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----IMPORTANT UPDATE----
Because of a stealth change in the latest patch (1.3.3) this will NOT longer work !!!!
----IMPORTANT UPDATE----
Original Post:
In specifics i am talking about the Point Defense Drone.
I am opening this thread because most players are unware of the PPD not only blocking Muta and Corrupter attacks, it also destroys Broodlings. It is not even mentioned in the Liquipedia!
The Broodlord
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/f/fa/Brood_Lord.gif)
This mighty creature is the fear of every terran and indeed it is a powerful unit. It not only has a 20dmg attack with range 9.5, it also spawns Broodlings which can attack on their own. On the first attack a Broodlord spawns 2 Broodlings, then one after the other.
This is especially fearsome for a terrans with Siege Tanks because they will automatically target the Broodlings and so the terran will damage his own units. Also movement of units (e.g. Thor) gets slowed down. If the terran unsieges the zerg will attack with the rest of his units easily rolling over the terran army.
The Raven
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/archive/7/7b/20110206201433%21Raven.gif)
Allthough Ravens are powerful spell casters they are used most of the time solely for detection purposes against burrowed banelings, some terran players even don't build them at all.
Point Defense Drone
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/archive/7/78/20110206201502%21Point_Defence_Drone.gif)
The PDD is immobile and cannot attack, but will negate specific enemy projectiles near itself. Used against Broodlords it will block 20 Broodlings from spawning. The Broodlord still deals 20dmg but the units can walk freely and won't be focused by tanks, so the tanks can remain sieged.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/6rJhV.png)
Some Data:
1 PDD blocks 20 Broodlings.
1 PDD block Broodlings from 1 Broodlord ~ 1 Ingame Minute
2 PDDs block Broodlings from 6 Broodlords ~ 20 Ingame Seconds
4 PDDs block Broodlings from 6 Broodlords ~ 40 Ingame Seconds
4 PDDs block Broodlings from 10 Broodlords ~ 20 Ingame Seconds
How to use it:
Many highlevel Terrans are already incorporating the Raven into their play mainly because of the devastating Baneling bombs. So instead of getting 1 Raven for detection purposes i recommend building 2-3 Ravens. Each Raven can build 2 PDDs when they have full energy. Even if the zerg doesn't get any Broodlords the Raven still remains useful as harrasment unit (AutoTurret) and damage dealer (Seeker Missile).
This will most likely not revolutionize the whole ZvT Metagame, but on higher levels some battles can be turned into the Terrans favor, deciding whole games. Especially the Thor with his range 10 air attack can easily battle the Broodlords from the distance without taking too much damage.
Edit: Of course vikings are (and will still remain) the main answer to Broodlords. But the Raven (if built beforehand) can help you out immensely.
Tip: You should always throw down at least 2 PDDs because the first attack from a Broodlord will spawn 2 Broodlings
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Nice find :D i didnt even know this 
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I didn't even know pdd worked against the broodlord. -_-
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Wow...you learn something new everyday. How did I not know that. In fact, I bet most of the people that will post do not know about this lol.
EDIT: How do we know its not because of some bug in the patch? Or are you sure this worked before patch 1.3?
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lol now all u need is a couple ravens with about 4 vikings to fight broodlords in a battle
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This worked for a long time. It has nothing to do with Patch 1.3
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Wow, I had no idea this worked. I used to add ravens into my army for mutas, and when blords came out it didn't even occur to me that PDD would do anything O_o. Next time I'm close to max and BLs come out I will just add in some Ravens instead of trying to make a bijillion zillion vikings.
TY for this!
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I think in general Raven is underused against Zerg. Pdd block muta fire and missile is actully very good against mutas, taking back som map control. Only thing thats bad is they are easily caught by the infestor, and ofc there high gas price which means less tanks.
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really nice find, can't wait to see if people start incorporating it into their play
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Hmm, I had no idea that PDD worked on Broodlords either. This is an awesome find.
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or you could make vikings, which:
cost less money
don't require a tech lab, thus can be made from a reactor
doesn't need upgs to become exponentially better ie: the corvex reactor or w/e (25energy for ravens)
have more range (9) and effectively can't be killed by the zerg (either you have corruptors which aren't good vs them, or you have mutas which have to be magic boxed assuming they have thors which isn't much of an assumption but more of a definite fact that late in the game (assuming the t doesn't suck)
however,i do agree ravens are underused, PDD is amazing.
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It seems like PDD might be good to keep in mind, but I have a feeling if I was facing broodlings and I had to start building units to respond, I'd probably go for vikings before ravens, esp. since lategame T is probably going to have reactor-starports.
More helpful maybe because it just indicates another potential lategame use for ravens. Nice find.
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Cool. :D
i hate ravens tho... I usually prefer reactors on my ports to pump out medivacs etc. But cool, nonetheless.
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Holy crap, really? :/ had no idea. That being said, 200 gas is pretty expensive, I'm just not sure where to fit getting them(esp since I need to wait 45-90sec until PDD is ready), where I need to keep my tank count high, get medivacs and then finally vikings to take care of the blords.
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I don't know if I like this. This allows the terran to run up to the broodlords with just marines and snipe them. And blocking ground movement is kinda what makes the BL good.
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I also mentioned in my op that you should build the ravens before the zerg is getting Broodlords because as an immidate response vikings are surely better than the Raven. It is just not that devastating if you are suddenly faced with Broodlords and you have no or only a few vikings.
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Wow, my guess is that the majority of pros didn't even know this.
so like, broodlings just die when they walk in range or something? That's just unbelievably powerful against brood lords.
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nice find. Ravens would be viable when/if seeker missile speed is buffed
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Oh great.. more stuff for Terrans to abuse against the only decent Zerg's lategame unit that can be easily countered by Vikings.
User was warned for this post
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and for the comparison with viking's.
Viking's do kill the Broodlords, but they don't stop your own units taking damage, siege tanks will splash their own, siege tanks will shoot onto your own marines, etc.
The PDD actually gives you time to stay sieged (instead of unsieging and letting the blings roll in), and actually take down the BL's before you have to reposition.
Situational, but could be very usefull in those cases.
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anyone feel like this belongs in strategy? nice find OP, I certainly wasn't aware.
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cool find dude, didnt even know this and im like playing top europe lol really going to start using this. The need to not unsiege for like 20-30 ingame secs is huge bc marine/viking/thor dont take that long to kill the broods.
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Whoa I didn't notice this.
Also, couldn't HSM be good against BL's? They can't dodge it/spread out that quickly (they usually get pretty clumped)
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Woah, this is really useful information for me. I always get to late game with zerg and usually die as soon as I have to unsiege my tanks because of Broodlords and lose half my marines to the banelings that come in shortly after. I can't believe I never thought about this. -.-
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On March 28 2011 01:01 Slunk wrote:
I don't know if I like this. This allows the terran to run up to the broodlords with just marines and snipe them. And blocking ground movement is kinda what makes the BL good.
You're right. This would allow terran to snipe brood lords with marines only.
But you forget that Brood lord vs marine + Raven will never be the case (or at least pretty rare).
There will always be roaches/lings/blings/mutas or whatever.
The only thing I am worried about is that I need to build mutas/hydras/corrupters(more likely) in my unit composition to snipe the pdd before they nullify the brood lord attacks in battle.
But indeed interesting that pdds block brood lord attacks. Never noticed/seen it..
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On March 28 2011 00:58 TehForce wrote:
This worked for a long time. It has nothing to do with Patch 1.3
Read his topic again, he never once mentions Patch 1.3 or anything of the like.
It is something that simply wasent known by most people he is bringing a light to
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I play toss....but had no idea that PDD could do that to broodlings
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nice find but times are bit irrelevant because most of time u wont have only broodlords
doesnt stop the initial hit tho, but awesome for terrans with tanks as it stops siege tanks doing splash dmg
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On March 28 2011 01:09 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 00:58 TehForce wrote:
This worked for a long time. It has nothing to do with Patch 1.3 Read his topic again, he never once mentions Patch 1.3 or anything of the like. It is something that simply wasent known by most people he is bringing a light to You know the person you quote is the topic starter right?
He was just replying to someone who asks if this was related to Patch 1.3, a bug.
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Wait, PDD intercept broodlings ?
LoL, didn't even know this, and i play since beta.
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Does the first shot require 20 energy to stop btw?
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wow. didnt know the pdd could do that. nice find, dude :D
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good thread. moved to strat
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On March 28 2011 01:09 monkh wrote:
nice find but times are bit irrelevant because most of time u wont have only broodlords
In most of the engagements i see the zerg is attacking first only with Broodlords and sends in the rest of his army when the tanks unsiege. Thats why it is relevant.
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If you can get 3 base pretty quickyl you should have plenty of gas to do rine/tank/thor/medivac/Raven plus upgrades. Or if your on two base you could go for a single factory, not sure how well that would work tho. Seeker Missle is actully pretty badass vs muta/ling/bling the problem is alot of people do tho is try to use it on the mutas who are way to fast. Seeker missle is a great way to snipe blings.
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Zerg normally send in broods first to force unsieging and to bust the front. Man PDD's completely stop that type of play and allow vikings to get shots off while keeping siege tanks sieged.
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Interesting. I will have to try this in my late game TvZs.
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On March 28 2011 01:07 1Eris1 wrote:
Whoa I didn't notice this.
Also, couldn't HSM be good against BL's? They can't dodge it/spread out that quickly (they usually get pretty clumped)
I would always prefer (now with the additional intel on pdds) pdd > hsm.
When I play as zerg vs terran thors, which are horrible against brood lords can rape them because of the fact that their air attack do splash damage. And if your brood lords are stacked while 3 thors attack them.. well you know what I want to illustrate here.
Normally you would spread them so no splash damage can be dealt. And hsm costs afaik 150 mana so you could not cast an additional pdd without the energy upgrade (hope I am not mistaken that the energy upgrade gives additional +50 energy to the max pool).
But if you see large stacked mutas groups + brood lords + something of 46542 units that pretend to be one, then go for it and enjoy your achievement :D
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Very nice find and post +1
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Seems very inefficient to me. I'd rather not spend 100 minerals, 200 gas, and 60 seconds of build time on a unit that can only deny broodlings for 20 seconds. Not to mention, they'll be essentially useless in the inevitable transition to ultras. You mention harassing with auto-turrets, but flying around with a couple ravens is just about the quickest possible way to lose hundreds of gas to easily massable mutalisks.
Also, thors are fairly awful against broodlords, even if they aren't getting broodlinged to death. Their attack is just too slow and broodlords don't suffer from clumping like mutas do.
To me, the money and time is better spent building dual vikings from a reactor'ed starport.
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Since they also work against Corruptors, there's no reasonable way for the Zerg to take this down in a standard TvZ lategame battle. Anything else gets hit by tank fire.
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Could be, rather than getting vikings just a few Ravens could do it... Very interesting. :D
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+1 This is AMAZING if it works - will test it more extensively in unit tester. Almost anything is better than making vikings. The durable materials will finally have some real viability - 6 minute PDDs is lolz.
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Ravens obviously will not substitute for vikings, which actually kill broodlords, but ravens certainly won't allow zerg to spawn tens of broodlings in your tank line. Broodlords will not be able to force you to unsiege all your tanks if you can squeeze in one or two ravens.
edit: broodlord no longer a "trench breaking" unit vs terran?
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On March 28 2011 01:15 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Seems very inefficient to me. I'd rather not spend 100 minerals, 200 gas, and 60 seconds of build time on a unit that can only deny broodlings for 20 seconds. Not to mention, they'll be essentially useless in the inevitable transition to ultras. You mention harassing with auto-turrets, but flying around with a couple ravens is just about the quickest possible way to lose hundreds of gas to easily massable mutalisks.
Also, thors are fairly awful against broodlords, even if they aren't getting broodlinged to death. Their attack is just too slow and broodlords don't suffer from clumping like mutas do.
To me, the money and time is better spent building dual vikings from a reactor'ed starport.
Dual reactor starport is the faster way to lose to ultas, Pop out 15 vikings just in time, to kill 6 BL's and watch your army get rollled by ultas.
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Ghosts with snipe are amazing against brood lords
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Pdd's block broodlings wow didnt know that :o
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A raven can store up energy, and durable materials will provide you with an almost endless supply of point defense drones. PDD with durable materials lasts 360 seconds. In that time, you will be able to regenerate 200 energy on your raven - meaning a single raven would be able to keep up 2 PDD persistently's for the ENTIRE game.
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Actually now that I think about it, you wouldn't even need vikings with this. Tank/marine+3-4 ravens, toss down PDDs, stim and run the marines up and snipe the BLs. Marines are actually really good against BL's, they just have trouble when theres a lot because of the broodlings
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occasionally scout / scan his spire... greater spire - make vikings.
ravens are really good if you have spare gas to use, but even if you use PDD you still need vikings to kill them...
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What a fantastic find! The Tanks can remain sieged while the Thors(with superior upgrades and scv repair) fight the Broodlords! No more Vikings spam and Ultra switch to auto win! Mech just became a lot stronger vs Zerg. Yey! 
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On March 28 2011 01:30 1Eris1 wrote:
Actually now that I think about it, you wouldn't even need vikings with this. Tank/marine+3-4 ravens, toss down PDDs, stim and run the marines up and snipe the BLs. Marines are actually really good against BL's, they just have trouble when theres a lot because of the broodlings
the zerg doesn't have a ground army? :D
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On March 28 2011 01:33 abominable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 01:30 1Eris1 wrote:
Actually now that I think about it, you wouldn't even need vikings with this. Tank/marine+3-4 ravens, toss down PDDs, stim and run the marines up and snipe the BLs. Marines are actually really good against BL's, they just have trouble when theres a lot because of the broodlings the zerg doesn't have a ground army? :D
Notice the tank part 
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Haha I didn't know this either. I clicked on the thread expecting to hear someone suggesting to HSM the broodlords. Learn something new every day.
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i wanna see a vid of this
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I love this kind of news, really shows people "hey, we DON'T know everything yet!" since some people seem to have fallen into some sense of "well the game is figured out, that's why we have standard plays duhh" which is completely false.
We still know next to nothing about this game.
Wonderful find good Mr, OP.
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LOL i see what you did there OP.
spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +april fools gag, it doesnt work
edit: my bad it does work
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On March 28 2011 01:50 abominable wrote:LOL i see what you did there OP. spoiler: + Show Spoiler +april fools gag, it doesnt work
yes it does
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On March 28 2011 01:50 abominable wrote:LOL i see what you did there OP. spoiler: + Show Spoiler +april fools gag, it doesnt work
This actually works. I just tested it.
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and what about the roaches/hydras below the broods? all in all if almost every unit in the army consumes pdd's energy you have a very limited uptime
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On March 28 2011 01:59 Prae wrote:
and what about the roaches/hydras below the broods? all in all if every unit in the army consumes pdd's energy you have a very limited uptime
Roaches don't use up PDD's energy, and hydras are just a joke in TvZ
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On March 28 2011 01:59 Prae wrote:
and what about the roaches/hydras below the broods? all in all if almost every unit in the army consumes pdd's energy you have a very limited uptime
Im pretty sure that roach/hydra is the least of any Terrans worrys, that is the easiest army composition to counter from Z. Tanks destroy both units quickly, and effciently.
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I have decided that this thread + Griffiths hellion thor vs BL trick should have a child. You guys should add links to each others thread in the op as they are both new ideas at combating BL's.
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it's buggy.
PDD shoots broodlings fired at units but not broodlings fired at buildings.
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Great find. I feel like ravens are pretty underused as is, despite their ability to deny creep.
That said, I can't imagine it being intentional. Stopping the broodling but not the direct damage portion of a blords attack just seems like broodlings are unintentionally being classified as an "enemy missile."
We'll see if Bliz is happy with the mechanics next patch I guess, way to spoil it
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What the fuck...
This is like.. so simple, yet hardly used.
How did anyone (myself included) not know this?
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On March 28 2011 02:06 abominable wrote:
it's buggy.
PDD shoots broodlings fired at units but not broodlings fired at buildings.
hmm, you're right. also noticed broodlords only fire 1 broodling at a time after the first volley.
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Wow that's a good find, ravens are a good tvz late game unit but you have to get a few of them and you have to keep them alive (+1 ship armor though a hefty investment, isn't too bad for what it will do)
Vs Mutas, I think unless you have a ton of energy stored up and a few ravens, I think seeker missle is the best use of energy vs those buggers, it forces them to keep moving, as good as pdd is, it will almost be used up instantly, even if it did just block 90 damage, it's also stationary, if a zerg player decides to disengage, you are kind of out of luck.
Vs Corrupters, not really sure why zerg would have them unless you flashed a fusion core or a battlecruiser, they kind of fire too slow and have kind of poor range if they're going to be going to take out medivacs, I thnk zerg's best bet is to save them to be morphed to BLs.
vs Brood Lords, similar to mutas, seeker missle still does pretty good, If you have enough ravens to drop a PDD I think by all means you should, but if it's a choice between a PDD and a seeker missile I might opt for the missile.
Really good find though.
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I've never understood why Ts don't build Ravens. PDD is some irritating shit.
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If you want to go casters ZvT Lategame go Ghosts, not Ravens. They are not only extremly good vs Broodlords because Snipe, but at the same time able to handle Muta-switches, Ultra-switches and Infestor-play a lot better then Ravens.
Especially since Broodlords are always accompanied by Infestor/Corruptor to defend them against Vikings, both of which are easily able to Snipe Ravens and eat up PDD charges as well.
Nice find, but imho really not the way to go when you can just use Ghosts and be much better of
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i think the big point to note about this is not that ravens actually own broodlords, but that ravens are pretty useful before broodlords.... so you can blindly make ravens and not suffer a whole lot.
- auto-turret to kill workers
- detection for burrow & creep tumour
- PDD to stop queen, hydra, corrupter, broodlord and muta
seeker missile is a bit crap alone, but if you have a good number of raven's for multiple volleys it can be devastating.
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This is a great find because Ravens will also help detect Infestors which seem to be the central ZvT build these days.
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On March 28 2011 02:20 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:If you want to go casters ZvT Lategame go Ghosts, not Ravens. They are not only extremly good vs Broodlords because Snipe, but at the same time able to handle Muta-switches, Ultra-switches and Infestor-play a lot better then Ravens. Especially since Broodlords are always accompanied by Infestor/Corruptor to defend them against Vikings, both of which are easily able to Snipe Ravens and eat up PDD charges as well. Nice find, but imho really not the way to go when you can just use Ghosts and be much better of
i think both have their merits. ravens seem much better for holding map control, like just sitting at a pivotal area and hunkering down with PDDs and possibly flying around harassing with turrets. ghosts are better at head on attacks and emping infestors. the thing about ghosts is that they also take barracks time so if you want a decent number of them quickly you have to sacrifice marine production, whereas with ravens you sacrifice medivac production and most armies dont benefit from being medivac heavy anyway.
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Random player here, which means that anything good for any race is good for me. Thank you for the information, kind sir. This is what I like about the TL forums. You learn something new everyday.
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I'm not sure what's the best way to add this though.
Should I be having a Reactor Port and a Tech Port late game? or do I hotswitch...
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hunter seeker missile also rapes broodlords
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On March 28 2011 02:32 Sterling wrote:
hunter seeker missile also rapes broodlords
ya but you can only get like 1 off and it's prob best used for 2x pdd
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wow good shit for the raven very nice would love to see this in a show-match game or something and ever 1 starts flipping out haha
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What does zerg have that can counter PDT by killing it or quicly wasting charges? Only infested terran?
Hmmm, I guess fungal growth would bring the PDT down to 2 HP. Not only that but one could neural a raven to use up all its energy.
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are ravens useful at all against ultras tho? or does that not matter as much since your regular ground army should be mostly intact?
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Lol, not even I the Raven guy knew about that. That's awesome. Screw vikings when you can use Ravens with Thor/Hellion lol.
Auto Turrets are somewhat an anti-ultra counter due to them being able to occupy ultras for 10+ swipes and the +@ building armor makes lings take forever to kill them.
On March 28 2011 02:25 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 02:20 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:If you want to go casters ZvT Lategame go Ghosts, not Ravens. They are not only extremly good vs Broodlords because Snipe, but at the same time able to handle Muta-switches, Ultra-switches and Infestor-play a lot better then Ravens. Especially since Broodlords are always accompanied by Infestor/Corruptor to defend them against Vikings, both of which are easily able to Snipe Ravens and eat up PDD charges as well. Nice find, but imho really not the way to go when you can just use Ghosts and be much better of i think both have their merits. ravens seem much better for holding map control, like just sitting at a pivotal area and hunkering down with PDDs and possibly flying around harassing with turrets. ghosts are better at head on attacks and emping infestors. the thing about ghosts is that they also take barracks time so if you want a decent number of them quickly you have to sacrifice marine production, whereas with ravens you sacrifice medivac production and most armies dont benefit from being medivac heavy anyway.
Indeed, Ravens = Map Control while Ghosts are used in mass fights. Ghosts are good in TvZ but they are insanely micro intensive and don't make for a very powerful 200/200 army. Ravens are really good with turret pushes but a game ending turret push requires a ton of ravens. A mass raven turret push will strangle the zerg to death and lock down the whole map. Each turret is basically equivalent to 2(They take roughly twice as long to kill than a single marine) 2/2 marines with stim being healed by medivacs and each Raven can throw them down continuously so Ravens while costing only 2 food can spawn a massive army that is much greater than 2 food and resourceless.
Port tech is also more versatile than Rax + Academy tech (Detection, AA, Cloak Harass, Medivac Drop/Mobility/Heal) so that's also a consideration.
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i thought turrets = upgraded marine that can't move --> ultras lol...no?
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This is gonna turn into another in game thing that Zerg will complain about. I know that a lot of people count on Broodlords, you just shattered their last hope lol.
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On March 28 2011 02:48 Antisocialmunky wrote:Lol, not even I the Raven guy knew about that. That's awesome. Screw vikings when you can use Ravens with Thor/Hellion lol. Auto Turrets are somewhat an anti-ultra counter due to them being able to occupy ultras for 10+ swipes and the +@ building armor makes lings take forever to kill them. Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 02:25 mahnini wrote:On March 28 2011 02:20 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:If you want to go casters ZvT Lategame go Ghosts, not Ravens. They are not only extremly good vs Broodlords because Snipe, but at the same time able to handle Muta-switches, Ultra-switches and Infestor-play a lot better then Ravens. Especially since Broodlords are always accompanied by Infestor/Corruptor to defend them against Vikings, both of which are easily able to Snipe Ravens and eat up PDD charges as well. Nice find, but imho really not the way to go when you can just use Ghosts and be much better of i think both have their merits. ravens seem much better for holding map control, like just sitting at a pivotal area and hunkering down with PDDs and possibly flying around harassing with turrets. ghosts are better at head on attacks and emping infestors. the thing about ghosts is that they also take barracks time so if you want a decent number of them quickly you have to sacrifice marine production, whereas with ravens you sacrifice medivac production and most armies dont benefit from being medivac heavy anyway. Indeed, Ravens = Map Control while Ghosts are used in mass fights. Ghosts are good in TvZ but they are insanely micro intensive and don't make for a very powerful 200/200 army. Ravens are really good with turret pushes but a game ending turret push requires a ton of ravens. A mass raven turret push will strangle the zerg to death and lock down the whole map. Each turret is basically equivalent to 2(They take roughly twice as long to kill than a single marine) 2/2 marines with stim being healed by medivacs and each Raven can throw them down continuously so Ravens while costing only 2 food can spawn a massive army that is much greater than 2 food and resourceless. Port tech is also more versatile than Rax + Academy tech (Detection, AA, Cloak Harass, Medivac Drop/Mobility/Heal) so that's also a consideration.
ghosts + mass thor mech and some tanks is the best max army you can get in tvz, you just snipe the bl;'s and infestors and thor rape everything else. Some tanks here n here to deal with lings and roaches.
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Did they change this? I was pretty sure PDD never blocked broodlings b4 and I've used it a lot...@_@
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I've actually known of this for quite some time, it's the reason I keep Infestors, Slings and Blings underneath the BLs and a few Mutas or Hydras for exhausting the PDDs if I can spare the gas. The crippling weakness of using PDDs is that the marines have to step within range of FG coming from an infestor that is well outside the range of Siege Tanks. It's even more devastating since the patch since the marines die significantly quicker to the FG and thus deal paltry damage to the BLs. That being said, not all Zerg players are familiar with this mechanic interaction and likely won't have prepared Infestor support.
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not bad if you already had the ravens out before he went broodlords, but the gas and starport would be better spent on vikings after you see him making them,
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Very interesting, the only problem that I could see with this is getting the ravens out in time to deal with the broodlords.
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Didn't know this little fact...
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Oh wow.
I'm assuming that the PDD only blocks the broodlings as long as they're still in the air and are considered "projectiles". Once they're on the ground, PDD doesn't stop them.
Well, this is a pretty good find, but it still brings up problems.
While broodlords CAN destroy armies, a lot of zerg players simple get broodlords so that the broodlings can act as a meatshield rather than crippling the enemy army. Once the broodlings are out, they rely on a powerful roach/hydra mix to actually apply the DPS.
So while PDD can negate a number of broodlords for a while, you still have to worry about the still-existent zerg army, what happens when the PDD runs out, and managing to get a decent number of ravens out (which are essentially 1 time use things for engagements)
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ravens also stop viking fire. If youre a iEchoicer the raven can make all the difference!
Ontopic: awesome info. 1 raven for every broodlord would make zergs cry so bad :D :D
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As zerg I am actually quite scared of ravens, but at my level (gold) my opponents are just getting one raven out and flying it around to remove creep.
I wonder why terrans don't use ravens for harass instead of marine drops. You can park ravens behind mining bases and only spend energy in order to place a couple turrets, which seem to be super cost effective compared to dropping marines. If you have seeker missile upgraded you might just get very lucky and pick off mutas when the zerg comes to kill those ravens with mutas, or at least you will force the zerg to spend time microing the mutas for a two-sided attack.
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I dont think ravens are that viable against broodlords. sure they can help you stall and kill off broodlings, but they dont do anything to actually get rid of the broodlords. If the zerg attacks your army with them they are likely to incorporate another units into the mix that can deal damage behind the broodlings. Otherwise they are going to be used to harass and the drones will only stall for time. Since Zerg usually will go corrupter/broodlord vikings are way way better. From replays i watch and games i play there are still people that dont understand all the counters yet. I see a lot of terran try to make vikings to combat mutas and shy away from corrupters. I guess its because terran is so OP that they dont need to know counters, but vikings counter corrupter as well as broodlords yet are weak against mutalisks. I wouldnt recommend ravens unless the Zerg player is smart enough to go muta broodlord.
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Interesting find but I'm not sure it will become a standard response. A Terran is most likely going to have a reactor on his Starport because vikings and medivacs are more versatile than ravens, especially in TvZ.
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Seriously! I didn't know PDD worked on broodlords! I've been trying to find a way to deal with them. Viks don't work because corruptors are so good, and using marines means you have to unseige your tanks, which is more money lost in a sense. I've been using ghosts for snipe because of its awesome range, which works okay, but ghosts are the most expensive unit in the game (by supply at least), and they don't spawn with a whole lot of energy even with mobeus researched. Thors are okay because of their range, too, but PDD is an awesome idea. Plus with HSM, they're great against Mutas and clumps (of anything) and the detection is nice as well. Man, Raven utility just went up 200% for me. I used to have a specific build for fast ravens. I might have to whip that baby out.
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Can you NP a PDD?
I'm 90% sure you can.
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I have been going 2-3 ravens in all my TvZ as of late because of this, auto turrets, and the often overlooked seeker missile. When you expect to engage a zerg you can plop a seeker missile into their baneling charge and do an extreme amount of damage. Also, ravens are quite useful against ultra's because dropping auto-turrets causes the ultras to bunch up and waste time attacking the turrets. This really allows you time to get your siege tanks unsieged and moving.
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Wow thats a nice find. Even though I'm not a terran player, that will be really useful if I get terran when I play as random.
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On March 28 2011 02:47 Dragar wrote:
Can you NP a PDD?
Yes you can.
Edit: After a test you can do NP and cast PDD but it won't stop ranged attack
it's kinda weird
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Thats intresting to see, might encourage terrans to spend some of that excess gas they always seem to have on a few ravens
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On March 28 2011 05:34 Dilheisha wrote:Yes you can.
Serious? Wow lol i still got a lot to learn.
Sky terrran is the future!
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On March 28 2011 01:03 hidiliho wrote:
nice find. Ravens would be viable when/if seeker missile speed is buffed
They're never going to buff that. The whole point of its slow speed is that you can dodge it if you pay attention....
OT: Didn't even know PDD hit broodlings o_O;
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PDD makes the broodlings vanish. But you still get get damaged from the broodling impact shot.
Although this is still good for Marine/Tank because once you lay down a PDD by broodlords you can stim up and pick them off while tanks fire at any ground army coming toward your marines.
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I had no idea PDD blocked brood lings. Most diamond terrans don't hopefully know either. :D (Been owning so many terrans with brood lord/imba-infestor combination.)
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On March 28 2011 00:58 TehForce wrote:
This worked for a long time. It has nothing to do with Patch 1.3
He didnt say anything about 1.3?
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On March 28 2011 05:54 Zayn wrote:
PDD makes the broodlings vanish. But you still get get damaged from the broodling impact shot.
Although this is still good for Marine/Tank because once you lay down a PDD by broodlords you can stim up and pick them off while tanks fire at any ground army coming toward your marines.
And if a pack of infestors are waiting for the marines just outside Siege range, the Marines are fucked.
Fungal Growth Range is 9 with a radius of 2, Brood Lord range is 9.5. Siege Tank Range is 13. Marine Range is 5. In order for marines to get within range of the Brood Lords, they have to go out a distance of 4.5 in front of the Siege Tanks to be able to hit the Brood Lords, meaning the Siege Tanks will hit at furthest targets within 8.5 range of the marines. An Infestor can sit at this range quite comfortably, so while popping PDD and running in with Marines is a viable option if you are caught off guard, it carries significant risk over preparing vikings.
Brood Lord/Infestor compositions will be largely unaffected.
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lol never knew this. it would be really cool to see but I havent seen it in the high levels.
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Hope this gets patched away. Makes no sense and makes BL useless...
User was warned for this post
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Seems very inefficient to me. I'd rather not spend 100 minerals, 200 gas, and 60 seconds of build time on a unit that can only deny broodlings for 20 seconds.
That's a pretty long time even by Blizzard Time (TM).
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Many posts are saying that by the time terran scouts or engages with brood lords, they would just make more vikings out of reactored starports... But the OP's point is more of encouraging terran to incorporate Ravens in your army from the get-go. Many high level terrans are getting one raven for bling landmines anyways, and to handle creep highways.
SO a viable way to look at this is- make 2-4 ravens mid-game just standard and SAVE THEM, and by the time zerg inevitably gets broodlords you will be able to use your PDD to great effect. At least till your army can move up and kill them, or vikings are made. 20 seconds of immunity to broodlings is HUGE for a mech army. Props, this is a great pointer.
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On March 28 2011 06:13 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 00:58 TehForce wrote:
This worked for a long time. It has nothing to do with Patch 1.3 He didnt say anything about 1.3?
On March 28 2011 01:09 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 00:58 TehForce wrote:
This worked for a long time. It has nothing to do with Patch 1.3 Read his topic again, he never once mentions Patch 1.3 or anything of the like. It is something that simply wasent known by most people he is bringing a light to
Thats the OP you're quoting. Perhaps YOU should read his topic again.
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Hey guys I just wanted to mention something interesting.
I took a few months break from starcraft II right after patch 1.1 or something like that. Anyway, before I left I made a little joke post on the general forum about point defense drone not working on broodlings. I had actually tested this with the map editor.
This change that allows PDD to shoot down broodlings was a stealth buff that occurred some time between 1.1 and now.
You can see the thread I made here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628077469#1
please note that the thread is not actually serious. I'm only referencing it because I made it based on the fact that PDD did not fire at broodlings at that time.
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omg since when does pdd works against broodlords. everytime i did it didn't worked and i was searching so desperate for something against infestor broodlords lol. nice sneak in change by blizzard. Now thors and tanks can rip broodlords infestors easily without the fear of getting sniped or mind controled without a tank able to snipe the infestors hehe.
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On March 28 2011 07:12 FeyFey wrote:
omg since when does pdd works against broodlords. everytime i did it didn't worked and i was searching so desperate for something against infestor broodlords lol. nice sneak in change by blizzard. Now thors and tanks can rip broodlords infestors easily without the fear of getting sniped or mind controled without a tank able to snipe the infestors hehe.
aha! I knew i wasn't just imagining things. Like you guys said, this must have been some ninja change, because I clearly remember PDD never shot down broodlings b4. Great change imo  maybe more people will consider ravens for PDD now.
In general though...ravens are very expensive for what they do, and are best in TvT.
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Nice find! Doubt it'll shift the metagame much, but since as a T you end up floating quite some gas by the end game, it looks like it'll be worth to have a couple of ravens at hand.
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Huh, never knew PDD did that.
Gotta stick some hydras or roaches under the PDD now, I guess..
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Hmm. I think that this is a great way to prevent the big problme broodlords cause to a terran - tank splash. A few PDDs and you don't have to unsiege, and your marines will be freer to run up and snipe the BLs.
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Absolutely genius. Finding a new use for a unit that only really held a utility role of detection in the matchup before. I commend you. This will make siege lines and planetary fortresses way stronger against Zerg late game.
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I know ravens don't factor in very much in 1v1 play but this change is actually pretty devastating to FFA. Terrans were already, easily the most powerful FFA race and ravens are used a lot in those games. They are a very powerful unit for harassment with auto turret and can decimate those giant mass flying unit armadas that you see in FFA with seeker missiles. They also block every zerg projectile now except for roaches and infested terrans.
Because this is FFA we are talking about, and i am well aware that blizzard wants to focus on 1v1 balance, I don't expect it to be perfect. However, I can't help but be a little disappointed that FFA balance is so off. I was introduced to the original starcraft through free for alls and i've always really enjoyed it.
Anyway, I just hope that through balancing 1v1 FFA also becomes more balanced as a result.
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Well this certainly stinks for Zerg... the whole point of Brood Lords for many of Zerg Players was finally to have ONE unit with enough HP, RANGE, and special ability to actually break the walls and static defense of a Terran. Now adding like 3 ravens into the static D, tanks, etc. means Brood Lords will get denied and even threatened to die from a mere small group of stimmed marines?
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PDD is for muta, since HSM is too hard to use effectively against muta (he can just run out the muta, run muta over you, run all his muta, kill raven).
HSM though is amazing for slow air units, like broodlord. Broodlord also tend to clump, can't shoot raven (so you can get closer for less reaction time).
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This sounds a lot like a glitch. Why would it only stop the broodling from spawning, and not from actually doing damage?
I have a feeling that this is gonna get patched. It should block the whole shot, and not only the spawn. But maybe Blizz will decide it shouldn't block the shot at all, which might have been their intent in the first place.
Ravens get no love
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wait, so pdd takes up corruptor attacks and broodlord attacks? wow this goona change late game zvt
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man nice find, deff trying this
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This is odd. I thought PDD did not block them. Is this a hidden change? I remember a long time ago that they did not do this.
I will test this later because even though he posted a picture I do not actually believe it yet. I am positive they did not do this before.
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errr... if this is true... vikings vs broodlords will become obsolete in TvZ since marine/tank is the core units for this matchup. And rines RIP through BLs if untouched. This is an amazing find, but, i guarentee you it will be patched and rightly so, because it would make Pdd waaaaay too overpowered vs BL specifically.
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Terran build: Marine+Raven, all day erry day. Would probably work pretty darn well. Marines are the most cost-effective combat unit in the game, Ravens are an excellent spellcaster. Would take ungodly APM, though.
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On March 28 2011 00:56 Ayush_SCtoss wrote:
Wow...you learn something new everyday. How did I not know that. In fact, I bet most of the people that will post do not know about this lol.
No one knew it because it doesn't make sense.
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Rofl I never would have known this...
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Okay I just tested this out and it works but the PDD does not block the broodlings if the broodlords attack buildings; the broodlings still spawn.
Also there a bug where after the PDD blocks the broodlings, the broodling death animation still shows in the location where the broodling should be. So you see invisible broodling death where there shouldn't be any.
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On March 28 2011 05:43 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 01:03 hidiliho wrote:
nice find. Ravens would be viable when/if seeker missile speed is buffed They're never going to buff that. The whole point of its slow speed is that you can dodge it if you pay attention.... OT: Didn't even know PDD hit broodlings o_O;
I think that it would be reasonable to reduce the energy cost to 75. The aoe damage dealt is similar to fungal and storm, but it is dodged much more easily. The full 100 damage has a very very small splash radius, most of the targets in the splash area take 50. It would also be nice if they considered removing the friendly fire component.
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On March 28 2011 01:03 MassacrisM wrote:
Oh great.. more stuff for Terrans to abuse against the only decent Zerg's lategame unit that can be easily countered by Vikings.
I wonder how good Ravens are against ultras, if you force vikings/ravens with broodlords prior.
You cant take 3 examples and cry imba.
Banhammer plz.
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I wonder if the fact that the units still get damaged is actually a bug. Clearly not many people here have even tried using PDD's on broods, and I don't remember every seeing it in a pro game (I never looked that closely) but the fact that a broodling that never reaches the enemy still hurts them seems a bit strange. That kind of defeats the purpose of PDD if it can't block a ranged attack while still using energy on it (I know it stops the broodlings, but that is a side effect that is negated).
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For everyone saying "make vikings", you have to realize that when broodlords come out, at least vs terran, there are almost always infestors for support, otherwise why wouldn't you just stim marines and attack the broodlords?
The problem with getting vikings, while indeed you should, is that pre-patch 1.3 infestors can fungal them, and drop a bunch of infested terrans and kill all your fungaled vikings. If you don't think this ever happens you should watch some of Morrow's games. That was before patch 1.3 however, and now infestors can simply fungal your group of vikings doing extra damage as they are armoured, killing them in 3 fungals, or 12 in game seconds.
While the zerg will probably fungal your ravens as well, the difference is that the raven can throw down its two pdd's immediately, even while fungaled, allowing you some time to take down the bl's and move forward, even if the time is just a few seconds.
Excellent post OP, will look forward to trying it ingame
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Awesome, brood lords just got a ton worse :/
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WTF why? That's ridiculous. No way in hell Ravens should block a t4 unit.
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On March 28 2011 06:21 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 05:54 Zayn wrote:
PDD makes the broodlings vanish. But you still get get damaged from the broodling impact shot.
Although this is still good for Marine/Tank because once you lay down a PDD by broodlords you can stim up and pick them off while tanks fire at any ground army coming toward your marines. And if a pack of infestors are waiting for the marines just outside Siege range, the Marines are fucked. Fungal Growth Range is 9 with a radius of 2, Brood Lord range is 9.5. Siege Tank Range is 13. Marine Range is 5. In order for marines to get within range of the Brood Lords, they have to go out a distance of 4.5 in front of the Siege Tanks to be able to hit the Brood Lords, meaning the Siege Tanks will hit at furthest targets within 8.5 range of the marines. An Infestor can sit at this range quite comfortably, so while popping PDD and running in with Marines is a viable option if you are caught off guard, it carries significant risk over preparing vikings. Brood Lord/Infestor compositions will be largely unaffected.
The Thor has a range of 10 with his air attack. He can now easily take down every attacking Broodlord without getting destroyed
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This might the the future answer for terran's who go heavy mech and start amassing for the second big push where broodlords can punshing a player for not having a high number of vikings. Now instead of adding a high number of vikings just 3-4 ravens and 2-4 vikings may be enough to keep a huge threat on the ground while dealing with the broodlords. Very nice find!!
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The thing is, vikings can be build reactionary, ravens (at least with pdd ready) can not. I usually have 2-3 starports ready by the time i expect broodlords, but i won't build vikings until i see corruptors or broodlords on the battlefield. Vikings can be out in numbers fast enough to react to the broodlord threat. If i rely on raven's pdd though, i have to build them before i see broodlords. Since PDD costs 100 energy, and a raven also takes longer to build than a viking, it will take some time until i have actual pdd's ready. And even then, i will still need units to actually kill the BLs (granted, you can do it with thors or marines which you should have but still ...).
It's still a nice find and it might be really good if you use ravens anyway. I will keep relying on my vikings though.
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United States4796 Posts
WHATTTTT. Sick find. Really well thought out.
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The thing is, vikings are useless if you have a thor/tank/hellion/marine based army and there are no BLs around, while ravens are very useful even in the midgame when you don't expect broodlords at all. And with PDD-support it will be very possible for marines and thors to take down broodlords because their movement and attack priorities will not be messed up.
Still say it's a bug though But I'm going to add some ravens as long as that works, as Broodlords are always a pain when I'm going mech because you never know when they are actually coming as you have to play quite passive.
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This is excellent for a Thor based lategame unit composition and also helps transitioning from Marine Tank as your siege tanks will remain useful once Broodlords appear.
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On March 28 2011 01:50 abominable wrote:LOL i see what you did there OP. spoiler: + Show Spoiler +april fools gag, it doesnt work edit: my bad it does work
dont know where you live, but here on planet Earth, its still march
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Wow, I never knew PDD's shot down broodlings, that's awesome! Thanks for the tip !
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I KNEW IT
I KNEW MASSING RAVENS WASNT A BAD IDEA
wait...
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When the broodlords fire on buildings the pdd does not shoot down the broodlings.
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Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless.
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Wow, as a Zerg player I sure hope that this doesn't become the norm in late-game ZvT! Thinking about the couruptor vs PDD back-and-forths that would ensue is making me cringe.
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On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless.
That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value.
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NOOOOOOOO!!!!
Terrans are starting to realize they have the dark swarm this time...
PDD is SOOOO powerful. Raven is probably the best caster in the game...
And usually when a Terran builds Ravens it is end game for zerg... PDD is just so powerful. (Not too powerful, mind you).
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Friggin' awesome. Gotta love the Raven. Like many have said, does sound a bit unofficial, due to the buggy nature, but hopefully if Blizz addresses it they will just fix the bugs, not remove this. Ultra/BL is excellent at breaking Terran Mech lategame, but with this a varient incorporating several ravens may be worth a serious look. I like to go for Banshees in the early midgame vs. Zerg anyways, before there are too many mutas, so I personally would already have the infrastructure to try this out. Honestly, Terran's don't actually care about the BL's direct damage anyways, it's the disorganization that the broodlings bring that wrecks a Tank army.
I would actually strongly disagree with the usage of HSM, though. In fact, I know some people purposefully refuse to research it, because the infestor-heavy metagame means that 1 NP to grab a raven at the start of a fight can force the Terran to fall back or lose a whole lot of marines, and the Tanks can't retreat with them, letting mutas and the like dart in to pick off tanks. HSM is awesome when it works, but fast-thinking Zergs can turn it around very fast. Still great for picking off the massive muta balls people love in 3v3 and 4v4s, though.
Great find, OP.
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On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless.
If it would take 3 snipes, i'd actually be viable. In reality though, it takes 6 snipes to kill a BL. Is doing a little research so you don't post false information really too much to ask ?
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On March 28 2011 00:59 majestouch wrote:
or you could make vikings, which:
cost less money
don't require a tech lab, thus can be made from a reactor
doesn't need upgs to become exponentially better ie: the corvex reactor or w/e (25energy for ravens)
have more range (9) and effectively can't be killed by the zerg (either you have corruptors which aren't good vs them, or you have mutas which have to be magic boxed assuming they have thors which isn't much of an assumption but more of a definite fact that late in the game (assuming the t doesn't suck)
however,i do agree ravens are underused, PDD is amazing.
This is probably the view most people are gonna go with.
The differences are as follows: Vikings are useless against every other unit, and making a mass of vikings takes time.
The power of having a raven in mid game, and throwing in one or two more in the late game is that you don't have to have a star sence on when the blord tech switch will occur, they don't cost as much supply, so you can do it blindly. They'll still be useful, even if the Z decides to go for something else.
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On March 29 2011 00:26 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 00:59 majestouch wrote:
or you could make vikings, which:
cost less money
don't require a tech lab, thus can be made from a reactor
doesn't need upgs to become exponentially better ie: the corvex reactor or w/e (25energy for ravens)
have more range (9) and effectively can't be killed by the zerg (either you have corruptors which aren't good vs them, or you have mutas which have to be magic boxed assuming they have thors which isn't much of an assumption but more of a definite fact that late in the game (assuming the t doesn't suck)
however,i do agree ravens are underused, PDD is amazing. This is probably the view most people are gonna go with. The differences are as follows: Vikings are useless against every other unit, and making a mass of vikings takes time. The power of having a raven in mid game, and throwing in one or two more in the late game is that you don't have to have a star sence on when the blord tech switch will occur, they don't cost as much supply, so you can do it blindly. They'll still be useful, even if the Z decides to go for something else.
In a typical TvZ you will most likely face lings, blings, roaches, infestors, mutas and broodlords, maybe ultras. Vikings are not the most effective unit against most of those, but they are certainly not "useless". I don't see ravens being more effective than vikings against any of those units. I'd rather have a dozen landed vikings than a dozen ravens in most situations. Until they somehow fix the seeker missile, you'll probably only see ravens for pdd timing pushes and detection.
Don't forget that those extra ravens you get seriously cut into your tank count.
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Wow, pdd one shots 30 hp boordlings
who would have thought, awesome find
Hope this is intended and not a bug, always saw broodlings a bit as the zerg equivalent of the fighter drones carriers have and 1 shotting them with a pdd feels a bit odd:s
Vikings are not so bad imo against zerg on ground
they 3 shot zerglings without overkill wich is realy nice , they can form a nice wall and with their high hp they dont die to fast
The only zerg unit with a bonus to armoured is the ultralisk so imo landed vikings are actually pretty decent against zerg (against terran and toss marauder/tank/stalker/immortal kill viking to fast)
Will definatly try raven though in my noob games against boordlord, loved pdd already
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Dude that's legit. Now I'm getting a Raven every game now...
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Ravens are actually pretty nifty in TvZ. As a high Diamond player several months ago I was working on ways to incorporate them into my play with some pretty good results. I don't suggest using them for early harass against a Zerg who's going fast Infestor though unless you're really careful with your spotting and micro.
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On March 29 2011 00:36 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 00:26 Euronyme wrote:On March 28 2011 00:59 majestouch wrote:
or you could make vikings, which:
cost less money
don't require a tech lab, thus can be made from a reactor
doesn't need upgs to become exponentially better ie: the corvex reactor or w/e (25energy for ravens)
have more range (9) and effectively can't be killed by the zerg (either you have corruptors which aren't good vs them, or you have mutas which have to be magic boxed assuming they have thors which isn't much of an assumption but more of a definite fact that late in the game (assuming the t doesn't suck)
however,i do agree ravens are underused, PDD is amazing. This is probably the view most people are gonna go with. The differences are as follows: Vikings are useless against every other unit, and making a mass of vikings takes time. The power of having a raven in mid game, and throwing in one or two more in the late game is that you don't have to have a star sence on when the blord tech switch will occur, they don't cost as much supply, so you can do it blindly. They'll still be useful, even if the Z decides to go for something else. In a typical TvZ you will most likely face lings, blings, roaches, infestors, mutas and broodlords, maybe ultras. Vikings are not the most effective unit against most of those, but they are certainly not "useless". I don't see ravens being more effective than vikings against any of those units. I'd rather have a dozen landed vikings than a dozen ravens in most situations. Until they somehow fix the seeker missile, you'll probably only see ravens for pdd timing pushes and detection. Don't forget that those extra ravens you get seriously cut into your tank count.
never used mass ravens before did you?(like 6 or7 of them)
ravens are really seful, turrets may not have so much dps, but they have 150 hp, and block banelings, you can harass heavily a expo and if mutas come around, you just run away putting some PDD's while you marines isn't around.
Also, this force zerg to move around the map, and 0/3 turrets isn't something easy to deal with just ling and mutas.
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Damn I had no idea ravens could do this, seems like on open terrain a couple ravens + marines would rape brood lords, and even if you still need vikings you will take much less damage while the vikings kill the blords. Why not get a couple ravens earlier to deny creep without wasting scans, and then you're already prepared for the switch to brood lords if it happens.
I wonder if PDD will also kill broodlings spawned from a dead building.
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Do you guys think that with decent micro it's possible to FE,and constant marine (+ some marauder to soak up baneling damage) exchanges against zerg ,adding medivacs and ravens later to for support ,while skipping tanks?
Your focus should be stay both you and zerg on low food cap ,since MMM is not really good when big food caps kicks in.
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I'm starting to incorporate ravens into my TvZ now. I saw this on Spanishwa's stream, which is where I'm guessing you saw it too. They're useful for creep, PDD if broods/mutas show and auto turrets. I normally have the gas to start adding them without hurting my main army too much as well.
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Did not know PDD stopped brood lords, and that tech is always available late game, Thanks for the Tip.
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On March 28 2011 17:35 Lurk wrote:
The thing is, vikings can be build reactionary, ravens (at least with pdd ready) can not. I usually have 2-3 starports ready by the time i expect broodlords, but i won't build vikings until i see corruptors or broodlords on the battlefield. Vikings can be out in numbers fast enough to react to the broodlord threat. If i rely on raven's pdd though, i have to build them before i see broodlords. Since PDD costs 100 energy, and a raven also takes longer to build than a viking, it will take some time until i have actual pdd's ready. And even then, i will still need units to actually kill the BLs (granted, you can do it with thors or marines which you should have but still ...).
It's still a nice find and it might be really good if you use ravens anyway. I will keep relying on my vikings though.
I do not understand how terrans manage to get surprised by broodlords. Once you spot a Hive, just check the spire. It takes a little less than five years to get the greater spire. It takes corruptors to make broodlords. And then again, a bunch of seconds for them to morph.
Is without doubt the hardest unit to get in starcraft.
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Well, I don't really know what are blizzard thoughts behind it -.- if PDD can counter broodlings, why not testing it with carriers, which involve, in my opinion, the same mechanic ?
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On March 29 2011 02:14 Treemonkeys wrote:
Damn I had no idea ravens could do this, seems like on open terrain a couple ravens + marines would rape brood lords, and even if you still need vikings you will take much less damage while the vikings kill the blords. Why not get a couple ravens earlier to deny creep without wasting scans, and then you're already prepared for the switch to brood lords if it happens.
I wonder if PDD will also kill broodlings spawned from a dead building.
I really like the statement I bolded for you.
Also, the broodlings that spawn after a building dies are not projectiles. It would be pretty silly if the PDD killed them.
edit: lol messed up bolding text... nothing to see here folks.
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On March 29 2011 02:41 gREIFOCs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 17:35 Lurk wrote:
The thing is, vikings can be build reactionary, ravens (at least with pdd ready) can not. I usually have 2-3 starports ready by the time i expect broodlords, but i won't build vikings until i see corruptors or broodlords on the battlefield. Vikings can be out in numbers fast enough to react to the broodlord threat. If i rely on raven's pdd though, i have to build them before i see broodlords. Since PDD costs 100 energy, and a raven also takes longer to build than a viking, it will take some time until i have actual pdd's ready. And even then, i will still need units to actually kill the BLs (granted, you can do it with thors or marines which you should have but still ...).
It's still a nice find and it might be really good if you use ravens anyway. I will keep relying on my vikings though. I do not understand how terrans manage to get surprised by broodlords. Once you spot a Hive, just check the spire. It takes a little less than five years to get the greater spire. It takes corruptors to make broodlords. And then again, a bunch of seconds for them to morph. Is without doubt the hardest unit to get in starcraft.
As i said, i'll have starports ready by the time broodlords are due. I won't build vikings though - why ? There are those amongst the swarm that love to fool the terrans by building a greater spire and never getting broodlords. The terran will get lots of vikings to combat what will never come and be roflstomped by ultralisks.
This is not my imagination but happens quite often at high level play. See fruitdealer GSL1 finals for example.
Also, getting vikings why you actually see broodlords is usually fast enough. Vikings get produced quite fast and broodlords are really slow.
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On March 28 2011 23:58 CustomKal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless. That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value.
A fully raven army is even more, but vikings themself aren't cheap and aren't great against anything other than air and harassing mineral lines, at least with the Ghosts you can cloak later on, emp infestors, or even snipe again.
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On March 29 2011 03:23 LiamTheZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 23:58 CustomKal wrote:On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless. That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value. A fully raven army is even more, but vikings themself aren't cheap and aren't great against anything other than air and harassing mineral lines, at least with the Ghosts you can cloak later on, emp infestors, or even snipe again.
it takes 5 snipes to kill a broodlord. the thing about cutting so deep into your gas is if someone is going raven ghost just to stop broodlords you can probably keep the fight on the ground because he will have no tanks.
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On March 29 2011 03:29 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 03:23 LiamTheZerg wrote:On March 28 2011 23:58 CustomKal wrote:On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless. That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value. A fully raven army is even more, but vikings themself aren't cheap and aren't great against anything other than air and harassing mineral lines, at least with the Ghosts you can cloak later on, emp infestors, or even snipe again. it takes 5 snipes to kill a broodlord. the thing about cutting so deep into your gas is if someone is going raven ghost just to stop broodlords you can probably keep the fight on the ground because he will have no tanks.
Yeah, but if you force enough Ravens or they have good enough ghost micro, Terran can still win except they get additional points for style. Its not the same as Vikings as vikings are much more one note. You can HSM baneling blobs and turret spam a zerg who failed a BL transition or you can be Beta Jinro and be able to split marines 3 ways and snipe every baneling, muta, and ultralisk with ghosts.
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On March 29 2011 03:29 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 03:23 LiamTheZerg wrote:On March 28 2011 23:58 CustomKal wrote:On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless. That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value. A fully raven army is even more, but vikings themself aren't cheap and aren't great against anything other than air and harassing mineral lines, at least with the Ghosts you can cloak later on, emp infestors, or even snipe again. it takes 5 snipes to kill a broodlord. the thing about cutting so deep into your gas is if someone is going raven ghost just to stop broodlords you can probably keep the fight on the ground because he will have no tanks.
It's 6, actually. Zerg units regenerate 1 hp the instant they take damage. That means they effectively have +1 hitpoints, unless you oneshot them.
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On March 29 2011 03:33 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 03:29 mahnini wrote:On March 29 2011 03:23 LiamTheZerg wrote:On March 28 2011 23:58 CustomKal wrote:On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless. That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value. A fully raven army is even more, but vikings themself aren't cheap and aren't great against anything other than air and harassing mineral lines, at least with the Ghosts you can cloak later on, emp infestors, or even snipe again. it takes 5 snipes to kill a broodlord. the thing about cutting so deep into your gas is if someone is going raven ghost just to stop broodlords you can probably keep the fight on the ground because he will have no tanks. Yeah, but if you force enough Ravens or they have good enough ghost micro, Terran can still win except they get additional points for style. Its not the same as Vikings as vikings are much more one note. You can HSM baneling blobs and turret spam a zerg who failed a BL transition or you can be Beta Jinro and be able to split marines 3 ways and snipe every baneling, muta, and ultralisk with ghosts.
yeah, i definitely like the ravens rather than viking approach because ravens have utility throughout the game but it's probably better to pick either ghosts or ravens and not both.
On March 29 2011 03:39 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 03:29 mahnini wrote:On March 29 2011 03:23 LiamTheZerg wrote:On March 28 2011 23:58 CustomKal wrote:On March 28 2011 22:52 LiamTheZerg wrote:
Im sure its been posted but ghosts own broodlords, 3 snipes = a dead broodlord i believe, maybe 4. If you PDD a few times then snipe, the broodlords are useless. That combo is also a min of 150 gas per ghost and 200 per raven, not a very balanced army in value. A fully raven army is even more, but vikings themself aren't cheap and aren't great against anything other than air and harassing mineral lines, at least with the Ghosts you can cloak later on, emp infestors, or even snipe again. it takes 5 snipes to kill a broodlord. the thing about cutting so deep into your gas is if someone is going raven ghost just to stop broodlords you can probably keep the fight on the ground because he will have no tanks. It's 6, actually. Zerg units regenerate 1 hp the instant they take damage. That means they effectively have +1 hitpoints, unless you oneshot them.
oh, right. 150 energy to kill one bl.
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SK terran late game incoming. PDD to deal with ALL of zerg's air and turrets to screw up ultralisk/bling pathing tech switch + mass marine medivac and some tanks.
Thats actually really cool and auto turrets are also ridiculously good against mutas/screwing up pathing + ravens save scans.
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wow good to know. never knew pdd stopped broodlings. i always thought they only stopped missile projectiles and never considered broodlings as missiles ^_^
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Someone did this to me yesterday. Blows my mind how fast teamliquid information can spread to ladder sometimes, but maybe it was a fluke. The Terran scouted me morphing my greater spire and in turn i scouted him starting to get ravens. Immediately I knew he had read this post, because why else get ravens if you know I'm going broodlords.
I felt the raven was more of an annoyance then anything. The Terran could not push my broodlords with marines because I had banelings sitting behind them so it appeared to boil down to me just waiting for the ravens to run out of energy.
The Terran had vikings, but he was not able to get a substantial amount to cause problems for me. Well the PDD was delaying my push I knew immediately "You invested in Ravens instead of vikings. . .overseer time". I literally crippled viking production because I didn't need more broods because PDD was stalling me, don't need more corrupter's because he invested the gas into Ravens and the few corrupters I had could easily take his few vikings. Didn't need more blings because his marines couldn't push me (at that particular moment). So I decided to just mass overseer after watching mr.bitters training with Spanishiwa and just stalled the viking production.
By time everything was said and done I won, but it was a very interesting match up. I think if the Terran had invested in the Ravens earlier in the game and when he saw me morphing the greater spire made viking instead I would have been in trouble.
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That's a great tip to know. Thanks OP!
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Very nice find! And PPDs stay active for so long that you could just drop some around your expansions and go attack elsewhere safely.
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On March 29 2011 03:46 Validity wrote:
SK terran late game incoming. PDD to deal with ALL of zerg's air and turrets to screw up ultralisk/bling pathing tech switch + mass marine medivac and some tanks.
Thats actually really cool and auto turrets are also ridiculously good against mutas/screwing up pathing + ravens save scans.
Maybe. It depends on if its possible to deal with rapefestors with a bio-centric army long enough that you can do some sort of 3 port raven. You can't get a lot of tanks if you want to invest in your tech ASAP so you'd end up doing some sort of MMM + Hellions.
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nice find!
the problem is the raven is to slow imo
mutas gonna pick him off so easily if he's not guarded by 20 marines and thors.
vessels were at a similiar speed to mutas making it possible to irradiate or flee from them
also they could fly over the map and pick lurkers etc. off
i think a ravenspeed buff would make it more dynamic, and also indirectly buff hsm
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On March 28 2011 17:44 Bommes wrote:
The thing is, vikings are useless if you have a thor/tank/hellion/marine based army and there are no BLs around, while ravens are very useful even in the midgame when you don't expect broodlords at all. And with PDD-support it will be very possible for marines and thors to take down broodlords because their movement and attack priorities will not be messed up..
Yea, this is how I see it as well. Ravens already have utility in a tank push as a PDD can allow me a few extra seconds to get my marines or Thors back into position to cover my tanks if the mutas try and snipe one.
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On March 29 2011 00:36 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 00:26 Euronyme wrote:On March 28 2011 00:59 majestouch wrote:
or you could make vikings, which:
cost less money
don't require a tech lab, thus can be made from a reactor
doesn't need upgs to become exponentially better ie: the corvex reactor or w/e (25energy for ravens)
have more range (9) and effectively can't be killed by the zerg (either you have corruptors which aren't good vs them, or you have mutas which have to be magic boxed assuming they have thors which isn't much of an assumption but more of a definite fact that late in the game (assuming the t doesn't suck)
however,i do agree ravens are underused, PDD is amazing. This is probably the view most people are gonna go with. The differences are as follows: Vikings are useless against every other unit, and making a mass of vikings takes time. The power of having a raven in mid game, and throwing in one or two more in the late game is that you don't have to have a star sence on when the blord tech switch will occur, they don't cost as much supply, so you can do it blindly. They'll still be useful, even if the Z decides to go for something else. In a typical TvZ you will most likely face lings, blings, roaches, infestors, mutas and broodlords, maybe ultras. Vikings are not the most effective unit against most of those, but they are certainly not "useless". I don't see ravens being more effective than vikings against any of those units. I'd rather have a dozen landed vikings than a dozen ravens in most situations. Until they somehow fix the seeker missile, you'll probably only see ravens for pdd timing pushes and detection. Don't forget that those extra ravens you get seriously cut into your tank count.
You didn't read my post. Note that I said 'a raven', not a dozen. One raven can be pretty awesome, and it's got far more utility in the midgame than one and a half tank.
Terran is the race I feel use the least units, and I think it cuts into their ability to play optimally.
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some terran just went bc/raven against my broodlords and mutas, expanded to islands, and then i lost.
it's a pretty strong combo, and he was using PDD to just rape the broodlords and even when i had corruptors out
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I do not understand. I just tested it out in the unit tester, Marines+Raven vs BroodLords. The PDD did shoot at the broodlings but the broodlings still killed my marines. I am missing something?
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On March 29 2011 15:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand. I just tested it out in the unit tester, Marines+Raven vs BroodLords. The PDD did shoot at the broodlings but the broodlings still killed my marines. I am missing something?
In addition to the broodlings,it also does damage.the PDD somewhat nullifies the impact damage of the Broodling,but the broodling still spawns.Just check liquipedia to understand better.
So when the BL launches it's broodlings,it causes 20 damage in addition to the spawned broodlings
EDIT:post below me explains it,ignore this
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On March 29 2011 03:58 DemiAlbedo wrote:
Someone did this to me yesterday. Blows my mind how fast teamliquid information can spread to ladder sometimes, but maybe it was a fluke. The Terran scouted me morphing my greater spire and in turn i scouted him starting to get ravens. Immediately I knew he had read this post, because why else get ravens if you know I'm going broodlords.
I felt the raven was more of an annoyance then anything. The Terran could not push my broodlords with marines because I had banelings sitting behind them so it appeared to boil down to me just waiting for the ravens to run out of energy.
The Terran had vikings, but he was not able to get a substantial amount to cause problems for me. Well the PDD was delaying my push I knew immediately "You invested in Ravens instead of vikings. . .overseer time". I literally crippled viking production because I didn't need more broods because PDD was stalling me, don't need more corrupter's because he invested the gas into Ravens and the few corrupters I had could easily take his few vikings. Didn't need more blings because his marines couldn't push me (at that particular moment). So I decided to just mass overseer after watching mr.bitters training with Spanishiwa and just stalled the viking production.
By time everything was said and done I won, but it was a very interesting match up. I think if the Terran had invested in the Ravens earlier in the game and when he saw me morphing the greater spire made viking instead I would have been in trouble.
You analysed it correctly, he used the raven wrong. Its especially not meant for marines running to kill the Broods or to cut into viking production.
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On March 29 2011 15:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand. I just tested it out in the unit tester, Marines+Raven vs BroodLords. The PDD did shoot at the broodlings but the broodlings still killed my marines. I am missing something?
Like i said in the op: The Broodling gets killed but the attack still does 20 damage.
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I suppose the main point of the op is for terrans to get ravens for other purposes than just detection.
Personally I belive we will see ravens(and also ghosts) play a bigger role in the future when we understand the game better. (being a staple unit, instead of a cool unit).
I dont see ravens replacing vikings, but with a few ravens (multipurpose) you dont need that many vikings (somewhat singlepurpose). Meaning you can still kill the same army, but you are not completely screwed against transitions.
In either case, it is still a very nice find :D
edit: I highly doubt that the initial "counter" to mutas in BW were science vessels, maybe we will see a similar path for ravens?
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is there any evidence to show this isn't a bug? I only ask because i could see the PDD stopping the broodlords initial attack, but I dont see how it is supposed to kill a broodling? the broodling spawn isn't really a projectile attack. Does a PDD also kill the broodlings spawned when a zerg building is killed?
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Most likely just a bug that popped up in the last patch.
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On March 29 2011 17:20 Nairi wrote:edit: I highly doubt that the initial "counter" to mutas in BW were science vessels, maybe we will see a similar path for ravens?
Well, in theory, seeker missile is a very scary counter to mutas - 2 missiles can easily annihilate a large muta ball. However, due to the mechanic of the missile, the zerg player can quite easily avoid that - mutas are way faster than the missile.
Now add that seeker missile needs to be researched, costs 125 energy (why they did that is beyond me) and has a very small range. Also, since the missile does friendly fire, there is the potential danger that the zerg player identifies the targeted muta and flies it into a group of marines or so, killing a lot of your own units.
I'd really love to use ravens more, i really do. I just don't see how. Just think about it - out of all the abilites in the game, there are only 3 that cost more than 75 energy - and 2 of those are raven abilities (pdd - 100, seeker missile - 125). And on top of that, the raven is also the most expensive caster in the game.
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And we thought we know so much about the game :D Even almost after 1 year stuff surfaces up
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On March 29 2011 02:48 sUxiii wrote:
Well, I don't really know what are blizzard thoughts behind it -.- if PDD can counter broodlings, why not testing it with carriers, which involve, in my opinion, the same mechanic ?
Oh thats just great as if marines didn't annihilate carriers already rofl.
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This doesn't make any sense. How are Broodlings considered projectiles? Ugh...
I'm not a fan of using Ultras in TvZ unless Terran goes Heavy mech.
Crap.
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Wait, it took us this long to figure out that PDDs block mid-air broodlings? o_O Maybe late game TvZ won't be so bad anymore once it's not on the low anymore, as brood lords are usually the Terran killer in the lategame.
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Wow, never knew that. I wonder if we see some change in play on the top levels after this thread.
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I'd really love to use ravens more, i really do. I just don't see how. Just think about it - out of all the abilites in the game, there are only 3 that cost more than 75 energy - and 2 of those are raven abilities (pdd - 100, seeker missile - 125). And on top of that, the raven is also the most expensive caster in the game.
hallucinate, Vortex, Mass recall, PDD, Seeker missile & Neural parasite.
Or at least those are the ones i remember.
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I'm fairly certain its bugged. The PDD will stop broodlings from landing on the ground when attacking UNITS but does not stop the base damage the broodlord does. PDD doesn't even affect the broodlord/broodling at all if the attack is against a building structure.
Either PDD is suppose to include broodlords entirely or broodlords are immune. Right its more like a loophole than an actual change that we should be relying on.
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I really hope this is just a bug. Without broodlings spawning brood lords are just a gas sink. I played a T on ladder last night and once he put out the PDD it was pretty much game over. All my brood lords just got destroyed by 1/3 that number of 3/3 thors with a few scvs. :[
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The OP says PDD stops corruptor attacks, I'm fairly certain it doesn't (corruptors and infested terrans being the only Zerg units who can shoot down PDD from the air)
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It's probably a bug.
Whether or not it will be classified as a 'feature', i don't know.
It should be that it lets the broodling land but doesn't negate the projectile. Or neither, or both... So strange that it lets the damage through.
Anyway if Z has no mutas or hydras then it's probably worth it but I thought most zergs were keeping mutas around to help defend the broods and maintain map control. Or queens in the back to transfuse BL's.
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If this is effective enough to work into games, I think it's one of those "clutch pressure plays" that SC2 haters bash on there not being enough of. Looking forward to seeing it. =]
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On April 09 2011 05:37 darkscream wrote:
The OP says PDD stops corruptor attacks, I'm fairly certain it doesn't (corruptors and infested terrans being the only Zerg units who can shoot down PDD from the air)
It does. I recently won a TvZ with raven/battlecruiser by using PDDs to render the battlecruisers immune to all my opponent's anti-air.
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On April 09 2011 06:44 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 05:37 darkscream wrote:
The OP says PDD stops corruptor attacks, I'm fairly certain it doesn't (corruptors and infested terrans being the only Zerg units who can shoot down PDD from the air) It does. I recently won a TvZ with raven/battlecruiser by using PDDs to render the battlecruisers immune to all my opponent's anti-air.
Do you mean broodlords?
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On April 09 2011 06:51 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 06:44 Ezekyle wrote:On April 09 2011 05:37 darkscream wrote:
The OP says PDD stops corruptor attacks, I'm fairly certain it doesn't (corruptors and infested terrans being the only Zerg units who can shoot down PDD from the air) It does. I recently won a TvZ with raven/battlecruiser by using PDDs to render the battlecruisers immune to all my opponent's anti-air. Do you mean broodlords?
Do you mean corruptors?
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It's a poorly constructed sentence but, he's saying he used PDDs to make the opponents AA unable to damage the battlecruisers, thus making the battlecruisers immune to all the opponents anti-air. Anyways i find it kind of odd that PDD stops a unit from being constructed. It's like if you could use pdd to stop a pdd or auto-turret.
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On April 09 2011 06:51 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 06:44 Ezekyle wrote:On April 09 2011 05:37 darkscream wrote:
The OP says PDD stops corruptor attacks, I'm fairly certain it doesn't (corruptors and infested terrans being the only Zerg units who can shoot down PDD from the air) It does. I recently won a TvZ with raven/battlecruiser by using PDDs to render the battlecruisers immune to all my opponent's anti-air. Do you mean broodlords?
No, he means battlecruisers...
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I have a question regarding the usage of ravens against Broodlords/corrupters. Due to the broodlings being negated meaning Marines can run up to the Broodlords, does that mean we might see some kind of SK Terran style pop up as you can always use Marauders in with the mix to stop any banelings he has. Also I'm sure that Hunter Seeker Missile would be quite effective against both the large clump of Corrupters and or the clump of Broodlords much like Irradiate was against Gaurdians as they take so long to split. I'm really looking forward to messing around with Ravens as they're my favourite unit I think.
Also, if you use alot of PDDs to stop the corrupters then maybe a good transition into late game would be to go for MMMR Battlecruisers? Battlecruisers are very good against Mutalisks and if PDD stops the corrupters it gives your BCs free reign over the skies.
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:O I'm honestly curious on how you stumbled across this.
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On April 09 2011 04:30 chickensnack wrote:
I'm fairly certain its bugged. The PDD will stop broodlings from landing on the ground when attacking UNITS but does not stop the base damage the broodlord does. PDD doesn't even affect the broodlord/broodling at all if the attack is against a building structure.
Either PDD is suppose to include broodlords entirely or broodlords are immune. Right its more like a loophole than an actual change that we should be relying on.
I second this. Whether or not they intend for the PDD to stop Broodlings it's clearly not working correctly.
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Cool exploit... needs patched. Come on blizzard, get on it.
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On April 09 2011 10:03 CodECleaR wrote:
:O I'm honestly curious on how you stumbled across this.
Corruptors and Brood Lords often go hand in hand.
PDD against Corruptors is nothing new, so mostly likely in a TvZ a PDD and a Brood Lord managed to survive when no Corruptors were around.
Brood Lord tried to fire on a ground and the PDD stepped in.
Although interesting, I feel it's a bug (and I play Terran) as the Broodling, although technically a projectile, is also a unit, albeit temporary.
I'd rather see the PDD stop the initial damage from the Brood Lord (the 20 dmg hit) but let the Broodling itself stay alive and do its thing.
That way the projectile itself and the damage it applies is stopped (which is what the PDD does) but the Broodling itself is unharmed.
More likely though is that Broodlings will be excepted from the PDD list, which is fine too.
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oO, does this mean that the broodlords wont even deal damage when there's point defense drone?? i nvr knew that.... lol
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Ravens are very powerfull units which are underused.
But, herein lies the problem in Raven use:
Viking - 150 mins, 75 gas, 42 sec buildtime, can be reactored
Raven- 100 mins, 200 gas, 60 sec buildtime, requires techlab
1. Gas is usually the bottleneck for Terrans
2. You usually already have a Starport with a reactor for medivac production
Due to this, if you are playing a build that relies on bio it is hard to squeeze out a Raven unless you open Banshees, and even then the 200 gas is a heavy investment, because you do need to transition quickly out of Banshees after they outlive their peak usefullness.
Furthermore, getting a Raven right after banshees is very situational based on what the zerg is doing. Unless he is going heavy Hydra (rare) it isn't going be super effective that early in the game.
By the time Zerg gets broodlords you usually have the infrastructure to produce a good amount of vikings quick, which with proper positioning are very effective vs broods. Depending on the Zergs army comp that late in the game, the PDD also has the potential to not do much because of how many projectiles are in the air at the same time.
That being said, I think it would be interesting to see if Ravens can be worked into some mech builds. Due to not needing medivacs I do see some potential there. Then again for a mech build 200 gas is still an investment, as that could mean an extra thor, but due to the versatility of Ravens it could be worth it.
You can't just look at one unit, you have to look at the consequences of getting that unit. At high levels where everything matters this is even more important. It is hard to fit Ravens into most terran builds, it is also dangerous to rely on them, as if the zerg picks it off, or you mismicro your Raven, it could cost you the game. Multiple Ravens can counteract this, but are a huge investment, as you now are dedicating Starports and a hefty amout of gas to raven production, Starports that could be used for medivacs/vikings, and gas that could be used for upgrades.
Ravens have the potential to be the best caster for controlling space, with PDD and HSM. Unfortunately the consequences of actually getting them being too high coupled with the cost of their abilities make it not worth it in most cases.
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If i see the possibility of broodlords, i make sure I have 2 starports (one reactored, at least) and pump vikings, and pump marines.
3-3 Marines Stutter micro'd into broodlords can take em out rather quickly. you have to make to stutter in order to deal with the broodlings on the ground already. You also need a large ball of marines. But i've taken out 8 broodlords with a group of about 30 marines and 3 vikings.
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Im not even sure is it a bug, or that should be.
But i find pdd abuse makes broodlords even more useless :///
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hunter seeker is the answer to broods...they are so slow they cant outrun it. a few ravens > broods
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Also infestors cant spell fungal on Ravens. I read the whole thread, i didnt see anyone mentioned.
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On May 10 2011 03:02 MacRoManceR wrote:
Also infestors cant spell fungal on Ravens. I read the whole thread, i didnt see anyone mentioned.
I'm pretty sure they can... Where's your source for infestors not being able to fungal ravens??
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This is interesting because one the big issues with going vikings is that the ultra transition is so brutal. Maybe there is a way to use ravens residual energy to put down some turrets to block off ultras from reaching your tanks by making a wall of turrets.
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Man, the things you can learn on TL... Thanks OP.
I'm just gonna say though, even though PDD might be more useful if you're not massing Ravens, nothing will ever be more satisfying than seeing a couple of HSM decimating a Zerg ball. That pretty flash and the shock wave.....aww yeah.
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Ghosts is better than Ravens + Viking with snipe IMO. And the buff in the next patch ( 100Gas for Ghost ) I think ghosts will be more powerful in lategame TvZ. They can use EMP on Infestsor too.
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On May 10 2011 03:05 han_han wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:02 MacRoManceR wrote:
Also infestors cant spell fungal on Ravens. I read the whole thread, i didnt see anyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure they can... Where's your source for infestors not being able to fungal ravens??
Well, in one game some1 tried to fungal them, i was pretty sure his fungal hit my Raven, but it didnt effect my raven, so i tested it in unit tester map. And unit tester proved that fungal is not affecting ravens
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On May 10 2011 03:15 MacRoManceR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:05 han_han wrote:On May 10 2011 03:02 MacRoManceR wrote:
Also infestors cant spell fungal on Ravens. I read the whole thread, i didnt see anyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure they can... Where's your source for infestors not being able to fungal ravens?? Well, in one game some1 tried to fungal them, i was pretty sure his fungal hit my Raven, but it didnt effect my raven, so i tested it in unit tester map. And unit tester proved that fungal is not affecting ravens
I think its just you not knowing how to aim spells because ravens can 100% be fungal growth'd. You have to aim for the the ground the air unit is over, not the model.
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On May 10 2011 03:20 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:15 MacRoManceR wrote:On May 10 2011 03:05 han_han wrote:On May 10 2011 03:02 MacRoManceR wrote:
Also infestors cant spell fungal on Ravens. I read the whole thread, i didnt see anyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure they can... Where's your source for infestors not being able to fungal ravens?? Well, in one game some1 tried to fungal them, i was pretty sure his fungal hit my Raven, but it didnt effect my raven, so i tested it in unit tester map. And unit tester proved that fungal is not affecting ravens I think its just you not knowing how to aim spells because ravens can 100% be fungal growth'd. You have to aim for the the ground the air unit is over, not the model.
yeap, you are right my bad
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Thanks for clarifying, I was always a bit confused about this :D
Heheh, 20 dmg seems measly without the broodlings!
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Did not know this, awesome to know!
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Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch?
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Definitely not a bug, has been in the Liquipedia page on PDD since at least a month ago, when I read it.
Good find! Didn't know about the BL still doing damage but not spawning the broodlings.
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On May 12 2011 16:09 TheRealDJ wrote:
Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch?
Mm just tried it out in unit tester and got same results. I guess it has been nerfed Getting a bit fed up with all these nerfs, having to play the game exactly after Blizzard's transcript.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:04 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:09 TheRealDJ wrote:
Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch? Mm just tried it out in unit tester and got same results. I guess it has been nerfed Getting a bit fed up with all these nerfs, having to play the game exactly after Blizzard's transcript.
It used to be that PDDs intercept incoming broodlings that are attacking units, but they DO NOT intercept incoming broodlings that are attacking buildings, such as autoturrets. In previous patches, if you were using autoturrets, instead of, say, marauders, which is why you didn't observe the effects you hoped for.
However, blizzard has since fixed this, and PDDs no longer affect broodlords.[Video of Test]
Unless I'm doing something wrong here, it appears that this no longer works.
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This is game braking. And should be hotfixed asap.
PDD should block only the dmg of the broodords shot (but let broodlings spawn) or something similar.
EDIT: oh...it might have been fixed already then.
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On May 12 2011 17:23 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:04 Zarahtra wrote:On May 12 2011 16:09 TheRealDJ wrote:
Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch? Mm just tried it out in unit tester and got same results. I guess it has been nerfed Getting a bit fed up with all these nerfs, having to play the game exactly after Blizzard's transcript. It used to be that PDDs intercept incoming broodlings that are attacking units, but they DO NOT intercept incoming broodlings that are attacking buildings, such as autoturrets. In previous patches, if you were using autoturrets, instead of, say, marauders, which is why you didn't observe the effects you hoped for. However, blizzard has since fixed this, and PDDs no longer affect broodlords. [Video of Test]Unless I'm doing something wrong here, it appears that this no longer works.
Ok... first part you say I tested it wrong and second part you say I'm(well therealdj) still right...
In any case sucks that they'd nerf it, never used raven's PDD for blords, but still it allowed for creative usage of ravens which was good.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:52 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:23 Blazinghand wrote:On May 12 2011 17:04 Zarahtra wrote:On May 12 2011 16:09 TheRealDJ wrote:
Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch? Mm just tried it out in unit tester and got same results. I guess it has been nerfed Getting a bit fed up with all these nerfs, having to play the game exactly after Blizzard's transcript. It used to be that PDDs intercept incoming broodlings that are attacking units, but they DO NOT intercept incoming broodlings that are attacking buildings, such as autoturrets. In previous patches, if you were using autoturrets, instead of, say, marauders, which is why you didn't observe the effects you hoped for. However, blizzard has since fixed this, and PDDs no longer affect broodlords. [Video of Test]Unless I'm doing something wrong here, it appears that this no longer works. Ok... first part you say I tested it wrong and second part you say I'm(well therealdj) still right... In any case sucks that they'd nerf it, never used raven's PDD for blords, but still it allowed for creative usage of ravens which was good.
I said "In previous patches", I never said you did anything wrong. Just noting that the building-unit discrepancy existed once.
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Ravens are overrated by players who don't play Terran.
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On May 12 2011 17:04 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:09 TheRealDJ wrote:
Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch? Mm just tried it out in unit tester and got same results. I guess it has been nerfed Getting a bit fed up with all these nerfs, having to play the game exactly after Blizzard's transcript.
Same here...seems like Blizzard just loves hitting terrans with the nerf stick...
No idea why PDD wouldn't work on broodlings, if they can hit a spike from a hydralisk in mid air, why couldn't they hit a broodling?
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PDD is intended to negate the entire attack, hence missile attacks don't even reach their target.
If I've read correctly, PDD only blocked the spawn but the missile still dealt damage, which doesnt make sense based on previous examples of PDD blocking attacks.
Also the broodling should be a unit, not a projectile upon spawning.
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On May 13 2011 02:24 TheRealDJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:04 Zarahtra wrote:On May 12 2011 16:09 TheRealDJ wrote:
Just tried this out today and my pdd didn't use any energy or shoot down broodlings, is this still working after the patch? Mm just tried it out in unit tester and got same results. I guess it has been nerfed Getting a bit fed up with all these nerfs, having to play the game exactly after Blizzard's transcript. Same here...seems like Blizzard just loves hitting terrans with the nerf stick... No idea why PDD wouldn't work on broodlings, if they can hit a spike from a hydralisk in mid air, why couldn't they hit a broodling?
While I do not feel there is much point in trying to make "sense" of how the PDD works, you could consider that the Broodling is a 30hp unit, and the spike from a Hydralisk is... well, a spike.
If the PDD does 30 damage/shot, I think I'd prefer it to be zapping units, not projectiles.
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off topic. but how many snipes does it take to kill a broodlord? also, shame to here this no longer works. really helpful with the overwhelming late game zerg armies.
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On May 12 2011 23:57 Techno wrote:
Ravens are overrated by players who don't play Terran.
lol, remember this post next time you read about Zergs not using enough overseers and mass contaminate.
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even though it doesn't work well you also have that raven for his muta in a mutalingbane composition..
Terran, use your freakin' spellcasters!
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On May 14 2011 07:27 CountBarq wrote:
even though it doesn't work well you also have that raven for his muta in a mutalingbane composition..
Terran, use your freakin' spellcasters!
We do. Ghosts are pretty good.
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On the latest Inside the Game, Idra, Incontrol and Painuser were asked about the Raven generally and with respect to TvZ (link below, the discussion starts around 1:12), Idra and Incontrol both seemed to agree that the Raven should be used more because of its ability to halt creep spread and to avoid burrowed banelings on big maps. So there's an argument that Ravens should be used more in TvZ even independent of its use against broodlords, so this only strengthens the argument.
http://www.onemoregame.tv/index.php/archive/in-the-game/item/110-itg-002.html
Plus, the additional minerals you bank from not having to use scans to kill creep can result in more marines and possibly faster expansions.
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Zurich15314 Posts
On May 14 2011 06:52 Joedaddy wrote:I just tested PDD vs Brood lords and it does not work. I'm assuming that blizzard hot fixed it? http://www.mediafire.com/?cwwg6gmsk7pccviReplay ^ pdd and brood lords come out close to 15 minutes.
Can someone please confirm this?
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On May 14 2011 10:33 zatic wrote:Can someone please confirm this?
Confirmed in the unit tester. And I updated liquipedia last patch after I tested it out and found that PDDs stopped broodlings from spawning. Guess I need to revert that change now... >_<
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Odd, not a single mention in the patch notes. My guess is they cleaned/changed some code whilst making the other fixed that incidentally changed the way in which PDD works with broodlings.
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Didn't know that, thanks!
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The Raven is the most cumbersome unit to use "more" there is. It's awesome but seriously flawed.
Going raven predominantly means a lot of waiting.
While you can warp in as many templars as you have warp gates when you build the archive, build as many ghosts as you have tech lab'ed barrack or build as many infestors as you have larva, you can only build one raven at a time unless you invest another hefty 150 gas for another tech lab'ed starport. The raven is super expensive on gas as is so you can't really afford to do that. So you got to wait for the to produce.
What makes this even worse is that the higher end spells cost so much energy that you have to either wait an eternity to use them or wait for the energy upgrade to finish before building your ravens one at a time. More waiting.
And anyways, upgrades. Energy upgrade, seeker missle, durable materials, high range auto tracking building armor, what the hell. More waiting. All while you're incredibly vulnerable to basically anything.
So then you sit around waiting for enough energy for seeker missles and PDDs, most of the time you end up having to use what little energy you've saved up on auto turrets just to stay alive. But really, you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.
And when you have your ravens with their upgrades and let them accumulate enough energy and this is when you discover that they are actually pretty slow and all their spells have a super short range and all this investment of time and gas is actually pretty risky to use.
I don't think we'll see people use more than 2 ravens very often. The commitment is just not comparable to other casters.
I am exaggerating a bit of course but I'm pretty sure neither Idra nor Incontrol have actually tried to use the raven much.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 14 2011 10:33 zatic wrote:Can someone please confirm this?
Confirmed. PDD no longer affects broodlords. I tested firing against units and buildings, and the PDD had no impact.
[Video of Test]
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Ravens are decent now, but since the patch change, nowhere near as useful late game. Especially compared to BW science vessels, for example.
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Ravens are still a pretty useless unit against Zerg IMO. I play Protoss but I feel that Hunter Seeker Missiles should have a speed increase of about 0.3, it would actually be a useful spell. Because as of right now, any Zerg attacking unit except the Hydralisk (which no one uses against Terran anyways) can outrun it easily.
Blocking a few BL shots is not worth the amount of gas and cut Medivacs.
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are you kidding me, i was just starting to use ravens against broodlords and had sick success with it come on blizzard!!!!!
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Getting a single raven for zerg is nice, but I couldn't imagine getting more than one. This is definitely a nice use for the energy your token raven can build up over the game. Just being able to drop down PDDs to stop a few token broodlings from causing your marines to get friendly fired is more worthwhile than autoturrets or HSM.
At first you would think HSM would be good against brood lords since they're the only unit that can't easily dodge HSMs, but it takes 3 HSMs to kill a broodlord, and since a max energy raven can only use one HSM you need 750 gas(3 ravens+HSM research) to kill a few broodlords, which is 10 vikings.
If they'd just increase the acceleration(not velocity) of the HSM it would go along way to making it useful. Everything that can evade it(basically every unit) now would still be able to, but he time in which you'd have to start running away would be alot less at least.
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Man...strike cannon fail, pdd fail, next thing you know we're gonna have our stim malfunction and just explode all our marines instead.
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why are they nerfing the raven so much when it's not even used that often?!?! For example the HSM nerf was completely unnecessary
Next they're going to nerf auto-turrets...
i also don't like how u can only cast 1 HSM per raven, that's just very strange to me...
just checked out science vessel in BW; now I know it's a different game but...
75 energy for 1 irradiate which has 9 range
wtf??
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On May 14 2011 17:57 PredY wrote:are you kidding me, i was just starting to use ravens against broodlords and had sick success with it come on blizzard!!!!!
I agree. I'm a Z player, but I still dislike that blizzard removed this aspect of the game, because it just adds another layer of strategy.
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updated op.
too bad Blizzard stealth removed this without any explanation.
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On May 14 2011 18:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
why are they nerfing the raven so much when it's not even used that often?!?! For example the HSM nerf was completely unnecessary
Next they're going to nerf auto-turrets...
i also don't like how u can only cast 1 HSM per raven, that's just very strange to me...
just checked out science vessel in BW; now I know it's a different game but...
75 energy for 1 irradiate which has 9 range
wtf??
Sadly, but days of BW are almost gone. And all we can do by now is just face with these blizzard jokes.
I think until the people, who are now responsible for balance, are not fully replaced with adequate ones, this game will continue degrade.
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Even though I play zerg I found PDD against broodlords to be a cool strat, why Blizzard?
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@Jimbo77
Well I think David Kim is capable, he is a GM Random player (ofc ladder doesn't show how good you are directly but it shows he is a "competent" player), and so far he and his balance team are making some pretty smart decisions, so I have some faith in them even in nerfing the Raven; I'd just like to know their reason for what may seem like unnecessary nerfs.
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On May 14 2011 18:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
@Jimbo77
Well I think David Kim is capable, he is a GM Random player (ofc ladder doesn't show how good you are directly but it shows he is a "competent" player),
I think if he wants he can even be №1 in GM and even higher. It's not so difficult for man who is at the other side of Bnet
I can agree with you that his team sometimes make really good decisions, but it's really not above 20% of all.
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Do you have a ladder link of Kims profile to verify this?
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I think Kim's ID is dayvie; Day[9]'s blip has some games from a blizzard in house tourney.
I am very sad about this change. I always felt smart getting a raven against broodlords... it was quit comical when the zerg player was unaware of this mechanic. PDD is still OK against muta (if you are forcing them to stand and fight). Maybe I will start getting more ravens for PDD to shutdown the rampant hydras in TvZ these days (joking of course :D).
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Sad.. it was cool, and I say this as zerg
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awww to bad, i really liked the change, as broodlings are something of the most annyoing things, and sadly seeker missile will never ever get even in execute rage of any army with a caster unit and blizzard encouraged to use casters with buffs. Guess the raven is the exception, though i really love him. only terran have the 150 energy skills, and then all 3 are easy to stop with range 9 casts >.< , while only 1 is above range 9.
Well guess vikings are supposed to beat broodlords ^^ and ghosts/tanks shall take care of infestors. which is of course the more skill needy variation of this.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 14 2011 18:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:i also don't like how u can only cast 1 HSM per raven, that's just very strange to me...
just checked out science vessel in BW; now I know it's a different game but...
75 energy for 1 irradiate which has 9 range
wtf??
BW was a different game. It was harder to tech to vessels, and harder to use several spellcasters at once, AND irradiate is a vastly different spell.
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couldnt u just get a bunch of vikings instead of ravens? I mean, i rather kill the problem than stall it.
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On May 15 2011 14:03 DreamRaider wrote:
couldnt u just get a bunch of vikings instead of ravens? I mean, i rather kill the problem than stall it.
Yes, but that not really the point. The point is that they are destroying diversity in the game even when it wasnt really causing problem. Like who used this? No one and yet they got rid of it. It could of been more interesting and made raven more useful cause as they are right now, they are pretty eh....
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On May 15 2011 14:26 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 14:03 DreamRaider wrote:
couldnt u just get a bunch of vikings instead of ravens? I mean, i rather kill the problem than stall it. Yes, but that not really the point. The point is that they are destroying diversity in the game even when it wasnt really causing problem. Like who used this? No one and yet they got rid of it. It could of been more interesting and made raven more useful cause as they are right now, they are pretty eh....
and what if you were maxed or didn't scout absolutley immediately, and still had additional starports and reactors for starports in production? within any thing to stall it's pretty much gg when the broodlords are out.
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On May 14 2011 12:07 eloist wrote:
The Raven is the most cumbersome unit to use "more" there is. It's awesome but seriously flawed.
Going raven predominantly means a lot of waiting.
While you can warp in as many templars as you have warp gates when you build the archive, build as many ghosts as you have tech lab'ed barrack or build as many infestors as you have larva, you can only build one raven at a time unless you invest another hefty 150 gas for another tech lab'ed starport. The raven is super expensive on gas as is so you can't really afford to do that. So you got to wait for the to produce.
What makes this even worse is that the higher end spells cost so much energy that you have to either wait an eternity to use them or wait for the energy upgrade to finish before building your ravens one at a time. More waiting.
And anyways, upgrades. Energy upgrade, seeker missle, durable materials, high range auto tracking building armor, what the hell. More waiting. All while you're incredibly vulnerable to basically anything.
So then you sit around waiting for enough energy for seeker missles and PDDs, most of the time you end up having to use what little energy you've saved up on auto turrets just to stay alive. But really, you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.
And when you have your ravens with their upgrades and let them accumulate enough energy and this is when you discover that they are actually pretty slow and all their spells have a super short range and all this investment of time and gas is actually pretty risky to use.
I don't think we'll see people use more than 2 ravens very often. The commitment is just not comparable to other casters.
I am exaggerating a bit of course but I'm pretty sure neither Idra nor Incontrol have actually tried to use the raven much.
I don't think it requires you to wait THAT long to produce. Also, you don't need to drop another Tech Lab - you can simply make a second Starport (which isn't a bad idea regardless) and swap with a Tech Lab Barracks, then swap back if you wish. Of course that's only a little bit of gas saved, but it does cut down on the time it would take to create a brand new Tech Lab.
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This is the saddest thing ever.
Now it doesn't work I can't use my mass marines end game (which probably is a good thing). Is PDD even worth it vs the corruptor cloud that hover around the droodelords?
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On May 15 2011 14:03 DreamRaider wrote:
couldnt u just get a bunch of vikings instead of ravens? I mean, i rather kill the problem than stall it.
It takes MANY vikings to eliminate broods before they force an unsiege and as soon as you unsiege you die to ling/bling.
With PDD you were able to stay sieged and deal with broods.
Edit:
I also don't get the call to buff the speed or acceleration of the seeker missile. The most detrimental factor by far is the abysmal casting range, followed by the friendly fire splash that prevents it's use against meelee units (which are actually good targets because you can kill them with one missile and they tend to clump).
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I always thought the fact that the killed broodlings still did impact damage was the bug and not the PDD killing them. It's a shame they stopped it, it wasn't like it was impossible to deal with it as Zerg and it wasn't in any noticable way imbalanced in favour of the Terrans so I don't agree with this change. In short, another Zerg just chiming in to say I'm not in favour of that change.
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On May 14 2011 18:42 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 18:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
why are they nerfing the raven so much when it's not even used that often?!?! For example the HSM nerf was completely unnecessary
Next they're going to nerf auto-turrets...
i also don't like how u can only cast 1 HSM per raven, that's just very strange to me...
just checked out science vessel in BW; now I know it's a different game but...
75 energy for 1 irradiate which has 9 range
wtf?? Sadly, but days of BW are almost gone. And all we can do by now is just face with these blizzard jokes. I think until the people, who are now responsible for balance, are not fully replaced with adequate ones, this game will continue degrade.
Ravens are used more offten then you would think, especially in ZvT. usually to spot burrowed baneling bombs, roaches or infestors. But i have seen terrans lock down expansions with autoturrets (2 min duration!?) and destory half a zerg army with one HSM. The raven is a great unit and should be used more in all matchups imo
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Could you please link a VOD of a pro game match where a terran destroyed "half a zerg army with one HSM"?
If you get a raven you get one, because it's the only mobile detection terran has and it will recoup it's hefty price through saving scans. They are used less than overseers.
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first they remove archon toilet then viking flower and now this come on blizzard why u have to remove every cool thing from game
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Why would this be removed ? doesn't make any sence.
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On May 14 2011 07:27 CountBarq wrote:
even though it doesn't work well you also have that raven for his muta in a mutalingbane composition..
Terran, use your freakin' spellcasters!
We do. There is this one spell on the siege tank that makes your enemy's ground army
Magically disappear.
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The removal of PDD's uses against Broodlings is really unfortunate. I really feel a raven buff is needed for the struggeling lategame Terran army. Basically terrans are only winning late because of superior early to mid game economy or harassment, I feel terrans really need some tech that's worth aiming for other than current trend of just being able to mass so much shit your opponent dies. And I felt the raven was the best unit to look at, also one of the units I hope recieve a completely remake in HotS.
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Eventhough I feel it was a bit redundant to remove the broodlings to get shot down by the PDD, I feel like that more terran players should try add the raven into their builds late game. I watched many of the gsl games and only seen ravens like once or twice, and that was TvT too spot banshees mainly. PDD is still great against mutas even autoturrets are truely great against them. A PDD could aid your vikings to snipe some brood lords (cancelling the mutas/(hydras?) shots).
Besides HSM is pretty much useless since it is the slowest spell, could perhaps be used against siege tanks or workers, but other than that HSM is just a waste of money. It could really use a speed buff.
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On May 28 2011 08:21 Elldar wrote:
Eventhough I feel it was a bit redundant to remove the broodlings to get shot down by the PDD, I feel like that more terran players should try add the raven into their builds late game. I watched many of the gsl games and only seen ravens like once or twice, and that was TvT too spot banshees mainly. PDD is still great against mutas even autoturrets are truely great against them. A PDD could aid your vikings to snipe some brood lords (cancelling the mutas/(hydras?) shots).
Besides HSM is pretty much useless since it is the slowest spell, could perhaps be used against siege tanks or workers, but other than that HSM is just a waste of money. It could really use a speed buff.
HSM
1. Cost alot of mana
2. Carries TONS of risk (range 6)
3. Isn't likely to get a hit off
4. PDD is so good
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Ravens should be used late game yes I agree. But my problems is, all terrans splash damage actually hurts terrans too.
Colossus splash doesnt hurt protoss, banelings dont hurt zerg, ultras dont hurt zerg, archons dont hurt protoss. Yet ravens HSM hurt terran, ghosts EMP drain terran energy, and tanks splash hurts terran. If HSM didnt do friendly fire, I would seriously consider using them more. but you dont want to fire a HSM at an army of zerg for it to only blow your own units up because every unit in the game can outrun a HSM.(except queens off creep :p)
so if Ravens were 150/150 cost, and HSM didnt do friendly fire, I would definatly get them more often. and I would get more of them
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5. You can make 2.5 Turrets instead
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On May 28 2011 08:54 NuclearStar wrote:
Ravens should be used late game yes I agree. But my problems is, all terrans splash damage actually hurts terrans too.
Colossus splash doesnt hurt protoss, banelings dont hurt zerg, ultras dont hurt zerg, archons dont hurt protoss. Yet ravens HSM hurt terran, ghosts EMP drain terran energy, and tanks splash hurts terran. If HSM didnt do friendly fire, I would seriously consider using them more. but you dont want to fire a HSM at an army of zerg for it to only blow your own units up because every unit in the game can outrun a HSM.(except queens off creep :p)
so if Ravens were 150/150 cost, and HSM didnt do friendly fire, I would definatly get them more often. and I would get more of them
Ravens are likely to die when they HSM
1 they get too close
2 they die to HSM themselves
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On May 28 2011 08:39 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 08:21 Elldar wrote:
Eventhough I feel it was a bit redundant to remove the broodlings to get shot down by the PDD, I feel like that more terran players should try add the raven into their builds late game. I watched many of the gsl games and only seen ravens like once or twice, and that was TvT too spot banshees mainly. PDD is still great against mutas even autoturrets are truely great against them. A PDD could aid your vikings to snipe some brood lords (cancelling the mutas/(hydras?) shots).
Besides HSM is pretty much useless since it is the slowest spell, could perhaps be used against siege tanks or workers, but other than that HSM is just a waste of money. It could really use a speed buff. HSM 1. Cost alot of mana 2. Carries TONS of risk (range 6) 3. Isn't likely to get a hit off 4. PDD is so good
Ya I pretty much agree with this. Really I think HSM just needs a buff... most likely a speed buff. I remember seeing some pro use one in a competitive game once, and I was actually completely amazed at how slow it was moving. To this day I still think it was a bug that it was traveling THAT slowly... but regardless they seem to travel far too slowly in general to be useful. They are typically useless against any units that are faster than them, and I have actually seen HSMs used against the terran... after they target a unit that is too fast, that unit is sent into the terran army to blow up. It can even happen with slower units, but more than likely it just ends up being a huge use of energy from a gas heavy unit that hits one or maybe a few of the opponents units... it's just not worth it.
As for PDD being good, I completely agree that it leads to less use of HSM but if the HSM becomes strong enough, it can be used just like NP for infestors is still used on occasion despite FG being so good.
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On May 28 2011 08:57 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 08:39 Blasterion wrote:On May 28 2011 08:21 Elldar wrote:
Eventhough I feel it was a bit redundant to remove the broodlings to get shot down by the PDD, I feel like that more terran players should try add the raven into their builds late game. I watched many of the gsl games and only seen ravens like once or twice, and that was TvT too spot banshees mainly. PDD is still great against mutas even autoturrets are truely great against them. A PDD could aid your vikings to snipe some brood lords (cancelling the mutas/(hydras?) shots).
Besides HSM is pretty much useless since it is the slowest spell, could perhaps be used against siege tanks or workers, but other than that HSM is just a waste of money. It could really use a speed buff. HSM 1. Cost alot of mana 2. Carries TONS of risk (range 6) 3. Isn't likely to get a hit off 4. PDD is so good Ya I pretty much agree with this. Really I think HSM just needs a buff... most likely a speed buff. I remember seeing some pro use one in a competitive game once, and I was actually completely amazed at how slow it was moving. To this day I still think it was a bug that it was traveling THAT slowly... but regardless they seem to travel far too slowly in general to be useful. They are typically useless against any units that are faster than them, and I have actually seen HSMs used against the terran... after they target a unit that is too fast, that unit is sent into the terran army to blow up. It can even happen with slower units, but more than likely it just ends up being a huge use of energy from a gas heavy unit that hits one or maybe a few of the opponents units... it's just not worth it. As for PDD being good, I completely agree that it leads to less use of HSM but if the HSM becomes strong enough, it can be used just like NP for infestors is still used on occasion despite FG being so good.
it's like a herding dog type of tool
HSM is just too risky, range 6 is asking your raven to get sniped
Ravens have 1 range but is still fragile
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AFter the ninja PDD nerf vs broodlords...ravens are never worth it anymore. Ghosts+nukes are 10x better, and HSM is a gamble. sighs.
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On May 28 2011 09:18 avilo wrote:
AFter the ninja PDD nerf vs broodlords...ravens are never worth it anymore. Ghosts+nukes are 10x better, and HSM is a gamble. sighs.
Eh not every unit needs to be useful in every MU but still Raven is a little underused save for PDD
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Blizzard you never cease to disappoint me... why nerf ravens? why?
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Blizzard ლ(ಠ益ಠლ Why you no like Ravens.
Sigh......... They didn't even give it a chance. BL infestor is so gay, and really this was my shinning ray of hope T_T.
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EPT
