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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:34 OutlaW- wrote: Wouldn't that be an awesome way to practice multitasking and increasing your apm then? Definitely something people should toy around with if you know you will lose 90% games and it will take 100+ games to practise the multitasking and control, then yes  | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:50 PredY wrote: if you know you will lose 90% games and it will take 100+ games to practise the multitasking and control, then yes Still, even though it might take 100+ games and you will keep on losing, you will have improved in the long run. It's hard practicing multi task and unit control under normal circumstances, but this will let you practice that and that only. :p | ||
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x89
United Kingdom276 Posts
I've faced this a few times but never executed with the micro of a high masters player, managed to hold with queen transfuses, spines and ling / baneling. It was a lot more powerful than I'd have expected pure marines to be though. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:59 OutlaW- wrote: Still, even though it might take 100+ games and you will keep on losing, you will have improved in the long run. It's hard practicing multi task and unit control under normal circumstances, but this will let you practice that and that only. :p go for it. get practice partners or abuse the hell out of random customs to learn it. Multitasking is what separates most tiers of players in general, if you can baby sit this army whilst managing everything else, chances are your going to be very good in general. This style forces you to become good, and since you know exactly what your macro is going to look like, there's no variables to worry about so you can 100% focus on improved speed/multi task. I think it's a great idea to break the game down like this and work on separate ideas, and this has the bonus of being viable :O | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:59 OutlaW- wrote: Still, even though it might take 100+ games and you will keep on losing, you will have improved in the long run. It's hard practicing multi task and unit control under normal circumstances, but this will let you practice that and that only. :p yeah thats what i meant, gotta know what you're going for, if you have enough willpower and you gonna work hard, it's a good way to play | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:50 PredY wrote: if you know you will lose 90% games and it will take 100+ games to practise the multitasking and control, then yes Well, most zergs that people on the forum play suck quite a bit and you can literally just a-move marines at them until you win. So there's not actually that much of a problem. You can beat them with mass marines but you can practice micro too so you can win better. A herd of blings rolling at you from a platinum scrub isn't much different than a herd of blings rolling at you from high diamond/masters. | ||
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Mad_Mardigon
United States52 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 22 2011 16:01 mizU wrote: This is SO annoying to play against as zerg. I had a Terran throw this against me when I was randoming. It's so hard to defend multiple bases with just bane, ling, and muta against constant streams of marines in all of your bases. Eventually your micro slips and you can't effectively kill marines. Really strong strategy especially on bigger maps like Tal Darim. Yeah I feel like when I'm doing mass marine then it comes down to who makes the first big mistake. In that sense, it can be harder to play for the zerg side because they can overdrone, underdrone, overextend (fight off creep), lose his core unit mix (infestors or mutas), etc. and all terran has to really focus on is splitting up his units and hitting multiple locations. On April 22 2011 16:24 Moja wrote: Isn't this basically how marine king got his name? Am I missing something here? This style is several months old... Yes this is the mass marine guide, not infinity's innovative TvZ style. On April 22 2011 16:59 PredY wrote: you gotta realize that when you produce 20 marines per cycle or w/e you gotta have INSANEEEE multitasking abilities and without tanks a sick good marine control. Cuz if you send your 60 marines to attack and can't multitask your new marines it's pointless to play like that. I'd be worried about mass infestors rather than banes but that can be countered by ghosts which you should get every time zerg goes infestors. I think it's very hard without tanks unless you got 300 apm to babysit your army all the time and do other stuff as well. Raven followup is pretty cool tho. I start to get ravens almost every tvz now if i get into late game, i love how it completely owns broodlords ^^. I find this style fun to play because the strength of it is a direct result of my mechanics which reminds me of BW I haven't messed around with the late game composition much but I think tankless TvZ can still work ok if I have enough marauders and ghost/raven support. Being on pure marine late game is actually pretty damn risky and you can't mix in ghost/raven because of how fragile & expensive these units are in small numbers and you really want to keep those alive unlike the marines. Marauders give your army more chances of survival. On April 22 2011 19:18 PopoChampion wrote: With infestors becoming a lot more popular (because they're imbalanced vs terran, and that's coming from me, a zerg player  ), I'm not sure about how effective it would be in the mid-game, but it is definitely hard to beat in the early game.To be honest, I've lost games where I don't preemtively split my units and lose 80% of my army in 1 FG because I wasn't aware that infestors were out. But once marauders are out, it is actually not a big deal to play against infestors because you can split up a small mm force (mostly marauder) and position them slightly in front of your army. If the infestors fg that small force, it literally does 0 dmg as medivacs will heal the marauders instantly and if the infestors go for your main marine army, then he will have to pass through your forward-positioned marauders at which point you can stim and snipe them since you have a lot of dps vs armoured units in that group. On April 22 2011 20:01 x89 wrote: Does this not rely quite heavily on the map? I'm assuming this build's quite a lot weaker on Tal Darim or Terminus RE than it is on XNC or Shattered close position? I've faced this a few times but never executed with the micro of a high masters player, managed to hold with queen transfuses, spines and ling / baneling. It was a lot more powerful than I'd have expected pure marines to be though. This build is actually really strong on Tal'darim in late game because it is wide open and allows terran to abuse the mobility of mmm and use multi-pronged attacks. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 22 2011 16:59 PredY wrote: you gotta realize that when you produce 20 marines per cycle or w/e you gotta have INSANEEEE multitasking abilities and without tanks a sick good marine control. Cuz if you send your 60 marines to attack and can't multitask your new marines it's pointless to play like that. I'd be worried about mass infestors rather than banes but that can be countered by ghosts which you should get every time zerg goes infestors. I think it's very hard without tanks unless you got 300 apm to babysit your army all the time and do other stuff as well. Raven followup is pretty cool tho. I start to get ravens almost every tvz now if i get into late game, i love how it completely owns broodlords ^^. Thats why NaDa will be the first to do it in the GSL. Some would say MKP, but MKP does't need Ghosts, just Marines. Sk Terran woot woot. | ||
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DevanT
United States71 Posts
One thing, you don't stress enough the importance of dropping. With your sheer number of marines, doing a x16 drop in the main while doing a x30 march on the natural will be devastating. Unless they are amazing at decision making/apm,they will send their baneling ball at one of your armies, most likely the x30 at the natural which allows you to spend 100% of your energy on that ball of marines microing and allows your drop to just A-move attack and deal a lot of damage. This build is so good especially since a lot of pros in recent tournaments have just let zerg macro up without any harassment and lost to broodlords / infestors. if you keep trading armies, the zerg cannot drone up meanwhile you are still pumping scvs and allows you to take a 3rd super easily with a PF. the zerg will never have enough units to take it out. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
If you rushed ravens this could be interesting as HS missle would be really good vs bling balls. And turrets could put up a huge wall. To deal with lings. but the prob is one NP and a seeker on your rines and holy shit that sucks  | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
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FireBoltHero
United States66 Posts
in practice this isn't so, at higher levels this style just cant be pulled off good zergs will scout your mass rax's ebays and lack of 4 gas geysers and go ling bling with a normal timed 3rd you do your push with your mass marines, the zerglings come in, surround you blings come in from the flank, you're surrounded it's impossible to micro blings kill everything from there they go infestor ling and you just lose yea this style is great if you want to improve your micro and multitask but to be honest my tvz is by far my best MU and i go pure mech every game, I feel heavy mech styles are the future tvz and not this mass marine shit | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:35 FireBoltHero wrote: in theory this style should work, with perfect control IN THEORY marines counter every tier 1 and 2 unit that zerg can make in practice this isn't so, at higher levels this style just cant be pulled off good zergs will scout your mass rax's ebays and lack of 4 gas geysers and go ling bling with a normal timed 3rd you do your push with your mass marines, the zerglings come in, surround you blings come in from the flank, you're surrounded it's impossible to micro blings kill everything from there they go infestor ling and you just lose yea this style is great if you want to improve your micro and multitask but to be honest my tvz is by far my best MU and i go pure mech every game, I feel heavy mech styles are the future tvz and not this mass marine shit What's a high enough level for you? Grand master league? GSL? At least have the sense to be higher ranked than the person you're shitting on about skill level lol | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:36 GinDo wrote: Thats why NaDa will be the first to do it in the GSL. Some would say MKP, but MKP does't need Ghosts, just Marines. Sk Terran woot woot. A lot of people were doing it in beta. Jinro was the first person I saw split against banelings but I'm sure there were others even before him. | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
Important to note though that this was close positions. I feel longer rush distances would make this build much, much weaker. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
That said, the ease of macroing with this type of build might make it work at lower levels just from the macro advantage. I am pretty sure that there is a level, I would say high diamond/low masters, where this build will have alot of trouble because of the level of macro skills without the same level of micro. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 22 2011 21:56 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well, most zergs that people on the forum play suck quite a bit and you can literally just a-move marines at them until you win. So there's not actually that much of a problem. You can beat them with mass marines but you can practice micro too so you can win better. A herd of blings rolling at you from a platinum scrub isn't much different than a herd of blings rolling at you from high diamond/masters. Uhhmmm ASM, I don't know bro. Master zergs seem to split and 'ff' so to speak with banes, and sling slipknot at the same time. I'm leveling a friends diamond account, and the zergs I'm facing in mid-high diamond are atrocious at any baneling micro. The big difference is the TIMING of the bane speed of a masters, and a high diamond zerg, coupled with their subsuquent macro and pre-flank army control. The mass marine style works VERY well if you have the tools to work it. You can't just A move mass marines and expect to win. As stated, you have to be all over the map with a infestation of marines. 16 marine drops, 8 marine drops, stim and runs, constant map presence. With that kind of on the ball play, you can force zergs into mistakes and corners to where they sac bases because you are at 2 at the same time. I'd reccomend any terran learn how to control two armies at the same time DECENTLY well against defensive units or not. Learning how to control split groups ALONE get your TvZ into another level compared to your other matchups. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
I just played a 45 min long game with this sort of build.... I had 3-4 bases, I kept the Zerg down to 2-3, constantly killing his expo and he'd constantly mop up those armies with FG. I was sure I would have won it. However, each time I was about to engage Ling+Infestor I would pre-emptively split my units to where one FG would only hit a couple. As I marched forward in attack formation my units would slowly converge on one point. I'd have to constantly reposition them. Replays show my APM reaching 300+ during these battles... but even with that high APM I was unable to adequately keep my bio army spread out -- it seems the AI insists on my bio being in a Fungalable ball!!! I lost the game inevitably because the trades were coming out in favor of my opponent who would take out large chunks with 1 FG after another. Quite frustrating. How do you propose us bio based Terrans positioning our armies and KEEPING them positioned? Micro is no hard thing for me, and I excel and baneling micro, but FG is something else. It's highly improbable to micro against once it is instant-cast, and the chain FG can't be stopped. My APM was triple of my Zerg opponent's and still my army fell to a lesser food army Sorry for the textwall. Any suggestions? EDIT: Change "impossible" to "highly improbable" for statistical reliability  | ||
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