I am a Bronze League player ranked 11th and for some reason I can never seem to pull off the 3 Rax build, I tried to follow the Liquidpedia build order, but I simply did not have enough resources to effectively produce units, and follow the BO. I know this is a very simple build and that is why it is so frustrating (and embarrassing to be quite honest) that I can't pull it off. I have tried breaking away from the build to see if I could make it work but I just can't produce enough units.
Can anyone please help me out? I know how useful this build can be and I want to add it to the builds I have been doing.
Ok, so I have spent a lot of time on this build, and I think its panning out rather well. The next problem is going to be transitioning, which I have been experimenting with but I believe that will warrant another thread. Please let me know if there are still things I need to tweak. Thanks again to all the people who have taken the time to help me out, TL is by far the friendliest and most helpful community I have ever encountered. Cheers!
EDIT: Added my replays that have been posted throughout the thread for easy navigation!
I am not familiar with with liquipedia says about 3 rax but if you are using the reactor tech lab reactor 3 rax this build is much worse now with the 1.3 patch. Consider going tech lab reactor reactor. If this does not help then post a replay.
On March 29 2011 14:21 bMn30 wrote: I am not familiar with with liquipedia says about 3 rax but if you are using the reactor tech lab reactor 3 rax this build is much worse now with the 1.3 patch. Consider going tech lab reactor reactor. If this does not help then post a replay.
Thats sort of the build I do now, I will typically throw down the barracks, train one marine, throw a Tech-Lab onto the barracks, build a Factory, then another barracks, and usually put a Reactor on it. That worked for a while but I need to be more versatile. I thought I had some replays to properly show what I have been trying but I was mistaken, I will post some soon.
On March 29 2011 14:25 underdawg wrote: if you cannot produce constantly out of those 3 rax, then you aren't making scvs nonstop. there hasn't been a scv nerf
Trust me when I say that nonstop SCV production is not my problem lol. I tend to have an over-saturation problem, I tend to produce way too many. And that is again one of the problems with the way I was doing the build from Liquipedia, the BO did not allow me to run all of my structures efficiently. Replays coming I promise
On March 29 2011 14:21 bMn30 wrote: I am not familiar with with liquipedia says about 3 rax but if you are using the reactor tech lab reactor 3 rax this build is much worse now with the 1.3 patch. Consider going tech lab reactor reactor. If this does not help then post a replay.
Thats sort of the build I do now, I will typically throw down the barracks, train one marine, throw a Tech-Lab onto the barracks, build a Factory, then another barracks, and usually put a Reactor on it. That worked for a while but I need to be more versatile. I thought I had some replays to properly show what I have been trying but I was mistaken, I will post some soon.
if you reallly build a factory in ur 3rax, theres ur problem. otherwise, I actually think its pretty hard to pull of 3 rax perfectly, and this is coming from a masters league player. another reason you may be short of money is maybe you queu up units? also, you only need 1 gas, and I've found after you research stim, you can take 1 scv off gas. If you go 1 tech lab 2 reactor play, you really only need 1 scv on gas (after you have researched stim and built your reactors) also as someone said, don't miss your mules, they are so helpful. YOu dont need to scan as 3 rax doesnt have much to be afraid of.
On March 29 2011 14:21 bMn30 wrote: I am not familiar with with liquipedia says about 3 rax but if you are using the reactor tech lab reactor 3 rax this build is much worse now with the 1.3 patch. Consider going tech lab reactor reactor. If this does not help then post a replay.
Thats sort of the build I do now, I will typically throw down the barracks, train one marine, throw a Tech-Lab onto the barracks, build a Factory, then another barracks, and usually put a Reactor on it. That worked for a while but I need to be more versatile. I thought I had some replays to properly show what I have been trying but I was mistaken, I will post some soon.
if you reallly build a factory in ur 3rax, theres ur problem. otherwise, I actually think its pretty hard to pull of 3 rax perfectly, and this is coming from a masters league player. another reason you may be short of money is maybe you queu up units? also, you only need 1 gas, and I've found after you research stim, you can take 1 scv off gas. If you go 1 tech lab 2 reactor play, you really only need 1 scv on gas.
i think he's saying he's doing that instead of 3 rax now.
I'm a bronze player as well don't be too worried about trying too get the build orders exactly right. you should mainly worry about constant Scv production and if you have some extra minerals you can throw down a rax or supply depot.
i usually get one marine on my first barracks then throw down a tech lad and get stim straight away (because 1.3 patch nerfed it) and attack once it finishes...
it works fine for me, just make sure you make CONSTANT Scv production and you should be just fine
And I'm still in Bronze League and I know that there are still a LOT of mechanical and multitasking issues, granted these aren't the BEST examples either, so please cut me some slack I'm getting there, and thank you for your guys' willingness to help.
On March 29 2011 14:21 bMn30 wrote: I am not familiar with with liquipedia says about 3 rax but if you are using the reactor tech lab reactor 3 rax this build is much worse now with the 1.3 patch. Consider going tech lab reactor reactor. If this does not help then post a replay.
Thats sort of the build I do now, I will typically throw down the barracks, train one marine, throw a Tech-Lab onto the barracks, build a Factory, then another barracks, and usually put a Reactor on it. That worked for a while but I need to be more versatile. I thought I had some replays to properly show what I have been trying but I was mistaken, I will post some soon.
if you reallly build a factory in ur 3rax, theres ur problem. otherwise, I actually think its pretty hard to pull of 3 rax perfectly, and this is coming from a masters league player. another reason you may be short of money is maybe you queu up units? also, you only need 1 gas, and I've found after you research stim, you can take 1 scv off gas. If you go 1 tech lab 2 reactor play, you really only need 1 scv on gas.
i think he's saying he's doing that instead of 3 rax now.
yeah...might be the queing
I don't do much of queing either, thats one thing I tried to get down since my Starcraft BW days, which were atrocious, to say the least.
Well, this may be a no brainer but because stim is delayed zerg will have much more time to prepare. Stuff like preventing overlord scouting and zerglings from poking into your base can go a long way in a rush build. And yes 3 rax is a rush build.
On March 29 2011 15:24 drgonzhere wrote: Well, this may be a no brainer but because stim is delayed zerg will have much more time to prepare. Stuff like preventing overlord scouting and zerglings from poking into your base can go a long way in a rush build. And yes 3 rax is a rush build.
Yeah I'm still working on my upgrade timings as well. I have been trying to go for an earlier Engineering Bay and am trying to go Combat Shield before stim or concussion shell. What your saying makes perfect sense, and I am usually pretty good and denying zerg scouts, but I'm still experimenting with a new build so sometimes I will get too distracted with something else.
Watch Trump's tutorial on the 3 rax build, he explains it in a youtube video (Googling Teamliquid should enable you to find it). Make sure you have 50 or so supply before the 7 min mark, with concussive and stim. Practice the build vs very easy AI 20 times to get it down. (There's small things that make differences--such as 2nd supply depot after 2nd rax etc.)
don't send your scv out to build a depot when you have 100 mins, send your scv to get to your ramp when you have 100 mins (if you're walling off).
you cut a scv to get your rax out. constant scv production, unless you are morphing into orbital
there are big gaps in marine production, and you are floating 300 mins
4 rax (1 TL, 1 reactor), fact, port are not sustainable on one base. you only have money because they were idle for long periods of time
there is a huge gap in scv production ~9 mins
you had 12 idle scvs for about a minute
um...and you won. you were never short on minerals. you only could not make constant units out of facilities because you just didn't. nice replay bro
If you really mean that GJ then thank you. And your right, when stuff starts happening I forget to do stuff, and like you said I had a TON of minerals, and when I move my second CC to expand when I go out for a push, I do sometimes forget to get my SCV's mining right away, which is terrible. I guess its just the beginning of the build that really trips me up, I tend to lose a lot to early rushes trying to do this build. Or I just don't have enough units when I push out and he just steam rolls me. Thanks for pointing out some things, I appreciate it.
On March 29 2011 15:43 underdawg wrote: on scrap, you cut a scv for rax again.
lower depot by refinery, slows down gas slightly
you were supply blocked ~40% of the time which is why you couldn't produce out of rax
uh you won. g.g. bro
Ok. So should I use the depot SCV to make the barracks? I just notice that players tended to send the depot worker to scout, and cut a worker to make the barracks. Guess thats just not the best way to do it.
don't send your scv out to build a depot when you have 100 mins, send your scv to get to your ramp when you have 100 mins (if you're walling off).
you cut a scv to get your rax out. constant scv production, unless you are morphing into orbital
there are big gaps in marine production, and you are floating 300 mins
4 rax (1 TL, 1 reactor), fact, port are not sustainable on one base. you only have money because they were idle for long periods of time
there is a huge gap in scv production ~9 mins
you had 12 idle scvs for about a minute
um...and you won. you were never short on minerals. you only could not make constant units out of facilities because you just didn't. nice replay bro
Oh wait sorry I think I know what your saying now with your opening statement, I think you accidentally repeated yourself and it king of confused me, instead of waiting till I have the 100 minerals, have my worker waiting at the ramp until its time, then throw it down to tighten the timing up. I hope thats what I was supposed to glean from that, if not then please correct me.
They are two different things. 1. Your scv should be ready to make a depot right at 100 mins at 10 supply. If you are not walling off, grab a scv around 90 mins so that you have 100 mins when your scv gets to where you want to build your depot. If you are walling off, you can rally your 9th scv to the choke, you should have 100 mins when it gets there.
2. Do not stop making SCVs. You didn't make a scv after your depot finished, you waited until you had 150 mins to make a rax. Instead, make another scv and then make your rax when you have 150.
On March 29 2011 16:14 underdawg wrote: They are two different things. 1. Your scv should be ready to make a depot right at 100 mins at 10 supply. If you are not walling off, grab a scv around 90 mins so that you have 100 mins when your scv gets to where you want to build your depot. If you are walling off, you can rally your 9th scv to the choke, you should have 100 mins when it gets there.
2. Do not stop making SCVs. You didn't make a scv after your depot finished, you waited until you had 150 mins to make a rax. Instead, make another scv and then make your rax when you have 150.
Awesome thank you very much, you have been most helpful. The reason I usually waited to build an SCV was because I thought it would get me slightly behind in some way but I now understand that it's not big deal, and I will correct that in the future.
On March 29 2011 15:43 underdawg wrote: on scrap, you cut a scv for rax again.
lower depot by refinery, slows down gas slightly
you were supply blocked ~40% of the time which is why you couldn't produce out of rax
uh you won. g.g. bro
Ok. So should I use the depot SCV to make the barracks? I just notice that players tended to send the depot worker to scout, and cut a worker to make the barracks. Guess thats just not the best way to do it.
It's a personal preference which SCV you use to build the barracks. I like to scout with the depot SCV and grab another one to build the barracks.
You don't really have to cut the SCV to build the barracks. The barracks is very slightly delayed, but you get more SCVs.
If you're going to do a standard double depot + barracks wall, you can actually rally your 10th SCV (i.e. at 9/11 food waiting for 10/11 food) to your ramp. On most maps, with the exception of Delta Quadrant (I think it's the only one), the timing is pretty nice. Your SCV will reach the ramp about the same time as you get 100 minerals for the depot.
Either way, more practise will help tons At least you have a build to start practising on, and I do think you'll be promoted soon with at least an idea of a build, with some follow ups as compared to your opponents. Double depot into double rax into not producing from raxes is really .... (Scrap Station)
On March 29 2011 16:14 underdawg wrote: They are two different things. 1. Your scv should be ready to make a depot right at 100 mins at 10 supply. If you are not walling off, grab a scv around 90 mins so that you have 100 mins when your scv gets to where you want to build your depot. If you are walling off, you can rally your 9th scv to the choke, you should have 100 mins when it gets there.
2. Do not stop making SCVs. You didn't make a scv after your depot finished, you waited until you had 150 mins to make a rax. Instead, make another scv and then make your rax when you have 150.
depo after 9th scv then send builder to scout rax at 12 gas 13 rine and orbial soon as rax is done. set 3 guys on gas. second rax. techlab after 1st rine depo at 16 third rax asap reactor on rax 2, start pumping maradurers at rax 1 get stim as soon as techlab finishes (if you do it right, it times out nicely). pump marines on rax 2, techlab on rax 3. at 22ish supply, start building depos consistently get concussive on techlab 2. It *should* be started before stim finishes (especially after stim nerf) but its easy to accedently delay it) at around 35-40ish supply, save energy on cc. attack at 50 food. scan before you attack just to make sure you dont get roflstomped.
after/during the attack, i like to expand and then throw on more raxes and a fac/star (with more gas ofcourse).
On March 29 2011 16:14 underdawg wrote: They are two different things. 1. Your scv should be ready to make a depot right at 100 mins at 10 supply. If you are not walling off, grab a scv around 90 mins so that you have 100 mins when your scv gets to where you want to build your depot. If you are walling off, you can rally your 9th scv to the choke, you should have 100 mins when it gets there.
2. Do not stop making SCVs. You didn't make a scv after your depot finished, you waited until you had 150 mins to make a rax. Instead, make another scv and then make your rax when you have 150.
I know I kind of messed up the timings a little in the beginning when my scout died, but I thought I recovered somewhat effectively.
not quite. notice that you weren't making scvs right before you put down your depot. you clearly have the money to, because you had the money to make a depot. like you "delayed" your rax in order to make scvs nonstop, do the same for your first depot. it's depot WHILE making your 10th scv, not just AFTER 9th scv
here are the replays i uploaded before. just note the opening. i open with 2 rax no gas, right until i put down my first rax, the build is completely standard. i am far from great, but note how i make scvs constantly during the opening. (or would anyway if i could smoothen out exactly when i should throw down my second rax)
^ this opening is pretty cool too, except against protoss for me, if you want to give it a shot. 2 rax no gas FE means that you get two rax right away, and do nothing but make marines and scvs until you have 400 mins, then CC, then usually double gas, a third rax, factory, starport. works better on bigger maps.
If you are 3 raxing and are in high bronze and are having troubles, then you might be facing people who used to be/are Diamond on another account and are used to dealing with these rushes all the time. I used to be a bronze Terran player, and I 3 raxed pretty much every match. If the push fails, don't rally more units, instead, macro up a little, expand and go MMM. With proper macro and decent micro, you will see this message pop up after one of your matches: Congratulations! You have been promoted to [Random Division name here] because of your play.
or something like that. Then you fist pump and learn more than just the 3 rax once you hit silver.
On March 29 2011 14:21 bMn30 wrote: I am not familiar with with liquipedia says about 3 rax but if you are using the reactor tech lab reactor 3 rax this build is much worse now with the 1.3 patch. Consider going tech lab reactor reactor. If this does not help then post a replay.
Thats sort of the build I do now, I will typically throw down the barracks, train one marine, throw a Tech-Lab onto the barracks, build a Factory, then another barracks, and usually put a Reactor on it. That worked for a while but I need to be more versatile. I thought I had some replays to properly show what I have been trying but I was mistaken, I will post some soon.
Sorry, don't have time to watch replays or read whole thread closely, so SIAP.
But 3rax opening you shouldn't be making a factory - its a 3rax, not 3rax1fact
That might help a lot - that is an extra 150/100 + mining time extra you will have to product during the tight part of the build. GL!
If not blocking ramp you can wait til about 3 seconds after you begin to build your 10th scv to pull an scv off the min line. If you do this you have to build very close to your min line / cc or else it'll be late.
To check if you've timed you're depot right look at your mineral count the instant the SCV begins to build the supply depot. If your mineral count hits zero then you did it right. If its 5 or 10 mins its ok, any more than that and its late so plan accordingly. This means that if you're going to block the ramp (which I only do when I'm facing zerg AND plan on doing a tech build rather than a 2 rax or 1 rax expo) you'll have to pull an scv off your mineral lines towards the ramp at about 70 or 80 minerals plus or minus 10 minerals. Final not eon depot timing. Make sure you are building it after you've started the production of your 10th scv.
For the rest of it: follow the video of trump showing the 3 rax. Though stim takes longer now so at the higher levels this build really isn't practical any more (not that it really was practical in diamond / masters).
If you're running low on minerals while constantly producing from 3 rax then you may have mistimed the 2nd or 3rd supply depot. Try to figure out a timing wher you can build your 2nd and 3rd supply depots as late as possible w/ out getting supply blocked at any point and while producing constantly out of all your structures. After your 3rd supply depot finishes just continue building supply depots with that scv non stop.
On March 29 2011 23:07 Fuzzymonkey wrote: my (midlevel gold) 3rax bo -
depo after 9th scv then send builder to scout rax at 12 gas 13 rine and orbial soon as rax is done. set 3 guys on gas. second rax. techlab after 1st rine depo at 16 third rax asap reactor on rax 2, start pumping maradurers at rax 1 get stim as soon as techlab finishes (if you do it right, it times out nicely). pump marines on rax 2, techlab on rax 3. at 22ish supply, start building depos consistently get concussive on techlab 2. It *should* be started before stim finishes (especially after stim nerf) but its easy to accedently delay it) at around 35-40ish supply, save energy on cc. attack at 50 food. scan before you attack just to make sure you dont get roflstomped.
after/during the attack, i like to expand and then throw on more raxes and a fac/star (with more gas ofcourse).
This is what I do, and what I was taught by nice masters Terran players from TL =). I'm silver fwiw but matched up against golds, so I hope to promote soon!
On the new patch, I sometimes wait for conc shells + stim before pushing out v protoss and usually wait for CS and stim before pushing out on Z, mainly trying to snipe the hatch or queen rather than killing them outright. Skip a production cycle to build an expo when you push out and then resume making units (get more rax and fact then starport when your expo is up!).
strategies are not nearly as important in the silver and bronze leagues because almost all of the people in those leagues have poor mechanics. Getting supply blocked, not constantly producing scvs, not continuously producing out of their production buildings, and as a result floating waaaaaayy to many minerals/gas. If you are wondering why this build isn't working, focus on your mechanics. keep cycling through your hotkeys, don't forget to make supply depots, and you will see a marked improvement in your games. Don't worry so much about strategy and work on your mechanics.
On March 30 2011 10:04 envisioN . wrote: strategies are not nearly as important in the silver and bronze leagues because almost all of the people in those leagues have poor mechanics. Getting supply blocked, not constantly producing scvs, not continuously producing out of their production buildings, and as a result floating waaaaaayy to many minerals/gas. If you are wondering why this build isn't working, focus on your mechanics. keep cycling through your hotkeys, don't forget to make supply depots, and you will see a marked improvement in your games. Don't worry so much about strategy and work on your mechanics.
Cheers! and GL HF
Lol I don't get it. Everytime we see someone who is below Masters start a thread asking for help regarding anything, there will be at least one person who feels obligated to make this type of statement.
While it is no doubt true, if you actually read the opener, you'll find that he's not asking about the strategy as much as he is asking about how to pull off and polish the build order. I believe that is him trying to work on his mechanics and polishing up his build orders.
I honestly don't see the need for anyone to make such blanket statements when nowhere in the thread does the opener, in anyway, has discussed about strategy. He/she needs a place to start to work on his mechanics, and that place that he has chosen to build upon is the 3 rax build.
Edit - I'm sure your intentions were good when you started your post, but maybe you could read the opener more carefully before making posts. I guess I'm just sick of reading a statement of this effect popping out in almost every thread asking for help. Sometimes, it's applicable. Not here I think. Sorry for the rant.
The key with 3rax, assuming you are going with the 2 tech/1reactor version of the build is that you always need to use your orbital energy for mules. Even if you only use one scan there will be a period where you won't be able to constantly produce out of your rax (assuming you haven't been supply blocked or made other mistakes)
I've confirmed this with the tool at http://sc2calc.org/unit_production/terran.php. The double maurader / double marine build actually requires just over 100% of the realtime mineral production coming from your (fully saturated) base - this is assuming you are using mules. If you don't use mules then the build actually requires 125% of your realtime mineral production.
On March 29 2011 16:14 underdawg wrote: They are two different things. 1. Your scv should be ready to make a depot right at 100 mins at 10 supply. If you are not walling off, grab a scv around 90 mins so that you have 100 mins when your scv gets to where you want to build your depot. If you are walling off, you can rally your 9th scv to the choke, you should have 100 mins when it gets there.
2. Do not stop making SCVs. You didn't make a scv after your depot finished, you waited until you had 150 mins to make a rax. Instead, make another scv and then make your rax when you have 150.
I know I kind of messed up the timings a little in the beginning when my scout died, but I thought I recovered somewhat effectively.
not quite. notice that you weren't making scvs right before you put down your depot. you clearly have the money to, because you had the money to make a depot. like you "delayed" your rax in order to make scvs nonstop, do the same for your first depot. it's depot WHILE making your 10th scv, not just AFTER 9th scv
here are the replays i uploaded before. just note the opening. i open with 2 rax no gas, right until i put down my first rax, the build is completely standard. i am far from great, but note how i make scvs constantly during the opening. (or would anyway if i could smoothen out exactly when i should throw down my second rax)
^ this opening is pretty cool too, except against protoss for me, if you want to give it a shot. 2 rax no gas FE means that you get two rax right away, and do nothing but make marines and scvs until you have 400 mins, then CC, then usually double gas, a third rax, factory, starport. works better on bigger maps.
I did notice that. The build was slightly bumpy that game. I have since corrected my errors. The build is getting smoother all the time and I have won most of my games I have been playing recently using this build. The biggest challenge for this build which I will possibly abandon in this matchup is TvT, the siege tanks just take too heavy of a toll on the bio ball.
On March 30 2011 10:04 envisioN . wrote: strategies are not nearly as important in the silver and bronze leagues because almost all of the people in those leagues have poor mechanics. Getting supply blocked, not constantly producing scvs, not continuously producing out of their production buildings, and as a result floating waaaaaayy to many minerals/gas. If you are wondering why this build isn't working, focus on your mechanics. keep cycling through your hotkeys, don't forget to make supply depots, and you will see a marked improvement in your games. Don't worry so much about strategy and work on your mechanics.
Cheers! and GL HF
My mechaincs are improving all the time. I don't get supply blocked nearly as often as I used to. In the mid-late game I do notice that I float a lot of minerals. Reducing that number all comes with time and practice, and I'm getting there. I am only in Bronze league after all, so I have much to learn and improve on, which is why I love TL because it is such an invaluable resource with an awesome community. The 3 Rax is only a tactic, a cog in the grand scheme of the strategy machine. My machine is definitely defect stricken, but its getting better.
if you know how to upload a replay we could help so much more, most of the time if your in bronze and you DONT have money then you arent making enough scv`s so you will get a million generic make scv`s comment unless you upload a replay
On March 31 2011 07:30 gogatorsfoster wrote: if you know how to upload a replay we could help so much more, most of the time if your in bronze and you DONT have money then you arent making enough scv`s so you will get a million generic make scv`s comment unless you upload a replay
I have uploaded 2 or 3 replays since the beginning of this post. More will be one the way to show my improvements and critiques if need be. Another shout out to TL!
On March 31 2011 07:30 gogatorsfoster wrote: if you know how to upload a replay we could help so much more, most of the time if your in bronze and you DONT have money then you arent making enough scv`s so you will get a million generic make scv`s comment unless you upload a replay
I have uploaded 2 or 3 replays since the beginning of this post. More will be one the way to show my improvements and critiques if need be. Another shout out to TL!
sorry i was lazy and just checked for it in the op ill look at this when i have the chance, woul be nice if you could edit the op with them in it
EPT
