EPT[D] Mass Infestors - Dominate ZvP Mid-Game - Page 12
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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Owarida
United States333 Posts
Its not working to well in my ZvPs, and every time it has been tried on me in PvZ I smash it. Problem is the guys you are showing in the replay have no idea how to micro or engage. If you command your death ball properly, and have your colo placed securely in the back with proper engage of zealots before stalkers, and FF on the sides, the lings melt, fungal does nothing, and the only thing you can neural is gateway units. Moving to fungal a colo results in a quite snipe of an infestor by either a well timed colo attack or a few stalkers. Also having 2-4 DTs in the mix qued up to snipe all infestors rock this. Going to be hard to convince me this works at high masters, because for me doing it in ZvP and fighting it in PvZ it has been failing. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
He does not even need storm, just feedback and archon, but since protoss never play reactionnary because they have a lolmao death ball, this might work until they figure it out. Still I was already adding on a bunch of infestor mid game, but never researched NP, just using FG. Now I will try it, seems good. | ||
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
Immortals have 300 hp so its gonna take quiteeee a few fungals to kill them, meanwhile they're doing 20+ damage a pop. You planning on NP my immortals? Let me lift them with my phoenix and make you waste energy. You're gonna run away? Let me lift your infestors and kill them in 9 volleys.. Plenty of obs to go around if you want to go and borrow them. Banelings are absolutely necessary against this composition, but there goes all that gas you were not spending on other gas units :/ I'm sure this works phenomenally well against the tried and boring "death" ball that has colossi and stalkers, but please, your title is so wrong. You are not going to dominate much else with those two units. Do not assume every protoss is going to build what you want them to build. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On April 21 2011 05:00 mamuto wrote: A zealot/immortal/HT/air composition would and does wreck mass infestor. Feedback is effin godly, Storms rip apart both infestors and lings, zealots (especially charge lots) decimate lings. Immortals have 300 hp so its gonna take quiteeee a few fungals to kill them, meanwhile they're doing 20+ damage a pop. You planning on NP my immortals? Let me lift them with my phoenix and make you waste energy. You're gonna run away? Let me lift your infestors and kill them in 9 volleys.. Plenty of obs to go around if you want to go and borrow them. Banelings are absolutely necessary against this composition, but there goes all that gas you were not spending on other gas units :/ I'm sure this works phenomenally well against the tried and boring "death" ball that has colossi and stalkers, but please, your title is so wrong. You are not going to dominate much else with those two units. Do not assume every protoss is going to build what you want them to build. But a Zealot/Immortal/HT/Air combo dies to Roach/hydra/Corruptor  Its not like we have to adapt and change according to what we scout, especially since a good number of the high tech units Toss have take a long time to build and don't work well without support | ||
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
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Snoz
Canada6 Posts
On April 21 2011 05:10 mamuto wrote: That's actually not true, storm the hydras, immortals take care of the roaches. Zealots tanks. Voidrays are better than corruptors, and mop up roach and t3 Dance to waste storms, lings to immortals or roach micro against the zealots (better if they have charge because they'll follow you back), corruptors spit on the VRs and hydras will make quick work of them and the immortals. VR Immo HT is also insanely gas heavy and would take a while to produce. I mean, we can theorize all we want but it comes down to how you micro and react. Obviously if I scout and see this composition I am gonna think of what would be best. If I am wrong I lose, but it is in no way unstoppable. Even the infestor/ling build can work against it if blings are properly placed for zealots, FG hits properly (doesn't it stop skills so storm and feedback could be delayed?) and you reinforce. | ||
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Snoz
Canada6 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On April 21 2011 04:38 Owarida wrote: I found the same thing.Its not working to well in my ZvPs, and every time it has been tried on me in PvZ I smash it. Problem is the guys you are showing in the replay have no idea how to micro or engage. If you command your death ball properly, and have your colo placed securely in the back with proper engage of zealots before stalkers, and FF on the sides, the lings melt, fungal does nothing, and the only thing you can neural is gateway units. Moving to fungal a colo results in a quite snipe of an infestor by either a well timed colo attack or a few stalkers. Also having 2-4 DTs in the mix qued up to snipe all infestors rock this. I went into a unit tester because of it. and did zealot-colo vs infestor- ling equal resource/supply, and infestor-zling always dies, even with adrenal glands and without microing the protoss army at all. tried with protoss both 2-1-0 and zerg 1-2 , and protoss 3-2-0 and zerg 2-3. Obviously colossus-zealot is vulnerable to air, but if zerg might be getting air, protoss can just get a cost-effective anti-air army of units like void rays or stalker. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On April 21 2011 05:28 Snoz wrote: Dance to waste storms, lings to immortals or roach micro against the zealots (better if they have charge because they'll follow you back), corruptors spit on the VRs and hydras will make quick work of them and the immortals. VR Immo HT is also insanely gas heavy and would take a while to produce. Do you play zerg? It's not impossible to win vs a immortal VR HT zealot composition, but it is strong, especially with good micro. Zerg can win if they have an advantage aready such as very high and superior resource count, income, and production. 1. Unless you're on creep, hydras can't dodge storms that well, and the latency in SC2 is terrible for that anyway. Smart-casting of storms puts the nail in the coffin, since when you cast 4 storms, hydras can't move anywhere. 2. Lings won't get to immortals when zealots are still in front — since you said it's a gas heavy build, it just means more zealots for tanking and protecting. Also if there does happen to be a ton of lings, storm will cut that number down very fast. 3. Corruptors loose against Void Rays even when they corrupt, and hydralisks can't kill void rays when they are trying to dodge storm — they have like 4-6 seconds of shooting before the hydralisks die, that's not enough to kill void rays. | ||
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Ohdamn
Germany765 Posts
protoss will just start going for templar and you have the same problem same with spanishiwas BL infestor queen...both infestors and queens just lose instantly against enough templars and you can't even "counter" them like collossi with corruptors.. edit: immortal + high templars was a composition you could see way back in the beta sometimes where nobody even used infestors and it just lost against the colossus.. but now with infestors this composition will get better | ||
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
. I just beat a Master Protoss (not off-race btw) on Metalopolis...Close Positions!!!.... I on the other hand just got into Platinum. All it took was around 5 or 6 infestors. And I just got back into Platinum from being demoted to Gold (when I played my placement match in Season 2, which I won) after having a really tough time against toss. And being so frustrated, since getting back in ive played no games on the Platinum ladder and have been doing custom games trying new stuff out. Very Short Synopsis of the Game + Show Spoiler + After trying to pylon/cannon block me in when i seen he went forge first i noticed something that i guess a lot of players are noticing. Extremely greedy play. He still went ahead and tried to fast expand, so i made a bunch of lings and shut it down. He tried it again after no warpgate tech (I think). All he had was zealots but then out came the void rays. After spreading creep right up to his base unchallenged and with the attempted and failed phoenix/void ray harass, i wondered how much of a ground force he had by poking a ling around his natural. There were two Stargates at the front I saw around 8 or 9 void rays. Im not the greatest player in the world (obviously) and i knew i wouldn't be good enough to hold a third base, but i think i could get it down in the attempt to catch his army off guard and rush his natural. Well... thankfully it work. I expanded to the far Gold and those 10 or so void rays strolled right over my bitching creep (clumped together in a nice big ball with a ribbon attached) and the 8-9 infestors that i had couldn't scuttle fast enough to lay down the best fungals ive ever landed. After a flurry of fungals all but two were left. The biggest grin ive ever had was on my face and after he GG'd, my smile turned into the biggest laugh iv'e had playing this game. (Even though he played really badly) Ive been really having a tough time just playing the ladder, i know my apm far exceeds Platinum, probably well past low Diamond (with no spamming) but my mechanics I think are on par with my rank. And as i said earlier, i don't think i would have been able to hold a third, especially the gold (it wouldnt really matter what expansion i took). But i think i dont really understand the game that much and maybe for a lot of other players. After watching the replay, i think i could have just busted the front and killed him when i shut the expansion down. So it seems wrong that i didnt. Question I guess thats another topic, but can one be aggressive with infestors, there is a lot of talk is about using them when you need to... when they push out, can a zerg initiate a battle when they feel comfortable to instead of holding off what comes at them? | ||
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Navillus
United States1188 Posts
On April 19 2011 10:19 HelloThere wrote: I can't help but feel like against a decent protoss they will shut this attack down in two ways: 1) Much better forcefields before the lings arrive greatly reducing surface area 2) Focusing down the infestor that has the colossi NPed I'm not sure about 2, there were so many infestors that that doesn't seem feasible but I know that by the time I have an army like that I'm not throwing down like 3 force fields I have enough to circle that army a couple times with force fields and he couldve used a large number of force fields to either keep out the lings or keep the infestors back while he killed the lings. I'm not saying this would be easy to do or it would be easy to beat that army, but I think it's definitely possible and these opponents were not at the same point that some other toss players could be by then. | ||
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nymeria
United States161 Posts
On April 20 2011 16:33 AimForTheBushes wrote: My vote is to change the thread title to: " Mass Infestors - Sometimes a good strategy in ZvP" This thread is going the way of most other non-polished, over-hyped strategy threads here. Example: + Show Spoiler + Title: Strategy G, using Units A and B are completely invincible in XvX! OP (Proof): I used units A and B in my gold league, and won 3 straight. Consider XvX now broken! As further proof, here's a replay or two of when one or both of those units in my strategy were effective. (link) Reader : Well, what about in this situation in XvX? I'd just use unit C to counter units A and B Author: Simple - I'd then use some different units than I mentioned in the OP. this continues on for a few pages, and after all the theorycrafting and back-tracking/amending by the author, it hits us all that the original idea of Strategy G isn't the gamebreaker it was hyped to be. In fact, we realize that while the units involved are good in different situations and that, perchance, we might actually be able to adapt in an RTS and actively play vs what your opponent is doing instead of going for the blind build of Strategy G every time you get a certain matchup. Kind of surprised this thread has stayed open for this long. It'd be preferable, and for me, taken more seriously, if the title wasn't as ridiculous as it currently is. There are no strategies that are going to dominate in every instance of a midgame - the game is too fluid and variable for that to happen. If you were to say "Implementing ling/infestor can be an effective strategy vs Protoss", that's fine. Most importantly, from what I've seen in the master/GM leagues, this strategy simply doesn't hold weight on its own. Infestors/lings can be very effective together, given the right situations - saying that it hard-counters the death ball is simply incorrect. :-\ I haven't had to transition away from mass Infestors at all in Masters. I was just suggesting that if people do find Psi Storm to be a hard counter to mass Infestors, they could build a spire, make 9 Mutalisks, and hunt down High Templar. Don't transition away from mass Infestors. Actually, in Starcraft Vanilla, I believe Mutalisks did dominate in every instance of the mid-game. Hence, all the new anti-Mutalisk units in BroodWar (Medics, Valkyries, Corsairs, Devourers). | ||
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Snoz
Canada6 Posts
On April 21 2011 05:42 Xapti wrote: Do you play zerg? It's not impossible to win vs a immortal VR HT zealot composition, but it is strong, especially with good micro. Zerg can win if they have an advantage aready such as very high and superior resource count, income, and production. 1. Unless you're on creep, hydras can't dodge storms that well, and the latency in SC2 is terrible for that anyway. Smart-casting of storms puts the nail in the coffin, since when you cast 4 storms, hydras can't move anywhere. 2. Lings won't get to immortals when zealots are still in front — since you said it's a gas heavy build, it just means more zealots for tanking and protecting. Also if there does happen to be a ton of lings, storm will cut that number down very fast. 3. Corruptors loose against Void Rays even when they corrupt, and hydralisks can't kill void rays when they are trying to dodge storm — they have like 4-6 seconds of shooting before the hydralisks die, that's not enough to kill void rays. I do play Zerg. I realized most of that but I was talking more about pretending to commit so that your lings look like they're going in but pull back. Same as baiting FFs. I mean a lot of players won't fall for it but it is worth doing because you lose a few lings for a potentially huge gain. Agree with creep, I never even thought of hydras being so slow. I am used to people only casting a few poorly placed storms (I don't play often, I am in Plat. Probably under 20 games in 1v1 this season). Lings COULD get there if the point at which you attack is open enough or you swing around like in X'el Naga Caverns. Again, like I said, theorize all we want but it ultimately comes down to a lot of player and situational variables (although yes it is a beastly composition that if each side a-clicked and cast P would easily, EASILY win). I actually don't see a lot of voids a lot so I was thinking along the lines of like 5 and me having 10 - 15ish corruptors, which would probably beat it. Overall I agree with you but again, it'd come down to the specific situations right. I've done it/had it done to me when I played Toss early on. Man I just wanna play now, stupid exams. | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Also I do not think Roach Infestor has as much synergy as you would think imo. The Roach has the lowest dps of any Zerg unit. Something that I do not like when used with Infestor abilities other than Infested Terrans which share upgrades. I like the high damage Zerglings more as it kills quickly. Roaches have durability but lack killing power which does not go as well with Fungal and NP which are short time sensitive abilities. Also Roach Infestor is slower to come out while Ling Infestor is more rapidly prepared. It also does not work as well with my eventual Hive tech plan which calls for upgraded melee from either Ultra or Broodlords. In addition Roach cuts into gas for upgrades. Although I can see Roaches being more forgiving of mistakes. Maybe a combination of both where Roaches lead the charge and Zerglings swoop in after Infestors have done their job. Roaches do not need the damage upgrades in this case. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
Real problem though is 4/5/6 Gate timing pushes with this build maybe that's why pros don't risk it. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On April 20 2011 23:39 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Employing heavy use of Neural Parasite will lead to many lopsided games. You either win big, or lose big, it depends on a slew of factors, primarily how many NP's you land, for how long, and on which units. Micro mistakes with infestors are punished severely and will often lose you the game. This unit composition has a high variance in combat effectiveness. I think the only way to reduce this variance is through practice. I believe this is primarily the reason that pros have shunned Neural Parasite and infestors in general. They want reliability so that they can consistently win games and tournaments, and fear having a huge lead destroyed by a few seconds of bad micro. If your lead is huge, can't you just drop a couple fungals (minimal risk to your infestors - only 1-2 have to expose themselves) and then carpet-bomb the opposing army with Infested Terrans? I feel like Infested Terran falls by the wayside in a lot of discussions of Infestor-heavy play, which confuses me. It seems a lot more stable and reliable than Neural Parasite. | ||
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