|
Here's the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154610-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
I send my drone scout out to my opponent's base while I'm preparing my 14pool/14gas opening. He doesn't have gas, or anything really up, so I'm thinking, okay proxy gateway. I hide my scout in the corner of his base (as I almost always do) and continue about my business.
He ends up cannon rushing me. I decide that I'm going to go Roach/Zergling when a brilliant idea pops into my head. Why not Nydus Worm him? If he's cannon rushing me, then he's not building anything and not really macroing up. I build the Nydus Worm and start pumping Zerglings for the attack. Nydus Worm finishes, and I proceed to open the other end and send Zerglings into his base. He shortly GGs afterwards.
When I usually face a cannon rush, I'll go Mutas. The map makes it difficult for me to take what would be my 3rd with the choke point being so close to my natural (where he cannon rushed me), so I was preparing to go Nydus Worm from a Drone drop. I realize that I would need to wait for Overlord speed and carrying, but I was prepping to go one-base Zerg until I could get to his base. My thoughts were that he would keep trying to fill my expansion and natural with cannons, so there would not be anything really in his base. I forgot about the drone I hid there, so that's why I shifted to ending the game quicker.
My discussion points are:
1. Has anyone has any really successful Nydus Worm strategies that work consistently against a particular build?
2. Is there a more efficient method of dealing with cannon rush?
|
|
|
United States15275 Posts
Stopping it is kinda effective.
|
Nydus worms are a great way to beat the cannon rush but the problem with it is still an All In just like most cannon rush builds. I believe someone suggested spamming only zerglings in their base and working up to nydus while using tumors to stop the failrush from spreading and building a extra queen or two then. Then having a few crawlers to mitigate most of the damage that could ensue would be dandy.
|
As a zerg I've been losing to protoss a lot lately, but I've found there's one counter tactic that has 95+% chance of working.
When a Protoss fast expands, and I don't mean 3 gate expand but rather a forge expand or 1 gate or something really greedy, there's a very wide timing window to kill him with nydus.
I immediately get my own natural and pump drones up to 30-40, while getting 3 gas and teching to lair and hydras. Once I have 5-6 hydras out, I build a nydus worm in my base. There's no way he has enough pylons to watch the edges of his main base to spot the nydus exit, because all his building are making a wall at his natural. He also cannot have colossi or enough of an army to counter constant hydra and ling production. Just rally your army to the nydus entrance and hotkey the mouth and keep spamming unload. The only thing to watch out for is his sniping the worm. You might want to build 2 rather than rely on one.
I also do this vs. cannon rushes, but that's way more risky and predictable, because there might be an army waiting.
I'm 2900 diamond at the moment.
|
On March 27 2011 06:17 Humbuuzio wrote:
As a zerg I've been losing to protoss a lot lately, but I've found there's one counter tactic that has 95+% chance of working.
When a Protoss fast expands, and I don't mean 3 gate expand but rather a forge expand or 1 gate or something really greedy, there's a very wide timing window to kill him with nydus.
I immediately get my own natural and pump drones up to 30-40, while getting 3 gas and teching to lair and hydras. Once I have 5-6 hydras out, I build a nydus worm in my base. There's no way he has enough pylons to watch the edges of his main base to spot the nydus exit, because all his building are making a wall at his natural. He also cannot have colossi or enough of an army to counter constant hydra and ling production. Just rally your army to the nydus entrance and hotkey the mouth and keep spamming unload. The only thing to watch out for is his sniping the worm. You might want to build 2 rather than rely on one.
I also do this vs. cannon rushes, but that's way more risky and predictable, because there might be an army waiting.
I'm 2900 diamond at the moment.
any decent protoss will have stuff watching the edges of his base
|
On March 27 2011 06:17 Humbuuzio wrote:
As a zerg I've been losing to protoss a lot lately, but I've found there's one counter tactic that has 95+% chance of working.
When a Protoss fast expands, and I don't mean 3 gate expand but rather a forge expand or 1 gate or something really greedy, there's a very wide timing window to kill him with nydus.
I immediately get my own natural and pump drones up to 30-40, while getting 3 gas and teching to lair and hydras. Once I have 5-6 hydras out, I build a nydus worm in my base. There's no way he has enough pylons to watch the edges of his main base to spot the nydus exit, because all his building are making a wall at his natural. He also cannot have colossi or enough of an army to counter constant hydra and ling production. Just rally your army to the nydus entrance and hotkey the mouth and keep spamming unload. The only thing to watch out for is his sniping the worm. You might want to build 2 rather than rely on one.
I also do this vs. cannon rushes, but that's way more risky and predictable, because there might be an army waiting.
I'm 2900 diamond at the moment.
you can deny the nydus easily with 1-2 patrolling probes and a solid wall at your front
|
I've only done this once but it has worked marvelously. He managed to contain me inside my main with 4 cannons on the low ground and a couple on the edge of the high ground but he couldnt get any closer with cannons because of the 2 spines I put up.
I immediately took both gases, put down a roach warren and upgraded to lair. Already had an ovie in the back of his base so I popped the nydus there and started streaming lings and roaches into his base and took out the pylons powering his warpgates along with all his probes while he tries to push in main with 4 stalkers and a sentry against 3 spines a queen and a bunch of lings. Doesn't even gg on his way out :D
|
On March 27 2011 06:26 lGy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 06:17 Humbuuzio wrote:
As a zerg I've been losing to protoss a lot lately, but I've found there's one counter tactic that has 95+% chance of working.
When a Protoss fast expands, and I don't mean 3 gate expand but rather a forge expand or 1 gate or something really greedy, there's a very wide timing window to kill him with nydus.
I immediately get my own natural and pump drones up to 30-40, while getting 3 gas and teching to lair and hydras. Once I have 5-6 hydras out, I build a nydus worm in my base. There's no way he has enough pylons to watch the edges of his main base to spot the nydus exit, because all his building are making a wall at his natural. He also cannot have colossi or enough of an army to counter constant hydra and ling production. Just rally your army to the nydus entrance and hotkey the mouth and keep spamming unload. The only thing to watch out for is his sniping the worm. You might want to build 2 rather than rely on one.
I also do this vs. cannon rushes, but that's way more risky and predictable, because there might be an army waiting.
I'm 2900 diamond at the moment. you can deny the nydus easily with 1-2 patrolling probes and a solid wall at your front
Yes, you can deny the nydus with patrolling probes easily. However, I've never seen anyone do it against me. I'm sure high master will be able to deal with my nydus attack, but at high diamond / low masters almost no-one has survived my nydus attack.
And decent protosses have stuff watching the edges, but if they fast expand they don't have it in time. The pylons and other buildings are at the natural, walling off. There will be at least one place that you can nydus.
|
Nydus is good against contains. Just remember that you don't have to place nyduses in your opponent's base or anything. You can just use it to attack them directly. Also, don't be afraid to run back to defend your base if it doesn't go as planned.
|
my standard against cannon contain is rushing to hydras and nydus. i dont even try to get it in his base... near his natural will work fine and its very hard for the toss to have anything that can beat hydras that soon after investing in the cannons and whatnot
|
On March 27 2011 06:42 Humbuuzio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 06:26 lGy wrote:On March 27 2011 06:17 Humbuuzio wrote:
As a zerg I've been losing to protoss a lot lately, but I've found there's one counter tactic that has 95+% chance of working.
When a Protoss fast expands, and I don't mean 3 gate expand but rather a forge expand or 1 gate or something really greedy, there's a very wide timing window to kill him with nydus.
I immediately get my own natural and pump drones up to 30-40, while getting 3 gas and teching to lair and hydras. Once I have 5-6 hydras out, I build a nydus worm in my base. There's no way he has enough pylons to watch the edges of his main base to spot the nydus exit, because all his building are making a wall at his natural. He also cannot have colossi or enough of an army to counter constant hydra and ling production. Just rally your army to the nydus entrance and hotkey the mouth and keep spamming unload. The only thing to watch out for is his sniping the worm. You might want to build 2 rather than rely on one.
I also do this vs. cannon rushes, but that's way more risky and predictable, because there might be an army waiting.
I'm 2900 diamond at the moment. you can deny the nydus easily with 1-2 patrolling probes and a solid wall at your front Yes, you can deny the nydus with patrolling probes easily. However, I've never seen anyone do it against me. I'm sure high master will be able to deal with my nydus attack, but at high diamond / low masters almost no-one has survived my nydus attack. And decent protosses have stuff watching the edges, but if they fast expand they don't have it in time. The pylons and other buildings are at the natural, walling off. There will be at least one place that you can nydus.
Any decent diamond protoss, after denying a Zerg expand will know that the only way he can lose is by a roach allin or some kind of nydus.
I always place pylons near the edge of my base cuz there's not much reason not to, and I send in a probe scout to check if they take their expo and also check lair timing.
Quick lair or quick roach warren usually means all-in. If you're teching to hydra AND going nydus without the Protoss scouting it, I doubt you're high diamond.
|
Unfortunatly all the protoss I´ve been encountering lately have followed a cannon rush up with phoenix/void rays, which make them pretty damn hard to break.
|
300 gas. Oh frickin' no. That's sooo expensive. FYI:
10 sentries = 1000 gas. The first upgraded colossus = 700 gas. That doesn't stop them from kicking zerg ass.
No one said that you HAVE to Nydus the enemy base. The real benefit of the nydus here is:
A) You don't have to sac units breaking the Cannon contain. All his minerals are pretty much wasted, and you can put all your resources to a lethal counter attack.
B) You can still expand, using the Nydus Network to move your forces around.
Also, the zerg player had twice the APM of the protoss. Sometimes 40APM is gooood.
|
If i do play as a zerg, best way to stop cannon rush is pulling out 5 drones and kill probe 1st then leave pylon and go kill it when i have enough zlings (around like 10) but lately i've seen some cannon rush which following up with zealots which makes it quite more effective and you just can't do something against it...which sucks...
But yeah, if toss don't know how to do his cannon rush you can nydus him easly and he would GG.
|
My response to any sort of forge first build is the same, nydus queen/hydra. Basically, if you find you're cannon contained/cannon denied natural, immediately tech to lair, take your second gas and put down an extra hatch (In base, yuck). Continue queen production until you have 4, maybe 5 queens, and pump hydra as you start your nydus. Then it's just deciding where to put it. If your scouting overlord can see a safe spot in their base, you can try for that, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're sure they're incompetent.
If they've expanded, then I usually place it somewhere reasonably safe but within one creep tumor's distance from their cannons. (Nydus creep spread + Queen tumor). This gives you enough times to dump your queens out of the canal, and start spreading creep/setting up a concave before their frantic scouting discovers you. From there, it's just a case of sending your queens first against any cannons, transfusing queens and hydras, you can even take along a couple of drones and start up a few crawlers.
If they haven't taken their natural, then they're going for some sort of silly one base void/collosus/DT build. In any case, one overseer is plenty, you probably used this to place the nydus in the first place. If they're going one base collosus, your queens are excellent tanks, and if they actually get their 1 or 2 collo's in range to hit your hydras, your queens should mince them anyway, as their gateway forces should be little to none. If their ramp is too well defended, then just take their natural, and keep an eye on your main, sending whatever forces you need to hold back through your nydus, and be a happy 2 base zerg vs 1 base protoss.
I do this against FFE as well, though not as often, as I prefer roach/infestor or ling/hydra pushes to tackle that. I have a couple of replays, but I don't honestly think any of the protoss' that I've had to use this against have been amazingly skilled players. I'll chuck them up if anyone's interested.
|
|
|
I was watching Cella on his live stream maybe 2 months ago..and the same matchup maybe 5 times in an hour or two, Z v P on shakuras
On Shakuras Plateau when the toss cannoned his natural he would use his scouting drone to build the hatch in the toss' main (which you have to remember is huge on this map), immediately drop a roach warren
then gets some roaches running around in the toss main, he was either being cute or smart by getting a queen in there as well for larvae/transfuse on the roaches if he needed it
It's quite map specific, but most toss will forge or 1 gate expand on this map anyway, and the protoss only once scouted the hatch, I guess they weren't expecting it :/
|
you're better off just scouting & stopping it.
2nd overlord should always be checking around your base for cannon rush spots.
And if you scout nothing in-base you should immediately know there's a proxy somewhere, and go find it.
Against proxy strategies, as soon as you have enough defense at home (usually a spine crawler + queen), you should be trying to get zerglings into the opponents base, since he won't have anything there.
|
On March 27 2011 05:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Stopping it is kinda effective.
Didnt think of this ^^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
