There is a way to beat this, chargelots sentry and high templar, just figured it out and tried it in a few ladder games.
Chargelots are hard as HELL to catch with fungal, you still can cast them but its way harder for zerg. Storms will melt lings in 2 seconds. Feedback can elimiate the threat of Fungals easily, and also you can storm moar units ^.^ Sentries do their thing, use them to FF up those infestors so they cannot run from you ^.^
if you can throw in DTs or colosus or some air units and that will help you guys counter this stuff cause it will get way harder for zerg and also force zerg to spend gas on other things than infestors.
good luck zergs, you guys should use moar ultralisks
On April 20 2011 01:26 Ipp wrote: If the Protoss player walks all over your creep and you can queue up the NP, uit makes it easy.
Any Protoss player who has used High Templars before will probably shut this play down. Feed back will ensure you don't get too many fungals/np's off while 4 storms will decimate any ling force.
See HuK v Nestea:
I'd like to see what would have happened if NesTea had waited to engage in the middle where he could have flanked the stalker/ht army instead of charging in from one side.
If I find that Zergling/Infestor alone cannot beat a High Templar backed army, I'm going to add mutas to snipe them, ideally when they're not protected by the stalker ball. I can't believe I didn't think of this before, as it's the standard answer to High Templar in BW.
On April 20 2011 09:45 SaviorSelf wrote: INSTEAD OF TRYING TO PICK IT APART HOW ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE IT BETTER?
if you all did that instead, maybe zerg wouldn't be in such a shitty position?
I've been staring at this for a long time now. Can anyone help me decipher it?
lol.... he means instead of ridiculing and bashing the build, offer constructive suggestions to make it better.... if people did this then zerg as a whole would benefit much more, and be better off
this.
it goes for everything. it's not just zerg that's in a bad position strategy wise, it's protoss too. people post strats to show effectiveness of said build/unit comp. there is no need to 100% theorycraft against every strategy shown on this website.
yes, we all know mass carriers beats almost everything. yes, we all know mass bcs beats almost everything. yes, we all know mass infestors beats almost everything.
BUT, did you know that you're theorycrafting does NOTHING to help said strategy develop and get better/faster/more powerful?
stop saying you know the perfect "counter" to the strategies on here and start trying to make them better. no one cares if your 3 roach + 10 drone all in will kill this strategy, or whatever it is you genius' think is so important that you must explain exactly why this strategy is "shit" or fail to see the potential in the strategy.
every strategy ever (past, present, future) WILL have flaws, thats a given, any hatch first will be easy to put early pressure against, etc, etc. we all know this, so stop talking about it. no one should care about that. people should care about making the strategy more effective. if you have nothing to contribute, then don't post anything at all. seriously. some people have no idea how much time and effort are put into these guides on here and they just keep posting all the flame "LOL U LOSE TO ANY SPEEDLING OPENER" come on guys. don't you want starcraft to get more interesting?
EDIT: OH, and if you don't like the strategy or you think it's shit, DON'T USE IT. just don't post your retarded comments that do nothing for this community. and don't come QQ'ing when you can't beat it either.
well i support your idea to change the thread title to "[D] Mass Infestors - Dominate ZvP Mid-Game because as it was said and proven repeditly in here ling infestor in itself is perfectly useless against proper deathball or deathball with FFs
On April 20 2011 13:52 BlinkGosu wrote: 14. A fungaled colossi cannot be micro'd away.
fungal growth doesn't immobilize collosus/thor/ultra (and the air units, i know)
Uh... double negative? it DOES immobilize. As in, collosus/thor that is fungaled can not move. Ultras (not all massive) have a specific passive ability that they can not be rooted. Sorry if that is what you meant.
On April 20 2011 15:43 Geo.Rion wrote: well i support your idea to change the thread title to "[D] Mass Infestors - Dominate ZvP Mid-Game because as it was said and proven repeditly in here ling infestor in itself is perfectly useless against proper deathball or deathball with FFs
My vote is to change the thread title to: " Mass Infestors - Sometimes a good strategy in ZvP"
This thread is going the way of most other non-polished, over-hyped strategy threads here. Example: + Show Spoiler +
Title: Strategy G, using Units A and B are completely invincible in XvX! OP (Proof): I used units A and B in my gold league, and won 3 straight. Consider XvX now broken! As further proof, here's a replay or two of when one or both of those units in my strategy were effective. (link) Reader : Well, what about in this situation in XvX? I'd just use unit C to counter units A and B Author: Simple - I'd then use some different units than I mentioned in the OP.
this continues on for a few pages, and after all the theorycrafting and back-tracking/amending by the author, it hits us all that the original idea of Strategy G isn't the gamebreaker it was hyped to be. In fact, we realize that while the units involved are good in different situations and that, perchance, we might actually be able to adapt in an RTS and actively play vs what your opponent is doing instead of going for the blind build of Strategy G every time you get a certain matchup.
Kind of surprised this thread has stayed open for this long. It'd be preferable, and for me, taken more seriously, if the title wasn't as ridiculous as it currently is. There are no strategies that are going to dominate in every instance of a midgame - the game is too fluid and variable for that to happen. If you were to say "Implementing ling/infestor can be an effective strategy vs Protoss", that's fine. Most importantly, from what I've seen in the master/GM leagues, this strategy simply doesn't hold weight on its own. Infestors/lings can be very effective together, given the right situations - saying that it hard-counters the death ball is simply incorrect. :-\
I always open with spanishiwa's opener so that I don't have to get roaches to deal with early attacks. I can just go straight to massing infestors with very fast upgrades and hive tech.
I personally like to use fungal, then neural parasite their colossi, use them to crush force fields, then bring them into the center of my army so that my lings can destroy them.
I find that this works best in open areas. I try to use this as map control and try to stay in open areas as I take the whole map. If the protoss tries to move out into the open areas, he will most likely die. I also combine this with constant baneling drops on his mineral line so that I do not just sit there with 200/200 and wait for half an hour for him to mine out and not be able to expand. This makes me feel like a very dirty player.
This is such a pain in the ass especially when after a battle you go for the push but the Zerg is poping nothing but Infestors and you can't make it up the ramp because everytime a fungal wares off two/three more Infestors pop and keep you in place whilst whittling your army down to nothing :/
This + Mass spine crawlers late game gives me head aches <_>
Most importantly, from what I've seen in the master/GM leagues, this strategy simply doesn't hold weight on its own. Infestors/lings can be very effective together, given the right situations - saying that it hard-counters the death ball is simply incorrect. :-\
That was what Double forge was like for the first 3-4 Months, it really took a few good players--namely Tyler-- to actually start turning heads.
From what I've played on the ladder this seems to work quite well, especially on HUGE maps.
I would love to try this build, but I just die before I get to Infestors. The problem arises where if I am constantly pressured I can't populate my bases, as I end up spending minerals on queens, spines and lings. And then there is never enough income to get as far as Infestors. It seems that as vs Terran, there is a window where you are very vulnerable against an attack, before you get to Infestors. Except it for me is easier to deal with terran by just using lings.
I know it is my own problem, I simply don't know how to properly get to your step 1: "1. Safely get to Infestor Tech"
I just wanted to say: This is what an OP should be on Teamliquid. Really nice post.
Just to throw in my 2 cents. I lost my first game playing this build against a P who turtled HARD, came out and killed me with a massive colossus archon void-ray army backed by zealots and immediately after the loss I kicked myself. If I'd morphed my zerglings into banelings (I had enough income to do this several times over) I'd have annihilated him. So consider mass banelings against an ultra-turtle protoss.
I'm a Protoss player, low master league (after reset, before 3k).
And i think Infestors are highly viable. i faced them a few times.
If you play standard InControl style they are ... unfair. Infestor/Ling demolishes Stalker/Sentry and the 2 Colossus you have when you get your 3rd so badly. It feels worse than getting FFed, because you think you can't get anywhere on the map, no Harrass possible, because everytimeyou move out you lose all your sentries and half of your Stalkers die. I really need a whole new gameplan against Ling/Infestor, and still i think i will be the one who is the Terran in BW TvZ.
If you go Cruncher Camping Style, yoou do no damage with your air, ifdefended properly. Then you move out against a 3-or-4-Base Zerg. And what happens? Your unkillable "Deathball" with like 10 VRs, 5 Colossi, rest Stalker/Sentry gets DEMOLISHED by Zergling/Ulralisk/Infestor.
After that game i waslike "wtf? did he have anti-air?"
So i can say. It has to be the right way. Infestors are the future and imo now a must-have against Protoss.
As Protoss you now cannot get a Zerg to T3 anymore. You need timings. Really good timings.And if you miss the first, your next timing will get destroyed by Infestors. Without a way to come back.
On April 20 2011 18:16 Fishermang wrote: I would love to try this build, but I just die before I get to Infestors. The problem arises where if I am constantly pressured I can't populate my bases, as I end up spending minerals on queens, spines and lings. And then there is never enough income to get as far as Infestors. It seems that as vs Terran, there is a window where you are very vulnerable against an attack, before you get to Infestors. Except it for me is easier to deal with terran by just using lings.
I know it is my own problem, I simply don't know how to properly get to your step 1: "1. Safely get to Infestor Tech"
I think you are over thinking it. It's just as easy to get to infestor tech as to hydra or muta and I asume you can get to that... just play your normal early game but when your lair is done build an infestor pit right away. It's not more expensiv on gas than any other lair tech, I would even say its less expensiv because you can pretty easily fit in +1 carapase and attack before lair is done if you go infestors as you only need around 3 at first, one to defend each basse.
IdrA doesn't play terran and I don't think people can quote him on things he said weeks or months ago.
On topic, yes, Infestors are very strong, have great synergy with the zerg army, can stall time and soften those stalkers up which helps tremendously.
Yesterday I've used them to great success winning a 30min long ZvP (everyone should know how hard that is). I'll definitely use them a lot more often now and keep experimenting with them.
On April 20 2011 13:52 BlinkGosu wrote: 14. A fungaled colossi cannot be micro'd away.
fungal growth doesn't immobilize collosus/thor/ultra (and the air units, i know)
actually, it does. it will immobilize EVERYTHING(even air units, that thig was supposed to be nerfed, but they didt do it afterall) except ultras(frenzy passive skill).
Hello all. I have tried this strategy twice in high masters and one time it worked, one time it did not...
Protoss can beat it with his standard play, they just have to focus fire all the infestors ASAP... i know this is a lot but you need to get these parasited colossi back ! Afterwards they will melt the zerling waves.
But this strategy has a lot of potential and I think there is a lot room for improvements and refinements to make it even better
On April 20 2011 14:01 LanTAs wrote: There is a way to beat this, chargelots sentry and high templar, just figured it out and tried it in a few ladder games.
Chargelots are hard as HELL to catch with fungal, you still can cast them but its way harder for zerg. Storms will melt lings in 2 seconds. Feedback can elimiate the threat of Fungals easily, and also you can storm moar units ^.^ Sentries do their thing, use them to FF up those infestors so they cannot run from you ^.^
if you can throw in DTs or colosus or some air units and that will help you guys counter this stuff cause it will get way harder for zerg and also force zerg to spend gas on other things than infestors.
good luck zergs, you guys should use moar ultralisks
There should always a way to beat something. Nobody is saying this is unbeatable but the point is to defeat protoss deathballs not to have an unbeatable strategy. There is no unbeatable strategy because that would make the game insanely imbalanced tbh. Everything is beatable and so is this strategy.
On April 20 2011 15:30 Barrin wrote: Dude I was saying InfestorLing was awesome since the beta! Some people were intrigued but many disregarded it. But I knew. I KNEW IT WAS BALLER. I knew that in time people would figure it out. I was right.
By the way I just throw in some hydras if they try to go air, works like a charm with fungal growth added in.
I also predict Neural Parasite being used more often against terran but also protoss.
good luck zergs, you guys should use moar ultralisks
also this. ultralisks are stronger than people think.
I knew, and posted about it too! Haha, credit to the @OP though for taking the time to really drive the point home by including the video and the replays. I don't think much was written about Neural Parasiting Colossus, certainly not presented so well. I had done unit tests where I Neural Parasited Colossus, and fungaled the deathball, but usually failed to pull it off in real games, but this was before the fungal buff.
The key to infestor/ling working I think is that mass lings often force the Protoss to go into ball formation and lay down a lot of force fields as the lings charge in.... which sets them up perfectly for fungal and NP. Force fields actually can make Neural Parasite far more effective by keeping the enemy away from your infestors!
Definitely takes some micro skill to pull this off, but I think after a little practice most players can pull this off, and certainly pros can.
I think most of us that have theorycrafted our brains out about infestors have predicted that eventually they would start to be used a lot more, to solve many zerg weaknesses. The same thing has happened, or will happen for Queens, Neural Parasite, and Nydus. We are already seeing more top players utilize that stuff that was ignored for a long time. Even baneling drops used to be a rarely seen tactic, but it is now becoming increasingly more common.
Appendix:
Some pretty long posts I have made about infestors:
My guide to Neural Parasite versus Thor, where I discuss the "damage swing" caused by stealing a Thor, the same type of analysis could be applied to Colossus. (spoiler, by stealing a single Thor, it can cause a 1500-2000 swing in health loss/dealt) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144948
EPT
