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Hi TL,
This is a little trick/unit-comp I recently discovered that can make thors actually cost-effective against blords. It is NOT micro-intensive and about as easy as magic box to execute.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/H8I3W.png)
Essentially what you do is order a small group of blue flame hellions to follow your thors so broodlings get 2 shotted. Remember that hellions use an AOE HITSCAN weapon so they will never over kill broodlings. The main source of damage from blords come from broodlings, not broodlords. By insta-roasting the broodlings, you will reduce blord damage by almost 50% and your thors AI won't get screwed up trying to target the broodlings as they get roasted so quickly, of course it never hurts to target fire the blords. Best of all, this means you only need ONE set of mech upgrades. Thors out range blords, so blords will never be able to kite thors.
Tests:
5 Blords cost 1500/1250. 5Thors + 4 Hellions cost (1900/1000). IE Terran's composition costs 400 more minerals but 250 less gas, which IMO is more than a fair trade late game.
BEFORE any upgrades (Both Terran/Zerg). 0/0 mech upgrades versus 0/0/0, 0/0 zerg.
5Thors + 4 Hellions beats 5 Blords with 2 thors left over, with low HP.
Without the hellions, 3 Blords will survive.
However, late game zerg rarely gets air armor. So the typical late game scenario would look something like: 3/3 Thors against 3/0/3, 2/0 Zerg.
5Thors + 4 Hellions beats 5 Blords with 3-4 thors left over with more than half HP.
Without the Hellions, you will have 1 thor left with about 50 hp.
Late-game this trick will roflstomp blords. Not - saying that you won't need vikings, Vikings will ALWAYS help, but this "trick" will just give your thors more viability should you be caught off-guard.
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Excellent find, great tip
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I always liked that pros used hellions to kill the broodlings quickly, but using the move command sounds so simple, but ingenious.
Will try definetly. Thanks Griffith!
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This is good stuff to know. I've already been doing with this to deal mass speedlings, but I never thought it could work with Brood Lords as well. It does seem very upgrade dependent however, so gotta make sure you stay ahead.
My main problem with this is that Zerg will rarely attack with Brood Lords on their own. Brood Lord/Roach/Ling or Brood Lord/Muta/Ling make this much, much harder to pull off. It's good to know, but I'd rather just get the vikings and deal with the Brood Lords in a much more simplistic manner.
That being said, this could be useful in niche situations. Will keep it in mind.
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Sounds pretty interesting.
Replays, though?
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very interesting idea. maybe this is the solution to the dreaded bl into ultra tech switch that is killing so many terrans....
imho thors are better against ultras than tanks... you just need some tanks with your mech army to snipe infestors and to deal with mass mass roaches...
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Yo, umm do you just box the hellions and right click the Thors? Is there some kind of way to "Attack-follow" the thors?
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On March 27 2011 02:57 SecretA5DC wrote:
Yo, umm do you just box the hellions and right click the Thors? Is there some kind of way to "Attack-follow" the thors?
just rightclick the hellions on the thors, they will follow them and mimic all the orders you give the thors. if you a-move the thors then, the hellions will follow their respective thor using the "a-move-routine".
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wow did not know that. thanks
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On March 27 2011 03:07 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 02:57 SecretA5DC wrote:
Yo, umm do you just box the hellions and right click the Thors? Is there some kind of way to "Attack-follow" the thors? just rightclick the hellions on the thors, they will follow them and mimic all the orders you give the thors. if you a-move the thors then, the hellions will follow their respective thor using the "a-move-routine".
I'm pretty sure there are lots of people that didn't know that about the follow command...I know i didn't. Are you sure they mimic the exact orders?
I think in a beta game ages ago meh buddy deth was vs artosis, he had lots of hellions+thors and managed to kill a ton more brood lords than you'd think were possible. Pretty much exactly as this thread describes  nice thread
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Thought this was common knowledge, I do the same thing with stalkers and colossi... Works wonders.
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Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
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On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Obvious troll is failing.
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On March 27 2011 06:00 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Obvious troll is failing.
lol true, but it does get rather obnoxious tying your name to everything you do thinking is revolutionary and new and game changing...
<3 go get 3700 dude.
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Hey I just saw 6 ~ 7 blords owning like 10 tanks and 3 thors in TSL nestea vs goody match
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On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Griffith's™ hater should just be quiet and leave.
OT: I've been doing this sort of thing to minimize Broodlord damage for a long time, but I hadn't thought of just moving to the Thors. Good idea, I'll definitely be using this.
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On March 27 2011 06:00 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Obvious troll is failing.
This is actually a fairly arrogant thing to do (or looks that way). Do you think Schrödinger was the one who presented his findings as the "Schrödinger equation"?
+ Show Spoiler +He probably didn't. I don't actually know. Nice trick.
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This, along with all of griffith's other posts/ideas, why isn't he highlighted yet?
Thanks a lot, yet another trick to use, as I'm constantly surprised by broods.
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I still think the Kashll mass viking strategy is a more effective counter.
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On March 27 2011 07:20 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Griffith's™ hater should just be quiet and leave. OT: I've been doing this sort of thing to minimize Broodlord damage for a long time, but I hadn't thought of just moving to the Thors. Good idea, I'll definitely be using this.
Don't you think it's a tad too much that he tries to tag his name onto everything he "discovers"?
Especially something as simple as telling one unit to follow another. You didn't see the guy who found out how to make viking flowers again try and slather his name all over it.
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Blue flame helions following thors to protect against zerglings/broodlings.
Not sure what is new here.
And how do you deal with bannelings once the broodlords have forced to unsiege the tanks ?
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On March 26 2011 23:56 Griffith` wrote:Hi TL, This is a little trick/unit-comp I recently discovered that can make thors actually cost-effective against blords. It is NOT micro-intensive and about as easy as magic box to execute. Essentially what you do is order a small group of blue flame hellions to follow your thors so broodlings get 2 shotted. Remember that hellions use an AOE HITSCAN weapon so they will never over kill broodlings. The main source of damage from blords come from broodlings, not broodlords. By insta-roasting the broodlings, you will reduce blord damage by almost 50% and your thors AI won't get screwed up trying to target the broodlings as they get roasted so quickly, of course it never hurts to target fire the blords. Best of all, this means you only need ONE set of mech upgrades. Thors out range blords, so blords will never be able to kite thors. Tests: 5 Blords cost 1500/1250. 5Thors + 4 Hellions cost (1900/1000). IE Terran's composition costs 400 more minerals but 250 less gas, which IMO is more than a fair trade late game. BEFORE any upgrades (Both Terran/Zerg). 0/0 mech upgrades versus 0/0/0, 0/0 zerg. 5Thors + 4 Hellions beats 5 Blords with 2 thors left over, with low HP. Without the hellions, 3 Blords will survive. However, late game zerg rarely gets air armor. So the typical late game scenario would look something like: 3/3 Thors against 3/0/3, 2/0 Zerg. 5Thors + 4 Hellions beats 5 Blords with 3-4 thors left over with more than half HP. Without the Hellions, you will have 1 thor left with about 50 hp. Late-game this trick will roflstomp blords. Not - saying that you won't need vikings, Vikings will ALWAYS help, but this "trick" will just give your thors more viability should you be caught off-guard.
this only seems work only vs brood + no ground army.
how are u going to deal with mass roaches + few broodlord ?
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I don't remember the last time I saw Broodlords used in ZvT, this is some good info though, thanks.
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This is something that I've known for a while now, I'm kinda surprised more people didn't know about it. It works even better when you throw a few SCV's into the mix to repair the thors and hellions.
It seems like a lot of people undervalue the thors AA capability. Sure the damage isn't great, but 10 range + splash can make up for it. Another thing that a lot of people forget is repair. 1 thor + 8 or so scv's will beat 2 void rays. (although I don't know how much money is spent in the repair process)
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You really should stop naming stuff after yourself. And even without this, a blue flame bath works pretty good. Additionally its helpful if you use the hellions to push forward so the the broodlords will start throwing at them. :\ Keeps infestors/lings/ultras and stuff away as well (wall of light units FTW).
How well does Thor/Hellion actually work on something like Tal Darim? I would imagine it gets crushed by a mass ultra late game since it the map is not funnelly.
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It's funny how non-contributing TL-ers tends to come out of nowhere and start burning a guy who's successive posts have actually brought something new to the community. Just say thank you and stfu.
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On March 27 2011 09:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You really should stop naming stuff after yourself. And even without this, a blue flame bath works pretty good. Additionally its helpful if you use the hellions to push forward so the the broodlords will start throwing at them. :\ Keeps infestors/lings/ultras and stuff away as well (wall of light units FTW).
How well does Thor/Hellion actually work on something like Tal Darim? I would imagine it gets crushed by a mass ultra late game since it the map is not funnelly.
Nice one 
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On topic, I think it would acutally always be really smart to always keep your hellions behind your thor's as soon as broods are out. Tanks clean up any ranged unit, hellion protect tanking thors with BF and thors clean up broods. Sounds good ^^
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sorry i've given you a tough time, i remember seeing something like this before, but i didn't think to just follow with the BF hellions.
Griffith's Hellion/Thor magic box ™
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On March 27 2011 07:39 Spacekyod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 07:20 The Final Boss wrote:On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Griffith's™ hater should just be quiet and leave. OT: I've been doing this sort of thing to minimize Broodlord damage for a long time, but I hadn't thought of just moving to the Thors. Good idea, I'll definitely be using this. Don't you think it's a tad too much that he tries to tag his name onto everything he "discovers"? Especially something as simple as telling one unit to follow another. You didn't see the guy who found out how to make viking flowers again try and slather his name all over it.
Who cares? he comes up with useful tricks and strats and shares them with us. I couldnt care less about the name he gives it. Btw it is pretty normal to give your nick to the strat you invented(synystyr iEchoic stimmed probe etc.)
edit: wasnt there a progamer mentioned on the sotg whoo did your 4OC build, saying it was never done before???
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On March 27 2011 23:00 TheAwesomeAll wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 07:39 Spacekyod wrote:On March 27 2011 07:20 The Final Boss wrote:On March 27 2011 04:12 Soulish wrote:
Would you have to use Griffith's™ 4 OC build to make this work? And Griffith's™ magic box to spread out the hellions so aoe damage becomes higher?
Griffith's™ hater should just be quiet and leave. OT: I've been doing this sort of thing to minimize Broodlord damage for a long time, but I hadn't thought of just moving to the Thors. Good idea, I'll definitely be using this. Don't you think it's a tad too much that he tries to tag his name onto everything he "discovers"? Especially something as simple as telling one unit to follow another. You didn't see the guy who found out how to make viking flowers again try and slather his name all over it. Who cares? he comes up with useful tricks and strats and shares them with us. I couldnt care less about the name he gives it. Btw it is pretty normal to give your nick to the strat you invented(synystyr iEchoic stimmed probe etc.) edit: wasnt there a progamer mentioned on the sotg whoo did your 4OC build, saying it was never done before???
At least he actually contributes.
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oh im so sure that if you made a strat that was brilliant and could be super usefulll, you would want to take some credit as well.
Im sure most people would name it after theirselves. So dont hate, because you know you would do the same. Right now Im working on a Zerg Strat, still in the testing phases, and when I get her perfect or close to it, im slappin a name on that sucker too. I have spent a month or longer fiddling aroudn with it or taking idea.
So far the name I have had for my Strat that I have used with my friends while refering to it. It kind has stuck, I named it one night when I was slightly under the influenece of a shit ton of beer. Some may find it offensive, i was just joking around when I named it this, but my friends have made it stick when refering to it....
A.I.D.S.
A- Ass kicking
I- Industructable
D- Desimating
S-Strat
if you can come up a better acronym for my Zerg AIDS Virus.
I am open for suggestions. IM still fiddleing around with the strat...... I only have a handfull of zerg practice partners, but every day Im fixing it, adding things and taking things away, it has about a 60% or so win average.
Basically its a tankless zerg strat.
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So, basically you're patenting the move command?
>.>
I don't see how this can be new to someone, there are similar tricks like this in ZvZ to make queens unkillable to zerglings and I don't make a thread about it called decaf's immortal queen..
I'm sure a lotta people appreciate your work but naming everything Griffith's whatever is kinda.. exaggerated
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Speaking of magic box, what's stopping a magic box of Mutas from killing all the thors?
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If your opponent has enough gas to support both, mutas AND broodlords, you did something wrong.
But keeping Marines near to your Helions+Thors would kill them instantly I guess.
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haters are always gonna be haters...
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On March 28 2011 00:07 Binabik wrote:
If your opponent has enough gas to support both, mutas AND broodlords, you did something wrong.
But keeping Marines near to your Helions+Thors would kill them instantly I guess.
I'm trying to say that Zerg should stick to roach muta in a situation like this.
If a Terran player gets Marines in their unit comp, that means they are practically taking away a good amount of Hellions, so then you can switch to brood lords again.
If a Zerg player lets a Terran player get enough minerals for a sufficient amount of Marines and Hellions along with Thors, then the Zerg player is doing something wrong.
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I just don't understand why people have to be negative. Why should it matter if he sticks his name on it? And sure it's a simple thing to do, but it was an idea that he presented. That's not something new to the world, I mean that's what people do. You come up with an idea, you get to name it. What's so wrong with that? Personally I'd prefer if he named it things like the Zerg AIDS Virus because that name makes me giggle, but hell, he can name it whatever he wants.
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On March 28 2011 01:13 The Final Boss wrote:
I just don't understand why people have to be negative. Why should it matter if he sticks his name on it? And sure it's a simple thing to do, but it was an idea that he presented. That's not something new to the world, I mean that's what people do. You come up with an idea, you get to name it. What's so wrong with that? Personally I'd prefer if he named it things like the Zerg AIDS Virus because that name makes me giggle, but hell, he can name it whatever he wants.
It's just obnoxious to name these techniques after yourself right away. It is presumptuous and narcistic. It's fine if a certain technique gets named after a player after a while by others, like Maynarding, but naming them like Griffith does is annoying.
Note that in most sciences it is quite rare for a discoverer to name something after themselves.. Other people do that later AFTER the use of the discovery has been established and usually years or decadeds after the discovery itself.
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I'm not convinced you didn't take supply cost into account which becomes more important that actual unit cost in the late game. Yeah it makes a difference without a doubt but replacing those 4 hellions with 8 marines would make a difference as well. It just seems to me like your hitting your head against a brick wall instead of just building vikings.
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Who cares about naming things, it's not like Griffith goes into other people's threads and blatantly tells Terrans to try out his "Trademark" Strat etc with his name all over it.
This is a great strat, and combined with the Raven PDD Tactic on the other thread, we might actually see more of those in action late game TvZ.
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On March 27 2011 03:07 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 02:57 SecretA5DC wrote:
Yo, umm do you just box the hellions and right click the Thors? Is there some kind of way to "Attack-follow" the thors? just rightclick the hellions on the thors, they will follow them and mimic all the orders you give the thors. if you a-move the thors then, the hellions will follow their respective thor using the "a-move-routine".
They don't mimic, but if you a move the thor, when it stops to fire so do the hellions, essentially meaning they will attack anything that comes in range as they are stopped.... its as good as a-moving them except they dont go running off on their own!
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On March 28 2011 01:19 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 01:13 The Final Boss wrote:
I just don't understand why people have to be negative. Why should it matter if he sticks his name on it? And sure it's a simple thing to do, but it was an idea that he presented. That's not something new to the world, I mean that's what people do. You come up with an idea, you get to name it. What's so wrong with that? Personally I'd prefer if he named it things like the Zerg AIDS Virus because that name makes me giggle, but hell, he can name it whatever he wants. It's just obnoxious to name these techniques after yourself right away. It is presumptuous and narcistic. It's fine if a certain technique gets named after a player after a while by others, like Maynarding, but naming them like Griffith does is annoying. Note that in most sciences it is quite rare for a discoverer to name something after themselves.. Other people do that later AFTER the use of the discovery has been established and usually years or decadeds after the discovery itself.
Everyone in this world who has ever accomplished anything was at the very least a little narcissistic. I really don't see any problem with it. Why does it honestly matter what it's called as long as it works? He's contributing more then you, and personally I see the world as a meritocracy; so by that logic he can call it whatever he wants as he has more merit then you.
It really shouldn't bother you, people just like to complain a lot about stuff that really doesn't affect them for the sake of complaining. If it really bothers you that much just ignore everything Griffith posts.
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On March 31 2011 06:02 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 01:19 Markwerf wrote:On March 28 2011 01:13 The Final Boss wrote:
I just don't understand why people have to be negative. Why should it matter if he sticks his name on it? And sure it's a simple thing to do, but it was an idea that he presented. That's not something new to the world, I mean that's what people do. You come up with an idea, you get to name it. What's so wrong with that? Personally I'd prefer if he named it things like the Zerg AIDS Virus because that name makes me giggle, but hell, he can name it whatever he wants. It's just obnoxious to name these techniques after yourself right away. It is presumptuous and narcistic. It's fine if a certain technique gets named after a player after a while by others, like Maynarding, but naming them like Griffith does is annoying. Note that in most sciences it is quite rare for a discoverer to name something after themselves.. Other people do that later AFTER the use of the discovery has been established and usually years or decadeds after the discovery itself. Everyone in this world who has ever accomplished anything was at the very least a little narcissistic. I really don't see any problem with it. Why does it honestly matter what it's called as long as it works? He's contributing more then you, and personally I see the world as a meritocracy; so by that logic he can call it whatever he wants as he has more merit then you. It really shouldn't bother you, people just like to complain a lot about stuff that really doesn't affect them for the sake of complaining. If it really bothers you that much just ignore everything Griffith posts.
Yes, everyone on earth is a little narcissistic, but every now and then someone is outrageously narcissistic. Everyone on earth can be a little rude, but occasionally there's a Snooki.
Since there is at least one new post every day called "XXX's XvX build," people on the forums are fed up with the self-naming.
That being said the OP is very nice; this hellion trick will keep the Thors safe against Broodlords until Infestors are out.
Seriously though, as others have mentioned Einstein didn't call it "Einstein's Theory of Relativity." Oh god... did I just compare Griffith to Einstein...?
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Would like to ask a question
What is the significance of having your Hellions follow your Thors rather than just controlling them separately?
Is it just for the convenience that the Hellions will do what your Thors do, and so you only need to control the Thors, and so that they're both synced up better? (So if you want to retreat the Thors, the Hellions automatically retreat).
Another benefit I can think of is that if you use 1 control group and attack the Broodlords with the Thors, the Hellions won't run forward and try to hit other ground units, but will instead stick with the Thors and attack the broodlings. But I don't use 1 control group anyways.
These are the only benefits I can think of, am I missing something or is that it?
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Yes Yoshi generally that is it, however be careful because if you have your hellions following your thors and he either fungals or baneling bombs you, it will wipe out your hellions and slings or broodlings with wreck the thors.
Therefore it is useful to have the hellions on another control group, hold them back and let the thors take the spread funalgs or banelings, and then send the hellions in, following the thors.
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Pretty much what Rebot said. I use that method personally....hellions are rallied to and follow the Thors, while I have them on a separate hotkey as well to micro them during an engagement so I do not lose them accidentally.
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You know, as a zerg player I've been thinking about this build. It has a lot of merit to it. It'd be nice if someone re explored it now that the ghost cost has been changed. As a Zerg I'd be more concerned by Hellion/Thor/Marine/Medivac/Ghost than MMTGViking
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Yeah, Ghost/Thor owns BLs much harder than Vikings, because the air battle is something completely different than what Mech is xD
I usually trickle in MM from the 2 rax i have since the start of the game, so it is easy to start pumping ghosts from those and go more hellion heavy and tone down the tank/thor if i need gas.
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EPT
