Hello, SlayerSBekHo here~ I'm Korean who lives in Toronto atm, member of SlayerS and ProS (VestigeProS 동래구프로에쓰 TSL_Rain ST_Squirtle etc). Though I lived in States and Canada for years, my english grammer might be incorrect and unclear, dont go hard on me <33. There are some of my games that casted by Crota
Im writing this guide for those who wanna get better in Starcraft ll.
Before you read this post, I want you to answer following questions Clearly in your mind:
1. Are you playing for fun or playing to be progamers?
2. Do you love Starcraft ll?
3. Do you want to be Good?
If so in questions 3),
You are going to struggle to get better, and at some point of the time, you might feel like qutting starcraft ll, are you ok with that?
From my and my teammates perceptive, (such as TSL_Rain, ST_squirtle, SlayerSCella etc) those real "progamers" all agreed on one and the only fact - starcraft ll requires talents. Especially when it comes to competitive level, undoubtely, you need to have so much talents.
However, that doesnt mean you can never be good. Being grandmaster league, or top 50 NA do requires talents, but being top 500? its not about skill, its about amount of time and thoughts you put in the game. In fact, if bronze player comes to me and says "omg i suck at this game, no talents" I would deny his proposal unless he played 2k games and worked so hard to get better.
There is no easy-cheesy thing in this world. You wanna get better in soccer? you have to pratice! you wanna get better marks in exam? you have to study! you cant get better mark in exam without studying. Also, Do you always feel so good when you play soccer? obviously not, when you miss shot and couldnt get goal, you will get mad!
At some point of the time you will feel like "God damn it im getting tired of this #!@# Im losing so much and i dont think im getting better- besides why do i even have to get stress cuz of game? I m playing game to chill NOT to get stress of it" Im not gonna say that's wrong attitude. If you wanna do that, stay low and just enjoy the game, you have it! You dont have to struggle it if you just wanna enjoy game in your way, but if you wanna get better and enjoy game even more, I will clearly state this, you HAVE to struggle in order to get better.
If you actually watch "good" people, streaming such as LiquidHuk, SeleCT ... them playing ladder, you will notice one thing. Whenever they lose, they watch replays. This doesnt seems so important; however, in truth if you lose game, not think about it and not study WHY you lost the game, you will never ever get better. Yes, I ve seen some of the players that you might think is good, who do not watch the replays when they lose the game, but these people are not be top tier players (most of the cases). Im not stating that any one of those who watch replays that they lost are top players, BUT what I do say is top players watch replays of the game they lost.
Watch Replay, as Day9 said, check the timing, check what kind of mistakes you made. Personally I watch replays twice in a single Game. just watch replays normally and One in my view. When you watch replays with your own view, while knowing what is going on in Game, you will learn mistakes that you made, timing, etc. i dont think watching in your own view is that necessary, so you can omit it.
Now for the games that I won, I personally dont watch replays of the game that I won unless im in bad mood and wanna feel better by watching games that i won.
Another thing you can do is obviously play more games. Now, some people do ask me to coach them, and help them when they are not even master. I really dont suggest you to get coach, myself, I do coach people with 15 dollars per hour, but I really dont think its necessary, its waste of money. Starcraft ll is indeed the Game that requires hell lots of talents when it comes to competitive (competitive as making money out of it) However, Being in mid-master doesnt require talents, if you are not in master, that means either you didnt play any computer games (RTS) before OR you didnt do enough pratices. IF you played more like 1000 Games, watch replays that you lost, study, and watch some games from youtube OR online leagues like GSL or TSL, and still not in master league, then I would love to help you out, but I never seen one. Most of the time you didnt put enough effort and passion on it.
added: my opinion on coaching. Coaching is one of the method that you can learn starcraft ll, i said before that it is waste of money, but i didnt specificially mention why, and for whom. I believe that players who have potential to learn using his/her own money in order to improve? I wouldnt blame if one who played over 1000 games, watched all his replays, watched all GSL still in platium/fdiamond desperate to go to master, and take lessons. BUT if one is player who played 100 games, thinking hes bad, not watching any other tournament matches, not struggling, wish to pay money for coach? I really doubt one will improve with that attitude.
Coaching is definitely one of the method. However, think about it, when you are in school, teacher teach you how to do math problem, you might or might not understand how to solve problems. Either way, you can never get good in math if you dont actually work on problem when you are in home.
When you are watching games (pro-tier replays, gsl, tsl etc), think in this way, Whatever moves player make in Game, think about WHY they did that. For instance, they build supply depot in certain position. Why? Why did they not block entrance and build supply depot over there?
He pulled out all scvs from the Gas, Why? Is he gonna go cheese? expansion? ok he puts it back so its expansion. Why is he moving out? oh his stim is finishing up soon. Probably just gonna give him some pressure. Is he making scvs in production tab? no hes not, he cut scvs! Why? that will allow him to build stronger army. All of these questions are gonna help you with improvement of sc ll skill.
In conclusion, I'm gonna clearly state this:
There are certain ways for you to enjoy starcraft ll. It is your choice to whether
1. Stay as who you are , not improving
2. Try to get Better , struggle.
Whoever picks 1 is
even hellion facepalms
nono ofc not. Please dont get me wrong and says, whoever pick "1" is loser and "2" is winner. No no no, never. Its your ways of enjoying starcraft ll. You can either try to get better, but in doing so you are gonna get stressed. Myself, believe it or not, i wanted to quit starcraft ll, but now here i am, top 50 4k Master Terran.
Thanks for those of you who took your time to read this posts, again my english skill is not perfect , "me no engrish~" so if some grammer mistakes disturbs you take it ez. Ez. and I love you TL <3
SlayerSBaekHo (SlayerSBekho .267)
Quotation from BaekHo. Not everyone who succeed struggled, but those who did succeed definitely struggled and worked hard.
funny and detailed post I liked reading it, I really want to get to masters league, its my goal, however i know i could never be a pro-gamer so i guess that thought is always in the back of my mind which may be holding my skill level back. thaks for the cool post
Great post, and I agree that the problem with most people is that they care too much about losing and don't play enough games. If lower level players just play like 5-10 games a day and watch all their losses they should be masters relatively quickly(low masters is VERY low in skill level compared to mid/high masters).
Actually your thoughts are pretty fine written.But there is one thing
Some people cant just stay under pressure while playing games ,and loosing like 5-10 in a row for some ppl is alot of stress,and mental power.
How do you cope with that,what are your thoughts on that? everyone will tell ,if u get stressed by something,just dont do it.A game that is becoming stressful is not healthy,is it?
Interesting read, but I think coaching is not a waste of money! I am not a progamer, so I just can't focus on the game as much as someone who is a progamer. When I get a coaching lesson, I can learn from someone who does think about Starcraft 2 all day every day. It accelerates the rate of learning,
The problem with low-levels watching their replay tho is knowing what to look for. If you don't understand how perfect execution looks like or what strategies to choose upon scouting something, you don't necessarily see how to improve. Watching replays is only good if you actually know what to look for, be it by watching commentary, streams or the infamous Day9 Daily.
On April 01 2011 02:50 Crying wrote: Actually your thoughts are pretty fine written.But there is one thing
Some people cant just stay under pressure while playing games ,and loosing like 5-10 in a row for some ppl is alot of stress,and mental power.
How do you cope with that,what are your thoughts on that? everyone will tell ,if u get stressed by something,just dont do it.A game that is becoming stressful is not healthy,is it?
I do have experiences in playing under pressures as well; that problem was solved after playing many games in ladder. You are getting pressures in ladder because you are scared of losing. In my opinion you shouldnt be scare to lose, each game you lose, you will learn more than you actually wins. Playing lots of games will make you relax, that's how im relaxed in ladder. playing lots of game gives you confidence and mental power, you get stronger while struggling.
If you are having bad days, like 5-10, its up to you. Personally I had day that I won 9 games and lost 20 in one day. At that time I felt so bad and mad but now think back, I think that helped me, but you should observe yourself while losing those games, and think about why you are losing so much. Are you just having bad day OR are your opponents so good?
Yes,i think the same bout' the struggle->getting better I personally had that problem,but now it goes away pretty fast ,i feel nervous 1st game of the day and then its kinda ok
When you are watching games (pro-tier replays, gsl, tsl etc), think in this way, Whatever moves player make in Game, think about WHY they did that. For instance, they build supply depot in certain position. Why? Why did they not block entrance and build supply depot over there?
He pulled out all scvs from the Gas, Why? Is he gonna go cheese? expansion? ok he puts it back so its expansion. Why is he moving out? oh his stim is finishing up soon. Probably just gonna give him some pressure. Is he making scvs in production tab? no hes not, he cut scvs! Why? that will allow him to build stronger army. All of these questions are gonna help you with improvement of sc ll skill.
SlayerSBaekHo (SlayerSBekho .267)
Great post, thank you. However, is really EVERY thing thought about what pro's do? I sometimes see no logic in the building placement. That the other point i have trouble with, I often state something I dont do, but I dont get why they do it. As a bad player, I probably dont get why they do stuff
Why is there no mention of refinement in this post?
I tear apart the ladder when i ladder because I pick sweet builds Liquid Tyler's Double forge or 3 gate expand into all the fun stuff Zerg hates. PvP is more of a game sense 4 gate into other stuff or cannon rush. Either way I'm getting off topic. The point is I feel you have way more stable time laddering if you just have solid builds that you know so well you can adapt on the fly and when you lose, you know how you should of adapted from watching the replay. Furthermore, you can see what they were actually doing and improve your scouting.
TL;DR: Laddering and improving is easier when you have a refined build...I feel this should be mentioned, Can't just mass ladder.
Great post! The truly hard part is when you look back at a replay over and over and can't find any leaks you can fix. So you try again and again and get a practice partner, and watch some VOD's and do some forum searches, and then keep losing to it. And finally you snap and break the nearest fragile object and yell "damnit 2rax-expand on close maps and 3base protoss death ball takes four times as much skill to stop than execute wtf am I playing this broken game for damnit!"
Then you switch races after ladder reset and have fun again.
On April 01 2011 03:18 Bippzy wrote: Why is there no mention of refinement in this post?
I tear apart the ladder when i ladder because I pick sweet builds Liquid Tyler's Double forge or 3 gate expand into all the fun stuff Zerg hates. PvP is more of a game sense 4 gate into other stuff or cannon rush. Either way I'm getting off topic. The point is I feel you have way more stable time laddering if you just have solid builds that you know so well you can adapt on the fly and when you lose, you know how you should of adapted from watching the replay. Furthermore, you can see what they were actually doing and improve your scouting.
TL;DR: Laddering and improving is easier when you have a refined build...I feel this should be mentioned, Can't just mass ladder.
I didnt specifically mention about refinement because that is just one way to get better. Surely you can do 4 gate every games. Picking one build specifically doing it every games. I seen good people using same strategy over and over in ladder, that does help, indeed that's one of the many ways. Sometimes doing one strategy can stop you from doing other strategies as well. If you are doing one strategy over and over, when you mass up, you cant do other things cuz you have no idea.
But thanks for mentioning it. I agree with that to some extent. If you are not confident in using banshee, for instance, you should use it every games, and at some point of time you will get used to it and know how to use it in best way, but again, that's one of the many ways to learn.
Thanks a lot for this awesome read ! I'm feeling strange right know. I was 3k master in season 1 but I was only able to play the week end, everytime I start laddering Friday, I feel like I have to learn everything again about the game even if I can watch stream or replay during week. I thought a lot that it doesn't worth it to play if I can't progress because of irregular playtime, I thought to stop laddering and stop trying to progress in these conditions, but I just can't. Because of my love for Zerg and this game, because when I watch GSL/GSTL, others tournaments, Day9, Dimaga or Whitera ceremonies ... I just feel great, and I fucking love this game, and I just fucking want be a part of it. Hoping I can see my limits one day after really try to improve.
Thank you for this great read, definitely will help me. In game or in everyday life.(not kidding)
respect. Helped me a lot. Im currently on a losing streak and hate the game atm. Now i gonna watch my replays, watch what went wrong and try not to do these mistakes against.
Thanks a lot man. One of the best posts in the whole strategy forums..
On April 01 2011 03:18 Bippzy wrote: Why is there no mention of refinement in this post?
I tear apart the ladder when i ladder because I pick sweet builds Liquid Tyler's Double forge or 3 gate expand into all the fun stuff Zerg hates. PvP is more of a game sense 4 gate into other stuff or cannon rush. Either way I'm getting off topic. The point is I feel you have way more stable time laddering if you just have solid builds that you know so well you can adapt on the fly and when you lose, you know how you should of adapted from watching the replay. Furthermore, you can see what they were actually doing and improve your scouting.
TL;DR: Laddering and improving is easier when you have a refined build...I feel this should be mentioned, Can't just mass ladder.
Sir, trust me or not, i am one of the player who doesn't focus that much on "refining", i just mass ladder. And after about... 2.5k games i think ? I am at a good level of refinement in my builds, maybe even bigger then most ppl... sadly i lack some micro Just saying, i know play practice games and vs Ai games + theorycraft to refine builds is faster then playing 1 milion games BUT 1 million games can work as well
Inspiring post! I would really appreciate if you could share some thoughts on practice methods, I have always been looking for some guidance, maybe as a sort of list. I guess you could call it a training menu.
how do you go about practicing hardcore. like 8-10 horus a day. i've tried to do that, but i always end up fustrated and tired after 2-3 hours.
Players like RET practice about 6 hours a day and do just fine!!
and also... I personaly recommend training in blocks of 3hrs with 1hr break up to 9hrs max a day... thats what I do and it works for me
If you read about how Pro-gamers train. This is basically what they do. Wake up, breakfast/shower, few hours of games, lunch, 30-60 minute break, few hours of games, dinner, break, games, bed.
Doesn't sound too bad to me, plus they take hours at a time to refine themselves, watch strats, practice certain opener timings, etc. Playing straight ladder games, without introspection, like OP said, doesn't always work. You need to be introspective and hard on yourself in order to improve.
Thank you for the entertaining and informative post. Maybe you can also release a replay pack for lower players to study. Watching replays of pro players is also one method to improve right ^^?
Great read and thank you for writing it. There are a lot of threads that pop up in the SC2 General section regarding some sort of frustration with the game that this thread would be an excellent response to. It really helps to put things in perspective and it's great to hear it coming from someone such as yourself.
I really think get coaching lesson to be better is crap. People like gold or platium or even diamond will pay someone to do all the stuff instead of themself and it won't make them better since they don't try to think by themself to why and how they got trouble to win but they just obey to what someone tell them without really understand timings and micro/macro just playing a lot and watching their own replays.
Basicly, i think it is not a good way to learn. As you said it's like football, if someone is behind you saying "ok to play well you need this and that with the ball" it won't make you a good footballer because you not even trying to learn with your own experiences. It may help a little bit I guess, but it's very limited compare to what it actually costs -.-
On April 01 2011 11:53 SaJa wrote: I really think get coaching lesson to be better is crap. People like gold or platium or even diamond will pay someone to do all the stuff instead of themself and it won't make them better since they don't try to think by themself to why and how they got trouble to win but they just obey to what someone tell them without really understand timings and micro/macro just playing a lot and watching their own replays.
Basicly, i think it is not a good way to learn. As you said it's like football, if someone is behind you saying "ok to play well you need this and that with the ball" it won't make you a good footballer because you not even trying to learn with your own experiences. It may help a little bit I guess, but it's very limited compare to what it actually costs -.-
a good coach will not do that to you. a good coach would ask you and help you figure out your own mistakes and helps you focus on areas where you need to work on.
like a football coach, they can't tell you how to throw the ball, but they can show you the right way to throw the ball, and help you throw it yourself. the coach cannot throw the ball for you.
Struggling to break on through to Masters, borderlining giving up, but this gives me hope!
One thing that is so frustrating is playing after long day at work. Playing tired is god awful. I watch myself not macro, make the dumbest positional mistakes, miss timings.... Its horrible.
Anyone have any tips on how to practice on not letting low energy get to the game? Anyone else come home from work to play sc2 competitively who's figured out how to do it lol...
On April 01 2011 03:18 Bippzy wrote: Why is there no mention of refinement in this post?
I tear apart the ladder when i ladder because I pick sweet builds Liquid Tyler's Double forge or 3 gate expand into all the fun stuff Zerg hates. PvP is more of a game sense 4 gate into other stuff or cannon rush. Either way I'm getting off topic. The point is I feel you have way more stable time laddering if you just have solid builds that you know so well you can adapt on the fly and when you lose, you know how you should of adapted from watching the replay. Furthermore, you can see what they were actually doing and improve your scouting.
TL;DR: Laddering and improving is easier when you have a refined build...I feel this should be mentioned, Can't just mass ladder.
Sir, trust me or not, i am one of the player who doesn't focus that much on "refining", i just mass ladder. And after about... 2.5k games i think ? I am at a good level of refinement in my builds, maybe even bigger then most ppl... sadly i lack some micro Just saying, i know play practice games and vs Ai games + theorycraft to refine builds is faster then playing 1 milion games BUT 1 million games can work as well
I'm different then you, I micro very well naturally but I am almost completely unable to wing macro unless if I've practiced it to some extent. Also, I havent taken the jump yet, so im no where near your game level.
On April 01 2011 12:28 mamuto wrote: Thanks for the post BaekHo!
Struggling to break on through to Masters, borderlining giving up, but this gives me hope!
One thing that is so frustrating is playing after long day at work. Playing tired is god awful. I watch myself not macro, make the dumbest positional mistakes, miss timings.... Its horrible.
Anyone have any tips on how to practice on not letting low energy get to the game? Anyone else come home from work to play sc2 competitively who's figured out how to do it lol...
I suffer from the same, I try and take a short 20-30min minute nap when I get home. It is the perfect amount of time to rest for your body. You wake up with much more energy, do not sleep more then that though. Otherwise you really mess up your circadian rhythm. But yeah, I am not a pro gamer, I am a diamond level protoss.
Working 7:30-4:30 limits the amount of time I can allocate to getting better at SC2. I love SC2 though, I watch like almost all the tourneys and VODs I can get my hands on. It is really a fascinating game, I enjoy learning it and getting better. Yet I also really enjoy being a fan, just watching it purely for its entertainment value.
Thanks Baekho, I was really getting frustrated last night because I lost my 4 games that I get to play in a day very easily... like I hadn't fought back. I've been thinking about them all day, going over what made me lose. I didn't even want to look at the replays, even though I know I should. Your post cheered me up though and now I'm looking forward to getting home to play a few more games! It's nice to know that pros struggle with the same sort of frustration that less talented SC2 players do! =D
On April 01 2011 13:11 Sleeky wrote: Good post, enjoyed reading it. Very motivated to start laddering more and work towards my goal of making it to diamond (I'm in platinum at the moment)
Keep working at it man! I was in plat for 3 months, I got bumped up to diamond on Wednesday (first placement match). I was playing diamond in like 8 out of every ten games before I was bumped up. The key is being consistent vs diamond, winning at least 50% of the games.
a coach is often times not worth the money, but they do help
when you have someone coaching to you, yelling into your ear, it will help you develop a sense of timing much faster, and can help you realize how slow you are or how many mistakes you make and what to keep thinking of during a match
however, a teacher is a whole nother story
a teacher is the kind that needs to be significantly better and in most cases a top player; otherwise the teaching is inefficient or sometimes not very accurate
these are the kinds of people that deserve the $35 an hour, for their knowledge and protips
not saying that $35 for a coach is not worth it; it's just unnecessary
On April 01 2011 02:50 Crying wrote: Actually your thoughts are pretty fine written.But there is one thing
Some people cant just stay under pressure while playing games ,and loosing like 5-10 in a row for some ppl is alot of stress,and mental power.
How do you cope with that,what are your thoughts on that? everyone will tell ,if u get stressed by something,just dont do it.A game that is becoming stressful is not healthy,is it?
I do have experiences in playing under pressures as well; that problem was solved after playing many games in ladder. You are getting pressures in ladder because you are scared of losing. In my opinion you shouldnt be scare to lose, each game you lose, you will learn more than you actually wins. Playing lots of games will make you relax, that's how im relaxed in ladder. playing lots of game gives you confidence and mental power, you get stronger while struggling.
If you are having bad days, like 5-10, its up to you. Personally I had day that I won 9 games and lost 20 in one day. At that time I felt so bad and mad but now think back, I think that helped me, but you should observe yourself while losing those games, and think about why you are losing so much. Are you just having bad day OR are your opponents so good?
Is that REALLY the worst you've had? Lol I've gone like 3 and 25. (coming from a mid masters who is improving very quickly)
Very inspiring post. Also, I believe your English is better than about 1/5 of Americans anyways, so keep it up. However, I do not believe this belongs in the strategy section, does it?
This OP summarizes my existence. I have even uninstalled the game out of frustration only to reinstall it days later, still pissed about a losing streak.
Well, i have read this the second time after losing a lot and i must say this is just that whats happening in my mind. "omfg why should i play this game when i only lose". i watched the reps and thought about my mistakes. I was matched against the same protoss i met in the morning and i saw in the replays from yesterday that he was very greedy in early game. i used that and crushed him with stim timing push. I was so happy =) thanks a lot again.
@Bio0rMech: haha youre 3900 T and say that? :D you must have really talent =)
Thanks man! I went for the longest time not struggling, I was effortlessly doing well in the higher leagues based on my experience in SC1/BW. I'm struggling now, and having a hard time; and this is good! It lets me see my weaknesses and improve.
And I agree; coaching? No, not for the large majority of people. Years of dedicated practice, and genuine commitment is what will improve people the most.
You win many an internet sir. Good read, I shall take it to heart.
I wanna be a progamer, or at least compete in tournies, but I get really demotivated when I play for awhile. This made me realize that's probably a good thing, because I actually care about wanting to improve!
Great read, it really motivates me to ladder and get better, becouse i want to be progamer in future and i think i have skills for it. THX for that amazing post! I also have few qestions: 1. Do u have EU Battle.net account? 2. Your playing with Korean pros and with foreign pros, what are your toughts about skill gap? 3. I didnt played any game competitively before SC2, and i did not played even beta of SC2, so my question is, do u have any tip for "newbie" like me (im low master atm)?
Hi I also have a few questions. I heard that koreans do one build over and over over specific race to became better ,should I do the same? And If yes ,what should I do? I play T ,should I FE every game ,and then get a fast third every single game? Because I think that some 1 base play is not gonna improve my skill a lot.
thanks for your contributions in this post it seems some people then they should be able to play 100 games and make it to the top of the highly competitive starcraft 2 scene.
I thank you to give me more confidence in my training way. I'm working and I've got a family but I would like to improve my skills and you explained very well my feeling when I'm playing. I want to go further, do my best, improve skills and pleasure to play as well!
In fact, when you lose most of the time everything is done at the beginning of the game. I rarely lose when I'm far ahead... I think SC2 is a tricky RTS game... There is so much thing to do and to understand that... needs a lot of experience. Thx for your words, I'm gonna go for a Thousand of 1v1 game FIRST =)
Thanks man! Hoping for more content from you. Maybe some tips/pointers in playing Terran? :p
Anyway, its really great that people like you take their time to post stuff like this. Us noobs appreciate the effort and the thought of of someone like you wanting to share a bit for the community.
meh good for something to show to my friends =D, bad for me as all i took away from it is that i am struggling and stuck and i need to play more games on top of the 1500 i have played lol... 3400 master NA before reset but was stuck there =/ my goals are to win local tournaments, not just take 3rd ,4th and make grandmaster league.
I agree with everything besides how he thinks that all top level SC players have talent. Nobody is born with a talent to be good at SC or anything in general, it's all hard work.
This was really nice to read. Thank you for taking the time out to write this, I agree with pretty much everything you said (especially the bit's about getting frustrated and wanting to quit).
i usually dont write comments but i have to in this case...
for me as a high masters in team games trying to get better in 1v1, your advice wasnt helpfull at all, all you are saying is basicly -> practise!
well ok, fair enough you right about that, but for example you also say you have to watch replays of your losses, and look what you did wrong... well in the first place i dont do that because i dont understand what i should do, i dont know what is going on, the only way i win basicly is by cheesing, eg. trying out a build that got hyped on Liquid, some strong rush, i will practise that in 10-12 cpu games untill i mastered it perfectly then just own ppl in 1v1 with it... but everytime it gets beyond that build and i couldnt beat my opponent, i simply dont know what i should do
the way i learn the game is from imitating other players, and in my believe 95% of ALL good players are only imitating others, the problem i have is, everytime i watch GSL, TSL i see a super nice build, i want to watch the replay and learn from it... i cant learn from VODs and i think im not the only one thinking this.
However all those replays are not available, and EVERYTIME i try to improve and learn from replays i end up not finding any replays that will help me out... and in the end i spend 2-3 hours searching and searching for a replay where i can learn something from it.
I think most of the top players are that good because they getting supported by other top players, they dont have to spend hours searching for replays for a certain tactic... bcs they will get the replay from their teammates etc.. and i think thats the major reason why most of the pro's are that good... they never wouldve made it alone
^^You need to find practice partners and learn how to play standard instead of learning cheese builds if you want to make progress, that or get better at cheesing.
I feel really frustrated about what you said about talent. I was just 4k master terran player in season 1, and since like two months i feel like my strategy/micro/macro doesn't improve like i would. So I'm really scared about the fact that I'm reaching my limit. I'm able to beat some pros but I want to be more regular and of course to be able to compete at highest level.
So can hard training compensate a lack of talent ?
On April 04 2011 20:22 effecto wrote: Ty BaekHo for this analyse.
I feel really frustrated about what you said about talent. I was just 4k master terran player in season 1, and since like two months i feel like my strategy/micro/macro doesn't improve like i would. So I'm really scared about the fact that I'm reaching my limit. I'm able to beat some pros but I want to be more regular and of course to be able to compete at highest level.
So can hard training compensate a lack of talent ?
(sorry for my bad english).
see you sir
Talent is mostly BS.
The best of the best in any field are there because they live and breathe what they do, so they're doing it constantly and working hard at it.
Just came here from the SC2 Efficient learning guide. This is a very nice read, thanks for the post BaekHo. I'm glad to hear that the more ladder games you play the easier it gets in terms of stress at losing. Time to go hop on the ladder.
On April 04 2011 20:22 effecto wrote: Ty BaekHo for this analyse.
I feel really frustrated about what you said about talent. I was just 4k master terran player in season 1, and since like two months i feel like my strategy/micro/macro doesn't improve like i would. So I'm really scared about the fact that I'm reaching my limit. I'm able to beat some pros but I want to be more regular and of course to be able to compete at highest level.
So can hard training compensate a lack of talent ?
(sorry for my bad english).
see you sir
Talent is mostly BS.
The best of the best in any field are there because they live and breathe what they do, so they're doing it constantly and working hard at it.
Natural Talent does exist. Doesn't mean its everything. Some people are naturally good at math or drawing, or starcraft. Doesn't mean someone else can't reach their level. Just some people achieve skill levels at different rates.
Thanks so much BekHo! This is one of the most thorough and helpful posts I have read on how to improve in SC2. I found it so encouraging coming from a player who had struggled to become better and then shared his wisdom with us all. Also I was really impressed by the readability of the article: it's very well laid out!
Haha, I like this post a lot. Thanks for taking the time to write it up. It's good to hear that even players that go pro have had moments of intense frustration where they feel they are sub par. I get this feeling a lot after a bad streak, and its comforting to know its shared at all levels.
Great post! I agree that the correct attitude is needed for something like coaching to be useful. And all the comparisons to school and sports are great. So many useful things here. Thanks for letting us pick your brain so to speak.
what i got from this is if how to EFFECTIVELY watch your own replay.
Its funny to me that i do watch replays but i can't figure out what to make of them. Never observed the timings, not paying attention to how my mechanics are, i even miss drops when watching replays lol.
Highly motivational guide! I have been trying to lower the pressure i feel about laddering lately and reading this guide really took away most of the remaining pressure. Thanks BaekHo for allowing me to use my sparetime to train on ladder instead of thinking about playing, but just slowsurfing the web instead.
I think the title of the thread is somehow missleading. Well I for myself could not take anything usefull out of this thread, because it contains more or less general sense and logic.
"If you practice more and hard you will become good and for some level you need to have a certain amount of talent in addition."
Thats the quintessence of the thread and not something where I gain something out of it because this is general sense. But a nice write up nontheless.
Tasteless brought me here, and it was well worth the read. I agree that coaching can be a waste of money for many players when the answer to their problem is simply "practice more." However, I think it's a waste because the coaching is already out there for free, not because the coaching isn't necessary.
For someone coming in with no RTS background it would be much like the early players of Brood War...with people arguing that you don't need hot-keys to play well and not understanding expansions. For someone in this position, playing 1k games would do far more harm than good: they would be practicing poor habits, and by the time they'd be paying for lessons, they'd have to unlearn all those unhealthy habits. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
Of course, with casters like Day9 providing hours of "coursework" on proper SC play, and replays available from the best players, it's easy to find enough material to learn the "proper" way to play and think about the game. Paying for coaching is silly for most players with all the content available for free, but were that content not available for free, coaching would be essential. Being "good" at SC is primarily about learning how to play SC mechanically, and that is not intuitive information: without some guidance it is too easy for players to spend their practice time poorly.
Thus, while I agree that playing for coaching is usually not necessary, I think some form of coaching definitely is. Watching the GSL, watching the Day9 dailies, and watching good players streams are, in my mind, all forms of coaching and essential to learning what you should be practicing.
Is there any way I can get my nerves down? I just don't have time to play more than a handful of games a week anymore due to graduate school and now when I do play I'm so out of practice that it makes me nervous and that makes me play worse and its like a terrible spiral. Part of the problem is I was high diamond last season ebcause I could play a lot, now I can't play very much anymore and I've been getting raped over and over and over because its placing me against people that I would've been ok against last season.
Sigh. I love this game I jsut don't feel like I live a lifestyle that actually allows me to play it
Nice post BaekHo. I remember seeing you in an obs game with one of my friends in season 1 and I was gold back then. I've dealt with that frustration one major time really.. then decided to analyze my play and try to better myself. I started season 2 in platinum and now I'm a decently ranked diamond.
As time allows I'm aiming to hit masters (at least low) to assure myself that I'm not stupid and put my Korean powers to use
I'ts true though, if you don't want to deal with frustrations in a game, just play this game for fun. This game can be extremely fun too even if you're not playing at a competitive level. There are custom games too
Awesome read , I for myself when i lose and watch my replay it's like i'm watching a football match i get mad when i see what i did wrong ( micro, macro, Bad BO etc... ) and after that i try never to make the same mistakes.
Also in all aspects of the game if you struggle to improve on your game. You also become a better person improving on how you take the critizism and other avenues of improving.
Thanks. I'm one of those people who don't improve so much with time. People I've taught to play (and those they in turn taught) end up being better than I. But this is probably because I don't really commit and maybe I expect things too early and worry too much about stats etc. Anyway, it's nice to hear it's okay to need a lot of practice to go up the ladder, rather than 100 games and you're plat/master or you suck.
Really, good post. It's inspired me and want to play starcraft and learn. I just got back in to and I'm plat and I was losing a lot thinking of different builds but then I watched MLG. Got some builds that are really solid that I saw Nada use and other players use in their match-ups and they've been helping me a lot lately. Now I'm going to play starcraft 2 and try to become better. I think they thing that made me want to quit sc2 before was that it was so hard and that I struggled so much and now I am learning and enjoying it much better than before. :D Thanks for the amazing post.
i have a doubt. Does this mean that i wont be able to get to grand master and play tournaments just because i lack of skill? because thats my objective not only on sc2 but games beyond sc2.
i really dont know if im skilled or not. but from my point of view i am not skilled. I really want to become better i sacrifice myself for becoming better. But what if i just cant to grand master because i dont have that natural way of playing better. would be better to just throw everything out of the window?
Watching a game you won to study why your opponent lost is worthwhile. Your opponent will study the game to find out why they lost so next time they play against you they'll be better prepared. If you study why they lost and see how you could have improved your game then you'll be one step ahead. I've watched games that I've won just to discover that I only got lucky, and had my opponent not made certain mistakes then I would have clearly lost.
On September 05 2011 01:17 moroo wrote: i have a doubt. Does this mean that i wont be able to get to grand master and play tournaments just because i lack of skill? because thats my objective not only on sc2 but games beyond sc2.
i really dont know if im skilled or not. but from my point of view i am not skilled. I really want to become better i sacrifice myself for becoming better. But what if i just cant to grand master because i dont have that natural way of playing better. would be better to just throw everything out of the window?
as most things in life, you need natural talent to play this game.
anyone can probbaly get to the top of GM with the right time and resources and stuff. But to be a really top progamer, and compete with the koreans and the likes of idra, HuK, select and all them you need more then just time and pracice imo
Everyone can get good at anything with training, doesn't matter if it's Math, Rocket Science, Soccer or StarCraft. It's all about learning your mind and body to do the thing you want it to do. Some people will learn slower then others, but it is still possible for ANYONE to get into masters, if they put their mind to it, put in the time and effort. The talent part doesn't start to kick in really untill you start playing against a player that play the same amount as you. See a day only has 24 hours, if you play 12hours and he play 12hours, the talent will separate you from each other. If you are able to play more then a person with talent you can overcome his talent advantage, but because how our bodies work with the need to for food and sleep, and other factors it just isn't doable.
TLDR, anyone can get good at anything. To become the absolute top tier you need talent.
After a weekend of starcraft 2(ing) i played pretty poorly, i had just come off a 1 month break due to IRL stuff and i knew i wasn't in the best play state of mind.
After every loss id rage at myself and just wanna get on with the next game to smash the next noob, although i was the noob getting smashT.. I basically sat the exams without the study and failed.
Reading this post has now changed the way i will go about my game play and losses accordingly.
"Now for the games that I won, I personally dont watch replays of the game that I won unless im in bad mood and wanna feel better by watching games that i won." I watch lots of my winning games, that's why I am no Master league yet :D
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/e9Mgb.jpg)
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sucks having to grow up in America instead of Asian-Toronto, haha. Oh well.
