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On March 29 2011 03:46 Validity wrote:
SK terran late game incoming. PDD to deal with ALL of zerg's air and turrets to screw up ultralisk/bling pathing tech switch + mass marine medivac and some tanks.
Thats actually really cool and auto turrets are also ridiculously good against mutas/screwing up pathing + ravens save scans.
Maybe. It depends on if its possible to deal with rapefestors with a bio-centric army long enough that you can do some sort of 3 port raven. You can't get a lot of tanks if you want to invest in your tech ASAP so you'd end up doing some sort of MMM + Hellions.
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nice find!
the problem is the raven is to slow imo
mutas gonna pick him off so easily if he's not guarded by 20 marines and thors.
vessels were at a similiar speed to mutas making it possible to irradiate or flee from them
also they could fly over the map and pick lurkers etc. off
i think a ravenspeed buff would make it more dynamic, and also indirectly buff hsm
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On March 28 2011 17:44 Bommes wrote:
The thing is, vikings are useless if you have a thor/tank/hellion/marine based army and there are no BLs around, while ravens are very useful even in the midgame when you don't expect broodlords at all. And with PDD-support it will be very possible for marines and thors to take down broodlords because their movement and attack priorities will not be messed up..
Yea, this is how I see it as well. Ravens already have utility in a tank push as a PDD can allow me a few extra seconds to get my marines or Thors back into position to cover my tanks if the mutas try and snipe one.
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On March 29 2011 00:36 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 00:26 Euronyme wrote:On March 28 2011 00:59 majestouch wrote:
or you could make vikings, which:
cost less money
don't require a tech lab, thus can be made from a reactor
doesn't need upgs to become exponentially better ie: the corvex reactor or w/e (25energy for ravens)
have more range (9) and effectively can't be killed by the zerg (either you have corruptors which aren't good vs them, or you have mutas which have to be magic boxed assuming they have thors which isn't much of an assumption but more of a definite fact that late in the game (assuming the t doesn't suck)
however,i do agree ravens are underused, PDD is amazing. This is probably the view most people are gonna go with. The differences are as follows: Vikings are useless against every other unit, and making a mass of vikings takes time. The power of having a raven in mid game, and throwing in one or two more in the late game is that you don't have to have a star sence on when the blord tech switch will occur, they don't cost as much supply, so you can do it blindly. They'll still be useful, even if the Z decides to go for something else. In a typical TvZ you will most likely face lings, blings, roaches, infestors, mutas and broodlords, maybe ultras. Vikings are not the most effective unit against most of those, but they are certainly not "useless". I don't see ravens being more effective than vikings against any of those units. I'd rather have a dozen landed vikings than a dozen ravens in most situations. Until they somehow fix the seeker missile, you'll probably only see ravens for pdd timing pushes and detection. Don't forget that those extra ravens you get seriously cut into your tank count.
You didn't read my post. Note that I said 'a raven', not a dozen. One raven can be pretty awesome, and it's got far more utility in the midgame than one and a half tank.
Terran is the race I feel use the least units, and I think it cuts into their ability to play optimally.
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some terran just went bc/raven against my broodlords and mutas, expanded to islands, and then i lost.
it's a pretty strong combo, and he was using PDD to just rape the broodlords and even when i had corruptors out
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I do not understand. I just tested it out in the unit tester, Marines+Raven vs BroodLords. The PDD did shoot at the broodlings but the broodlings still killed my marines. I am missing something?
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On March 29 2011 15:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand. I just tested it out in the unit tester, Marines+Raven vs BroodLords. The PDD did shoot at the broodlings but the broodlings still killed my marines. I am missing something?
In addition to the broodlings,it also does damage.the PDD somewhat nullifies the impact damage of the Broodling,but the broodling still spawns.Just check liquipedia to understand better.
So when the BL launches it's broodlings,it causes 20 damage in addition to the spawned broodlings
EDIT:post below me explains it,ignore this
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On March 29 2011 03:58 DemiAlbedo wrote:
Someone did this to me yesterday. Blows my mind how fast teamliquid information can spread to ladder sometimes, but maybe it was a fluke. The Terran scouted me morphing my greater spire and in turn i scouted him starting to get ravens. Immediately I knew he had read this post, because why else get ravens if you know I'm going broodlords.
I felt the raven was more of an annoyance then anything. The Terran could not push my broodlords with marines because I had banelings sitting behind them so it appeared to boil down to me just waiting for the ravens to run out of energy.
The Terran had vikings, but he was not able to get a substantial amount to cause problems for me. Well the PDD was delaying my push I knew immediately "You invested in Ravens instead of vikings. . .overseer time". I literally crippled viking production because I didn't need more broods because PDD was stalling me, don't need more corrupter's because he invested the gas into Ravens and the few corrupters I had could easily take his few vikings. Didn't need more blings because his marines couldn't push me (at that particular moment). So I decided to just mass overseer after watching mr.bitters training with Spanishiwa and just stalled the viking production.
By time everything was said and done I won, but it was a very interesting match up. I think if the Terran had invested in the Ravens earlier in the game and when he saw me morphing the greater spire made viking instead I would have been in trouble.
You analysed it correctly, he used the raven wrong. Its especially not meant for marines running to kill the Broods or to cut into viking production.
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On March 29 2011 15:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand. I just tested it out in the unit tester, Marines+Raven vs BroodLords. The PDD did shoot at the broodlings but the broodlings still killed my marines. I am missing something?
Like i said in the op: The Broodling gets killed but the attack still does 20 damage.
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I suppose the main point of the op is for terrans to get ravens for other purposes than just detection.
Personally I belive we will see ravens(and also ghosts) play a bigger role in the future when we understand the game better. (being a staple unit, instead of a cool unit).
I dont see ravens replacing vikings, but with a few ravens (multipurpose) you dont need that many vikings (somewhat singlepurpose). Meaning you can still kill the same army, but you are not completely screwed against transitions.
In either case, it is still a very nice find :D
edit: I highly doubt that the initial "counter" to mutas in BW were science vessels, maybe we will see a similar path for ravens?
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is there any evidence to show this isn't a bug? I only ask because i could see the PDD stopping the broodlords initial attack, but I dont see how it is supposed to kill a broodling? the broodling spawn isn't really a projectile attack. Does a PDD also kill the broodlings spawned when a zerg building is killed?
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Most likely just a bug that popped up in the last patch.
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On March 29 2011 17:20 Nairi wrote:edit: I highly doubt that the initial "counter" to mutas in BW were science vessels, maybe we will see a similar path for ravens?
Well, in theory, seeker missile is a very scary counter to mutas - 2 missiles can easily annihilate a large muta ball. However, due to the mechanic of the missile, the zerg player can quite easily avoid that - mutas are way faster than the missile.
Now add that seeker missile needs to be researched, costs 125 energy (why they did that is beyond me) and has a very small range. Also, since the missile does friendly fire, there is the potential danger that the zerg player identifies the targeted muta and flies it into a group of marines or so, killing a lot of your own units.
I'd really love to use ravens more, i really do. I just don't see how. Just think about it - out of all the abilites in the game, there are only 3 that cost more than 75 energy - and 2 of those are raven abilities (pdd - 100, seeker missile - 125). And on top of that, the raven is also the most expensive caster in the game.
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And we thought we know so much about the game :D Even almost after 1 year stuff surfaces up 
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On March 29 2011 02:48 sUxiii wrote:
Well, I don't really know what are blizzard thoughts behind it -.- if PDD can counter broodlings, why not testing it with carriers, which involve, in my opinion, the same mechanic ?
Oh thats just great as if marines didn't annihilate carriers already rofl.
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This doesn't make any sense. How are Broodlings considered projectiles? Ugh...
I'm not a fan of using Ultras in TvZ unless Terran goes Heavy mech.
Crap.
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Wait, it took us this long to figure out that PDDs block mid-air broodlings? o_O Maybe late game TvZ won't be so bad anymore once it's not on the low anymore, as brood lords are usually the Terran killer in the lategame.
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Wow, never knew that. I wonder if we see some change in play on the top levels after this thread.
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EPT
