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So, obviously this isn't something new - I guess - and I've been trying it out.
Basically, this should be a timing push against protosses that go FE, either 3gate FE or forge FE, and the point of the push is to deal significant damage to the Protoss, either killing a good amount of army(consider roaches are very cost efficient vs gateway units), sniping any gas heavy units(sentries, immortals).
How does it work
I've tried this as a follow-up to Spanishiwa's No Gas FE.
+ Show Spoiler [Build Order] +- 16 Hatchery
- 15 Pool
- 18 Overlord
- 2 Queens when possible
- More two queens when possible
- Keep droning until 16 drones on each base
- @32 drones: 4 Extractors
- (replace extractor drones as well)
- @100 Gas: Lair
- @2nd 100Gas: Ling Speed
--Deviation from Spanishiwa's Builld--
- @1st 100 Gas: Evolution Chamber(Throw it with the Lair)
- @25% Lair: 2 Roach Warrens(You can throw it at roughly 31% Lair actually)
- @100% evo chamber: +1 Missile Attack
- @100% Lair: Burrow, Glial Reconstitution, Tunneling Claws
- Constant Roach production from here
- Transitions
This is how it works: At about 10:25, All four upgrades will be done and you will have 21 roaches completed, and 9 in production - perhaps more, because I just can't do this build correctly, since I keep missing OL timings -.-
The push works in a way that it will hit HARD the protoss who is going for any build that relies on sentries for defense and/or offense. Speed allows you to reinforce your first batch of(30) roaches, or to simply make it harder for the protoss to stop and - if necessary - to retreat with little losses. Tunneling Claws and Burrow obviously allow you to make sentries completely useless.
Problems encountered when doing this build
- Excess gas. This can be easily fixed by taking your drones off from the fourth gas after you grab the important upgrades. You can also halt the Roach production a little in favor of more tech(OL speed, Overseer, another upgrade).
- Wall offs. This is probably the most efficient way for a Protoss to defend themselves against this, but it is easily circumvented by two volleys of attacks from the roaches. Either way, having a roach-heavy army is not a bad thing at all, and allows you to take total control of the map.
- Fast air. This is a poor reaction however, and many people are sure of it. First because fast air will be ineffective against your four queens and you can always throw down spore crawlers since you'll get an evo chamber anyways. Also, this will low down the gateway count for the Protoss, giving you an edge.
- Super turtle mass cannons. Impossible to break, but your map control will make the Protoss useless: you can just expand twice and be fine. You have a good, stable economy with this build and transitioning out of it is easy. Then all you need to do is deny any possible third base while massing up. Just thank the fact that Shakuras Plateau was changed so they can't take a free third like the could before 
Transitions
After doing your first 30-roach blow in your oponent, you can basically do whatever you want - assuming the engagement wasn't a total fuck-up and you reduced his numbers significantly. Taking a third is the best option, but you can also take Drops and nydus to freak out the Protoss.
Notice it is very hard to actually crush this push. Even if the Protoss made constant immortal production, you can always back off to a larger space and just contain him while you expand. Notice that "containing" the toss is necessary if, and only if, he is trying to hard counter it with tons of units that will end up eating his supply, which is advantageous to you. He can't really tech to collossus since that will reduce his unit count significantly, and that will give you a window of opportunity.
Also, This build doesn't include a big investment at all. One Roach Warren is not a big deal - 150 minerals is two roaches -50 gas - and it just allows you to get a faster tech after doing an opening that provides little tech(the very delayed gas).
I've included two replays where I do this, one versus a 3gate-FE protoss that goes for robo tech(altho a bit late), and the other versus a full-wall forge-FE toss that.. well... goes for every single possible tech off two bases. Either way, despite the mistakes that occur late, the point is how the push deals good amount of damage and enables you to expand even when the possible "counter" to it(choke + mass imortals) isn't enough to make it ineffective.
Also note that on the Forge FE game, I missed the build because I made a round of roaches, completely screwing the timing.
http://sc2shr.com/Wu - vs 3gate FE
http://sc2shr.com/Wv - vs Forge FE
(by the way, sc2shr.com is a site very similar to tinypic for sc2 replays, I really recommend it)
Discuss about the build, and if you have any suggestion to make the build better or if you know any terrible terrible flaw with it, please let us know1
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By 11 minutes, I think you could have researched both roach upgrades from one warren. Just brainstorming here, but if the idea is to get glial, burrow, and tunneling claws as soon as possible off of two warrens, you'll want the timing to be before the Protoss has detection. Otherwise, I don't think there's any reason to get two warrens instead of, say, two evo chambers.
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As a gold protoss player, I like to see this type of innovative thinking (especially from zerg players) as opposed to the simple "That's OP." I believe this build is worth looking at and I look forward to seeing how it develops, especially after the demonstration (and recent adoption) by oGsMC of how powerful sentries can be when used correctly against zerg.
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On April 19 2011 12:04 daglivewire wrote:
By 11 minutes, I think you could have researched both roach upgrades from one warren. Just brainstorming here, but if the idea is to get glial, burrow, and tunneling claws as soon as possible off of two warrens, you'll want the timing to be before the Protoss has detection. Otherwise, I don't think there's any reason to get two warrens instead of, say, two evo chambers.
The idea is to use it as a follow-up from Spanishiwa's "Ice Fisher" build. Basically, this is as fast as you can get it after staying gasless until the 32 drones mark.
Also, the detection isn't an issue. The point of this tunneling-speed +1 timing push is to avoid Forcefields to cause damage to a sentry-focused fast expand build.
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This build can be viable if you keep using overlord to scout for stargate, as you spend so much money on a ground force that cannot attack air; 1~2 voidrays can already ruin your day.
This can be a very good "counter" for the 3 gate expand build though, as you ignore their FF and energy saved up in sentries, which is the key for P to hold off Z aggression.
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As a follow up to the ice fisher, voids shouldn't be a problem if the zerg has connected his bases with creep as the extra queens pretty much nullify early air. Plus this calls for fast ups so you already have the evo chamber for spores.
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I've considered a similar variation of this build myself, however the clear drawback is that in order to get the extra roach warren/speed you have to make a huge investment. Tunneling claws + burrow (especially +1 variations) requires a ton of gas, especially when you consider making lots of roaches. The advantage to having speed for the timing attack to me does not outweigh the additional costs incurred as a result of getting the extra roach warren and upgrade. You can get close to the protoss army with burrowed movement, and escape also usually not an issue because you can just burrow away (if they have observers that fast their army shouldn't be large enough to pressure your retreat too much safely).
Overall, the idea is good but its just not worth it because speed doesn't make a huge difference when you have burrow movement and the cost is huge.
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On April 19 2011 12:33 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I've considered a similar variation of this build myself, however the clear drawback is that in order to get the extra roach warren/speed you have to make a huge investment. Tunneling claws + burrow (especially +1 variations) requires a ton of gas, especially when you consider making lots of roaches. The advantage to having speed for the timing attack to me does not outweigh the additional costs incurred as a result of getting the extra roach warren and upgrade. You can get close to the protoss army with burrowed movement, and escape also usually not an issue because you can just burrow away (if they have observers that fast their army shouldn't be large enough to pressure your retreat too much safely).
Overall, the idea is good but its just not worth it because speed doesn't make a huge difference when you have burrow movement and the cost is huge.
That was something that I thought as well, but the great point of this is to use in Huge maps, such as Shakuras Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar. Basically, the roach speed is the differential when aggressively rallying the stream of roaches.
Also, considering Spanishiwa's build nature, I don't think this is a really huge investment at all - a lot of people say that floating minerals with it is pretty common, heck why not spend a 150 more minerals just to get a faster upgrade you'd end up getting anyways?
Both my replays were on Shakuras Plateau, but I haven't really got the chance to trying it on Tal'Darim Altar, where I think this build should be even more effective.
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I used to do this with late game templar archives against zerg for storm + amulet to get out insanely fast storms, so I do like the double structure upgrade powering concept. But I'm not exactly sure what effect having both speed and burrow at the same time early game can do. It would greatly help re-inforcements if you were to go for a bust, but if you want more staying power, getting just one upgrade over the other would help out more (stargate speed + burrow, gateway burrow + tunneling). Getting both would help if you were going 2 base all-in roach bust, though. You are basically sacrificing being able to take a 3rd and having overlord speed (justified by the 350 minerals for drone + warren + research totaling to 350 minerals and 100 gas, which the drone would have been mining slightly longer before sacrificing for hatchery), and 1 to have your roaches move faster when tunneling claws hits (if they go sentry heavy, you don't need to outrun them, really, just get under forcefields, and glaill doesn't increase burrow movement speed), and a normal timing for tunneling + burrow hits about the time a warpgate pressure or all-in with sentries would come. I do like automatically getting burrow once lair is done if you are using a roach-based strategy, however. That should remain a constant imo.
This would probably be great to punish fast stargate, though, and allow you to stream roaches across the map quickly, while avoiding void rays and phoenixes in the middle of the map.
So this type of build WOULD give you a huge army tech advantage for a very specific timing window, but would sacrifice some key components of the later stages of the game that both happen at a very specific point in the mid game. Have you worked out drone counts and the lair timing? Do you go lair before zergling speed, or do you try to skip it for faster upgrades? When do you pull drones off of the 4th gas (only need 3 geysers to support constant roaches after upgrades finish)? Just asking some general questions to get an idea of your triggers and timings. I added a few points of consideration to give the opportunity cost of the extra roach warren, and how it fits in. I think it has some potential for a really cool 2 base timing attack.
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This should work ok against 6 gate pushes, and even stargate builds since there isn't enough time to get out many void rays, but I think the extra roach warren makes your intentions too clear. It looks like there's plenty of time to scout that, and just start chronoing immortals from 2 robos, since it's obvious you're going heavy on roaches.
At the very least, you should probably build the 2 roach warrens on separate ends of your base to make it harder to spot.
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While tunneling claws are nice, I feel this build makes many assumptions, and actually leaves you open to some potential ass-kicking.
If the Protoss closes his wall completely as a reaction to scouting this double warren, and grabs a stargate or a robo you could be in for a world of hurt.
Against a forge build, your roaches would be detected, and against a complete walloff, unable to exploit the forcefield ignore that is tunneling claws.
I'm not saying it's not viable, just a speedling roach all-in as a reaction to protoss FE will come quicker and in greater numbers. Maybe I'll give this type of build a try, to see if it works out.
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Like previously mentioned, this build is susceptible to heavy immortal builds. A 3 gate robo push would probably kill you. What I do is a 13 minute push with all the same upgrades and number of roaches but with ~4 infestors added in. Fungal growth will give you a fighting chance against immortals since it does 4 roach hits' worth of damage against hardened shield. At the least you should be able to wipe out their sentries.
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What about this:
Get 2 evolution chamber and +1 range +1 defense, you need to start it first because it take so long to research.
Make only one roach warren, as normal. Get borrow movement upgrade only.
Make one Hidralisk Den, because, really, chances are he'll scout and have imortals and it is good against everything pre-colossus I guess. Don't make any Hidra, cause you won't use them for the initial push.
Make a Nydus Worm later on, so it finishes at the time slow roachs get there.
Try to sneaky with most roachs and also sneaky a Nydus in base at the same time, if you feel it's impossíble to sneak the nydus, at least make a "proxy pylon" if you know what I mean. Keep producing either hidras or roachs and send them through Nydus Network.
Also, you can hide the Hidra and Nydus tech. I guess the nydus you can just start really late so chances are he won't scout it.
Edit: Also, why do you get speedlings, they are late enough to be useless, aren't they. If a expanding protoss pushes, he'll have Force Fields and zealots, shouldn't it be better defended with roachs alone? Why do you need the speed on lings that early? Anyway, at least I guess you can cancel the speed at the last second if the reason that made you think of it shows to be non-existent.
Edit2: ok, thought you were trying a 2 base all-in, I was thinking to make the all in stronger :D
It might actually be a good 2 base all in though, just have to time the right amount of mineral/gas roachs and hidras for what I thought lol.
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I do this often, works really well and is incredibly strong.
Problems I had is the excess minerals which I fixed by continuously making queens and using them with my mahusive roach army.
Its 3 bases worth of minerals and 2 bases worth of gas to have constant roach production with no left over resources (16 drones on minerals and 6 on gas per base).
Or 2 base worth of mineral and gas with constant queen production (or at least near constant).
Edit: My standard unit comp vs Zerg and Protoss, only difference is if I see Hydras or Infestors I get Infestors, if I see Collosi I get Corrupters.
You can even skip a few queens and take a 3rd with some initial Zerglings you build and just do constant Roach production. You get maxed stupidly fast.
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i prefer double evo +1 +1 plus burrow and speed.
when you first have burrow he has no obs so can just wait for FF to dispel itself. a little later when they have an obs then you already have tunneling claws.
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This seems like a very good push against a sentry expand and i think the most important factor that most people don't think of is that at this point zerg actually has a much bigger army and the reason toss survives this is by forcefields. But by tunneling claws, even if you get detected, your army has an insane regen and because of speed, you are reinforcing all the time.
A complete wall-in doesn't really help much, since you can just burrow, unburrow, attack and burrow again with probably no roaches dying.
What some people fail to see is that this is a follow up to spanishiwas build, and thus you get a booming amount of gas, i would actually think that on 4gas while you're waiting for your lair, you could get double 1+ and still have enough gas, since roaches only need 3gas for 2base production.
And guys, a roach warren extra for speed = 2 roaches minus 50 gas. That is not a big deal, but a timing push where you get sooooo many upgrades at once is super strong compared to what the warren costs.
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On April 19 2011 12:48 Gooey wrote:
I used to do this with late game templar archives against zerg for storm + amulet to get out insanely fast storms, so I do like the double structure upgrade powering concept. But I'm not exactly sure what effect having both speed and burrow at the same time early game can do. It would greatly help re-inforcements if you were to go for a bust, but if you want more staying power, getting just one upgrade over the other would help out more (stargate speed + burrow, gateway burrow + tunneling). Getting both would help if you were going 2 base all-in roach bust, though. You are basically sacrificing being able to take a 3rd and having overlord speed (justified by the 350 minerals for drone + warren + research totaling to 350 minerals and 100 gas, which the drone would have been mining slightly longer before sacrificing for hatchery), and 1 to have your roaches move faster when tunneling claws hits (if they go sentry heavy, you don't need to outrun them, really, just get under forcefields, and glaill doesn't increase burrow movement speed), and a normal timing for tunneling + burrow hits about the time a warpgate pressure or all-in with sentries would come. I do like automatically getting burrow once lair is done if you are using a roach-based strategy, however. That should remain a constant imo.
This would probably be great to punish fast stargate, though, and allow you to stream roaches across the map quickly, while avoiding void rays and phoenixes in the middle of the map.
So this type of build WOULD give you a huge army tech advantage for a very specific timing window, but would sacrifice some key components of the later stages of the game that both happen at a very specific point in the mid game. Have you worked out drone counts and the lair timing? Do you go lair before zergling speed, or do you try to skip it for faster upgrades? When do you pull drones off of the 4th gas (only need 3 geysers to support constant roaches after upgrades finish)? Just asking some general questions to get an idea of your triggers and timings. I added a few points of consideration to give the opportunity cost of the extra roach warren, and how it fits in. I think it has some potential for a really cool 2 base timing attack.
This is NOT an all-in, let's clarify this.
As I said, it is based off Sanishiwa's no-gas build, which works like this:
- 16 Hatch
- 15 Pool
- 18 Overlord
- 2 queens ASAP(as OL and 2nd hatch finishes)
- Constantly make drones
- As 2 queens finishes, +2 queens
- Make drones until you have 16 on each base
- As you get into the 40 food(32 drones + 4 queens), Throw down 4 extractors
- @1st 100 gas: Lair
- @2nd 100 gas: Ling speed
And then you continue with my build.
Not only this build is extremely greedy, it leaves enough excess minerals to grab a third base after you get all upgrades. Even with constant 2base roach production, there will be this excess of minerals that allows you to expand.
The push is not designed to instantly kill your opponent. It is designed to reduce his gas-heavy unit count: Sentries, Immortals(if possible) and even Stalkers. Even when you are detected, the burrowed SPEED roaches will be able to go through FFs easily to punish a sentry-heavy expansion.
Wall-offs are, indeed, a problem. Which is fixed with two volleys of your roaches, since you have so many. But then it would come down to control, and you'd still have a 3rd base to fall off anyways.
@Tachi
I thought on a second evo as well, but +1 armor costs 150 gas and it really cuts on the roach count on this timing, and also slows it down, so I dislike it.
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On April 19 2011 11:29 Zephirdd wrote:
There is a problem however. I'm nowhere near a good skill level to know if this is actually good or if it is actually easily countered(although I find it very hard), therefore I'd need other people's opinions regarding this.
[...]
What do you guys think about this kind of timing push? is it viable, or is it just something that "just works because of lower leagues"?
Common misconception my man, builds aren't black or white.
If it works for you at that level, it's good. If the style hits hard it's awesome. If a good player does it perfectly and it dosen't work, it's not the build's fault. Builds or ideas, well in essence, strategies, can be good at any level. It dosen't work better if it's lower against lower, or even high skill against low skill. Ideas are powerful in this game, and that's why so many people love it I guess.
2 roach warrens are not bad, it's only 150 minerals for a quicker push. I will try it~
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To the OP. I just played around with YABOT a bit, and i found that if you simply skip ling speed, which you won't use for the push anyway (since you're getting roach speed so you can reinforce with roaches) you can easily get a +1 carapace too. This really helps, since the tickle beams already do so little damage that roaches pretty much regen faster than the sentry DPS.
Here's a replay that shows me using this against a clanmate (just a few minutes ago), unfortunately i am on my laptop, (which lags like hell) so i am unable to do everything the way i wanted it too. IN addition he walled himself off pretty good, so i ended up nydusing his main, which just proved how immensely good this strat is if he doesnt have a choke/wall.
Roach timing with +1+1/burrow movement/speed
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On April 19 2011 12:33 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I've considered a similar variation of this build myself, however the clear drawback is that in order to get the extra roach warren/speed you have to make a huge investment. Tunneling claws + burrow (especially +1 variations) requires a ton of gas, especially when you consider making lots of roaches. The advantage to having speed for the timing attack to me does not outweigh the additional costs incurred as a result of getting the extra roach warren and upgrade. You can get close to the protoss army with burrowed movement, and escape also usually not an issue because you can just burrow away (if they have observers that fast their army shouldn't be large enough to pressure your retreat too much safely).
Overall, the idea is good but its just not worth it because speed doesn't make a huge difference when you have burrow movement and the cost is huge.
This.
Butttttttttttt
I like the idea of this build and since 2 hatchs and 4 gas is way too much gas for roach productions you could add a nydus network and send some drones + queens through into his main while you attack his natural with your roach army, the network could then be used to reinforce and the queens that you bring along should be able to deal with 1-3 voids pretty easily with transfuse, you could also use a couple of the drones you bring to make some spore crawlers and spine crawlers for even more annoyance
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the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. I understand that you're saying that this build isn't meant to be all in, but think about it; if you're investing so much extra just to get a marginal timing advantage, you really *should* be all in. All ins or heavy timing attacks are the only thing where huge added investment for little return is useful, because they can tip the balance. However, this 11 minute attack doesn't rely on any strong timing (except perhaps before colossus). By 11 minutes protoss can very easily have an observer and an immortal, along with several sentries and a handful of stalkers. I agree you can kill several sentries in this attack but unless you find a strong way to transition or to maintain tempo, I find it hard to rationalize the second roach warren. Most notably, the 150 minerals on the second roach warren would likely go towards your 3rd expo which seems to be your next step in this build.
Another thing is that I don't think this synergizes well with the ice fisher. Ice fisher gives you a big mineral economy, and relatively late tech. Again, whatever few extra roaches you might have because of this bigger economy is sacrificed in the late tech, and second roach warren to compensate.
One more thing is that you need to decide (for yourself and perhaps include it in your post) what you're going to do after this attack. Given that you can't reliably do critical damage every game with it, what's the next step? you'll probably be accumulating gas at this point, with heavily upgrades roaches that give you decent map control but eat up your supply, and once protoss stabilizes, won't give you much potential for aggression. What then?
Overall, yes it's a strategy where all the upgrades combined make for an attack that more or less makes sense, and sniping sentries around the midgame ZvP is commonly understood as a good idea. However, for a build to be good you really want every single thing in your gameplay to rationalize and call for everything else, and as it stands your arguments just don't support each other as much as I would like.
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A tunneling claws + burrow timing hits as early as 9:30, potentially a minute and a half earlier than this push hits, so unfortunately I do not think the mineral/gas investment is not worth it in this case.
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On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. I understand that you're saying that this build isn't meant to be all in, but think about it; if you're investing so much extra just to get a marginal timing advantage, you really *should* be all in. All ins or heavy timing attacks are the only thing where huge added investment for little return is useful, because they can tip the balance. However, this 11 minute attack doesn't rely on any strong timing (except perhaps before colossus). By 11 minutes protoss can very easily have an observer and an immortal, along with several sentries and a handful of stalkers. I agree you can kill several sentries in this attack but unless you find a strong way to transition or to maintain tempo, I find it hard to rationalize the second roach warren. Most notably, the 150 minerals on the second roach warren would likely go towards your 3rd expo which seems to be your next step in this build.
Another thing is that I don't think this synergizes well with the ice fisher. Ice fisher gives you a big mineral economy, and relatively late tech. Again, whatever few extra roaches you might have because of this bigger economy is sacrificed in the late tech, and second roach warren to compensate.
One more thing is that you need to decide (for yourself and perhaps include it in your post) what you're going to do after this attack. Given that you can't reliably do critical damage every game with it, what's the next step? you'll probably be accumulating gas at this point, with heavily upgrades roaches that give you decent map control but eat up your supply, and once protoss stabilizes, won't give you much potential for aggression. What then?
Overall, yes it's a strategy where all the upgrades combined make for an attack that more or less makes sense, and sniping sentries around the midgame ZvP is commonly understood as a good idea. However, for a build to be good you really want every single thing in your gameplay to rationalize and call for everything else, and as it stands your arguments just don't support each other as much as I would like.
The idea is to lock the Protoss in his base while you expand, as should every Zerg attack work. The excess gas can be used in something else like +1 carapace or even overlord speed - it doesn't matter.
It is NOT a "huge" investment at all. Considering the drone, it's only 200 minerals for a roach warren, getting a much faster tech on a build which has "tech" as one of its downs(the Ice Fisher, I mean).
The Ice Fisher also gives you excess minerals after your first few roaches - assuming you are still getting extra tech, like OL speed or +2 attack/+1 armor, or even an Overseer - and those excess minerals perfectly line up with the fact that you want to grab a third base while pressuring your opponent, instead of allowing him to freely tech.
Also, regarding "by that time he has an obs and an immortal" - I've tested this build with YABOT to grab information about it, and despite barely missing an overlord(which had no impact in the build besides slowing down the third queen), at exactly 10:40 I had 23 Roaches and 8 more in production, with all three upgrades.
Notice that my build was not perfect: I didn't take my lair exactly at 100 gas and I had a few 5-second supply blocks, so you'd expect this build to have even more units when better executed.
I seriously doubt an obs and an immortal(plus the oh-so useless sentries) would be enough to hold about thirty roaches by that time.
Gonna update the OP with more information btw, thanks for pointing that out.
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On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in.
so does the idea of 2 evos scream all in too?
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I like the idea of this because roach warrens are so cheap. However you would definately need to transition out of this into something else. It is way too easy to max on roaches and if the protoss does hold and you don't transition he could end up with an advantage. I think aggressively trading roaches with the toss is essential, especially for gas heavy units as you mention. If you just try to contain so you can expand and you don't actually do damage to the toss, the build may suffer somewhat. I am definately a fan of reducing sentry count and energy early though with a push like this.
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OP updated with important information, like numbers and the problem of excess gas - which I didn't notice until I tried to actually polish the build and lower down the time it is ready. Not a big deal tho.
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On April 20 2011 06:16 SaviorSelf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. so does the idea of 2 evos scream all in too?
The second evo is only useless once you max out upgrades. The second warren is too, but obviously you max out roach upgrades much faster.
The whole "all-in/not all-in" dichotomy is a false one in general -- many builds sacrifice future strength for present strength, some more extreme than others, with the idea that the present strength can be used to force an equal or greater longterm disadvantage on the opponent. The builds that people call "all in" are just on one end of that continuum.
Building an extra roach warren is unequivocally this. It's sacrificing 150 minerals and a drone to get roach speed faster. This is sacrificing future strength for short-term power, in the hopes that by having roach speed for your first push you'll get more than 200 minerals of utility out of it.
What it *does* scream is "I'm going to hit you in a very particular timing window with speed tunneling roaches, and I am going to hit you with a lot of them, because I'm expecting to get my investment back." It's a scouting telegraph, certainly.
So, don't build your two warrens next to each other, unless you're using them to simcity and don't mind being obvious.
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On April 20 2011 06:49 entropius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:16 SaviorSelf wrote:On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. so does the idea of 2 evos scream all in too? The second evo is only useless once you max out upgrades. The second warren is too, but obviously you max out roach upgrades much faster. The whole "all-in/not all-in" dichotomy is a false one in general -- many builds sacrifice future strength for present strength, some more extreme than others, with the idea that the present strength can be used to force an equal or greater longterm disadvantage on the opponent. The builds that people call "all in" are just on one end of that continuum. Building an extra roach warren is unequivocally this. It's sacrificing 150 minerals and a drone to get roach speed faster. This is sacrificing future strength for short-term power, in the hopes that by having roach speed for your first push you'll get more than 200 minerals of utility out of it. What it *does* scream is "I'm going to hit you in a very particular timing window with speed tunneling roaches, and I am going to hit you with a lot of them, because I'm expecting to get my investment back." It's a scouting telegraph, certainly. So, don't build your two warrens next to each other, unless you're using them to simcity and don't mind being obvious.
Well, regarding this...
200 minerals is not a big deal. At all. Maybe it would be a good idea to try and hide it(heck, you have 4 queens, spread the creep everywhere), but it isn't the end of the world if its scouted. It is still very strong.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:54 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:49 entropius wrote:On April 20 2011 06:16 SaviorSelf wrote:On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. so does the idea of 2 evos scream all in too? The second evo is only useless once you max out upgrades. The second warren is too, but obviously you max out roach upgrades much faster. The whole "all-in/not all-in" dichotomy is a false one in general -- many builds sacrifice future strength for present strength, some more extreme than others, with the idea that the present strength can be used to force an equal or greater longterm disadvantage on the opponent. The builds that people call "all in" are just on one end of that continuum. Building an extra roach warren is unequivocally this. It's sacrificing 150 minerals and a drone to get roach speed faster. This is sacrificing future strength for short-term power, in the hopes that by having roach speed for your first push you'll get more than 200 minerals of utility out of it. What it *does* scream is "I'm going to hit you in a very particular timing window with speed tunneling roaches, and I am going to hit you with a lot of them, because I'm expecting to get my investment back." It's a scouting telegraph, certainly. So, don't build your two warrens next to each other, unless you're using them to simcity and don't mind being obvious. Well, regarding this... 200 minerals is not a big deal. At all. Maybe it would be a good idea to try and hide it(heck, you have 4 queens, spread the creep everywhere), but it isn't the end of the world if its scouted. It is still very strong.
But it still would be a good idea to build the warrens far apart.
And have you thought about skipping ling speed (and giving up 2 roaches) to get +1 carapace?
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On April 20 2011 07:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:54 Zephirdd wrote:On April 20 2011 06:49 entropius wrote:On April 20 2011 06:16 SaviorSelf wrote:On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. so does the idea of 2 evos scream all in too? The second evo is only useless once you max out upgrades. The second warren is too, but obviously you max out roach upgrades much faster. The whole "all-in/not all-in" dichotomy is a false one in general -- many builds sacrifice future strength for present strength, some more extreme than others, with the idea that the present strength can be used to force an equal or greater longterm disadvantage on the opponent. The builds that people call "all in" are just on one end of that continuum. Building an extra roach warren is unequivocally this. It's sacrificing 150 minerals and a drone to get roach speed faster. This is sacrificing future strength for short-term power, in the hopes that by having roach speed for your first push you'll get more than 200 minerals of utility out of it. What it *does* scream is "I'm going to hit you in a very particular timing window with speed tunneling roaches, and I am going to hit you with a lot of them, because I'm expecting to get my investment back." It's a scouting telegraph, certainly. So, don't build your two warrens next to each other, unless you're using them to simcity and don't mind being obvious. Well, regarding this... 200 minerals is not a big deal. At all. Maybe it would be a good idea to try and hide it(heck, you have 4 queens, spread the creep everywhere), but it isn't the end of the world if its scouted. It is still very strong. But it still would be a good idea to build the warrens far apart. And have you thought about skipping ling speed (and giving up 2 roaches) to get +1 carapace?
Someone suggested that already, but I don't think skipping the ling speed would be useful. First because you never know what you may need in the game, and nothing says "FML" more than getting into the 25min mark and needing lings to harass somewhere just to see that you never got ling speed. Also, +1 armor won't make that much difference except to sentries' DPS, especially if the protoss is getting immortals.
Basically, its a personal choice, I just don't think the usefulness of ling speed can be skipped for a +1 armor here, even though I basically don't get lings. It's a good idea and probably would make the push even stronger however.
Also, I don't remember exactly, but I *think* that would make the timing off by about 5 seconds, no big deal.
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The problem with this is that any decent Protoss gets Hallucination as he drops his Nexus and continually scouts. When he sees 2 Roach Warrens and a bunch of Roaches being made, he'll know that some attack is coming. It's standard to get at least 1-2 Cannons at your natural when doing the 3 Gate Sentry expand, and the safest course of action is to drop a Robo after you expand. This means that the Protoss will have plenty of detection and units to fend this attack off.
This will pretty much destroy a standard 6 Gate push, but it won't really be worth it vs. safer play or even something like a 5-6 Gate Blink timing. You're putting enough into these Roaches that your tech is far enough behind the Protoss that it doesn't really matter that much if you delay his third for a while.
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I've started using a similar build (but probably more standard) in ZvP when it appears that they are 3 gating. Trouble is, it's extremely hard to tell, and the build completely relies on no warp gate rushes.
My version of the build rushes roach speed or burrow movement though, not both. It's also faster I think (maybe around 8.5 to10 minute mark) because I get gas quite fast for the lair, get less roaches, and don't get ranged attack upgrade.
Once I accidently built two warrens, and with it I did a double upgrade and won, I tried doing it again, but it seems to be spending too much money and comming too late for it to be as useful.
On April 19 2011 11:29 Zephirdd wrote:
This is how it works: At about 10:25, All three upgrades will be done and you will have 21 roaches completed, and 9 in production - perhaps more, because I just can't do this build correctly, since I keep missing OL timings -.- I think you mean 4 upgrades, because of ranged attack, right?
10:25 sounds a bit fast, but I can't say it's impossible. I open with 11 OP (for around 18 hatch) which is a bit worse economy, but then again I think it's really useful to completely counter any sort of cheese or hatch blocking. How are you going to hatch first when they probe/pylon block the natural?
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On April 20 2011 08:49 gdalam wrote:
The problem with this is that any decent Protoss gets Hallucination as he drops his Nexus and continually scouts. When he sees 2 Roach Warrens and a bunch of Roaches being made, he'll know that some attack is coming. It's standard to get at least 1-2 Cannons at your natural when doing the 3 Gate Sentry expand, and the safest course of action is to drop a Robo after you expand. This means that the Protoss will have plenty of detection and units to fend this attack off.
This will pretty much destroy a standard 6 Gate push, but it won't really be worth it vs. safer play or even something like a 5-6 Gate Blink timing. You're putting enough into these Roaches that your tech is far enough behind the Protoss that it doesn't really matter that much if you delay his third for a while.
Excellent point, 5-6gate blink pushes would be really effective against this kind of timing, although these are speed burrow +1 roaches, so it'd come down to a very micro intensive battle.
The detection you mention isn't a problem however. The highest point of this build isn't to be "sneaky". It's to avoid forcefields and put lots of pressure on your opponent. As much as it crushes 6gate pushes, it should also deal a really good amount of damage - at least enough damage to pay for the second roach warren, which isn't really all that hard to do considering the cost-effectiveness of roaches compared to protoss gateway units.
On April 20 2011 09:35 Xapti wrote:I've started using a similar build (but probably more standard) in ZvP when it appears that they are 3 gating. Trouble is, it's extremely hard to tell, and the build completely relies on no warp gate rushes. My version of the build rushes roach speed or burrow movement though, not both. It's also faster I think (maybe around 8.5 to10 minute mark) because I get gas quite fast for the lair, get less roaches, and don't get ranged attack upgrade. Once I accidently built two warrens, and with it I did a double upgrade and won, I tried doing it again, but it seems to be spending too much money and comming too late for it to be as useful. Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 11:29 Zephirdd wrote:
This is how it works: At about 10:25, All three upgrades will be done and you will have 21 roaches completed, and 9 in production - perhaps more, because I just can't do this build correctly, since I keep missing OL timings -.- I think you mean 4 upgrades, because of ranged attack, right? 10:25 sounds a bit fast, but I can't say it's impossible. I open with 11 OP (for around 18 hatch) which is a bit worse economy, but then again I think it's really useful to completely counter any sort of cheese or hatch blocking. How are you going to hatch first when they probe/pylon block the natural?
Yeah, it's 4 upgrades, thx for pointing that out 
The timing is at 10:25 considering there were no interruptions - no need to waste larva on units, for example - as I've tested on YABOT.
Your version sounds like a less economic version of it, and with less units as well as you mentioned, but hits fairly earlier. Mind posting some replays for comparision?
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i like it, i think the 4 queens are a great anti air and the Protos probably wont attack into that with void rays, and if need be you can always throw down i hydra den which takes almost no time at all to make.
i also think that this build can be used in mroe matchups but im nto sure yet
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On April 20 2011 10:08 NDsOdapOp wrote:
i like it, i think the 4 queens are a great anti air and the Protos probably wont attack into that with void rays, and if need be you can always throw down i hydra den which takes almost no time at all to make.
i also think that this build can be used in mroe matchups but im nto sure yet
I don't think so, Roaches hardly have any time to shine on ZvT and it is very hard to "waste" so much gas on ZvZ instead of building more roaches and take the upgrades over time. Also, there isn't much use for Tunneling Claws on these matchups since there isn't a Force Field-like ability to justify getting them so quickly.
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I generally opt for the spanishiwa build in zvp as well.
I actually stumbled upon this once, by accidentally making 2 roach warrens, as I had one in production, didn't realize it, and then made another, within like 5 game seconds of the other. They then both spawn right as I'm getting air harrassed, and the toss is like lol 2 RWs... you lost, and then my queens hold off the harrass, all the while, I was thinking, he's right, shit...
But so, I'm like, fuck it, let's do this, and tech both of them, all the while 1 armor 1 range was already going (i tweak it slightly such that my evos are ready to upgrade before spanishiwa reccommends them). I then begin to mass roaches meanwhile, and busted in his door right as he was starting to expand, and then flooded in the lings for the gg. I was thinking afterwards that I just was lucky, but Idk, this thread has me thinking:
RWs take forever to build, and they're key to early game zvp, in most cases. However, if you have two, say one near your main and the other at your nat, why not get double upgrades, and know that if one base falls, you can still make roaches, and not have to wait like, another 150 seconds for another RW to build. IDK, may be a slight waste of minerals, but meh, if you use it to wall off your base, and you have an excess of spanishiwa-build minerals (how the hell does anyone keep there minerals low with this? Not even Spanishiwa himself can lol) anyways, why not...
[edit add-in]: And as for the what to do with the excessive gas, do something techy that makes sense, given the circumstances. Infestors are a great way to spend gas, and they complement burrow + tunneling claws roaches quite well. Try working in a nydus. Go spire. Pepper in some hydras. The true fear of the Ice Fisher build is in the early game. If you can survive it, and take your third, you'll be maxed in no time, with possibly even a lead on upgrades and tech. If my games last longer than about 14 minutes, I generally win, unless they're macroing hard too, and in those games its really close, but that's only like 5% of the games beyond the 14 minute point it seems...
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good slice of cheese, forget the contain and expand its a good all in for a best of series
im sure you can make it work into the normal spanishiwa macro game if you really want tho
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On April 20 2011 13:46 darkscream wrote:
good slice of cheese, forget the contain and expand its a good all in for a best of series
im sure you can make it work into the normal spanishiwa macro game if you really want tho
You could make it an all-in, but heck, isn't that true with every kind of timing attack?
But cheese? Nah, it isn't. Cheese would be something that sounds retarded like BL rush or proxy hatch, but this isn't that retarded.
In fact, it is nothing but a very solid timing push.
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No that is absolutely not the definition of cheese. But you are right. It's more of a timing push.
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This + tweaked gas timings (like put up 3 gas then pull drones off 1 after launching the upgrades for constant roach production off 2 base) and actually staying on 2 bases might be a powerfull all-in against a forge FE from protoss for example, on smaller maps or positions.
But I don't see it working if you wish to transition from it.
Edit : You might be able to squeeze in a +1 range upgrade since it is all-in anyways, but +1/+1 like some people said seems a bit overblown.
Edit 2 : After some more thinking, if you use it as an allin this would work better imo with a 14g 14p or 14p 16h, you could cut the third queen used for creep spread instead to pay for the second roach warren. I'll try to find timings I like^^
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On April 20 2011 21:40 NeonFox wrote:
This + tweaked gas timings (like put up 3 gas then pull drones off 1 after launching the upgrades for constant roach production off 2 base) and actually staying on 2 bases might be a powerfull all-in against a forge FE from protoss for example, on smaller maps or positions.
But I don't see it working if you wish to transition from it.
Edit : You might be able to squeeze in a +1 range upgrade since it is all-in anyways, but +1/+1 like some people said seems a bit overblown.
Edit 2 : After some more thinking, if you use it as an allin this would work better imo with a 14g 14p or 14p 16h, you could cut the third queen used for creep spread instead to pay for the second roach warren. I'll try to find timings I like^^
Although it is a powerful allin, I'm trying to keep it as solid as possible. If you cut a bit on the constant roach production - since you'll have a shitload of roaches already to begin with - you can easily squeeze an expansion without trouble. You get a freaking huge map control with this build, so this is not a problem. The four queens are necessary for defense as well, since you are never sure of what would happen - especially in case of stargate play - and also makes transitions easier.
Of course, if you tweak the build enough you can achieve shorter timings, but part of it is to have a solid and powerful economy with it, to reduce the "all-in" feeling it has.
Again, it is NOT an all-in. It can transition into an all-in, but it can also transition into a macro game just fine.
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why use spanishiwas BO? if it hampers the timing push then its worthless, dont create a frankenstein, make the BO streamlined.
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On April 21 2011 07:06 Venomous Drone wrote:
why use spanishiwas BO? if it hampers the timing push then its worthless, dont create a frankenstein, make the BO streamlined.
Spanishiwas BO makes this build much better and far more secure early game. it eliminates the resources wasted on lings and speed while still having a fairly solid defense and keeping your opponent in the dark. The scariest thing to me about playing against spanishiwas build is that it can transition into anything you want faster than the opponent can scout and react in most cases. I feel like its worth it to get a booming economy while giving your opponent no scouting info rather than having your attack hit a minute earlier with a weaker economy back home that got scouted.
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I have written this before, but no one seems to care about it.
Why do you get metabolic boost, when you are going for a huge roach attack? Those 100 mins/gas could easily be more drones/upgrades/roaches or even a part of a nydus network/OL drop. I have never lost a game with this build (high dia) when i get my nydus worm into their base. Simply because they either do not have other detection than cannons, or their army is simply not large enough in a straight fight, because if they already have a robo, you can allmost be 100% sure that they are going for some 2base colossus timing.
The best thing about this build is that it either hits before colossi, or even better, when they've rushed for colossi, which don't do squat to roaches with burrow move. Just move underneath the toss ball, you regen most of the damage, and 1shot the colossi.
Replay provided in an older post on page 1.
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Ive encountered this build several times recently (realizing that the 2 warrens was not a mistake took a while, lol). As far as I can remember, opening air countered it pretty well.
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On April 23 2011 06:09 Emreis wrote:
Ive encountered this build several times recently (realizing that the 2 warrens was not a mistake took a while, lol). As far as I can remember, opening air countered it pretty well.
Well good luck having an observer to see the burrowed roaches 3 shotting your nexus and 1 shotting you gates, while also having enough air to kill the roaches faster than they destroy your base.
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Isn't this really going to hurt your tech if it doesn't result in a massive success. You won't really be able to get infestors/mutalisks at a proper mid game timing if you spend all that gas on roaches and upgrades for them.
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EPT
