you don't fall victim to any of the mid-game tactics and strategies.
Muta switch
The muta switch can be very powerful if you do it at the right time, however done badly can put you behind instead. The idea is to catch your opponent by surprise if you scout him only going for alot of roaches, you can chose to proxy your spire with an overlord pooping creep or just put it in your base(with a greater risk of being scouted). The plan is actually only to make one round of mutas(6-8) and then go back to the normal gameplan and even if he has the perfect defense it won't be an horrible outcome for you.
The best scenario is ofcourse that you get to his base, he has no anti air except queens, you kill both queens and some drones, he goes all-in, you defend it and win. In a more reasonble scenario you can snipe 1-2 queens, force some spore crawlers and kill several overlords placed around the map. Not only does this keep your opponent completley in the dark(he can't even scout with overlords/overseers) but this also gives you full map control.
A risk with this however is that you opponent could just choose to attack with all his roaches and potientially do some serious damage since mutas just kill roaches so slowly.
Infestor runby
Alot of players don't keep an overseer with their army and even fewer keep and extra one at their third base. This opens up possibilities for burrowed infestor harass with either infested terrans or fungal growth. I like the infested terrans better because even if you won't kill as many workers you still kill some, and then you can kill a hatchery in a matter of seconds if you have 10-16 infested terrans with 2-0 in upgrades.
The magic number for infestor harass is 2, 1 just isn't going to cause enough damage and more than 2 will leave your army too vulnerable. It should also be said that infestor harass, as with any other harass, is served best with an attack, pressure or harras on another front at the same time.
Queen/roach with Nydus
Queens are really good units all around, they cost no larva, they cost only minerals, they have high hp, they can shoot air and ground and they are super cost efficient with transfuse. They also have one fatal weakness, they move slower than snail, which makes it very hard to do any sort of offensive maneuver. So the combination off all larva going to cheap roaches while you are at the same time building queens and then eliminating the walking distance by using nydus, naturally makes for a very strong attack.
They beauty of this is also that you don't have to nydus in his base(though it's better to do it if you can) for it to succeed, just close enough so you queen don't have to walk that far. If you want to execute this strategy you have to start building queens earlier so that their transfuse energy stacks up, and this is also the tell as to someone going for this kind off attack. Should you get nydused the best way to deal with it is to try and focus fire each queen so they can't transfuse before killing the roaches.
Double pronged attacks
I've touched upon this lightly before and as most of you probably already know, attacks on multiple fronts can sometimes be really strong. In ZvZ this only really becomes viable when your opponent has 3 or more bases. For these attack you want use roaches and speedlings because off their high mobility, and you can also throw in some burrowed infestor harass. A few good examples off multiple attacks can be:
- take ~8 roaches and some speedlings and attack his third while feigning an attack with you main army against the natural
- nydus/drop in the main with only some zerglings then attack his third base when reallocates his army to the main
- burrowed infestors using infested terrans on one base while you attack another
Be careful to not lose too many you units becuase then there is a risk that your opponent will just walk to your base and kill you, even if your harass worked well.
Contaminate
I think this tactic is pretty situational and it can be good, but on the other hand overseer do cost alot of gas which means less infestors and hydras. You want atleast 2 overseers, one for scouting around his base and one at your base against any sort off burrow shenanigans. From there it's not such big step adding another 2 overseers to get some contaminate action going.
A good thing you can do then is to almost permanently contaminate your opponents evo chambers letting you sprint ahead in upgrades. Another thing is to contaminate is the hatchery off your opponent which both stops the larva inject timer, stops the hatchery from spawning larva and should the queen inject during this time the inject timer will reset. Last but not least this is more off a tip that you can use even if you have just one overseer, and that is to contaminate the infestation pit if it's researching(you can see this) because most players will time their infestor to pop just after the upgrade is done.
4.0 Late game
Not many ZvZs go into the late game and therefore I don't as much experience in this part of the game. I can start of by saying that both ultras and broodlords are not that good in ZvZ. Ultras just get kited by roaches and hydras now that fungal is so short, and you will also have the wrong upgrades for ultras. Broodlords can be good if you surprise your opponent and kill him but otherwise there will just be a corruptor war with ground support, and you don't need a Hive to make corruptors. You could also go for broodlords if you sit on 3-4 more gases than your opponent because then you can get air dominas while still making some broodlords.
In the late game when you're sitting on 4-5 bases each speedling runbys and backstabs become extremely powerful. They can take out expansions and important tech building, and should you lose lets say your roach warren and then get attacked you won't be able to get any roach reinforcements during the battle. Going into the late game you should prioritize getting the +3/+3 upgrades first, then adrenal glands for your speedlings and then start upgrading melee attacks.
At this stage of the game you have to value every unit and expansion even more, so be careful with where you attack and try to keep all your bases safe
5.0 Replays
I would like to say that sometimes I forget something or misjudge my opponent, my play is no where near perfect but I think I stick to my game plan pretty well in these replays.
Vandroy vs goswser - roach/speedling expand
Vandroy vs Hister - 10 pool baneling defense(the drone spread could have been better)
Vandroy vs ikjewq - roach/speedling expand into muta switch
Vandroy vs Insomnia - roachspeedling expand into defending against a muta switch
Vandroy vs Zingy - speedling/baneling expanding(he tricks me into think he's going for speedling expand but instead goes for roaches skipping zergling speed) into a pretty standard mid-game. I get crushed in the end even though I was ahead in tech, eco and upgrades just becuase I forgot to add hydras.
Vandroy vs Biscuit - Speedling expand vs hatch first with roaches.
Vandroy vs Skinky - Speedling expand vs hatch first into mass speedling
6.0 References
12 weeks with the pros - ZvZ with Machine
Machine talks about and shows a speedling/roach expand
12 weeks with the pros - ZvZ with Sheth
Sheth crushes a speedling expand with 1base baneling with delayed expansion
Chaosvuistje's speedling expand
A rather old guide in tl's recommended threads, it has a pretty good description on how to deal with hatch first builds.
7.0 Closing words
If you're reading this part then hopefully you've read the whole guide and if so that makes me very happy that you took the time. In closing I would like to say that I learned alot writing this guide and I'll be glad if someone else got some useful information from it too.
-Best regards Vandroy
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Pretty comprehensive guide, thanks! Bookmarked!
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very nice explanation, I will translate it into Chinese..
BOOK MARKED..
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This is a sick guide.
The only thing I'm having real troubles with atm is trying to hold a speed or roach expand against 1 base roach. The problem I have is, I need to get an overseer in time for his push because he might have burrow, and I find very hard to manage my gas in that situation. I feel like I can't get enough gas if I stay on 1 geyser for too long, but I am mineral starved if I try to expand _and_ take 2 geysers not too long after he takes his. Do you have any guidelines on things like when to start lair and extra geysers, number of drones we are aiming for?
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I think you missed a very important point (read the hatch first areas and scanned the topics of the other parts, so I think you missed it). If you are going to advocate pool first on maps where hatch first is fairly easy to hold, you have to be EXTRA careful.
If your opponent is doing the 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas, 17 overlord, roach warren as soon as pool finishes, you will be quite behind economically and unable to do damage with with the speedlings (depending on the map, and if the opponent knows how to position his roaches). IdrA and Sheth do this build quite often on maps like not-close spots Shattered Temple, Tal'darim, and even Scrap.
The pool first answer to this build (like you said) is to take drones off gas and expand. You rely on map control to catch up in the drone game. This is the CRITICAL part. VERY often, your opponent will get 5-7 roaches to deny zergling scouting and transition into a fast slow-roach, speedling all-in (which will hit right as zergling speed finishes).
This "all-in" will kill you if you try to get economically ahead to make up for their hatch first. IdrA and Sheth either drone as the attack hits, or continue to pump units. This makes this "all-in" an extremely viable attack to ensure that the pool first player does not take advantage of their map control.
So, as a pool first player, you NEED an overlord behind their natural, checking drone count on their minerals. You can't completely cut drone production, because they have had more drones and 2 queens, but you cannot over drone.
If you see they have low drone saturation at their natural with your overlord, count the drones, make 3-4 more then they have at their natural (assume both of your mains are fully saturated or close).
To counter their push, you need to throw down a roach warren a few drones after your scouting lings see their roaches. Also, put drones back on gas. Do not rely on spines to defend the push. In a perfect world, you will defend with only units. If you have minerals, and no larva (aka, if you didn't balance your larva well), throw down maybe 1-2 spines at most. The rest REALLY needs to be units. Spines are bad against roach ling all ins (because he will have so many speedlings and the roaches will kill the spines quickly).
Also, units will allow you to retake map control when his attack fails.
You need to spend all gas (from your 1 gyser) on roaches. All left over minerals are going to speed lings and overlords. You want to have half your lings attacking his roaches, and the other half attacking his lings (with your roaches not being attacked). His roaches will waste dps attacking lings, and your reinforcements should clean up. Use your queen/drones if need be, but if he is ling heavy, this is a bad idea. Obviously don't lose too many drones, and MAKE SURE not to lose the queen.
This "all-in" is VERY powerful vs pool first, and it isn't even really that "all-in" unless it does no damage. As a pooling player, just try to spot for it, and don't be super greedy on drones (unless your ovie sees he is being greedy).
Good luck!
Nice guide btw!
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Very very comprehensive guide  .
Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not.
Will give this a thorough read some time ^^.
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On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^.
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it
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Wow amazing effort, thankyou for taking this much time and effort!!
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On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it
A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas.
I have mixed feelings about this because:
- I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win.
- many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches.
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On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches.
but your first 2-4 lings are guaranteed access to into his base if he is FEing. If he's not FEing and you can't get the lings in, then you still have time to start getting gas then and make a spine crawler to hold blings/roaches.
I throw down the roach warren too
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awesome! the best zvz guide so far. outstanding
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I got some nice ideas from this I never tought about before in ZvZ, like burrowing a zergling to delay the third, thanks awesome guide!
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On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^. You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it
Yes, I do dronescout on 9. I find that finding early pool openings on smaller maps like xel naga caverns or sometimes even a lucky scout in cross position shakuras beats banging my head into a brick wall after being hardcountered by an early pool because I went blind hatch first.
The drone scout is mainly to make sure if it is OK to expand, or to check when his buildings go down. Then I can respond accordingly by sneaking out one or two more drones than he has while bashing our forces together. A one drone lead in ZvZ speedling baneling wars makes such a big difference since you can tech to a roach warren sooner. And losing a drone or two doesn't mean you are too far behind yet.
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On April 30 2011 03:17 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^. You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it Yes, I do dronescout on 9. I find that finding early pool openings on smaller maps like xel naga caverns or sometimes even a lucky scout in cross position shakuras beats banging my head into a brick wall after being hardcountered by an early pool because I went blind hatch first. The drone scout is mainly to make sure if it is OK to expand, or to check when his buildings go down. Then I can respond accordingly by sneaking out one or two more drones than he has while bashing our forces together. A one drone lead in ZvZ speedling baneling wars makes such a big difference since you can tech to a roach warren sooner. And losing a drone or two doesn't mean you are too far behind yet.
I would disagree. A 9 scout puts you really behind and throws off build timings like 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. In a mirror match up, I wouldn't want to put myself behind every game just to be safe. Also, its not auto lose vs an early pool depending what early pool you are talking about (and depending on which map).
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Very nicely written guide, thanks (I did read all of it). It's a nice complement to the speedling expand thread, with more details on tactical variations and scouting.
The main thing that's missing is a hatch first guide, but there are other places to find that on TL if people want (blade's thread).
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Am I the only one that proactively tries to snipe tech in ZvZ? Would this stop being effective in High Diamond / Masters? I do many speedling run-bys, and instead of shooting for their drones I go to snipe their Spire, or Evo chambers for instance and it is not too far stretched for me to take them out. Is it too gimmicky, should I just go for drones or something more often since that is what works more at higher levels?
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On April 30 2011 11:41 Fruscainte wrote:
Am I the only one that proactively tries to snipe tech in ZvZ? Would this stop being effective in High Diamond / Masters? I do many speedling run-bys, and instead of shooting for their drones I go to snipe their Spire, or Evo chambers for instance and it is not too far stretched for me to take them out. Is it too gimmicky, should I just go for drones or something more often since that is what works more at higher levels?
If you fail to kill the tech, you have done nothing but lose lings. Going for drones is guaranteed damage.
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Very good guide, covers a lot about the match up and the necessities and how to deal with what. I like this, it can truly help lower level zerg players that are unfamiliar with the matchup.
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On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:
I have mixed feelings about this because:
- I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win.
- many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches.
I agree that it's not an auto-win but you should be able to take out the expansion while expanding your self if you have banelings and he does not. This should put you ahead of your opponent.
If you want to expand while still mining gas then you have to scout the roach warren as you say. This means that the expansion will go up later and also leaves you with less mineral to make lings to pressure with. As the roach/speedling expander you on the other hand also have the threat off being able to just take your roaches while making some speedlings and this is something your opponent has to worry about and beside that you don't get your expansion up that much later. It would probably be optimal to go for a baneling war(in this situation) but I like the speedling/roach expand because then 1 bad baneling won't end the game.
On April 30 2011 11:41 Fruscainte wrote:
Am I the only one that proactively tries to snipe tech in ZvZ? Would this stop being effective in High Diamond / Masters? I do many speedling run-bys, and instead of shooting for their drones I go to snipe their Spire, or Evo chambers for instance and it is not too far stretched for me to take them out. Is it too gimmicky, should I just go for drones or something more often since that is what works more at higher levels?
As I see it; in the early game you probably won't have alot off time should you get lings in his base and in this case I go for any scouting information. In the mid-game your opponents army might somewhere else and drones/larva are really important here so if you have the time go for drones. In the late game however I do like the sniping of buildings, if you're lucky you can delay some upgrades or just take out some important tech like roaches which will leave you with a timing to attack.
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On April 30 2011 02:15 Beef Noodles wrote:
VERY often, your opponent will get 5-7 roaches to deny zergling scouting and transition into a fast slow-roach, speedling all-in (which will hit right as zergling speed finishes).
As I would like to do this "all-in" myself as a hatch first player, can you give me the detailed drone/unit timings or just the number of drones that is ideal for this?
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On April 30 2011 03:27 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:17 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^. You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it Yes, I do dronescout on 9. I find that finding early pool openings on smaller maps like xel naga caverns or sometimes even a lucky scout in cross position shakuras beats banging my head into a brick wall after being hardcountered by an early pool because I went blind hatch first. The drone scout is mainly to make sure if it is OK to expand, or to check when his buildings go down. Then I can respond accordingly by sneaking out one or two more drones than he has while bashing our forces together. A one drone lead in ZvZ speedling baneling wars makes such a big difference since you can tech to a roach warren sooner. And losing a drone or two doesn't mean you are too far behind yet. I would disagree. A 9 scout puts you really behind and throws off build timings like 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. In a mirror match up, I wouldn't want to put myself behind every game just to be safe. Also, its not auto lose vs an early pool depending what early pool you are talking about (and depending on which map).
Puts you really behind? I would beg to differ.
The mining deficiency you get in the early game you make up by getting one drone more than the opponent in onebase vs onebase situations.
The 'you are behind' we are talking about is like roughly 2 to 3 seconds. It hardly makes any difference whatsoever unless your opponent has his build mapped out to the millisecond in efficiency.
You can easily make up lost drones by being smart, sharking with large groups of roaches for example, or feigning runby's with zerglings.
And hell, if you scout a 15 hatch first, you just go 16 hatch and you have one drone extra than he has at that very moment, tada. It really isn't rocket science, you know from your own playing what makes you make units and what makes you make drones. If you start really thinking about when to drone and when to make units, you can easily gain economy over a less smart player.
In ZvZ, the opening is just the paper. What you make later makes or breaks the painting, not the paper you chose.
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Great guide...wish there was one for terran @@
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On April 30 2011 03:27 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:17 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:On April 30 2011 02:20 Chaosvuistje wrote:Very very comprehensive guide . Though I would give a tip to add, if you scout a 13gas/13 pool build. It will pretty much always be onebase baneling attacks/allins. After lots and lots of ZvZ's thats one of the biggest tell tale scouting tidbits that allows you to know if he is going baneling or not. Will give this a thorough read some time ^^. You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it Yes, I do dronescout on 9. I find that finding early pool openings on smaller maps like xel naga caverns or sometimes even a lucky scout in cross position shakuras beats banging my head into a brick wall after being hardcountered by an early pool because I went blind hatch first. The drone scout is mainly to make sure if it is OK to expand, or to check when his buildings go down. Then I can respond accordingly by sneaking out one or two more drones than he has while bashing our forces together. A one drone lead in ZvZ speedling baneling wars makes such a big difference since you can tech to a roach warren sooner. And losing a drone or two doesn't mean you are too far behind yet. I would disagree. A 9 scout puts you really behind and throws off build timings like 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. In a mirror match up, I wouldn't want to put myself behind every game just to be safe. Also, its not auto lose vs an early pool depending what early pool you are talking about (and depending on which map).
The reason for the drone scout is actually stated in the guide(section 1.3) and yes a drone scout will put you behind more than if you don't scout. It's just as you say, you sacrifice abit of enconomy(not in any way gamebreaking) to get safety, and you need safety to play a solid game. I agree that you don't need to drone scout with 15 hatch on certain maps but I think it's alot easier to defend cheese when you are prepared and know it's comming.
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Thank you so much for this guide. Really helpful.
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On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches.
Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited.
I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it.
Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players.
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I think an alternative to drone scouting is rushing for a second queen and put drones back on gas if you see they went pool first; if then you see a baneling nest with your lings you can cancel the hatch, throw down a spine and a roach warren. You should be able to survive the banelings until your roaches are out, and then claim your natural. You will be at a slight econ disadvantage because typically he will be able to get his natural before you, but not by too much, and you are ahead in tech. This is how I prefer to do it because 1 base baneling is the only thing you need to worry when going speed expand and a drone scout is not reliable enough (you might either face banelings when you don't expect them, or he might tech up quicker than you anticipated so your own baneling allin will fail).
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Wow seems cool, good job Vandroy!
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That's a great guide. Thanks for the effort.
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On May 01 2011 03:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches. Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited. I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it. Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players.
Cool that you like the guide ^^, but can you really be that exploited by your drone scouting decisions, since you still follow up with zergling scouts shortly after your drone dies? Sure the opponent can take drones off or put them on gas when the drone scout dies but your first couple of zerglins should be able to see how much gas he has mined and also what tech he's going for and then you can readjust your build after that.
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appreciate the time you put into this guide. I didn't get a lot out of it on my end, but I think a lot of people will. This is well-written, informative and covers all the bases without being preachy.
Thanks again for posting.
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Thanks for posting! I think it will help me a lot.
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awesome guide! will read the rest asap! thank you!
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Hi vandroy! :D Nice guide, but it won't stop me from beating you at Birdie 
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On May 02 2011 08:15 Seala wrote:Hi vandroy! :D Nice guide, but it won't stop me from beating you at Birdie
Hehe I'm glad you liked it, we will see about Birdie though because I'm bringing my A game ^^
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Really nice guide Think I am going to use this to atleast partly relearn my zvz
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really nice guide, helped me out a lot with my worst MU!! big shout outs, keep up your good work, i wouldnt be really angry if you do more of this great work
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A nice guide, thank you for taking time writing it
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On May 01 2011 21:04 Vandroy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 03:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches. Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited. I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it. Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players. Cool that you like the guide ^^, but can you really be that exploited by your drone scouting decisions, since you still follow up with zergling scouts shortly after your drone dies? Sure the opponent can take drones off or put them on gas when the drone scout dies but your first couple of zerglins should be able to see how much gas he has mined and also what tech he's going for and then you can readjust your build after that.
The problem with zergling scouts is you can't depend on them to scout gas/tech in the main on most maps. Large ramps can be more difficult but any small-medium size ramp should blocked if your opponent is playing defensively.
It's not uncommon for me to get steam rolled in vs top 8 masters/grandmaster zvz players if I make an assumption about tech based on their gas and then can't zergling scout. I agree with darkforce though that this kind of metagame isn't common until upper tiers of play.
Two scenarios I can think of where I've been at a disadvantage because of this:
1) I scout opponent getting 100 gas then pulling drones and assuming I can do a speedling expand against another speedling expand. Opponent actually went right back on gas after my drone scout left and instead went speedling/baneling.
2) I scout opponent not stopping at 100 gas and assuming bling/speedling get roaches off 1 base, and find opponent stopped getting gas the moment I left his base and actually did a speedling expand.
Besides seeing a very early pool or trying to block a hatch, I see early drone scouts as pretty useless. The only information you can depend on after lings hatch is what you gain from seeing what a zerg is showing at their front and what you can infer from overlords (drone saturation mostly). Getting zerglings in a base to scout should always been seen as bonus and never depended on.
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On May 03 2011 03:13 Zago wrote:
It's not uncommon for me to get steam rolled in vs top 8 masters/grandmaster zvz players if I make an assumption about tech based on their gas and then can't zergling scout. I agree with darkforce though that this kind of metagame isn't common until upper tiers of play.
At lower levels people often simply forget to pull drones off gas so you still shouldn't use that to make big decisions (like teching to roaches before expanding).
On May 03 2011 03:13 Zago wrote:
Besides seeing a very early pool or trying to block a hatch, I see early drone scouts as pretty useless. The only information you can depend on after lings hatch is what you gain from seeing what a zerg is showing at their front and what you can infer from overlords (drone saturation mostly). Getting zerglings in a base to scout should always been seen as bonus and never depended on.
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In the very specific scenario where you open speed expand, the only thing you really need to find out asap is whether he is going banelings off of 1 base, and I don't think he can hide that from a ling poke at his front (he has to show at least if he made more than 6 lings). I agree that the drone scout is not very useful.
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On May 03 2011 03:13 Zago wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 21:04 Vandroy wrote:On May 01 2011 03:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 dementrio wrote:On April 30 2011 02:22 Beef Noodles wrote:
You drone scout in zvz? Is it just to scout for early blings? I never drone scout, so I've always wanted to hear from a drone-scouting player why they do it A drone scout is the only way you can check whether they stop mining gas after 100. The idea is that you can't expand behind speed alone if there is a possibility he is going banelings and a zerling scout comes too late to check for that. You can also opt to rush banelings yourself if you see them stop mining gas. I have mixed feelings about this because: - I think speedling expand can hold the ramp against banelings, sac the expo and be OKish. It's not an auto-win. - many people opt to continue mining gas as long as you have a scout in their base and then go for speed expand anyway, putting you behind if you decided to go roaches. Well he can just take his drones out of gas once your scouting drone dies. Sure he has mined a bit more gas than he needs, but if you base big decisions on such a rather small information you can be exploited. I personally would only dronescout on maps where you cant scout whether he went hatch first in time for you to decide how many lings to get. But overall drone scouting is a bit of a matter of taste, i know for example that morrow always does it. Overall a good guide, especially for lower levels this should work very well, the small inaccuricies will only become a problem against good players. Cool that you like the guide ^^, but can you really be that exploited by your drone scouting decisions, since you still follow up with zergling scouts shortly after your drone dies? Sure the opponent can take drones off or put them on gas when the drone scout dies but your first couple of zerglins should be able to see how much gas he has mined and also what tech he's going for and then you can readjust your build after that. The problem with zergling scouts is you can't depend on them to scout gas/tech in the main on most maps. Large ramps can be more difficult but any small-medium size ramp should blocked if your opponent is playing defensively. It's not uncommon for me to get steam rolled in vs top 8 masters/grandmaster zvz players if I make an assumption about tech based on their gas and then can't zergling scout. I agree with darkforce though that this kind of metagame isn't common until upper tiers of play. Two scenarios I can think of where I've been at a disadvantage because of this: 1) I scout opponent getting 100 gas then pulling drones and assuming I can do a speedling expand against another speedling expand. Opponent actually went right back on gas after my drone scout left and instead went speedling/baneling. 2) I scout opponent not stopping at 100 gas and assuming bling/speedling get roaches off 1 base, and find opponent stopped getting gas the moment I left his base and actually did a speedling expand. Besides seeing a very early pool or trying to block a hatch, I see early drone scouts as pretty useless. The only information you can depend on after lings hatch is what you gain from seeing what a zerg is showing at their front and what you can infer from overlords (drone saturation mostly). Getting zerglings in a base to scout should always been seen as bonus and never depended on.
You have some good points but I have to disagree, I think on most maps you can easily get your first zerglings inside your opponents base, even with small ramps like Xel'naga. Roaches and an extra queen comes out too late, and in my exprience(from watching and playing) very few player choose to leave their first lings behind to block the ramp.
1) I this case I choose to go for zergling/baneling aggression(against the speedling expand) so I will either enter a into a baneling war or encounter roaches, and then I can I expanding while having speedling map control. This is assuming I can't get a zergling into his base, otherwise I'd cancel my baneling nest upon seeing his roach warren and throw down my own.
2) In this scenario I will see his expand with my zerglings even if I can't get into my opponents base. I think this case is abit more troublesome becasue I basically have to go through with my roach/speedling expand. On the other hand his expansion will be delayed because he had to trick me and keep mining gas and then I think the roach/speedling expand does quite well or atleast not bad.
Even if the drone scout info can be exploited to some extent you atleast need to do it to know if your opponent is going hatch first or otherwise your 14gas/14pool is going to be even further behind in my humble opinion.
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Added a replay of speedling expand vs hatch first(with roaches) for those interested.
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great guide for everyone who struggles with ZvZ!
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Thanks a lot; fantastic guide, and your English is great, better than most natives. Keep it up!
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I find speedling expand to be very weak to a non-roach 15 hatch, i.e pure speedling attack (once they get speed) or baneling play.
Have you considered sending an early scout(9ish maybe) and going 15 hatch on most maps?
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On May 05 2011 19:04 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
I find speedling expand to be very weak to a non-roach 15 hatch, i.e pure speedling attack (once they get speed) or baneling play.
Have you considered sending an early scout(9ish maybe) and going 15 hatch on most maps?
I do agree that the speedling expand is weakest against someone choosing to use all their resources to make only lings and then when his speed kicks in he just overruns you. On the other hand I think this it's really risky for your opponent to not use roaches or spines, because if you opted for fast baneling nest(putting guys back into gas or just keep 1-2 on gas while expanding) he could just straight up die, and with his opening he can't really know what your're doing.
Should you face someone doing this I think the best thing to do is to note that he's not making spines and instead alot of lings, a roach defender probably won't make more then ~8 lings. Then from there put drones back on gas and opt for a earlier baneling nest or roach warren, delaying your second, queen. You could also choose to leave 1-2 drones on gas before expanding or just put drones back straight after the expansion goes up, this leaves you with possiblity to get a really fast baneling nest if your opponent should choose to make alot of lings however you will be slightly worse off against a roach expander.
I did consider going for a 15 hatch with the early scout but I chose the 14gas/14pool instead because of it's good flexibility(I think I wrote mostly why in section 1.0 though) among other things.
Ps. I will try to get some replays off speedling expanding vs 15 hatch mass speedling
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I think there's no reason to go 15 hatch honestly. There are build order losses and 15 hatch is not better or worse than any other build in that matter, and a 15hatch into roach (the only "safe" 15hatch) is forced to take big risks against speed expand, like blindly droning or blindly allin with slow roaches, because they have no way to get scouting in. you only get a clear advantage against really bad players who would do something dumb like 1 base roach/banelings, and its much much harder to play than speed expand.
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This game just now made me 2 games / 2 and will make me win more. Thank you very much for the nice guide!
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Added a replay off speedling expand vs hatch first into mass speedling(Vandroy vs Skinky), not the perfect game but I would try to play it out something like this, my guess is that a roach switch will be too slow. The reasoning is that since I don't see spines or a roach warren and instead lots of lings I can add more drones to gas and throw down a baneling nest.
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It is an impressive guide!
One thing I want to notice is that if your op just go 2 queens wall-in, and extremely fast one based muta, how can u defend with that? mass muta just end the game with those roach army....so I do go hydras always If I am wrong please just correct me.
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I have a few issues, the main one is 14 gas 14 pool against hatch first. I honestly think the hatch first player has a pretty sizable advantage (barring close positions and possibly 1v1 maps). I've played around with this a lot at a high diamond low masters level and the spanishiwa style just seems to wreck this with a few spines and queens blocking the ramp. I think they can cost effectively stifle any harass and get so far ahead economically it's ridiculous. You can pressure them and do fake pressures to try to get them to overmake lings but I really am not sure how to beat them besides catching them really off guard with a timing attack and that's tenuous at best. Every time I hatch first and see that they did 14 gas 14 pool I hear Dimaga's voice in my head saying "ok now I win" and I almost always do unless I make a mistake.
Now if I hatch first and they do a 9 or 10 pool and make spines in my base I think I'm pretty much dead and this build counters that well, I'm really stressed with the matchup lately honestly.
As far as your muta idea goes, I really hate mutas zvz and I think they're completely cheesy and just outright dumb. If the spire gets scouted at all your opponent can just throw down a hydra den and you've lost because you've essentially wasted 1k 1k. Even if it doesn't get scouted if the other player attacks you with roaches as you're attacking with mutas a really odd scenario forms where you can go kill the roaches with mutas but likely not before they've sniped all your hatcheries and the other player has gotten a hydra den up or you can try to do a base trade scenario where the roaches will structure kill faster. If you switch to mutas later on in the game after you've been massing roaches than it's likely that the other player will have added infestors or hydras with his army which both wreck mutas. I just don't see any merit in mutas.
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going 14 gas 14 pool is awesome. Appreciate it, doing a lot better in ZvZ now that I know how to open!
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On May 06 2011 13:01 DicW wrote:It is an impressive guide! One thing I want to notice is that if your op just go 2 queens wall-in, and extremely fast one based muta, how can u defend with that? mass muta just end the game with those roach army....so I do go hydras always If I am wrong please just correct me.
I don't think mutas from one base are a problem especially if your opponent chooses to wall his ramp with 2 queens. The fastest possilbe way to get mutas(from 14gas/14pool) is to start lair as soon as your queen finsihes(you could skip queen but that's not really viable) and then block your ramp with 3 roaches. Should your opponent do this and then start a spire asap then it will finish at ~7.10 and the mutas mutas pop ~7.43, however this can max be 4-5 mutas since there won't be enough gas on one base.
So when I see a zerg going for one base I like to get 1-2 additional queens because queens are really good defensive units both against ground and air with their transfuse. Then when your opponent shows his hand(4-5 mutas) you can defend this with your queens easily and then go for infestors or hydras should he choose to make more mutas. In this situation I do think you will be ahead since you have your expansion up and I think 1base muta is pretty weak.
On May 06 2011 14:51 proxY_ wrote:
I have a few issues, the main one is 14 gas 14 pool against hatch first. I honestly think the hatch first player has a pretty sizable advantage (barring close positions and possibly 1v1 maps). I've played around with this a lot at a high diamond low masters level and the spanishiwa style just seems to wreck this with a few spines and queens blocking the ramp. I think they can cost effectively stifle any harass and get so far ahead economically it's ridiculous. You can pressure them and do fake pressures to try to get them to overmake lings but I really am not sure how to beat them besides catching them really off guard with a timing attack and that's tenuous at best. Every time I hatch first and see that they did 14 gas 14 pool I hear Dimaga's voice in my head saying "ok now I win" and I almost always do unless I make a mistake.
Now if I hatch first and they do a 9 or 10 pool and make spines in my base I think I'm pretty much dead and this build counters that well, I'm really stressed with the matchup lately honestly.
As far as your muta idea goes, I really hate mutas zvz and I think they're completely cheesy and just outright dumb. If the spire gets scouted at all your opponent can just throw down a hydra den and you've lost because you've essentially wasted 1k 1k. Even if it doesn't get scouted if the other player attacks you with roaches as you're attacking with mutas a really odd scenario forms where you can go kill the roaches with mutas but likely not before they've sniped all your hatcheries and the other player has gotten a hydra den up or you can try to do a base trade scenario where the roaches will structure kill faster. If you switch to mutas later on in the game after you've been massing roaches than it's likely that the other player will have added infestors or hydras with his army which both wreck mutas. I just don't see any merit in mutas.
I havn't played against the exact spanishiwa style but when I see someone making spine crawlers and their natural then I know that they are taking a very defensive apporach to their hatch first. The best thing to do then, in my opinion, is to just stop at ~10 lings and then make your first inject into drones and then keep on droneing(don't forget to time the second queen so she can inject the natural when it finishes).
You can in this situation keep very good check on you opponent while he has to maybe add another spine, another queen just to be safe, because he's playing in the dark. So with your opponent having to put down atleast 2 spines and ~10 lings to get control of his natural before spines finishes and also walk down his second queen to block the ramp, I don't see that you are too bad off against this with your own speedling expand.
About the mutas; I think a switch to them mid-game can be good as long as you don't overmake them becasue then you'll just die, and they might not also not fit every situation so scout your opponent before you choose if you should put down a spire or not. In the worst case scenario(assuming you don't die) you still get all his overlords around the map, complete map control until your opponent has enough hydra/infestor and also the possibilty to deny all scouting, which is pretty good in my opinion.
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You should make a ZvT and ZvP guide as well.
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Also add that the spanishiwa build takes no gas until half an hour in the game, you can simply take a 3rd at the 5 minute mark and roll over it every time because it has absolutely no way to be aggressive. The unsafe hatch first into mass lings is much harder to deal with, but I guess we can't get rid of BO losses.
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Your upgrades section isn't exactly well developed... Seems to me that regardless of upgrades if you have more infestors you win and upgrades seem to hinder more infestors... Would you suggest getting upgrades after you get your initial infestors?
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Does anyone have any advice on when a good time to get Ultras is, if you both go Roach/hydra/infestor (which is what everyone does post-infestor buff). One of the problems I have been having is that on maps with ramps or chokes into the natural It is impossible to attack if he has infestors, especially on Talder'im.
Close position Shattered Temple is another one, you can shut down all expo attempts with 2 nydus worms at the other 2 bases. The natural on that map is really tight though which makes attacking it again, impossible with the threat of infestors :<
Also I don't think getting the armour upgrade is worth it, Fungal makes it a useless upgrade imo.
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Really good guide. The only problem I noticed is that you should talk more about close position problems. All too often someone will just ling all in you in close positions and the roach timing isn't enough to deal with it, even with the few lings you keep pumping for initial defense.
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On May 08 2011 10:29 Kornholi0 wrote:
Your upgrades section isn't exactly well developed... Seems to me that regardless of upgrades if you have more infestors you win and upgrades seem to hinder more infestors... Would you suggest getting upgrades after you get your initial infestors?
You can get your infestors before getting upgrades but then it feels more like you want to go for some attack before your opponent also gets infestor, or do some cute tactic with infestors. If you go infestor first and only to sit in your base then the net gain is maybe 2-4 fungals extra, and then in my opinion 2 extra upgrades are worth alot more, and you also lose if you wait until both you and your opponent are maxed and you don't have +2/+2 and he has. If you start upgrading early from one evo chamber it also helps you deal with any sort pre-infestor aggression.
In conclusion I think both way of going for upgrades are viable but I myself like to start upgrading pretty early.
On May 08 2011 10:50 Laids wrote:
Does anyone have any advice on when a good time to get Ultras is, if you both go Roach/hydra/infestor (which is what everyone does post-infestor buff). One of the problems I have been having is that on maps with ramps or chokes into the natural It is impossible to attack if he has infestors, especially on Talder'im.
Close position Shattered Temple is another one, you can shut down all expo attempts with 2 nydus worms at the other 2 bases. The natural on that map is really tight though which makes attacking it again, impossible with the threat of infestors :<
Also I don't think getting the armour upgrade is worth it, Fungal makes it a useless upgrade imo.
I don't think you should ever get ultras(some might disagree with this) but instead opt for +3/+3 and adrenal glands(maybe) if you go to Hive. In my opinion ultras are way to imobile and expensive to to be worth it and with fungal being so short hydras and roaches can easily kite/snipe them, and also your upgrades won't support ultras at all(if you skip armor). I think the best choice if you are ahead in bases and gas intake of your opponent is to go for broodlord/corruptor in the end game.
About shattered temple, it's hard to say give my thought on something so general because every match looks different. I do think that if you can't attack in the mid game a contain is always good, you can spread creep and put some spines up and then take your third. To prevent nyduses an extra 20-30 lings defending your main/third is pretty good way to stop that.
That's a good point for getting attack first but I still think also getting armor is worth it in the end. When you go into your 200/200 battles, sure fungal will be good and both sides will have about the equal amount(maybe you'll 2-3 extra because you skipped armor) but after that it will still be the hydras and roaches doing the rest of the battle and +2/+0 vs +2/+2 will lose anyday.
On May 08 2011 13:44 overshard wrote:
Really good guide. The only problem I noticed is that you should talk more about close position problems. All too often someone will just ling all in you in close positions and the roach timing isn't enough to deal with it, even with the few lings you keep pumping for initial defense.
Hmm, you're right I didn't think off that, but I agree that the dynamic is different in close pos and therefore it might be better to adapt and go for other strategies in those situations. I might add a subsection for it when I have time^^.
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