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[G] TvZ Mass Marine - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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VEReHrT
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada121 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-24 18:29:09
April 24 2011 18:25 GMT
#61
Is there a guide for standard marine splitting? >.< I'm having some trouble getting it down. My record is level 8(I think) in the marine splitting ums(with stim+shields). I would rather learn standard than the patrol method. Can someone link a guide/give me some tips? I'm having fun using this strat in platinum, and I'm doing well except when I commit some egregious micro fail v. blings.
As long as we keep our passion as progamers, we will always have an opportunity to meet again. On a purely personal note, I'd like to show him the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. SlayerS_BoxeR
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
April 24 2011 18:32 GMT
#62
On April 22 2011 19:34 OutlaW- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2011 16:59 PredY wrote:
you gotta realize that when you produce 20 marines per cycle or w/e you gotta have INSANEEEE multitasking abilities and without tanks a sick good marine control. Cuz if you send your 60 marines to attack and can't multitask your new marines it's pointless to play like that.

I'd be worried about mass infestors rather than banes but that can be countered by ghosts which you should get every time zerg goes infestors.

I think it's very hard without tanks unless you got 300 apm to babysit your army all the time and do other stuff as well. Raven followup is pretty cool tho. I start to get ravens almost every tvz now if i get into late game, i love how it completely owns broodlords ^^.

Wouldn't that be an awesome way to practice multitasking and increasing your apm then? Definitely something people should toy around with

Yes it is.
For a while I went mass marine with medivacs and ghosts/nukes in the team games. It really increased my multitasking, micro and game sense. Dropping like 6 nukes at once is so much fun. Eventually you hit there whole army and lol your way to +12 points.
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
chopchop1
Profile Joined July 2010
27 Posts
April 25 2011 10:51 GMT
#63
On April 25 2011 03:25 VEReHrT wrote:
Is there a guide for standard marine splitting? >.< I'm having some trouble getting it down. My record is level 8(I think) in the marine splitting ums(with stim+shields). I would rather learn standard than the patrol method. Can someone link a guide/give me some tips? I'm having fun using this strat in platinum, and I'm doing well except when I commit some egregious micro fail v. blings.


this is a pretty general guide on marine splitting that i found


altho it highlights using the patrol method, the start of the video goes thru the general idea behind marine splitting using standard methods. in the end i believe it just comes down to high apm and lots of practice
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
April 25 2011 11:42 GMT
#64
This reminds me of the aggressive no add-on mass marine play that used to be somewhat popular. That only really worked well against hatch first with very late gas/ling speed, but it turns out that style is gaining popularity again.

With mass barracks constantly producing large waves of marines, only infestors are really good enough to hold it off. Spines don't help once the marine count gets high enough. Upgraded speedlings are definitely problematic if the zerg waits to get a critical number before engaging.

It's interesting to see that this approach takes a slight delay in pressure to start the expansion earlier than the old builds. This actually gives a huge advantage in comparison by allowing for better transitions should problems arise.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 12:02:46
April 25 2011 11:56 GMT
#65
I used the marine raven build ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 that branched to marine tank and to what is the standard TvZ nowadays) and I can testimony that the mass marine style requires a lot more micro/macro and multitasking that one could think at first glance. Once you have like 10 reactored raxes, that alone is an insane apm sink. And babysitting marines against infestors/banes is not an easy task by itself =) One beauty of this build is that even if you lose 50 marines in 2 seconds, you have at least 50 more waiting, so you can overpower and bruteforce your way, this is a very satisfying style toi have and play.
And if the zerg doesn't keep up with upgrades, you'll experience intense joy as you'll se 10 marines killing hordes and hordes of stuff.
And when you backup to a more standard play, everything seems slow and easy, so that's a very good build to improve.

Anyway, this strat is nearly the same as the one I linked above for the marine part, and most of the counters/theory and discussion that I read in this thread have often been already addressed there, you should check it out.
ahw
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1099 Posts
April 29 2011 13:48 GMT
#66
Sorry for a bi of a necropost but I don't post often and feel this strategy merits more discussion.

I've been matching against top dia/low-mid masters Zerg for a while and been losing quite consistently to strong macrozerg on big maps. This strategy has totally turned around the matchup for me and I'd highly suggest any struggling t players to open with it if you can micro reasonably well.

I find it's biggest strength is it is difficult for the Z to judge when he is ahead. After trading armies, overselling and getting dropped or a heavy tech switch can actually lose them the game instead of win it for them.

Anyway, highly suggest to try the style for struggling high d / low m players
nipZ
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5 Posts
April 29 2011 14:05 GMT
#67
this sounds interesting and even fun. the only problem is see is that a good high level zerg with a good sized ling army could easily trap you for baneling bombs and if they could squeeze out infestor play then youd be having a field day trying to constantly split all those marines, leaving easier surrounds/kills from the lings
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 14:19:37
April 29 2011 14:19 GMT
#68
Been playing a lot against this. Especially on Taldarim Altar. It is the most annoying/fun thing to play against.

After the game you always have that feeling that you could have done better. But eventually you always make mistakes against this.
And probably the same feeling rests with the Terran

But, I have won against it as well. The Terran needs to be at least be at the zerg his skill level to pull this off. At least that is the feeling I get from it.

There are better (read easier) ways to win as Terran against Zerg.
But if you like to really play an action packed game, I suggest you try this build.


Tanks are a must in the mid game in my opinion. It really stops any form of banelingsbust/banelings-expansion-denie from the zerg.
I had a good night of sleep.
naventus
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States1339 Posts
April 29 2011 14:28 GMT
#69
The fact is that tanks are garbage without having a significant position on the Z. If you have a large map where it's not easy to get into position, then every minute after the critical pre Ztech timing you will be struggling to make something happen.

Any T army that can't mobilely engage with Z is going to lose against a better Z player.

-

What do you think of hellions? Is blueflame too important to pass up early?
hmm.
Falcon-sw
Profile Joined September 2010
United States324 Posts
April 29 2011 14:41 GMT
#70
I wish I could just mass zerglings and win.

That said, I have played against this once or twice. The game I won, the Terran spent the last five minutes saying I sucked because my upgrades were like 1/1. Very, very stressful.
https://www.youtube.com/FalconPaladin https://twitch.tv/falconpaladin
Exley
Profile Joined April 2011
United States239 Posts
April 29 2011 15:40 GMT
#71
It's a very frustrating style to play against if the Terran takes his third. To keep up with 14-reactor rax you need to be really good about injects while dealing with the endless onslaught of marines.
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 16:03:55
April 29 2011 16:03 GMT
#72
On April 29 2011 23:41 Falcon-sw wrote:
I wish I could just mass zerglings and win.

That said, I have played against this once or twice. The game I won, the Terran spent the last five minutes saying I sucked because my upgrades were like 1/1. Very, very stressful.

...You can win with mass zerglings. You just need to add on support units as necessary if you don't want to play as a cheesy shit (EG some banelings (Not the mass "SO MANY BANELINGS LULZ" numbers that you usually see, that's quite unnecessary), get a few infesters, etc, some mutas, etc, but focus on zerglings and zergling upgrades).

"But that isn't mass zerglings! QQ"

Well I guess you can't call this strat mass marine considering you get marauders, medivacs, ghosts, tanks, etc. now can you? ;P
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
April 29 2011 16:16 GMT
#73
I've been playing almost exactly this style for a long time - almost the same BO even. I really enjoy it xD
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
ahw
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1099 Posts
April 29 2011 16:17 GMT
#74
On April 30 2011 00:40 Exley wrote:
It's a very frustrating style to play against if the Terran takes his third. To keep up with 14-reactor rax you need to be really good about injects while dealing with the endless onslaught of marines.


And behind the pressure it's pretty easy to get a planetary up while supporting constant pressure and 2 ebays pumping upgrades.

Vs mass ling you just need to play positionally like a Protoss, hugging corners and edges of ramps to reduce surface area.

It's honestly been such a complex turn around in controlling the matchup for me. I'm sure it's because it forces aggression and I must've been too passive or something.
4Servy
Profile Joined August 2008
Netherlands1542 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 16:31:02
April 29 2011 16:29 GMT
#75
I do it sometimes when I get like ahead early and midgame, like vs a succesfull stoped baneling bust or so. But tbh if you play a good zerg, zergs that know what they are doing it isnt going to work. Simply because defensive muta's stop every possible drop attempt if you have a good ovi spread wich eliminates the prime strenght of this build. It can be great at medium masters level, but on proffesional level it isnt going to cut it other than really situational.
dave333
Profile Joined August 2010
United States915 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 19:24:36
April 29 2011 19:24 GMT
#76
This is awful to deal with I'm finding. Im a low masters zerg and I just do not have the APM to keep with terrans who can constantly throw armies of rines and drop at the same time. 2 dropships worth of rines takes like an entire army, but when theres a drop in my main AND an attack at my third at the same time on a map like meta, when he's killing me creep and all that shit, its just soo hard to keep up with everything.

It really abuses how strong rines are. The problem with fungal is that it means that i can't kill the medivacs, and so I still need banelings anyway.

It just makes it soo stressful, I'm not sure how to win against it.

Pros probably won't have any issues with it, but at lower levels this is really strong.
roam
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States54 Posts
April 30 2011 00:03 GMT
#77
Watched the replays. I like this, and it's almost beyond me how people can win with other styles once Z's understand the game better.

The problem with any sort of mech oriented play (marine tank or pure mech) is that you become too reliant on gas mech units. You end up sitting in base for 3+ minute each wave waiting to get crit when Z can produce an equivalent army before you and just bank the rest. Plus you have a terrible time defending extra expansions because in many scenarios when Z is left alone for 3-4m, he can make 20mutas.

How do you prevent Z from making 20 mutas? By trading armies with him every fucking minute. If you can shove 9rax (27marines / m) down his throat, he will have to dedicate ALL his gas expenditure onto roach/bane. He can get 16 banes / minute off 2 base, so it all comes down to micro. As long as you can do this, then you won't have to worry about a significant, undefendable muta threat.

From the Z perspective, he really ought to make infestor instead of muta first. Because his gas expenditure is so locked up, he can only sneak a few big gas units. What would you rather have sitting around during 10-14minute window: 6 muta or 3 infestor?

In my mind, there's no other matchup in the game that punishes a player so hard for not being aggressive. Sure you can camp 2-3 base as T, roll out a 200 push and hope for the best. But given a competent Z, good luck finding _any_ way to deal with the 20-30 mutas flying around. There just isn't any response except for aggression.

I noticed that after 2-3 bases, there's a lot of gas sitting around. That's the perfect time to grab ravens I think, since that fully saturates your resource usage. A significant raven mass can take the place of marine drops (throw down 15-20 turrets in his main), help control mid [turret], fight mass muta [PDD], and fight broodlord [HSM].

Only minor point is that ghost will most likely be necessary against infestor late (15m+).

roam
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States54 Posts
April 30 2011 00:08 GMT
#78
My only question is why do factory units even exist? They all seem ok in some early timing push before the other races unlock techs, but are so fragile and one dimensional for combat purposes.

Hellion: shoots super slowly, shoots too early (the 6 range means first shot will hit few units)
Tank: too immobile for mediocre mid/late game damage. Except for good position/timing, doesn't deal enough to pay for itself.
Thor: Doesn't deal enough damage (shooting lings/boxed mutas).

These specialized units ought to be able to trade themselves against the other races, but the composition and flow of the game almost always means they can't, and die before dealing relevant damage.
Dragom
Profile Joined December 2010
194 Posts
April 30 2011 00:53 GMT
#79
as a zerg i would say: Nice build, will experiment that in my 4v4s(which i dont care about anyway...)
"The second thing to go is your memory...ergh, I can't remember what the first thing is..."
Afterstar
Profile Joined November 2010
67 Posts
April 30 2011 13:31 GMT
#80
There is a nice similar build by Halby(HalbyStarcraft) called "upper ups", you go primarily for a 2base mass marines/medivacs and double eng. bays for 2/2 upgrades.
You can also go for a few banshees/helions to force the zerg to make mutalisks and roaches.
Check it out on his channel at Upper ups Halby TvZ strategy
Don't cry because it's over,smile because it happened.
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