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On April 23 2011 07:00 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:56 Antisocialmunky wrote:On April 22 2011 19:50 PredY wrote:On April 22 2011 19:34 OutlaW- wrote:On April 22 2011 16:59 PredY wrote:
you gotta realize that when you produce 20 marines per cycle or w/e you gotta have INSANEEEE multitasking abilities and without tanks a sick good marine control. Cuz if you send your 60 marines to attack and can't multitask your new marines it's pointless to play like that.
I'd be worried about mass infestors rather than banes but that can be countered by ghosts which you should get every time zerg goes infestors.
I think it's very hard without tanks unless you got 300 apm to babysit your army all the time and do other stuff as well. Raven followup is pretty cool tho. I start to get ravens almost every tvz now if i get into late game, i love how it completely owns broodlords ^^. Wouldn't that be an awesome way to practice multitasking and increasing your apm then? Definitely something people should toy around with if you know you will lose 90% games and it will take 100+ games to practise the multitasking and control, then yes  Well, most zergs that people on the forum play suck quite a bit and you can literally just a-move marines at them until you win. So there's not actually that much of a problem. You can beat them with mass marines but you can practice micro too so you can win better. A herd of blings rolling at you from a platinum scrub isn't much different than a herd of blings rolling at you from high diamond/masters. Uhhmmm ASM, I don't know bro. Master zergs seem to split and 'ff' so to speak with banes, and sling slipknot at the same time. I'm leveling a friends diamond account, and the zergs I'm facing in mid-high diamond are atrocious at any baneling micro. The big difference is the TIMING of the bane speed of a masters, and a high diamond zerg, coupled with their subsuquent macro and pre-flank army control. The mass marine style works VERY well if you have the tools to work it. You can't just A move mass marines and expect to win. As stated, you have to be all over the map with a infestation of marines. 16 marine drops, 8 marine drops, stim and runs, constant map presence. With that kind of on the ball play, you can force zergs into mistakes and corners to where they sac bases because you are at 2 at the same time. I'd reccomend any terran learn how to control two armies at the same time DECENTLY well against defensive units or not. Learning how to control split groups ALONE get your TvZ into another level compared to your other matchups.
Fair enough.
Actually, someone (the OP) should link Griffith's baneling map. Not sure if he ever made an infestor version but its pretty good practice.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 23 2011 08:01 RukKus wrote:I do have a question about combatting FG. I just played a 45 min long game with this sort of build.... I had 3-4 bases, I kept the Zerg down to 2-3, constantly killing his expo and he'd constantly mop up those armies with FG. I was sure I would have won it. However, each time I was about to engage Ling+Infestor I would pre-emptively split my units to where one FG would only hit a couple. As I marched forward in attack formation my units would slowly converge on one point. I'd have to constantly reposition them. Replays show my APM reaching 300+ during these battles... but even with that high APM I was unable to adequately keep my bio army spread out -- it seems the AI insists on my bio being in a Fungalable ball!!! I lost the game inevitably because the trades were coming out in favor of my opponent who would take out large chunks with 1 FG after another. Quite frustrating. How do you propose us bio based Terrans positioning our armies and KEEPING them positioned? Micro is no hard thing for me, and I excel and baneling micro, but FG is something else. It's highly improbable to micro against once it is instant-cast, and the chain FG can't be stopped. My APM was triple of my Zerg opponent's and still my army fell to a lesser food army  Sorry for the textwall. Any suggestions? EDIT: Change "impossible" to "highly improbable" for statistical reliability 
Thanks for your kind words
Make sure you are always sending a small marauder-heavy group of units ahead of your main army. I split my army manually as it moves and continues to converge. You need to be aware of where his infestors are and split before you engage and do stim run-ins and snipe as many infestors as you can. If he's on ling/bling/infestor, there's no way he can kill your marauders in time if the infestors are already well within range of the marauders.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
that's pretty sick. Thanks for translating!
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How do you use this strategy on a map like TalDarim Altar?
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
there's at least 2 games in there on tal'darim (vpchance and magic) so check out the rep pack
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roach ling infestor can rape this. keep fungaling and then charge in mass roaches and expert burrow play.
thing is anything works in NA server because 100% zergs there miss out billion injections, and they have poor macro.
as in your replays, your unit efficiency is poor with this. you basically brute forced it. if you have a careful look at the units lost tab, your one is even with his and but you spent 1000+ more on technology aka infrastructure cost of raxes etc. because you have mule + oversaturation you were able to always make army larger than zerg while keeping him on same number of bases.
quite possibly the best brute force all inish type of build, but against a good zerg that doesn't miss out injection too much, your army will be fungalled and then have so many roaches then your marauders can handle.
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On April 23 2011 17:31 getpicture wrote:
roach ling infestor can rape this. keep fungaling and then charge in mass roaches and expert burrow play.
thing is anything works in NA server because 100% zergs there miss out billion injections, and they have poor macro.
as in your replays, your unit efficiency is poor with this. you basically brute forced it. if you have a careful look at the units lost tab, your one is even with his and but you spent 1000+ more on technology aka infrastructure cost of raxes etc. because you have mule + oversaturation you were able to always make army larger than zerg while keeping him on same number of bases.
quite possibly the best brute force all inish type of build, but against a good zerg that doesn't miss out injection too much, your army will be fungalled and then have so many roaches then your marauders can handle.
Tbh my experience: First it isn't allin, since you don't really *need* to deal dmg at any point, that is to say, even trades, heck a bit poor trades are fine.
If the opponent goes roaches, you will have a huge advantage early game(since you don't have to worry to much about blings and roaches don't do *that* well against rines after stim before medivacs). Furthermore it's a challenge for your opponent to take bases, while you can take a 3rd and 4th pretty much free(dependant a bit on map, but roaches can't really pressure esp. when he needs them to defend).
Then it just comes down to splitting up your army to make 1 fungal(well 2, since if it does there will be a 2nd one) not hit 20 rines. The biggest thing is: make sure to be hitting 2 places at once. A handful of rines cleans a mineral line/hatch soooo fast, which has been the main reason for me, why I could overrun my opponent.
The best counter I've had done to me was muta ball cross position meta, where he was able to snipe engi bays, reactors and loads of scvs and get home and reinforce his army before mine arrived. Roaches did very bad(I supposed 7RR would've done better but that's allin so yer...), infestors did rather bad(well I was able to pre-split most of the time and it didn't end up doing as much dmg as one would expect).
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On April 23 2011 17:31 getpicture wrote:
roach ling infestor can rape this. keep fungaling and then charge in mass roaches and expert burrow play.
thing is anything works in NA server because 100% zergs there miss out billion injections, and they have poor macro.
as in your replays, your unit efficiency is poor with this. you basically brute forced it. if you have a careful look at the units lost tab, your one is even with his and but you spent 1000+ more on technology aka infrastructure cost of raxes etc. because you have mule + oversaturation you were able to always make army larger than zerg while keeping him on same number of bases.
quite possibly the best brute force all inish type of build, but against a good zerg that doesn't miss out injection too much, your army will be fungalled and then have so many roaches then your marauders can handle.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Forcing army trades is what this strategy is supposed to do, force units, the enemy doesn't make drones, while you make scv's. Things turn out in terrans favor.
and "roach ling infestor can rape this. keep fungaling and then charge in mass roaches and expert burrow play" is complete and utter bull/theorycraft. You've obviously never played this before, and you're just throwing in words. Question is, how the hell are you supposed to get to the point where you have roach with burrow, infestors and enough lings to hold this off? There's constant pressure, and without early game banelings, there's no way you're living through this.
In response to that, I can just counter your composition with mass battlecruiser and ghosts with expert emp play.
See what I did there?
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Rose tempest are you are zerg player pretending to be a terran player whining falsely about how op is this strat? It's not effective
infinity show some respect by challenging me or other decent zergs and i'll show you why this doesn't work. same goes all others out there. if u lose bo9 then delete this thread, Tl.net does not need noob strats.
In the end there's a reason why all top terran get marine tank. tanks > infestors/banelings.
marines barely break even against roaches with upgrades. all it takes it just one engagement. there's an easy way to zerg to solidify a push if terran isn't going marine tank.
ling muta gets owned but, when you have roach infestor baneling, hell don't even need roach speed go straight for burrow + tunneling.
the moment terran doesn't have tanks zerg can go heavy on roaches banelings/ infestor. all it takes is just one fungal at X point in time and then clash huge roach baneling army + 1 fungal and reinforcements won't even save you. the instantaneous burst of banelings is enough to take out 5 minutes of accumulated marine production.
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On April 23 2011 21:02 getpicture wrote:
Rose tempest are you are zerg player pretending to be a terran player whining falsely about how op is this strat? It's not effective
infinity show some respect by challenging me or other decent zergs and i'll show you why this doesn't work. same goes all others out there. if u lose bo9 then delete this thread, Tl.net does not need noob strats.
In the end there's a reason why all top terran get marine tank. tanks > infestors/banelings.
marines barely break even against roaches with upgrades. all it takes it just one engagement. there's an easy way to zerg to solidify a push if terran isn't going marine tank.
ling muta gets owned but, when you have roach infestor baneling, hell don't even need roach speed go straight for burrow + tunneling.
the moment terran doesn't have tanks zerg can go heavy on roaches banelings/ infestor. all it takes is just one fungal at X point in time and then clash huge roach baneling army + 1 fungal and reinforcements won't even save you. the instantaneous burst of banelings is enough to take out 5 minutes of accumulated marine production.
Putting this build aside, if you beat me in a bo9 where I proxy gate every single game means that proxy gate isn't a valid strategy? Your posts are wrong on so many levels because you assume way too much without actually thinking through your arguments, to me it looks like you just want to hate something and this build just happened to go by your radar -.-
All you really do is theorycraft, you deny a ''new'' strategy because your insufficient knowledge of the game makes you think that there's no way this could work
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Don't feed the trolls guys
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On April 23 2011 21:02 getpicture wrote:
Rose tempest are you are zerg player pretending to be a terran player whining falsely about how op is this strat? It's not effective
infinity show some respect by challenging me or other decent zergs and i'll show you why this doesn't work. same goes all others out there. if u lose bo9 then delete this thread, Tl.net does not need noob strats.
In the end there's a reason why all top terran get marine tank. tanks > infestors/banelings.
marines barely break even against roaches with upgrades. all it takes it just one engagement. there's an easy way to zerg to solidify a push if terran isn't going marine tank.
ling muta gets owned but, when you have roach infestor baneling, hell don't even need roach speed go straight for burrow + tunneling.
the moment terran doesn't have tanks zerg can go heavy on roaches banelings/ infestor. all it takes is just one fungal at X point in time and then clash huge roach baneling army + 1 fungal and reinforcements won't even save you. the instantaneous burst of banelings is enough to take out 5 minutes of accumulated marine production.
First of all, learn to use the quote button.
Second, false accusations/general bad manner, TL doesn't need trash like you etc etc. (yes I do know it's probably a troll)
Third, you don't make any sense at all, in a bo9, if you tell your opponent what you're doing in every, single, fucking, match, then eventually they'll pick up on things and do things to blindly counter your build. Lets say zerg tells you he's going to 2 base baneling bust every game, what do you do? Prepare for it. Zerg loses 9/10 times, but does it somehow make the strategy invalid? Absolutely not, it's still good when the Terran is too greedy etc.
This build wasn't meant to be the end-all of all TvZ builds. It's fun, and its effective, and against someone with a similar skill level, playing random matches, this will perform very well.
Show some respect to people with more experience than you, and I bet my ass infinity can wipe the floor with you in a bo9 or whatever you choose to do, don't go around calling yourself a "top zerg".
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On April 23 2011 17:31 getpicture wrote:
roach ling infestor can rape this. keep fungaling and then charge in mass roaches and expert burrow play.
thing is anything works in NA server because 100% zergs there miss out billion injections, and they have poor macro.
as in your replays, your unit efficiency is poor with this. you basically brute forced it. if you have a careful look at the units lost tab, your one is even with his and but you spent 1000+ more on technology aka infrastructure cost of raxes etc. because you have mule + oversaturation you were able to always make army larger than zerg while keeping him on same number of bases.
quite possibly the best brute force all inish type of build, but against a good zerg that doesn't miss out injection too much, your army will be fungalled and then have so many roaches then your marauders can handle.
watch his replays/learn to play before you talk please. OP beat a GM zerg who used the exact unit composition you suggested...and no the zerg didn't play awfully
anyways, thanks infinity for sharing your replay pack. your playstyle is really entertaining to watch and i look forward to trying it out on the ladder.
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I've had this exact strat (pure marines, fast double upgrades, more marines) done to me on Xel Naga a while ago. It was one of the most frustrating things to deal with. He'd drop 2 medivacs worth of marines in my main, and when I sent my army back to deal with it he would send like 30 marines to kill my gold or my 4th and kept doing that over and over. I won just about every battle with banes but still lost cause he just had so many dam marines over and over and he wouldn't let me secure my 3rd and 4th,
I watched the replay though and concluded I could have gone infestors, which I did the next time I ran in to this style. I have to say, infestors absolutely murdered this strat. Just infestor ling with about 8 mutas for air control, and this was before the DPS buff. Key difference is he never used ghosts, which do pretty well at limiting infestor play, and with just lings banelings and infestors its actually pretty hard to snipe ghosts if theres a marine army behind it. I can see this being a lot like TvP where you have EMP vs storm / feedback micro wars
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Its these kinds of builds that make marines feel so strong :D. I cant wait to go home today to watch theses replays because this seems like a really fun build... very MKP stylish (MKP Fighting!). Great post and with lots of detail!
My average APM is 80 and peaks at about 130-150 in battle. I can make it to level 16 in the Marine splitting map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206136 -- very fun map, cant believe record is lvl 26 O_O). I think this build will help me with my multitasking skills and hopefully I will get good enough to micro everything.
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infestors just stops this bar none
User was temp banned from the strategy forum for this post
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On April 25 2011 00:03 mGMUSE wrote:
infestors just stops this bar none
Please just post a replay of you getting stomped vs Infestors and we'll tell you what you did wrong. To a point infestors own this build if used exactly correctly with great FG's. You have to shut down the infestors by a great spread on units, also if a zerg is going infestors you can transition.....
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
lol I'm not going to do a showmatch with anyone unless Saracen has a problem with this thread. Then we'll do a bo3!
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Hi Infinity21,
Any chances you get another link for your replays?
I'm coming from Asia and it's showing "This service is temporarily not available from your service area."
Many thanks! Cheers
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EPT
