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Hey TL, first post so be gentle :p
Just played a game on ladder where I, Protoss, played against a Terran.
His build is basically quick concussive shells and marauders followed by a quick ghost academy and ghosts.
I'm having troubles coming up with a unit composition that beats this. I'll attach the replay to give an idea of the build and how it works and timings etc.
I talked to him after the game. He was real cheerful and said that he's lost to quick collosus and a good 4 gate in the past. The problem I have is that the marauders can quickly snipe the collosus if there aren't many and 4gating a Terran is super risky and generally easy to hold off.
I tried Immortal stalker zealot with quick upgrades but the emp greatly reduce the effectiveness of Immortals, and the stalker zealot just die to marauder marine.
I'm just looking for a composition that will work against this effectively.
Here's the replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155372-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
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Hey!
I wasn't able to watch the replay (at work).
Were you able to scout the techlab on the rax? It looks like there was only one marine built.
Rather than combating the unit composition directly, try to side step it. When I play toss and see a very quick techlab on their first rax. I'll drop a stargate and send a voidray over. I try to send my scouting probe back into the opponents right as my core is finishing up. That way I can judge a little bit better what I need to drop. For example, a naked rax and marines could mean banshee so then I would work towards getting an obs out.
Hope that helps a little bit.
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If he's doing that off of one base, then 1 base colli will easily beat that.
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On March 29 2011 07:27 DrBillionaire wrote:Hey TL, first post so be gentle :p Just played a game on ladder where I, Protoss, played against a Terran. His build is basically quick concussive shells and marauders followed by a quick ghost academy and ghosts. I'm having troubles coming up with a unit composition that beats this. I'll attach the replay to give an idea of the build and how it works and timings etc. I talked to him after the game. He was real cheerful and said that he's lost to quick collosus and a good 4 gate in the past. The problem I have is that the marauders can quickly snipe the collosus if there aren't many and 4gating a Terran is super risky and generally easy to hold off. I tried Immortal stalker zealot with quick upgrades but the emp greatly reduce the effectiveness of Immortals, and the stalker zealot just die to marauder marine. I'm just looking for a composition that will work against this effectively. Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155372-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
first off, what league are you? what's your level of skill? how good are your mechanics? and what about your opponent?
honestly until u get to ~ masters most of the time the problem will be on macro. because the macro is bad on both sides the noobish players will usually result to ridiculous strategies that usually wouldn't work in a real game vs decent players. im going to answer this.
so im going to assume he one based this and it is a all-in by terran.
lets do this from 2 gate robo perspective:
your expo is warping in, you send your obs and you see that your opponent has not made a cc at all, but rather has a ghost academy with all rax tech lab...
the result is extremely obvious at this point you know exactly what your opponent is doing.. so how do you counter it? gateway units. gateway units can hold anything from one base terran if u have enough gates. 4-5 should be enough while teching up to colossus. just don't invest too much in sentries, ull need a few though make sure your positioning is good too and u'll be just fine. and once your colossus is out he is pretty much dead. unless ofc u screw up.
from 1 gate expo perspecctive:
u go in with your initial zeal/stalker and u see that he has marauders with concussive, so u should immediately throw down 2 additional gates.
this should be your thought process:
he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now)
he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion.
No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker in 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already)
get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map
oh my! he has all rax with tech labs and ghost academy ! it is obvious what he is doing by now. but because of your superior economy your army is much larger and u didn't get many sentries either since 1 gate expo is very stalker/zealot dependent. so you are in a very good position ! since u have a robo already u can either go tech to colossus while easily holding off his push, or u can just throw down a stargate for voidrays or phoenix. your call man ! either would own this.
so here's how i would deal with it, through 2 gate robo and 1 gate FE, the other builds vs T aren't usually that great. Oh yeah 3 gate stargate push would WRECK this completely. i don't think i have to explain this.
now keep in mind, these strategies only work if your macro is competent, so if it's not work on your mechanics first. good luck.
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Oh yeah btw. if u don't feel comfortable with expanding.... one base tech straight to colossus would own this too Lol just make sure u have enough sentries to FF the ramp
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On March 29 2011 13:47 pandaBee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 07:27 DrBillionaire wrote:Hey TL, first post so be gentle :p Just played a game on ladder where I, Protoss, played against a Terran. His build is basically quick concussive shells and marauders followed by a quick ghost academy and ghosts. I'm having troubles coming up with a unit composition that beats this. I'll attach the replay to give an idea of the build and how it works and timings etc. I talked to him after the game. He was real cheerful and said that he's lost to quick collosus and a good 4 gate in the past. The problem I have is that the marauders can quickly snipe the collosus if there aren't many and 4gating a Terran is super risky and generally easy to hold off. I tried Immortal stalker zealot with quick upgrades but the emp greatly reduce the effectiveness of Immortals, and the stalker zealot just die to marauder marine. I'm just looking for a composition that will work against this effectively. Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155372-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis first off, what league are you? what's your level of skill? how good are your mechanics? and what about your opponent? honestly until u get to ~ masters most of the time the problem will be on macro. because the macro is bad on both sides the noobish players will usually result to ridiculous strategies that usually wouldn't work in a real game vs decent players. im going to answer this. so im going to assume he one based this and it is a all-in by terran. lets do this from 2 gate robo perspective: your expo is warping in, you send your obs and you see that your opponent has not made a cc at all, but rather has a ghost academy with all rax tech lab... the result is extremely obvious at this point you know exactly what your opponent is doing.. so how do you counter it? gateway units. gateway units can hold anything from one base terran if u have enough gates. 4-5 should be enough while teching up to colossus. just don't invest too much in sentries, ull need a few though make sure your positioning is good too and u'll be just fine. and once your colossus is out he is pretty much dead. unless ofc u screw up. from 1 gate expo perspecctive: u go in with your initial zeal/stalker and u see that he has marauders with concussive, so u should immediately throw down 2 additional gates. this should be your thought process: he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now) he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion. No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker in 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already) get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map oh my! he has all rax with tech labs and ghost academy ! it is obvious what he is doing by now. but because of your superior economy your army is much larger and u didn't get many sentries either since 1 gate expo is very stalker/zealot dependent. so you are in a very good position ! since u have a robo already u can either go tech to colossus while easily holding off his push, or u can just throw down a stargate for voidrays or phoenix. your call man ! either would own this. so here's how i would deal with it, through 2 gate robo and 1 gate FE, the other builds vs T aren't usually that great. Oh yeah 3 gate stargate push would WRECK this completely. i don't think i have to explain this. now keep in mind, these strategies only work if your macro is competent, so if it's not work on your mechanics first. good luck.
Well I'm platinum and he was Diamond.
I think my mechanics are decent but as a Platinum player I know there's definitely a lot I can improve on.
As for him, he went 3 rax, 2 with tech lab and 1 with reactor. Got ghost academy at 4:51 and his first ghost was started at 5:48. He pushed around 7:30 with 2 ghosts and a handful of rine rauder. I hadn't expanded yet because I didn't scout him expanding and don't feel comfortable expanding before Terran. After I kill his push I expanded and poked back to see if I could win there and may have been able to but backed off to be cautious.
Pushing back and forth, he gets an expo and we're both on 2 bases. He then masses a metric fuckton of marauders and 3-4 ghosts with emp and pushes. I didn't have collosus as I was slow teching up.
I think the answer may be faster collosus although in his second push he had so many marauders I don't know if I would have had enough to win.
I think I'm just not very comfortable with PvT in general.
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A smarter choice would have been to go stargates instead of robo/colossi vs that.
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The initial push came with only 2 marauders and a bunch of marines. He made some pushes that were more marauder heavy, but for the most part, it was a general bioball with ghosts. Your problem was going too stalker heavy. You would have done a lot better if you had researched charge and gone more zealot heavy. Also, make sure your immortals are always firing and targeting marauders, because immortals have 5 range verse the 6 of a stalker, so if your immortals are behind your stalkers, they won't fire. So push part of your army forward so your immortal can fire and make sure they are shooting down marauders. A tech to colossi or HT's would have been nice too.
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colossus/zealot or zealot/sentry with fast charge+armorups. just have to be careful to have your zealots in the front at all times to block any sort of emp shenanigans, and you should add an obs later if he gets cloak.
And as knot said, you can always sidestep it. Zealot+sentry means that marauders don't get bonus damage on anything, colossi+zealot makes it hard for marauders to snipe colossi past all that swishy plasma. Air also does decently against a marauder-heavy player.
And don't forget to expand expand expand! usually with bio play they're not going to have a large army for most of the time. Keep your army near their base and try to keep them to their natural (or just the main!).
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United States7483 Posts
On March 29 2011 14:16 DrBillionaire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 13:47 pandaBee wrote:On March 29 2011 07:27 DrBillionaire wrote:Hey TL, first post so be gentle :p Just played a game on ladder where I, Protoss, played against a Terran. His build is basically quick concussive shells and marauders followed by a quick ghost academy and ghosts. I'm having troubles coming up with a unit composition that beats this. I'll attach the replay to give an idea of the build and how it works and timings etc. I talked to him after the game. He was real cheerful and said that he's lost to quick collosus and a good 4 gate in the past. The problem I have is that the marauders can quickly snipe the collosus if there aren't many and 4gating a Terran is super risky and generally easy to hold off. I tried Immortal stalker zealot with quick upgrades but the emp greatly reduce the effectiveness of Immortals, and the stalker zealot just die to marauder marine. I'm just looking for a composition that will work against this effectively. Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155372-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis first off, what league are you? what's your level of skill? how good are your mechanics? and what about your opponent? honestly until u get to ~ masters most of the time the problem will be on macro. because the macro is bad on both sides the noobish players will usually result to ridiculous strategies that usually wouldn't work in a real game vs decent players. im going to answer this. so im going to assume he one based this and it is a all-in by terran. lets do this from 2 gate robo perspective: your expo is warping in, you send your obs and you see that your opponent has not made a cc at all, but rather has a ghost academy with all rax tech lab... the result is extremely obvious at this point you know exactly what your opponent is doing.. so how do you counter it? gateway units. gateway units can hold anything from one base terran if u have enough gates. 4-5 should be enough while teching up to colossus. just don't invest too much in sentries, ull need a few though make sure your positioning is good too and u'll be just fine. and once your colossus is out he is pretty much dead. unless ofc u screw up. from 1 gate expo perspecctive: u go in with your initial zeal/stalker and u see that he has marauders with concussive, so u should immediately throw down 2 additional gates. this should be your thought process: he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now) he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion. No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker in 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already) get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map oh my! he has all rax with tech labs and ghost academy ! it is obvious what he is doing by now. but because of your superior economy your army is much larger and u didn't get many sentries either since 1 gate expo is very stalker/zealot dependent. so you are in a very good position ! since u have a robo already u can either go tech to colossus while easily holding off his push, or u can just throw down a stargate for voidrays or phoenix. your call man ! either would own this. so here's how i would deal with it, through 2 gate robo and 1 gate FE, the other builds vs T aren't usually that great. Oh yeah 3 gate stargate push would WRECK this completely. i don't think i have to explain this. now keep in mind, these strategies only work if your macro is competent, so if it's not work on your mechanics first. good luck. Well I'm platinum and he was Diamond. I think my mechanics are decent but as a Platinum player I know there's definitely a lot I can improve on. As for him, he went 3 rax, 2 with tech lab and 1 with reactor. Got ghost academy at 4:51 and his first ghost was started at 5:48. He pushed around 7:30 with 2 ghosts and a handful of rine rauder. I hadn't expanded yet because I didn't scout him expanding and don't feel comfortable expanding before Terran. After I kill his push I expanded and poked back to see if I could win there and may have been able to but backed off to be cautious. Pushing back and forth, he gets an expo and we're both on 2 bases. He then masses a metric fuckton of marauders and 3-4 ghosts with emp and pushes. I didn't have collosus as I was slow teching up. I think the answer may be faster collosus although in his second push he had so many marauders I don't know if I would have had enough to win. I think I'm just not very comfortable with PvT in general.
No offense, but if you're in platinum, your mechanics aren't decent. The best trick to beat this kind of play is just plain better sentry control, and keeping your forces spread out instead of clulmped. Make sure you have vision of attack routes by taking xel-naga towers or keeping a stalker outside his base to see what's coming. If he's got 2 ghosts, you should have WAY more units than he does when he gets to your base, just forcefield his force in half as he moves up the ramp before he gets his EMP's off, and go to town on him. You should crush his initial force, then expand and delay his expo.
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Jeez sentry control against ghost marauder? great idea.... -__-
havent seen the rep but I'd say void rays would be a good unit comp.
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At work atm and can't watch the reply :/
Basiclly if its 1 base all in ghost rush you can get 2-3 fast collosy if you trust your macro ( 1 base yourslef ) or if you are really bad at unit control/macro go for a lot of VR and they will own an army with less then 15-20 rines, VR its kinda risky but you can also get phoneixes and lift some ghosts.
If he is going for the "standard" terran unit comp which is ghost viking mara then counter it with Colo z stalker sentry phoneix or Colo z HT and fewer stalkers and sentrys.
If he overproduces vikings or after you both lost your army after the "bigg battle" you can switch to immortal zealot HT and few stalkers ( maybe DT for harras ).
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Can't watch the replay now, sorry if I totaly miss the topic here.
At my humble mid-high diamond level my best 4gate results are actualy against Terran, 1 gas "allin" 4gates that is.
- Only 50-60% against Protoss (1 zealot + 6 stalkers)
- Maybe 70% against Zerg (5 zealots + 2 stalkers go for the kill if i see mostly lings and warp 4 stalker if i see a fair amount of roaches. There are variants with sentry, to block the ramp or deny circles of your units, but I actualy have better results with Zealots/Stalkers only. Probably more adapted to my style)
- And probably more than 80% against terran (1 zealots + 6 stalkers)
Attacking he's base : If the terran player techs, it's almost a free win, even if he has a bunker, because bunker often means not to much unit and with 1 zealot + 6 stalker can snipe a bunker very fast. Even if it's repaired, you can snipe some scv before your zealot dies, so it's ok. Then back a bit warpin 4 additional zealots and go back to fight.
Defending yours (very rarely happends to me) : it ok to tank with your zealot and warpin new ones. sure marauders can kite then but have a hard time killing them and during this time stalkers have free shots. Stim is not finished if the attack comes that early.
People say 4 gates is very strong, but I think that a lot still underestimate it, especialy against terran.
My other builds against terran (on 1 base) use stargate (voids) with 2/3 gates, very effective against marauders builds, or gate-robo-gate with sentry defense, but I'm not a big fan of the last one because it's very dependant on FF. My opening one base style PVT is more dps oriented than defense oriented, but sure 1 guardian shield or 2 definitely help. It may be wrong but I have decent results this way.
I don't fear marauders as much as I feared it in the past.
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hey
i had a look at the replay and i'll give my opinions on the game.
first things was are probe left after the rax finished - i'd love to keep it in the poking around till a marine starts cahsing it as you often see there next buidling choice and this helps with desision making.
Your robo felt really late to me, if i do this build i usally get the robo as soon as the cyber finishs as you only have 1 gate so if he pushs earrly you have to have 2+ imortals to survive it!
by 6 mins are minreals hit! 500 :O this is way to high for this earrly on! you really needed to drop more gates! your robo went down at 5.00 so could have got anther gate before it or at the same time and you'd have been much better off imo.
So we hold his first push, i'd have liked some more zelots in your mix but thats not the end of the world, you expand after which is great, but then i don't like the A move into his base! if we move to the naturall and sit there and FF his ramp to stop him expanding then i like it alot! but i felt from the size of his push he was hardcore 1 basing all-in! Also notice you start biulding more probes againg - you stopped for a good 3 mins - there was no reason to as you had spare money and you would have been much better off as you could have completly saturated your naturall as it went up!
we hold another push but still haven't selected a higher tech choice, usally i like fast HT and get them out at ~10-11 mins but with this build and his unit comp! just put down another robo and a colosis bay (at around the time you put the forge down - the forge just felt like i don't know what to do so im going to do somthing)
we hold anouther push - we should feel like we're miles ahead now and we finally put down some higher tech! this is just to late tbh at this point are tech should be up and we should be expanding with our money here not teching (16-17min expand for a 3rd is as late as you want it to be)
@19.00 we see his army sitting outside our base, so we clump our units to gether and move into a choke :'( we bascially killed ourself by doing this tbh, if we and just got a premptive achr we would have help again because he couldn't have hit everything with emp, and all of our units would have been attacking - which they weren't as a 2 rows to stakler were just chilling wil the others were attacking (because were fighting in our own choke)
So basics were maro better - you cut probes and didn't expand. Pick a tech choice - just decided before the game if you don't like changing your plans on the fly. Don't fight in a choke - this was just some bad micro but not th biggest problem!
glhf
BMM
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most important and i think no one mentioned....split up ur units!!
and this general good against terran anyways but essential when fight vs emp
unit combo...u need more zealots to tank shots...pure stalker just dies instantly
first immortal was good but then u should tech straight to colossi, since immos get raped by his unit combo
and last...counter attack up a ramp vs emp with pure stalker and/or staying right in front of their base doing nothing is not good (surprise emp/stim)...and cost u the game...u had a big lead...
hope i could help....
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Zealot/Sentry can easily take out Marauder heavy play due to the fact that zealots/sentries are light units and Marauders will be doing 10 damage (9 when shields are gone and -2 more if you throw up guardian shield) assuming no upgrades. The sentries will help to prevent the marauders from kiting you and also provide a very good way to scout (Hallucinated Phoenix), so you should have a very good idea where his army is relative to yours. You can add a few stalkers to the back of this for extra DPS, but you need to focus on zealots and sentries. Also as mentioned before Air Units will definitely force him to build other units (marines/vikings) or face losing because of a lack of AA. As for dealing with the ghosts EMP would be to either spread your units, hallucinate some units and throw them at the Terran before your engagement so he spends EMPs on a fake amount of units (remember with hallucinated phoenixes you should be able to determine where he is on the map).
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Builds that terran do that involve quick ghosts are generally best reacted by protoss with quick collosus.
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United States7483 Posts
You don't need do do a build or strategy around beating this, that's what everyone who is suggesting you do something different is missing. Scout it, spread your units out, forcefield well, and go to town with what should be superior numbers of units. Do whatever you were going to do anyway, a 2 ghost small bio unit ball rush is actually terrible.
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This would get pounded by Zealot Colossus ..
I would offer:
1) 3 gate expo -> double forge / charge
2) Colossus
This should wreck Marauder/Ghost. Without charge you're susceptible to properly EMP-ed sentries, which to be fair can be stopped with some good unit spreading but you're def. much safer with charge.
EDIT: I see that this thread refers to 1 base. I agree with everyone else, go Colossi. Btw he can't afford Marauder/Ghost without heavy marines on one base, which is why i thought you were 2-basing at least when this hit.
That said, I think if you play your cards right, you should be able to hold marauder/ghost with mass chrono'ed upgrades and proper delaying.
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If you couldn't scout him because he walled, then my standby strategy in a PvT vs. walling Terran is 3 gate stargate. I put down a gateway, a stargate, and then 2 more gateways. That way, my void ray can snipe the depots (hopefully supply blocking him) and my stalkers can also see the high ground. Because your opponent went for Marauder Ghost, he won't have very many ghosts because of their cost, so his only anti-air are his ghosts. Marauders haven't received neck surgery allowing them to look upwards and they haven't been trained to lift their arms past their shoulders, so they can't shoot up. Kill off the ghosts, and the marauders are cleaned up by the void rays.
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EPT
