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I am just curious as to what is now the counter to Mass marauder viking Ghost in PvT?
Before patch I could hold my own against this with high templars. They were great for defending drops and could deal nice damage to the marauders if they didn't micro correctly. And even if they landed their emp I could warp in new templars in time to still hit the marauders.
When they have enough vikings collosus can become a liability. Easily snipeable and mass stalker against mass marauders always felt like suicide.
Immortal seems like the obvious choice, but at higher numbers I feel like EMP and stimmed marauders would be too much for them.
So what do you all think? I have not had any games against this yet as we only had the patch hit the EU servers literally 50 minutes ago, so no replays.
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I think you have to go phoenix against it. Zealots to absorb marauder damage and phoenixes to deal with the vikings. Did you watch Boxer vs Nightend from TSL?
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a better micro then the terran player, and get two less drones at every expansion and replace those with one high templar (they can save up energie you know). Before there was a planetary toss had the best base defense consisting out of a few canons and one high templar. While zerg and terrans had to work on their expansion defense there was no real need on it for a toss hehe.
Also with the emp nerf snipe is needed to fend of some high energy templar trying to feedback. But in general after the patch ghosts are finally a little better or only on par with a high templar. (while they cost 100 minerals more still hehe)
I played both sides and i always had it way easier with the hts. spread hts autofollowin different units of your army. Only need one click and not two in ghost vs templar wars. Could even mess up the emp storm war completly and still win after a short retreat warpin.
If you had your ghosts all feedbacked (well a toss needs a observer against cloaked sniping but with detection range 10 ... there is no blind spot) you had to run with your army back to your base so you had your ghosts again for the next and final try while a toss was warpin a pylon in near your base so he would have only a little retreat spot again.
So just saying it won't change much in the matchup just that tosses will have to play a little more careful, like the terrans already have to do ^^.
PS: retreat point of the toss would be now the hts still at the next expo with 2 storms ready.
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On March 23 2011 20:10 Markam wrote:
I think you have to go phoenix against it. Zealots to absorb marauder damage and phoenixes to deal with the vikings. Did you watch Boxer vs Nightend from TSL?
Actually it doesn't work if you go heavy vikings and just target the collosi. It just won't work in a straight up macro game if terran knows what he is doing. Boxer failed micro in second game thats why nightend won.
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Use High Templar? Khaydarian Amulet was removed from the game, not Storm or Feedback.
Drops are easily stopped by Stalkers and good scouting. Build observers. If they actually land a drop, Zealot/Stalker mixture works wonders. You don't need Warp in KA Templar to stop drops.
In the late game, if you're really worried about bigger "doom" drops, let energy build on a couple HT left at home. In Brood War, people often left 1-2 Templar per mining base at home pre-emptively to aid in defense (particularly vs Zerg, but this applies to Terran Bio in SC2 as well).
Vikings are a joke when Storm is in the picture. EMP was already dealt with pre-nerf, now it's even weaker. Use Observer to track enemy unit movement, split templar, cast Feedbacks and Storms. Easy.
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Just use colossi, stalker, sentry, zealot still.
Instead of getting HT quickly you can focus a bit more on forge upgrades instead. Attack and armor ups are both pretty good for this unit combination and you can force colossi to work despite T making vikings. Just get blink eventually and focus the vikings.
Later on HT are still a fine addition, without amulet you are also investing less to get them. Just don't rely on them completely for your AoE anymore but mix them with colossi now. Lategame protoss was a bit imbalanced, the nerf was just to even the playing field a bit. HT are still quite good, just don't prioritize them.
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On March 23 2011 20:22 FeyFey wrote:
one high templar (they can save up energie you know). Before there was a planetary toss had the best base defense consisting out of a few canons and one high templar. While zerg and terrans had to work on their expansion defense there was no real need on it for a toss hehe.
are you trolling ?
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who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight.
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HT is like after you get all those for the extra oomph..since they are so damn good at base defense, even after the nerf. Just warp in a few at each base and they'll soften up any counters while your main army makes it back
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On March 23 2011 20:28 Tump wrote:
Use High Templar? Khaydarian Amulet was removed from the game, not Storm or Feedback.
Drops are easily stopped by Stalkers and good scouting. Build observers. If they actually land a drop, Zealot/Stalker mixture works wonders. You don't need Warp in KA Templar to stop drops.
In the late game, if you're really worried about bigger "doom" drops, let energy build on a couple HT left at home. In Brood War, people often left 1-2 Templar per mining base at home pre-emptively to aid in defense (particularly vs Zerg, but this applies to Terran Bio in SC2 as well).
Vikings are a joke when Storm is in the picture. EMP was already dealt with pre-nerf, now it's even weaker. Use Observer to track enemy unit movement, split templar, cast Feedbacks and Storms. Easy.
seconded
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No one here plays protoss. That much is clear. Zealots vs marauders? On what planet? Phoenixes vs Vikings? With marines pouring from every side? Collosi? Weeeeeelllll 20 vikings nullify that.
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On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight.
yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right?
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On March 23 2011 20:54 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
No one here plays protoss. That much is clear. Zealots vs marauders? On what planet? Phoenixes vs Vikings? With marines pouring from every side? Collosi? Weeeeeelllll 20 vikings nullify that.
Uh. Chargelots/Phoenix/Colossi destroys vikings/mmm just as well as Stalker/Sentry/Void Rays/Colossi destroys roach/hydra/corrupter.
Do you even know why the reason air is put into the deathball? It's because they tank and kill, while allowing your 5 colossi to kill everything else.
On March 23 2011 20:33 Hane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:22 FeyFey wrote:
one high templar (they can save up energie you know). Before there was a planetary toss had the best base defense consisting out of a few canons and one high templar. While zerg and terrans had to work on their expansion defense there was no real need on it for a toss hehe.
are you trolling ?
Uh, this is true. What league are you in?
Cannons attack EVERYTHING AND DETECT. Missle turrets only attack air, but can detect. Spine crawlers can only attack ground, but can't detect, so you waste extra money on spore crawlers.
2nd best defense is cannons + ht's/dt's
1st best defense is planaterry fortress + missle turrets
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I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi.
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On March 23 2011 20:54 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
No one here plays protoss. That much is clear. Zealots vs marauders? On what planet? Phoenixes vs Vikings? With marines pouring from every side? Collosi? Weeeeeelllll 20 vikings nullify that.
You're right, the proper way to play Protoss is to not make any units. That way the Terran doesn't have anything to counter! If you want to understand why the strategy forum is a running joke amongst the rest of the site, look no further than this guy's post to see why.
With the patch, the only adjustment I'd make to PvT is to delay high templar tech until you are absolutely sure you have a very strong economy. If you went for templars as soon as you had your third base before, now you should do it after you saturated your third base instead. If you relied on warp-in templars to stop drops in the past, you now have to get better at scouting and use blink/DTs instead for drop defense. Perhaps even add cannons once you have a third base. While you're waiting for the economic advantage you need to tech safely, the gas build-up should definitely be used to get more sentries and get forge upgrades to strengthen your army, and dark templar harass to keep Terran on the back foot. Carrier transitions can still work, but you can no longer abandon colossi completely. Maybe carrier/colossus/HT in the lategame rather than just HT/carrier in the previous patches.
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Here's an idea, how about carriers replace the HT in that mix? With the KD nerf, that 120 secs to build a carrier doesn't seem quite as punishing, and they trade about even in resources vs vikings.
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On March 23 2011 21:31 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight. yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right?
if u watched it closely, you would know that boxer was 50+ supply ahead and landed perfect emps.
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On March 23 2011 23:18 Corvi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:31 freetgy wrote:On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight. yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right? if u watched it closely, you would know that boxer was 50+ supply ahead and landed perfect emps.
From what I remember it was 200 vs. 200 in all three matches. Nightend was ahead on probes, but not by 50.
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hehehe so glad i switched to terran... even though it was sad part of my life.. toss is being raped.. funny sc1 was being balanced throughout new upgrades and abillities... now theyre just removing everything.. if this goes this way sc2 will be pretty boring in no time 
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On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi.
You will have to pick and choose wisely.
Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed
Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run.
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On March 24 2011 00:10 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi. You will have to pick and choose wisely. Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run.
I think you have a different understanding of "mid to lategame" than I do.
I'm talking about the point in time where I have the double ups already started, have my colossi on way and have or am about to set up my third. Basicly the point where you'd normally start a transition to HTs. Therefore your arguments don't make much sense, because you could say the exact same things about teching to HTs. They are also very gas-heavy/etc. and still it was very do-able pre-1.3. What I meant was, that - very simply put - instead of going for a HT transition, I'll probably play around more with a DT transition, that's meant to be annoying and allow for +3 archons in the lategame-battles to kill vikings that are floating on top of my army, focussing the colossi.
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On March 23 2011 20:54 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
No one here plays protoss. That much is clear. Zealots vs marauders? On what planet? Phoenixes vs Vikings? With marines pouring from every side? Collosi? Weeeeeelllll 20 vikings nullify that.
Charge lots counters marouders. And phoenix vikings.
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phoenix counter vikings, guess 1.3 buffed them secretly then?
On March 23 2011 23:18 Corvi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:31 freetgy wrote:On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight. yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right? if u watched it closely, you would know that boxer was 50+ supply ahead and landed perfect emps.
no in the major deciding clashes it was always maxxed Army battles
G1:
M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix
and P lost badly ("P unstopple" -> my ass...)
G2:
M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix/HT
T lost because of the damage output of the Protoss, well bound to happen if Terran stays T1-2 all day long
G3:
see Game 1
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On March 24 2011 00:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:10 Dommk wrote:On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi. You will have to pick and choose wisely. Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run. I think you have a different understanding of "mid to lategame" than I do. I'm talking about the point in time where I have the double ups already started, have my colossi on way and have or am about to set up my third. Basicly the point where you'd normally start a transition to HTs. Therefore your arguments don't make much sense, because you could say the exact same things about teching to HTs. They are also very gas-heavy/etc. and still it was very do-able pre-1.3. What I meant was, that - very simply put - instead of going for a HT transition, I'll probably play around more with a DT transition, that's meant to be annoying and allow for +3 archons in the lategame-battles to kill vikings that are floating on top of my army, focussing the colossi.
But High Templars do real damage, if you warp in a HT and Storm a drop or killed off/emptied a medivac, then it paid for it self well. If you warp-in a DT and before it can get two hits in, it is scanned and killed, it is wasted Gas. If Terran could negate High Templars that easily, they would.
With less High Templars mixed in late game, the less Ghosts that Terran will need and the stronger their army will be overall if you include the fact that you just lost four+ Storms that you would have had otherwise.
You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's.
You can go DT's along with it, but it shouldn't be your priority
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Sides have changed, go for a timing push when you have 2-3 cols or things will get harder and harder.
I dont see Protoss having big changes in late game.
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On March 24 2011 00:34 Dommk wrote:
You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's.
i wouldn't be so fast to say that, if you warp in 3-4 DTs they can clean up a drop pretty good.
Also they would need to realize it fast or they will lose the units pretty fast.
As odd as this sounds DT are more durable as Stalkers cause they are classified light instead of armored and have less health but their sick dps makes up for that.
i don't know how it would work out with more than 1 medivac but a standard M&M Drop could be cleanable with DTs.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:14 sleepingdog wrote:On March 24 2011 00:10 Dommk wrote:On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi. You will have to pick and choose wisely. Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run. I think you have a different understanding of "mid to lategame" than I do. I'm talking about the point in time where I have the double ups already started, have my colossi on way and have or am about to set up my third. Basicly the point where you'd normally start a transition to HTs. Therefore your arguments don't make much sense, because you could say the exact same things about teching to HTs. They are also very gas-heavy/etc. and still it was very do-able pre-1.3. What I meant was, that - very simply put - instead of going for a HT transition, I'll probably play around more with a DT transition, that's meant to be annoying and allow for +3 archons in the lategame-battles to kill vikings that are floating on top of my army, focussing the colossi. But High Templars do real damage, if you warp in a HT and Storm a drop or killed off/emptied a medivac, then it paid for it self well. If you warp-in a DT and before it can get two hits in, it is scanned and killed, it is wasted Gas. If Terran could negate High Templars that easily, they would. With less High Templars mixed in late game, the less Ghosts that Terran will need and the stronger their army will be overall if you include the fact that you just lost four+ Storms that you would have had otherwise. You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's. You can go DT's along with it, but it shouldn't be your priority
You can't do that, they took kaydarin amulet out of the game. No more warp in storming drops.
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On March 24 2011 00:34 Dommk wrote:
You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's.
Umm....I'm aware of the fact that DTs won't be able to replace HTs lol. But saying, for instance, that stargates are the answer is also highly speculative. TSL spoilers incoming:
+ Show Spoiler +White-Ra basicly won his game on shakuras due to archons dealing insane splash-damage to vikings. He made them out of HTs but didn't get storm-tech, so making archons from DTs would have been cheaper. On the other hand, Nightend lost his games vs Boxer with mass-phoenixes that were supposed to buffer the vikings. After seeing the game from white-ra I have to say I have certainly underestimated the strength of archons vs vikings. And regarding drop-defense, DTs do in fact make dropping really painful for terran. Because not only does he have to waste a scan, but he needs to be 100% aware of the fact that there are DTs, otherwise the dropped units will die basicly instantly.
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On March 24 2011 00:27 freetgy wrote:phoenix counter vikings, guess 1.3 buffed them secretly then? Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:18 Corvi wrote:On March 23 2011 21:31 freetgy wrote:On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight. yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right? if u watched it closely, you would know that boxer was 50+ supply ahead and landed perfect emps. no in the major deciding clashes it was always maxxed Army battles G1: M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix and P lost badly ("P unstopple" -> my ass...) G2: M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix/HT T lost because of the damage output of the Protoss, well bound to happen if Terran stays T1-2 all day long G3: see Game 1
I guess having 40 supply in 0 energy phoenix is kind've a liablity.
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exactly, Phoenix are good as long as they have energy, i don't like them in PvT at all, they are fine for a harass unit, but a combat unit? no
Vikings are on par with them and cost less gas have better range and can be build faster.
I mean in such a Battle what do phoenix do? they are their to tank for the Colossus, but that logic goes from a Terran play who can't focus fire.
Obviously if you Focus Fire the Colossus will die if Phoenix are on the field or not. So the Phoenix only can be used to kill the Vikings while they deal with Colossus to get an Air Superiority.
The question is, does this give us anything? G1 shows, phoenix may give you Air Superiority after the engagement but without Energy that are 20-40 supply that are doing basically nothing to benefiting you. Just read the decision why Boxer got the win after disconnect.
(it is actually the same problem Zerg has with Corrupters who also can't shoot down, after they got air superiority)
It may actually be way smarter to get Voidrays instead of Phoenix, cause they deal better with vikings but are useful after a fight.
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dont let all your templars be EMPd? spread out
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That's the same as saying you don't need ghosts for templar cuz you can just spread out your MMM.
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EPT
