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Hey guys,
Just posted my 2nd strategy blog. Here's an excerpt:
ZvP has been a frustrating matchup for me (and for Zerg players in general, I think) for a while. To really understand why that is, though, I think we need to take a long, hard look at what makes the matchup so hard.
1. Easily the first dilemma we run into in ZvP is the difficulty of scouting, coupled with the power of Protoss one base plays. It’s just hard. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of argument there. Sadly, this isn’t going to be our focus today. If you’re struggling with this aspect of ZvP, however, there’s a lot of good content out there to get you started. (I would definitely recommend the 12 Weeks episodes that focuses on 4 gate.
2. Next up, and similar to our first point, is how hard it is for Zerg to be aggressive early in the game, without putting themselves completely all-in. Protoss one-base plays definitely do come at a price, but because Toss units are so hardy, and Zerg units are so fragile, it’s much easier for Protoss to inflict critical damage, get ahead, and then transition into a macro-game, than it would be for a Zerg player trying to apply similar kinds of pressure. Is it impossible? Of course not. But Zerg just lacks the kind of spatial control necessary to play defensively after an aggressive opening. To be more specific, a Protoss player who 4 gates, forces Zerg to make a lot of units, and then falls back to an expansion with cannons and forcefield is a lot safer than a Zerg player who 7 Roach Rushes, picks off a few pylons, and then falls back to an expansion of his own with just roaches and spines to defend.
3. This is the biggy: Attacking into a Protoss player in the mid-game is very difficult. There are very few instances in a game of Starcraft 2 where the Zerg player finds himself in a strong enough position to just ball up and lean on a Protoss opponent. Zerg lacks the range, the front-loaded burst damage, and, again, the spatial control necessary to be able to just clump up and attack. Importantly, I don’t want people to read this and feel like I’m saying Zerg is lacking something here… It’s just one of the issues, and one of our race’s mechanics that we have to address when planning our mid-game.
4. And this is the one everyone is familiar with: Eventually, the Protoss army just gets too big to engage directly, and to be able to kill it, Zerg has to engage it multiple times, and from multiple angles.
But why is #4 such a big issue? Everyone knows the answer: Colossi. Sentries. Void Rays: Big, strong, hard-hitting units that we can’t possibly engage because of how well Toss can control space via forcefield.
Please read the whole thing on my site:
http://evolutioncomplete.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=152&Itemid=789
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Oh, MrBitter, you're such a tease. :p
Off to your site I go...
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Great post, after a game where I once again feel like quitting the game or rolling T or P. I guess us zergs just need to start getting more aggresive again.
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This strategy seems only applicable when the Protoss is sitting back and going for the deathball. We already knew that situations like that required Zerg aggression, but it's nice to have it all laid out like this.
Are there other situations where this strategy is useful?
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Dear Mr. Bitter,
I think I might be falling for you.
Love,
Mattsville
In all seriousness though, BIG thanks for everything you've been doing for the community lately. The Blip videos, the 12 Weeks, the Infestor build...
I know I am not alone when I say it is appreciated....
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Although I do agree with the notion, this is most definitely a 3base vs 3base situation. You won't be able to abuse mobility much when the toss is on 2 bases. I think most zergs have trouble versus a 2 base protoss ( I might be wrong ) , and on 3base situations its kind of a given that you shouldnt just bash armies against eachother.
Its what terran has done versus protoss in the lategame since god knows when, its just silly that zergs haven't looked at that and just stayed on tier 2 for a while, just abusing mobility.
Good post though 
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Reading now, thanks again bitter. You are the only reason I can keep my cool with the swarm.
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One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg...
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On March 21 2011 07:41 Mattsville wrote:
Mr. Bitter,
...
In all seriousness, big thanks for everything you've been doing for the community lately. The videos, the 12 Weeks, the Infestor build. I know I am not alone when I say it is appreciated.
Apreciated it is indeed. Thanks for the efford. I was giving up in ZvP lately, doing all-ins with Hydras every game. I'll try this out if I ever reach late game against toss again, I've been so unmotivated to play lately... This sure will help my mood. Sincere thanks.
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On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg...
Well, I wouldn't say strong.
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What happens when the protoss is going for blink stalkers?
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On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong.
I would...
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On March 21 2011 08:01 facades wrote:
What happens when the protoss is going for blink stalkers?
Blink stalkers splitted up is crap against upgraded roaches (assuming stalkers are upgraded as well) or upgraded hydras, even with blink, as long as you're both at 2/2 (stalkers become worse as upgrades get higher) since it IS 3-4 base game now.
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Yep. Really, it comes down to the sentry. Sentries are awesome in big fights where they completely obliterate enemy concaves, but if Z splits forces, the sentries become a liability. They're too slow to respond quickly, their spells are less powerful at smaller army sizes, and forcefielding well requires 100% focus, so you can't get good, timely forcefields at both fronts. By splitting forces, Z turns P's most powerful unit into a low health, low DPS 100 gas liability.
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On March 21 2011 08:02 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:01 facades wrote:
What happens when the protoss is going for blink stalkers? Blink stalkers splitted up is crap against upgraded roaches (assuming stalkers are upgraded as well) or upgraded hydras, even with blink, as long as you're both at 2/2 (stalkers become worse as upgrades get higher) since it IS 3-4 base game now.
How can you say this? (although I don't know what you mean by splitted up)
WITHOUT blink and WITH range upgrade, hydras are dead even with stalkers, aside from the slower movement speed off creep, and the fact hydras don't have any bonus damage vs armored. Hydralisks also gain less % of damage bonus per attack upgrade compared to stalkers attacking non-armored.
WITH blink, stalkers dominate hydralisks.
When it comes to roaches, they can do rather well if they have burrow, speed, and burrow movement/regen upgrades, and are microed very well, but even then I'd say they will loose. Why? well the stalkers can quite easily focus fire down the roaches before they can burrow, while still being able to blink away their own forces. With roach's slower attack, higher damage, and shorter range (and non-instant attack, though stalkers are the same way) they do not focus fire well at all.
While vs roaches, stalkers' DPS doesn't gain as much per upgrade compared to roaches', their overall effectiveness in large numbers (mid-late game scenarios) improve over time due to their greater range, and health buffer they have to blink with before dying. That is much more important than a 14% damage boost roaches get over stalker when at level 3 attack.
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On March 21 2011 08:01 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong. I would...
My post was vague lol. Well, when I said that it wasn't strong, I meant that it's not as good as terran drops.
One thing I'm talking about is that you can snipe A LOT faster with marauders than with roaches. Another is that they're incredibly mobile compared to zerg drops.
Zerg drops are still good, but if they get caught, there's a very high chance that you have to drop where you're currently at because a) protoss has blink stalkers b) protoss has phoenixes/void rays for deathball.
Those air units and blink stalkers can easily snipe drops if scouted.
I would say
"One thing to ephasize is how incredibly strong OL drops in the main combined with the basic ground army attacking anywhere else."
If the drop makes it, it's incredibly strong, but another thing to factor is that there's a lot of chokes inside a protoss base because of buildings require pylons (this is why you see buildings spread out within a toss base). If the zerg is caught just when he's about to drop, but the zerg is not at an optimal spot and instead gets choked between buildings, they'll DIE from colossi splash. The void rays/phoenies will clear everything else out.
Even if a terran's medivacs die, the MM can just run around and play ring around the rosy, which roaches, and especially hydras, cannot do.
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Hmm. Good writeup. But spreading your army out will just force a protoss to go into a base trade.
edit: I take that back. If you hit at a good timing before the 3rd has kicked in, the death ball isn't big enough to crush through the entire Zerg base. I might have to think about this.
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MrBitter, this has to be one of the most well-written and helpful posts I've seen in the SC2 strategy forum for a long, long time. Thank you so much, this will certainly make me re-think the way I go about managing my army in ZvP.
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This is a pretty darn good post. Really loving what you're doing for the Zerg community, dood.
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On March 21 2011 09:06 KevinIX wrote:
Hmm. Good writeup. But spreading your army out will just force a protoss to go into a base trade.
edit: I take that back. If you hit at a good timing before the 3rd has kicked in, the death ball isn't big enough to crush through the entire Zerg base. I might have to think about this.
What makes you say this? If the protoss is losing his base, and you're equal to him, once you take out most of his stuff, you can just re-rally and attack from behind while engaging with reinforcements from your hatches at the front, and smash him from both sides.
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i saw that epizode with iNControl, those 2 prone attacks really messed up the tosses flow
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On March 21 2011 09:05 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:01 MrBitter wrote:On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong. I would... My post was vague lol. Well, when I said that it wasn't strong, I meant that it's not as good as terran drops. One thing I'm talking about is that you can snipe A LOT faster with marauders than with roaches. Another is that they're incredibly mobile compared to zerg drops. Zerg drops are still good, but if they get caught, there's a very high chance that you have to drop where you're currently at because a) protoss has blink stalkers b) protoss has phoenixes/void rays for deathball. Those air units and blink stalkers can easily snipe drops if scouted. I would say "One thing to ephasize is how incredibly strong OL drops in the main combined with the basic ground army attacking anywhere else." If the drop makes it, it's incredibly strong, but another thing to factor is that there's a lot of chokes inside a protoss base because of buildings require pylons (this is why you see buildings spread out within a toss base). If the zerg is caught just when he's about to drop, but the zerg is not at an optimal spot and instead gets choked between buildings, they'll DIE from colossi splash. The void rays/phoenies will clear everything else out. Even if a terran's medivacs die, the MM can just run around and play ring around the rosy, which roaches, and especially hydras, cannot do.
There is one big difference between Zerg drops and Terran drops though. Terran drops are very self sustaining and efficient harass units. 1 medivac+marines is far more potent than a group of ling/roach. But the strength of the Zerg drop is that at any moment, there are a dozen overlords available to doom drop. Fly in 6 overlords, and your opponent is forced to pull his entire army back whether your overlords are all full or if there's only a half dozen lings in there.
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For anyone who hasn't seen it, be sure to check out the replay pack at the bottom of the post. Some really nice examples, imo, of what I'm trying to preach.
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Unfortunately zerg doesn't have medivac+rines/rauders for truly awesome pwn drops.
But yeah otherwise, you can't attack the deathball at all. This is why mutas are so strong vs. toss when you don't get 6 gate all ined.
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On March 21 2011 09:19 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 09:05 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 08:01 MrBitter wrote:On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong. I would... My post was vague lol. Well, when I said that it wasn't strong, I meant that it's not as good as terran drops. One thing I'm talking about is that you can snipe A LOT faster with marauders than with roaches. Another is that they're incredibly mobile compared to zerg drops. Zerg drops are still good, but if they get caught, there's a very high chance that you have to drop where you're currently at because a) protoss has blink stalkers b) protoss has phoenixes/void rays for deathball. Those air units and blink stalkers can easily snipe drops if scouted. I would say "One thing to ephasize is how incredibly strong OL drops in the main combined with the basic ground army attacking anywhere else." If the drop makes it, it's incredibly strong, but another thing to factor is that there's a lot of chokes inside a protoss base because of buildings require pylons (this is why you see buildings spread out within a toss base). If the zerg is caught just when he's about to drop, but the zerg is not at an optimal spot and instead gets choked between buildings, they'll DIE from colossi splash. The void rays/phoenies will clear everything else out. Even if a terran's medivacs die, the MM can just run around and play ring around the rosy, which roaches, and especially hydras, cannot do. There is one big difference between Zerg drops and Terran drops though. Terran drops are very self sustaining and efficient harass units. 1 medivac+marines is far more potent than a group of ling/roach. But the strength of the Zerg drop is that at any moment, there are a dozen overlords available to doom drop. Fly in 6 overlords, and your opponent is forced to pull his entire army back whether your overlords are all full or if there's only a half dozen lings in there.
Oh, I never thought about that. It only works for like 20 seconds though, right, because in that 20 seconds if there's 6 overlords on top of your buildings that doesn't do anything, it'll get suspicious. I do see the army pulling back thing though, that's quite clever.
I think the "bad" part of that is those overlords are all gonna die, and that's a lot of supply. Thanks.
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On March 21 2011 09:37 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 09:19 KevinIX wrote:On March 21 2011 09:05 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 08:01 MrBitter wrote:On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong. I would... My post was vague lol. Well, when I said that it wasn't strong, I meant that it's not as good as terran drops. One thing I'm talking about is that you can snipe A LOT faster with marauders than with roaches. Another is that they're incredibly mobile compared to zerg drops. Zerg drops are still good, but if they get caught, there's a very high chance that you have to drop where you're currently at because a) protoss has blink stalkers b) protoss has phoenixes/void rays for deathball. Those air units and blink stalkers can easily snipe drops if scouted. I would say "One thing to ephasize is how incredibly strong OL drops in the main combined with the basic ground army attacking anywhere else." If the drop makes it, it's incredibly strong, but another thing to factor is that there's a lot of chokes inside a protoss base because of buildings require pylons (this is why you see buildings spread out within a toss base). If the zerg is caught just when he's about to drop, but the zerg is not at an optimal spot and instead gets choked between buildings, they'll DIE from colossi splash. The void rays/phoenies will clear everything else out. Even if a terran's medivacs die, the MM can just run around and play ring around the rosy, which roaches, and especially hydras, cannot do. There is one big difference between Zerg drops and Terran drops though. Terran drops are very self sustaining and efficient harass units. 1 medivac+marines is far more potent than a group of ling/roach. But the strength of the Zerg drop is that at any moment, there are a dozen overlords available to doom drop. Fly in 6 overlords, and your opponent is forced to pull his entire army back whether your overlords are all full or if there's only a half dozen lings in there. Oh, I never thought about that. It only works for like 20 seconds though, right, because in that 20 seconds if there's 6 overlords on top of your buildings that doesn't do anything, it'll get suspicious. I do see the army pulling back thing though, that's quite clever. I think the "bad" part of that is those overlords are all gonna die, and that's a lot of supply. Thanks.
This is actually something TLO has talked about before.
If you show Toss that you have drop, you can threaten him with it with empty overlords, and it forces him to respond.
Conversely, if you fake drop a couple times, and then Protoss starts to think you're crying wolf, you can really devastate him with a real drop when you finally see he's out of position.
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On March 21 2011 09:37 dave333 wrote:
Unfortunately zerg doesn't have medivac+rines/rauders for truly awesome pwn drops.
But yeah otherwise, you can't attack the deathball at all. This is why mutas are so strong vs. toss when you don't get 6 gate all ined.
Kevin just responded to me, look at the above post. I really don't know if sacrificing 6 overlords is a good idea, but as soon as I see that, I would move my whole army back which allows the zerg to destroy my front/3rd.
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Great post. This is probably how Z will evolve against P. I have been telling my Z friends that the best way to beat Toss is to just deny their 3rd. If any one saw Ret play Incontrol in the GCPL. He constantly denied the Protoss third with roaches and kept him contained on 2. This snowballed quickly and InControl got crushed 2 bases against 5. InControl actually plays a far more mobile style of deathball by relying on more stalkers with his colossi and no voidrays but was unable to stop this well executed strat.
Protoss units, despite their reputation, are horribly cost inefficient in small numbers and when scrambling around the place. Their excellent supply efficiency and great synergy is what makes them almost unstoppable at max.
As Protoss I find the Roach, the Speedling and the Baneling disgustingly cost-efficient when compared to Protoss T1 units but they are not supply efficient at all.
This eventually comes down to multitasking on both sides and creates a dynamic battle between micro, multitasking and map awareness.
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Yep I saw your video with InControl on the two pronged attack...its really annoying esp at xel naga...burrowed roaches with claws are really a necessity now in ZVP. Keep up the posts man, you're really helping guys like me vs. toss.
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Hey Mr.Bitter. Just for future noting, it would be great if you could stick dates on your strategy blog posts just so we can tell how timely relevant they are Thanks!
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I remember watching your show with Incontrol last week where you used lots of multi pronged attacks to great effect. Especially cool was using burrow to hide some of your forces to extend the effectiveness of the attack.
What are good times to get the drop research? I remember from your episode with Idra he suggested getting overlord speed soon after lair; in this case would you get drop after that finishes? While it's researching? etc?
I think multi-pronged attacks are great, it's just sometimes it seems difficult to find the resources to fit drop tech or nydus worm, or to get units early to open the back rocks (like on shattered temple) into the build. Would be great to hear more about this either here or on your show.
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My only problem with this is my multi tasking is HORRIBLE. However, if I can beef up my APM efficiency I can see this fixing my ZvP conundrum.
Never really thought of drop. However, what's your opinion on Roach Burrow Move? Sending ovie drops or nydus into their bases, and then sending burrowed roaches when they move their obs and army to the nat to their main and unburrowing to kill all their crap and sending some Ovies to pick them up. Or is that getting too fancy and luck based?
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The only question I have is what if the Protoss is being attacked from multiple angles like you said and just says fuck it, and goes for a bace race. Sure you would do damage but 10-20 roaches and or hydras against a full deathball or semi deathball (2 base) it would be nearly impossible unless you pull back as well.
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On March 21 2011 10:54 Terminator(471) wrote:
The only question I have is what if the Protoss is being attacked from multiple angles like you said and just says fuck it, and goes for a bace race. Sure you would do damage but 10-20 roaches and or hydras against a full deathball or semi deathball (2 base) it would be nearly impossible unless you pull back as well.
Let's assume this then. You kill all of their probes and production capability easily before they reach your base (especially if you're dropping +2 banes, which one shot probes). Now they are all in. You are not. All you have to do is DEFEND. Throw up 20+ spines, bring a shit ton of drones and queens and just attack them from behind with your harassing army and the front with the rest. Even if you lose 50+ drones, you'll still have the capability to macro up dozens more afterward and they will be screwed.
Besides, not many people will base their games on a base trade.
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On March 21 2011 08:50 kcdc wrote:
Yep. Really, it comes down to the sentry. Sentries are awesome in big fights where they completely obliterate enemy concaves, but if Z splits forces, the sentries become a liability. They're too slow to respond quickly, their spells are less powerful at smaller army sizes, and forcefielding well requires 100% focus, so you can't get good, timely forcefields at both fronts. By splitting forces, Z turns P's most powerful unit into a low health, low DPS 100 gas liability.
im pretty sure you CAN get good forcefields at two different places, i honestly dont know why you would think otherwise, it just takes a little practice im sure. but the main thing is, you only need to forcefield one spot completely off and then rape the other prong of the attack.
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definly try this out, been doing 3rr for awhile agiast toss cause i can beat their tier 3, just worryed about base tradeing
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 11:03 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:50 kcdc wrote:
Yep. Really, it comes down to the sentry. Sentries are awesome in big fights where they completely obliterate enemy concaves, but if Z splits forces, the sentries become a liability. They're too slow to respond quickly, their spells are less powerful at smaller army sizes, and forcefielding well requires 100% focus, so you can't get good, timely forcefields at both fronts. By splitting forces, Z turns P's most powerful unit into a low health, low DPS 100 gas liability. im pretty sure you CAN get good forcefields at two different places, i honestly dont know why you would think otherwise, it just takes a little practice im sure. but the main thing is, you only need to forcefield one spot completely off and then rape the other prong of the attack.
You're assuming the ideal stiuation here where you can actually completely forcefield off one spot.
Usually a good Zerg would not less this happen, either he will drop your natural first and force you to pull units there (which is usually quite a bit away if you are about to take a third) AND keep in mind a good player will react when he see's the overlord and not when he see's wtf the zerg has unloaded out of this overlords [means you have no fucking time to decide which units you leave behind or not, mostly you'll be rushing there with most of your force even], which means either your units are away, out of position OR they aren't and your natural gets owned.
Make a decision.
And exactly that's the point of it!
You force the protoss to make a decision that is NEVER favorable for him if you do it right.
And this doesn't even take into account that what is described so easily by you "just ff off one spot and clear out the rest" takes actually a lot more speed, precision and micro in this situation by the protoss than MOST people do have - where as the zerg "simply" has to attack one side and do a drop on the other one.
Yet again, if the Protoss just keeps all his sentrys at front and takes the time to lock you out there your natural might already be gone in the meantime.
I'm not trying to say its unbeatable either for protoss, don't get me wrong, if you have blinkstalkers and spot a drop it can very well end up as a freaking desaster for the Zerg as well.
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In my opinion, the biggest weakness of doing this kind of thing is getting to a point int he game where you can: ie: Not dying before you get your own 3 base economy rolling. (Which is when I like to add drop)
This kind of later mid-game style obviously isn't going to save you from a 4 gate or a 6 gate, or from any kind of 1 or 2 base all-in...
Like I said in the article, that's one of the primary difficulties of ZvP in general, and its not one that I think anyone has a good answer to.
That said, if you can put yourself into a position where you CAN start to really amp up the multi-prong harass, I think ZvP becomes a much more manageable matchup, albeit still quite hard when it comes time to fight the deathball.
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This is exactly how I play TvP, drop and split up the protoss army as much as possible.
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Is there a specific numerical split that you've found to be the most beneficial? As in, attack with 80% of your force at one expo and drop say 20% of the rest in their main, or split it up 50/50 etc. without getting too complicated with a 3 pronged split yet :o(but feel free to elaborate on it if you can!)
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On March 21 2011 11:25 Tachion wrote:
Is there a specific numerical split that you've found to be the most beneficial? As in, attack with 80% of your force at one expo and drop say 20% of the rest in their main, or split it up 50/50 etc. without getting too complicated with a 3 pronged split yet :o(but feel free to elaborate on it if you can!)
This is kinda' my philosophy. Different players might have different approaches:
Your first attack is never the main attack, but it always has to be big enough to force toss to react to it resoundingly.
Your second attack is what's meant to do damage, and it has to be big enough to do that. If its far enough away from the army, though, as few as 12-16 roaches can really wreck a probe line, or a tech tree. Sniping robos can be far more devastating than Nexuses sometimes.
IF there's a 3rd or 4th prong, it should be small, so as not to occupy too much of your supply, but significant enough to mulch probes. 8-16 lings, for example, can totally devastate mineral lines.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 11:19 MrBitter wrote:
Like I said in the article, that's one of the primary difficulties of ZvP in general, and its not one that I think anyone has a good answer to.
Spinecrawlers > gateway units.
Of course there's not point in having 20 spines at your natural and p just takes a third, I'm just saying, the more sentry he has the better you'll do if you have a reasonable amount (5+++) spinecrawlers up already...
Going pure units against it always makes me facepalm
+ Show Spoiler + As you can guess I did facepalm quite a bit yesterday.
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To deal with the forcefields your best choices, besides attacking from multiple angles is definitely which units you should get in this matchup
Roaches might look as a powerful unit first as they are really cheap and got some range but in my opinion they arent really useful in early game stages. The reason is that every 5 roaches you need an overlord which is quite a big investment early compared to 20 lings you could get for the same supply and the big advantage of mobility. Hydras are the unit ill never build anymore not even against air and rather get more queens or spore crawlers followed by a spire. Corruptors are actually a good choice in almost any situation vs protoss as they are able to hit air and colossi. I think we already had plenty of examples where the roach/hydra/corruptor army fails. The reason are high costs for relatively low damage - roaches have short range and slow rate of fire, hydras are expensive and die fast. While i've also seen examples where a protoss switched to immortal/templar from a coloss build the zerg has to constantly reinvest into new armies that will deny hive in most cases
It takes quite long to get enough roaches and hydras as well as getting all their upgrades and during this period the protoss gets out the colossi and you are forced to make corruptors and then the situation or lets better say the deadly wheel of wasting resources for low effectivity will begin as i mentioned above
The real problem, as stated already is the forcefield. None of the Zerg ground forces will be able to reach colossi behind them and only your corruptors will do their damage but due to stalkers not dying quickly to your ranged attackes they will pick off corruptors - to sum it up im convinced that this is not the correct way to play against protoss
The new approaches with building ling/bling as the backbone of your army has several advantages. As it requires way less supply you will need less overlords which is a huge advantage in the early game. Speedlings are your fastest and most versatile unit, banelings your only unit with area damage until you get ultras. Back to the forcefields its obvious that melee units have the hardest time to reach the protoss army BUT for just 300/300 you will be able to avoid forcefields and increase your damage output by far - just compare these 300/300 and those resources of ling/bling including upgrades with costs for roaches, hydras and corruptors and their upgrades - in the end you have a good chance to cause more damage with less resources!
Another less obvious advantage is that these resource savings will completely accelerate your play and provide a lot of flexibility. With the leftover resources you can do anything - first of all you can get more expansions earlier. The core of ling/bling can be combined with everything. With spire for example you can either get mutas for harassment or corruptors to kill colossi (if the colossi are destroyed the protoss army has no real hard counters for the ling/bling combo). The last option is teching for hive and get ultras. I highly doubt there will be a way which is as fast and provides the same safety - ling/bling and ultras are awesome (if the protoss goes air or goes HT i hope its obvious that you have to play different but im referring to the most standard protoss strategy)
In a summary going ling/bling and droptech will dramatically reduce the effectivity of forcefields, sharply increase your harassment options and offers a high degree of strategical flexibility; back to the basic idea of the topic if you use lings with bane drops from different angles there is a high chance of protoss self-trapping and maximizing the damage output.
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should definitely check out the sen vs naniwa games from the GCPL finals, Sen was everywhere and it seemed very effective
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Damn you, MrBitter. I prefer Zergs that smash a ball of Roach/Hydra into Collo/Sentry/Stalker and cry imba when they get steamrolled!
In all seriousness though, I feel like drop play is the most underutilized tool in the ZvP aresenal right now, and ZvT to an extent as well. When I off with Zerg I'm guilty of this as well, but instead I usually go for heavy Roach plays to aggressively shut down the Protoss 3rd. As a Protoss player, I know how difficult (impossible) it is to get that yummy ball o' death without 6-8 gas.
For the time being, I think mass Lair is the way to win with Zerg, and smashing a ball of Lair units into a ball of Coll/Sentry/Stalker is rarely going to work in Zerg's favor, even if you have 4k/2k and 80 larva ready. The Zerg opponents that give me the most trouble are very active with several groups of units, creeping and burrowing at expansions I'm looking to take, shutting down my 3rd and countering my main/nat with drops while expanding all over the map. Roach/Ling is very cheap, expendable and quickly replaced, and you can max out much faster than the Protoss. Hitting at multiple locations as you reach this max is so difficult to deal with while you're going for the Collosus deathball, especially if you are able to snipe key tech structures (Support Bay, Twilight Council, Robos, etc).
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I think what Zerg needs is a good double evo ling/muta build that is designed specifically to counter the zealot/sentry 3 gate expo. Right now, going Roach into Hydra/Corrupters just feels really immobile. Like MrBitter said, this is a very immobile army that doesn't do enough damage quickly enough to dodge in and out of battles.
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Oops double post. Just to add to my point, I think drop play works well on certain maps but is difficult to do on maps like Xel Naga where you are much more likely to lose all of your army without doing much damage.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:04 denzelz wrote:
I think what Zerg needs is a good double evo ling/muta build that is designed specifically to counter the zealot/sentry 3 gate expo. Right now, going Roach into Hydra/Corrupters just feels really immobile. Like MrBitter said, this is a very immobile army that doesn't do enough damage quickly enough to dodge in and out of battles.
Ugh, you know that until some time ago (read: before phoenix buff) mass muta was actually one of the most used strategies in ZvP, right?
And a "timing attack" as you've described it - even with double evo - is not going to happen, I just forcefield my ramp and fight your mutas with Blinkstalkers/Sentry only, that's the problem about it.
The only way you make mutalisks work is by playing defensive, upgrade them and eventually get a number that is high enough to rape everything.
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On March 21 2011 13:04 denzelz wrote:
Oops double post. Just to add to my point, I think drop play works well on certain maps but is difficult to do on maps like Xel Naga where you are much more likely to lose all of your army without doing much damage.
Why are you more likely to lose your whole army on Xel'Naga? If the Protoss blob is in the center of the map a base drop would be awesome.
Might be a scrub question, not trying to argue I just genuinely want to know.
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On March 21 2011 13:18 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 13:04 denzelz wrote:
I think what Zerg needs is a good double evo ling/muta build that is designed specifically to counter the zealot/sentry 3 gate expo. Right now, going Roach into Hydra/Corrupters just feels really immobile. Like MrBitter said, this is a very immobile army that doesn't do enough damage quickly enough to dodge in and out of battles. Ugh, you know that until some time ago (read: before phoenix buff) mass muta was actually one of the most used strategies in ZvP, right? And a "timing attack" as you've described it - even with double evo - is not going to happen, I just forcefield my ramp and fight your mutas with Blinkstalkers/Sentry only, that's the problem about it. The only way you make mutalisks work is by playing defensive, upgrade them and eventually get a number that is high enough to rape everything.
Well the idea behind muta/ling against 3 gate expo is to stop that first attack from Protoss while harassing with mutas and preventing the P's 3rd base. The lings are only meant to defeat the P's army if P decides to move out. Most of the damage is dealt by the mutas. The point of the mutas is to kill probes and snipe sentries. You expand heavily and keep adding muta numbers. Again, this doesn't work at all against Stargate openings which is why I said it was only used to counter 3 gate expos. When I scout Stargate, I have to fall back to Roach/Corrupter.
But, for the sake for not derailing this thread, the reason why I think some maps are better for drops than others is that maps like Xel Naga can intercept drops easier because it is narrow. Unlike a map like Metalopolis or Scrap Station where your overlords can escape really easily, your drops are a little more committed on Xel Naga.
Also, I was wondering what the Zerg's plan is if the Protoss decides to just push into your base when you are dropping in 3 places.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Well the counter to mass mutalisks, even with Zerglings, before the Phoenix buff was to get 200 supply (mainly blink stalkers, some sentry+zealot too however) with +3 attack off 2 base and really, I haven't seen any Zergs defeat that blob with pure mutaling.
Possibly with Banelings added to that mix, yea, but if P hits his timing window you're in a shitload of trouble, because at this point P will simply ignore the fact that you're destroying his main nexus for example cause he knows you can't really stop him from killing you.
However, mutalisks are still underused in ZvP nowadays, because that muta ball still beats anything else but pure stalker/sentry.
In fact most people do not even know that Mutalisks shitfucking rape Void Rays, means this usual Protoss deathball with mass colo, 10 void rays and about 15 stalkers dies pretty easily to 30++ mutalisks actually
Obviously once Protoss mixes in a lot of Phoenix it doesn't anymore without corruptors. 
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Mutas are great, and I've always said that Zerg players should always WANT to have 30 mutas flying around the map in ZvP... The problem is getting to that stage of the game without dying...
This multi-prong stuff I'm talking about doesn't have to be roach-specific. You can do it with lings and banes, roaches and hydras, or even mutas and lings.
Its basically just positioning 101.
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im not sure if it perfectly fits into this thread but i want to share a game i played today that shows the power of constant harassment compared to defensive macro play
(2nd time i tried this strategy and i dont even think i played pretty well which is almost scary considering this strategy in the hands of a really good player)
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=197202
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On March 21 2011 11:03 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:50 kcdc wrote:
Yep. Really, it comes down to the sentry. Sentries are awesome in big fights where they completely obliterate enemy concaves, but if Z splits forces, the sentries become a liability. They're too slow to respond quickly, their spells are less powerful at smaller army sizes, and forcefielding well requires 100% focus, so you can't get good, timely forcefields at both fronts. By splitting forces, Z turns P's most powerful unit into a low health, low DPS 100 gas liability. im pretty sure you CAN get good forcefields at two different places, i honestly dont know why you would think otherwise, it just takes a little practice im sure. but the main thing is, you only need to forcefield one spot completely off and then rape the other prong of the attack.
There's a difference between good forcefields and forcefields that are good enough to keep you alive. For example, consider forcefielding against roaches. Roaches are going to be cost effective against P if they can get in close. In order to hold a roach attack efficiently, P wants to let about 20-50% of the roaches through a choke and then forcefield the rest away. The window where you can chop off the amount of roaches you want to fight lasts about 1 second. Sure, if you miss that second and let the roaches in closer, you can create a wall of 8 forcefields next to your army and then back away creating a similar situation, but you've spent more forcefields and you've taken a lot of extra damage.
If a good Protoss player is focusing on one attack front, he'll hit great forcefields that chop the perfect amount of units off every time. But if Z attacks 2 fronts at once, P might get great forcefields at one of the locations, but there's no way he'll forcefield optimally even if, somehow, he has split and positioned his army perfectly. Fighting on multiple fronts simply favors Z, even if P knows what's coming.
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Mr. Bitter, your link:
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On March 22 2011 01:48 Jotoco wrote:
Mr. Bitter, your link:
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I guess the server couldn't handle the awesomeness that is TL crowd.
I suppose MrBitter is getting too popular, but that is for the best, as he is a great guy.
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On March 22 2011 01:48 Jotoco wrote:
Mr. Bitter, your link:
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Oh noes.
Time to bust heads and yell at web-people.
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On March 22 2011 01:54 CampinSam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 01:48 Jotoco wrote:
Mr. Bitter, your link:
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The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.
I guess the server couldn't handle the awesomeness that is TL crowd. I suppose MrBitter is getting too popular, but that is for the best, as he is a great guy.
Nah. I think he is too bitter. (Bah-dun-tish!)
I want to comment on something, but I first need to read the whole text. Sad I can't.
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kk, all fixed. Thanks for the heads up.
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MrBitter, what do you do if they just get pissed off and try to base trade you? It seems like a legit strategy, but I am just wondering what happens if they try to do that. Has that happened to you in your games yet? Can you hold it off with half your force separated on the other side of the map?
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I agree with this post.
I've been trying to get drops in every match-up once the game stabilizes (ie not going to die to a simple timing attack). In my mind, it's like burrow. Get it every game unless you will immediately die by spending that gas.
For me, it works wonders, partly because of what you say about protoss army working less efficiently when split.
But the number one reason it works for me is that most people I play with on the ladder (high diamond) completely choke when they're multi-dropped by a zerg player. It's almost as if it is just not in the playbook they learned from. Sometimes it's comical just how badly people fall apart if you are in an even game then you drop them in 2 spots while carefully pressuring their front. Presumably better players will respond better, but hey you can probably execute it better as well.
My rule of thumb is to drop enough to easily deal with static defense in addition to one round of warp-ins at the target location. This forces them to move their army, and that's when they screw it up. I had a game where I dropped a guy once, and he overreacted, so I sniped his third. I dropped him again, and he underreacted, so my drop took out his double robos and other miscellaneous damage.
By giving your opponent opportunities to screw up, you are giving yourself, as the more skilled player, more opportunities to capitalize on his mistake and kill him. Macroing to max is like crossing your fingers and hoping his macro is sufficiently worse than yours. If it works for you, great, but it stopped working for me.
It synergizes very well with infestors. In ZvZ if it goes to roach infestor, I drop their main (drops means 2 fewer infestors, so that's the disadvantage I have to catch up from) and most diamonds 1a back to defend, then I can trap them on the ramp with infestors while I kill expansions. Again, just another example of how poorly people react to drops.
In ZvT I play muta/ling/bane but with more upgrade focus (fewer mutas I guess), and let me tell you that crackling drops just cut your average diamond terran to pieces. It does not matter how many tanks he has sieged at his PF or how many turrets he has in his main.
In terms of tech investment... you should get speed anyway, and drops will pay for itself on its first use if you compare it to what you would lose attacking a fortified position dealing equivalent damage. It also opens up many possibilities. They may not be worth the investment by themselves, but if you have drops anyway, you've got a whole new toolkit at your disposal, and if you've got apm to spare, why not?
- baneling bombs
- drop on tanks
- doom drops
- that offensive creep spread queen drop strategy that we all thought of while in bronze league but never executed because we never got drops
- air lift micro. Hopping over forcefields, saving hurt units, elevatoring high ground.
- fake drops + mind games. Once you've revealed drop tech, they have to respond anytime they see an overlord flying through their airspace. Keep them busy. Keep them paranoid. If they suck at stopping your fake drops, then they will suck at stopping your real drops too.
- islands/difficult expos or risky drone transfers
- hiding units. Maybe you don't want to reveal your ultralisk count when he scans.
Personally I hardly ever use any of those. I get drops for multi-prong harass, and I use it for multi-prong harass. but the other options are available if the time comes.
I suggest watching Squirtle vs Moon on shakuras from IEM to see some great zvp drops. Yes moon, had a commanding lead from his opener, but the drops just keep him in the lead. Great demo of relentless multi-pronged harass.
I think drops are the future of zerg.
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Quite possibly the future of ZvP.
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On March 21 2011 09:03 Xapti wrote:
How can you say this? (although I don't know what you mean by splitted up)
WITHOUT blink and WITH range upgrade, hydras are dead even with stalkers, aside from the slower movement speed off creep, and the fact hydras don't have any bonus damage vs armored. Hydralisks also gain less % of damage bonus per attack upgrade compared to stalkers attacking non-armored.
WITH blink, stalkers dominate hydralisks.
When it comes to roaches, they can do rather well if they have burrow, speed, and burrow movement/regen upgrades, and are microed very well, but even then I'd say they will loose. Why? well the stalkers can quite easily focus fire down the roaches before they can burrow, while still being able to blink away their own forces. With roach's slower attack, higher damage, and shorter range (and non-instant attack, though stalkers are the same way) they do not focus fire well at all.
While vs roaches, stalkers' DPS doesn't gain as much per upgrade compared to roaches', their overall effectiveness in large numbers (mid-late game scenarios) improve over time due to their greater range, and health buffer they have to blink with before dying. That is much more important than a 14% damage boost roaches get over stalker when at level 3 attack.
this post is so much wrong on so many things...
Hydra/Ling absolutely rapes blinkstalker
while Roaches Die to Blinkstalkers
also Hydras gain most by upgrade and not less than Stalkers, you fully disregard attack cooldown.
sure roaches gain +2 every upgrade but also have a cooldown of 2 making it 1dps
while hydras gain +1 every but have a cooldown <1s thus making it >1dps
while Stalker gain +1 and have a cooldown >1s thus gaining <1dps
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I have been experimenting a lot with drops in ZvP. It only works well in situation if you are ahead in macro like in a standard ZvP ( > 1 additional base, 200 zerg food ~ 160 toss food). Usually toss' 3rd base is just up and its death ball isn't that lethal yet.
However if toss deathball is large enough (roughly equal food), they will usually be dancing near your 3rd and 4th bases, trying to pounce on any opportunities to kill you off. If you do anything funny with drops, they will just kill off your mining bases and weaken your ability to reinforce, then go back and kill off your scattered forces with ease.
Zerg drops are slight different from Terran's. Zerg drops need to come in a huge wave to deal any damage. 1-2 OL drops doesn't work at all, it does not have the dps of 8 stimmed marines. What i like to do is when i'm nearing 200 food, i will make a big drop into protoss' main, while the rest of the army that are still spawning will proceed to attack the 3rd or natural. Prevent their forces from coming up by engaging at their ramp. (Finally zerg can use a choke to their advantage. WOO!) Unlike during usual situations where your army got cut by FFs and your remaining army could not attack anything, here the rest of army is at least attacking some buildings or probes.
Tip: If your so ahead in macro, include infestors in your drops to fungal armies on the ramp. When making multiple drops, make use of burrow micro after killing their cannons. They will not have observers in every bases. Please snipe any robo, robo bay, twilight council, cyber core (impt! this delays their rebuilding of tech) and forges.
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As a protoss player, I have lots of trouble with aggressive zergs in the mid game. When a zerg player gets about 50-60 drones and begins massing roaches with speed and poking around my main, I find myself helpless alot of the time as I don't have the deathball that I need quite yet. The main idea here is to deny the third and poke the natural when my army is out of position. This is an incredibly strong tatic, and I have a hard time defending it without taking massive damage. All this aggression also allows the zerg to expand around the map without any worry of attacks by the protoss.
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once again great work for the zerg community Mr. Bitter! Big Thanks!!
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MrBitter,
I am a lowly diamond player who has two issues with the proposed methods of engagement.
#1 my hotkey setup makes it difficult for me to split up my army (at least as far as I can see). I have roach hydra on ` (right next to 1), lings/ultras on 1,infestors on 2, muta/corruptor on 3, broodlords on 4.
While I feel competent in splitting up my forces by type so sending Lings to one spot and roaches to another, I am limited by this in that I can not split my roaches. Should I rethink my hotkey set up? I know Day[9] says that he has always used hotkeys for armies from left to right, but that seems like a lot of rehotkeying and I feel like I would be constantly losing units around the map.
#2 I have been trying to incorporate drop play into my ZvP games. Often I have found that when I drop in the toss base while their main army is out in front of their second or third, or when I split a force and attack elsewhere, the Protoss decides instead of defending to do an all in push while my forces are split.
My problem here is that engaging that force is already difficult with a full army, so if I have just a part of my army, I get crushed trying to defend against the push and I never win the base race that ensues.
Any advice for either of these issues would be wonderfully appreciated.
Much thanks and respect
~J3cht
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Your blog is awesome MrBitter, love your help to your fellow Swarmers. Good strategy analysis!
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first time i saw this is on Incontrol stream, one of EG practice match for MLG Dallas on Shatter temple and Test bug. The guy used burrow speed roaches to harass both the back base, the gold and the nature of Protoss while getting up the 4th and 5th bases. Quite good but i dont think it will work vs a gateways heavy composition due to the mobility of blink and wrap gates. Also if you try to force base trade, P always has the upper hand.
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I can just underline those statements MrBitter made. And I can add, that its very tough to deal with those kind of attacks while its quite easy to do those (For any out there claiming Protoss is so much easier to play.. do this and you will have your easier time! ).
For defeating Muta/Ling with a 200 supply army of 2 base: No matter how big your army is, as soon as you leave your base you will be counterattacked. And there is now way you will kill all the zerg buildings (Dont forget, Zerg has the map control!) before he kills yours, even if you add only cannons when your "deathball" finishes.
And as Mrbitter statet correctly, Protoss needs a 3rd base to get the deathball (and reinforce it fast enough). I had lots of situations where I didnt get my 3rd up, got my deathball up but zergs economy was just too strong by then, just killing my ball piece by piece, because I wasnt able to reinforce enough. So if its not close position on Meta for example, you should really be able to outmacro a Toss on 2 base. And as soon as you get your 3rd base up (or try to..) multipronged attacks become insanely difficult to deal with.
What I would like is to see is a Funday Monday with "You only are allowed to counterattack/You have to counterattack". Of course in many circumstances that would lead to some wierd basetrades (but thats a part of Funday Monday anyways.. Fun!) - but eventually many zergs will figure out how strong that type of play is.
But to be honest I like many of those posts here, because they tell me: Not too many ppl are going to do those things soon, so I dont have to worry about that big black hole I dont know how to fill anytime soon and can concentrate on other things like mechanics
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On March 22 2011 03:17 babysimba wrote:
I have been experimenting a lot with drops in ZvP. It only works well in situation if you are ahead in macro like in a standard ZvP ( > 1 additional base, 200 zerg food ~ 160 toss food). Usually toss' 3rd base is just up and its death ball isn't that lethal yet.
However if toss deathball is large enough (roughly equal food), they will usually be dancing near your 3rd and 4th bases, trying to pounce on any opportunities to kill you off. If you do anything funny with drops, they will just kill off your mining bases and weaken your ability to reinforce, then go back and kill off your scattered forces with ease.
Zerg drops are slight different from Terran's. Zerg drops need to come in a huge wave to deal any damage. 1-2 OL drops doesn't work at all, it does not have the dps of 8 stimmed marines. What i like to do is when i'm nearing 200 food, i will make a big drop into protoss' main, while the rest of the army that are still spawning will proceed to attack the 3rd or natural. Prevent their forces from coming up by engaging at their ramp. (Finally zerg can use a choke to their advantage. WOO!) Unlike during usual situations where your army got cut by FFs and your remaining army could not attack anything, here the rest of army is at least attacking some buildings or probes.
Tip: If your so ahead in macro, include infestors in your drops to fungal armies on the ramp. When making multiple drops, make use of burrow micro after killing their cannons. They will not have observers in every bases. Please snipe any robo, robo bay, twilight council, cyber core (impt! this delays their rebuilding of tech) and forges.
just watch the game i posted on the page before - i havent been ahead in any way before i dropped but after by far
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Just played a training session against one of MrBitters students and i just have to say, in theory, i have no idea how to effectively defend against the multipronged style, with drops and everything. It's an absolute nightmare to play against as P. I am seriously looking for tips how to combat it, other than just go kill him because i dont like the unstable state of base trading very much. I fear that with the development of skill and people becoming more and more able to do this i see myself on lost ground.
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On March 22 2011 03:58 j3cht wrote:
#2 I have been trying to incorporate drop play into my ZvP games. Often I have found that when I drop in the toss base while their main army is out in front of their second or third, or when I split a force and attack elsewhere, the Protoss decides instead of defending to do an all in push while my forces are split.
I'm not an expert but here are some general guidelines I follow during base trade scenarios aka "What if I drop the Protoss and he just decides to come kill my main"
- before your drop build mass spines/evo chambers (to soak damage/delay) with any excess mins. Unless micro'ed, Colossi will fire at evo chambers if they are in front of spines!
- if you really expect a base race, expand to island or far away base AND move 10 - 15 drones there ahead of time so they don't get trapped by Protoss army.
- rebuild tech at far away base, esp high tech buildings before your lair/hive go down.
- make sure none of your units are standing around in his main doing nothing after its destroyed, or wasting time on things like assimilators, quickly strike the 2nd/3rd bases, killing probes and production facilities as quick as possible.
- if the deathball returns to fight your army and you know you can't kill it, but you've crippled his bases, run! stall as long as possible while you hopefully still have the capability of building more forces at a distant base to turn the tide later
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On March 22 2011 01:57 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 01:54 CampinSam wrote:On March 22 2011 01:48 Jotoco wrote:
Mr. Bitter, your link:
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I guess the server couldn't handle the awesomeness that is TL crowd. I suppose MrBitter is getting too popular, but that is for the best, as he is a great guy. Nah. I think he is too bitter. (Bah-dun-tish!) I want to comment on something, but I first need to read the whole text. Sad I can't.
Now I can.
I agree. Multi-pronged attacks CAN be good.
But as someone has posted, it can lead to base trades. And as far as base trades go:
T >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P >>>> Z
I might be exaggerating, T's advantage might be bigger there.
What I think is better, and I don't see often enough is flanking. And not just front-back flanks. But FULL ON 4-way flanks.
In a game WAY back in patch 1.0 I managed to RAPE a colo/stalker/sentry ball with as few as 4~5 ultras and 20~lings. Ended losing about 5~10 lings and NO ultras to like, 5 colo + 20 Stalkers and a few sentries. I was 3/3 and he was like, 1/1, but still. It was one HELL of a 3-way flank one JUNGLE BASIN (crazy, huh?)
Either way great and informative post. Keep 'em coming.
And a bit of Off Topic, would you care to update your Losira's analysis with today's GSTL play? not to spoil anything but:
+ Show Spoiler +
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If anyone's been watching Sen play recently he's been all over this style. He sacrifices units like crazy to make sure that he always has a base advantage. Mutas in the main, while roaches go and snipe the third, and another group of units picks of stray units in the middle. I've also seen him dropping the main with hydra/ling/roach or some combination of that, and raoch/ling at the third sniping nexi.
The drops/mutas totally negates FFs, while the constant pressure stops the toss from ever having a scary enough ball to move across the map, or get any kind of strong tech out. I've also noticed that he makes a uniquely large amount of spine crawlers, that I have to say have looked absolutely clutch. I think this is a style that we should see come to prevalence to deal with what is seen as a heavily toss favored matchup right now.
That and the infestor changes of course ^_^.
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There's a lot of talk about base racing if you try to drop the protoss main or do other multipronged attacks. Maybe I'm ignorant, but why not build a nydus network before you attack and use worms to retreat? If he decides to attack your main, your army can be back home before he gets there.
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I really don't think the base race scenario is that big of a deal.
If Toss just picks up and goes and attacks the second we split him up, then we're essentially forcing him to
1.) go all-in
2.) attack sooner than he would otherwise like to
The reason Protoss sits back and waits to make that big, death-ball attack is so that he can be, more or less, unkillable when it finally comes.
By forcing him to push earlier, his army is much less uber, and is far more punishable.
Just load up, flank from behind with your drop forces, and attack from the front with your reinforcements.
At least, this has been my experience since I've started really delving deeply into this style of play.
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Hey Mister Bitter,
I read both of your Blog entries and obviously you are right with everything you wrote;) like allways;).
But what I wonder is infestors, I would think that investing in infestors instead of more and more and more banelings like losira does wouldnt that actually be more efficient?.
I havent been able to play many 1v1s lately but in team games I often had the problem of getting cut down in bases and as we know zerg is pretty weak if it lacks tons of bases.
So out of frustration I went for infestor ling and yea my ally was ussually the one pitting the army to kill the opponent but infestors against terran seem so incredibly powerfull allready. 1 or 2 fungal growths wear a terran army down so much that its not even funny.
Now with the next patch the duration of the spell will be reduced which will in my opinion make it even easier to get multiple fungals off on opponents in general. Wont this be allmost game breaking? It seems to me that having like 2-4 infestors will allmost be enough to annihilate the main of a terran force or not?
in addition to that I just love to have 2 infestors with alot of energy sitting at opponents expansions or if possible even main and then when he moves out you just spit infested terrans and let them tear down the command center or if he is slow to react even the SCVs.
To the multiprong attack theme I can only say that I have started doing that myself lately (in team games) and it definetly is a great thing to exploit;).
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We all love you, thanks once again for another great post
Edit: I read your other blog entry though, and how would you deal with medivac play? Terrans obviously love their harassment drops but mutas are there to shut those things down.
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Youre so right I just think you cant kill the Deathball when the Toss has got blink Stalkers 6 Colosses and sentrys. Your baneling drops will not work, ive the Protoss has a little bit of micro.
So what im doing a lot right now is the roach drop inside his base. Its about he 11 oder 12 Minute mark i think. Just open up with fast expo. When you opponent is going for some 1 Base play. Just scout and look what he is doing. But ive your opponen opens up with forge first then epo and right techs to Colossis just kill him with a drop. Its so effective. Since moon has schown the potential of zerg Drops. And remember you cant just drop you can creep your opponents base. It is awesome.
Btw. Mr Bitter: <3 your stream
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On March 22 2011 03:17 babysimba wrote:
Zerg drops are slight different from Terran's. Zerg drops need to come in a huge wave to deal any damage. 1-2 OL drops doesn't work at all, it does not have the dps of 8 stimmed marines.
Two Zerglings has greater DPS than one stimmed marine, so in fact two overlords of Zerglings does have greater DPS than 8 stimmed marines. Not to mention you can carry banelings.
I do agree it seems odd to drop with less than 3 overlords, unless you're directly bombing the mineral lines. It's not as if 24 Zerglings (600 minerals, 12 supply) is a huge investment, and it's enough that a warp-defense is probably insufficient.
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This seems more like QQ than strategy tbh. Everyone knows that you can't let Protoss build a death army, the same way you can't let Zerg build a big economy.
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On March 22 2011 20:24 ExoD wrote:
This seems more like QQ than strategy tbh. Everyone knows that you can't let Protoss build a death army, the same way you can't let Zerg build a big economy.
You seem to have some problems reading and understanding text.
Nowhere in the article MrBitter complained about the protoss death-ball, he just analyzed it and came to the conclusion that you cannot engage this army directly in a fight.
He then proceeded to explain a way with which you can stop the protoss death-ball from reaching its critical size, through said multi-pronged attacks. This sounds very much like a strategy to me.
If you think that everyone knows this, it doesn't change the structure and content of the post. It's still no qq and explains a strategy against the protoss death-ball.
Please get out of this forum 
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On March 22 2011 03:06 Oboeman wrote:
I agree with this post.
I've been trying to get drops in every match-up once the game stabilizes (ie not going to die to a simple timing attack). In my mind, it's like burrow. Get it every game unless you will immediately die by spending that gas.
For me, it works wonders, partly because of what you say about protoss army working less efficiently when split.
But the number one reason it works for me is that most people I play with on the ladder (high diamond) completely choke when they're multi-dropped by a zerg player. It's almost as if it is just not in the playbook they learned from. Sometimes it's comical just how badly people fall apart if you are in an even game then you drop them in 2 spots while carefully pressuring their front. Presumably better players will respond better, but hey you can probably execute it better as well.
My rule of thumb is to drop enough to easily deal with static defense in addition to one round of warp-ins at the target location. This forces them to move their army, and that's when they screw it up. I had a game where I dropped a guy once, and he overreacted, so I sniped his third. I dropped him again, and he underreacted, so my drop took out his double robos and other miscellaneous damage.
By giving your opponent opportunities to screw up, you are giving yourself, as the more skilled player, more opportunities to capitalize on his mistake and kill him. Macroing to max is like crossing your fingers and hoping his macro is sufficiently worse than yours. If it works for you, great, but it stopped working for me.
It synergizes very well with infestors. In ZvZ if it goes to roach infestor, I drop their main (drops means 2 fewer infestors, so that's the disadvantage I have to catch up from) and most diamonds 1a back to defend, then I can trap them on the ramp with infestors while I kill expansions. Again, just another example of how poorly people react to drops.
In ZvT I play muta/ling/bane but with more upgrade focus (fewer mutas I guess), and let me tell you that crackling drops just cut your average diamond terran to pieces. It does not matter how many tanks he has sieged at his PF or how many turrets he has in his main.
In terms of tech investment... you should get speed anyway, and drops will pay for itself on its first use if you compare it to what you would lose attacking a fortified position dealing equivalent damage. It also opens up many possibilities. They may not be worth the investment by themselves, but if you have drops anyway, you've got a whole new toolkit at your disposal, and if you've got apm to spare, why not?
- baneling bombs
- drop on tanks
- doom drops
- that offensive creep spread queen drop strategy that we all thought of while in bronze league but never executed because we never got drops
- air lift micro. Hopping over forcefields, saving hurt units, elevatoring high ground.
- fake drops + mind games. Once you've revealed drop tech, they have to respond anytime they see an overlord flying through their airspace. Keep them busy. Keep them paranoid. If they suck at stopping your fake drops, then they will suck at stopping your real drops too.
- islands/difficult expos or risky drone transfers
- hiding units. Maybe you don't want to reveal your ultralisk count when he scans.
Personally I hardly ever use any of those. I get drops for multi-prong harass, and I use it for multi-prong harass. but the other options are available if the time comes.
I suggest watching Squirtle vs Moon on shakuras from IEM to see some great zvp drops. Yes moon, had a commanding lead from his opener, but the drops just keep him in the lead. Great demo of relentless multi-pronged harass.
I think drops are the future of zerg.
It's actually easier to multi-drop than it is to respond to multi-drops.
On March 22 2011 20:24 ExoD wrote:
This seems more like QQ than strategy tbh. Everyone knows that you can't let Protoss build a death army, the same way you can't let Zerg build a big economy.
You deserve a warning. Can you please learn to read?
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Great post Mr Bitter love your stream btw.
I think encorporating a nydus worm at the back or even somewhere off to the side of your 2nd prong attack is something ive been toying with; you can do maximum damage with your drop inside his base; pick up and get out; while saving your 2nd prong attack as well if your killing his expo.
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Nothing sweeter than Mr Bitter. Great post, keep up.. well. Everything!
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Good post, maybe people will finally listen when a zerg tells them to do this kind of stuff. When I (toss) write this, regardless of the forum or chat-channel I always just get flamed since I "don't know anything about playing zerg".
As a matter of fact, even a well timed drop without all the multi-pronged-stuff can severely hurt toss. The key factor is, that your wall at the main will work heavily against you. All the units are funnelled in a perfectly streamlined position to get picked apart by the zerg concave waiting at the top.
All people have to realize is, that toss units are terribly cost-inefficient in battles without forcefields. Trading roaches for stalkers is just great for zerg. Also, even if the drops cost zerg more money, since zerg can (and should) constantly expand behind these things, keeping the deathball small is definitely worth it.
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On March 22 2011 22:52 sleepingdog wrote:
Also, even if the drops cost zerg more money, since zerg can (and should) constantly expand behind these things, keeping the deathball small is definitely worth it.
There's certainly something in mult-pronged attacks, but SC2 economies never go beyond 3-bases. Once zerg and protoss both have 3 bases, the economic advantage for zerg is over. The only good part about innefficiently trading roaches for stalkers is that zerg production is usually higher than protoss. Trades have to be cost-efficient unless bases can be denied.
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would like to see Z use more of this type of play against my P. like many have mentioned, i do hope P can respond with something other than a base race.
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Countering FF is one of the hardest things for Zerg to do, going to your site now to check it out!
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I believe I saw a coaching session between InControl and Mr.Bitter where they go through this. It was really impressive to see the strength of these attacks. Protoss was behind the facts constantly, losing probes and structures everywhere.
Now that straight-up ball vs. ball play has more of less matured, thing finally start to get more interesting for Zerg. I like the idea of drop play and will be messing around with it more since I hate that deathball.
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I have a question: once in the Protoss main with a drop or a sneaky run, what should be my higest priority? pylons? gateway? nexus or probes?
and for the expansions? nexus and pylon or probes?
it seems i cant ever make a good decision to what attack first and what sould be my priority.
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On March 23 2011 02:23 BalZer wrote:I have a question: once in the Protoss main with a drop or a sneaky run, what should be my higest priority? pylons? gateway? nexus or probes? and for the expansions? nexus and pylon or probes? it seems i cant ever make a good decision to what attack first and what sould be my priority.
If you can cripple his eco, he can't build a deathball
If you can cripple his tech, you will delay the deathball
If you cripple his supply, he'll just throw down 10 pylons and carry on as usual a few seconds later
I'd prioritize things in that order.
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It's actually easier to multi-drop than it is to respond to multi-drops.
I agree 100%, which is why there is no reason not to be dropping.
Good post, maybe people will finally listen when a zerg tells them to do this kind of stuff. When I (toss) write this, regardless of the forum or chat-channel I always just get flamed since I "don't know anything about playing zerg".
After my success with drops, I told all my protoss friends to try it out and just get two warp prisms for the sake of having warp prisms. The value of drops is not race specific.
But most of them are very clingy about their robo time.
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In light of the recent neural parasite nerf, I've started to use this strategy. Considering the amount of QQing I see from Zerg players, I think this thread deserves another look. This is really straining my multi-tasking abilities, but ZvP is pretty fun with this strategy and it doesn't feel like such an uphill battle as the traditional ZvP used to.
Thanks Mr. Bitter!
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On September 28 2011 03:17 Xanbatou wrote:
In light of the recent neural parasite nerf, I've started to use this strategy. Considering the amount of QQing I see from Zerg players, I think this thread deserves another look. This is really straining my multi-tasking abilities, but ZvP is pretty fun with this strategy and it doesn't feel like such an uphill battle as the traditional ZvP used to.
Thanks Mr. Bitter!
The funny thing is that multi-pronged attacks are now my PvZ style: prism harass in the main while attacking the front with with army. It strains my multitasking as well; but I always remind myself that I am straining my opponents through the harass and forcing them to make decisions about army allocation.
As a P, I definitely fear this style from Zerg. It doesn't even need to be drops. Simply engaging my army at the front and running roaches or lings into the main makes me pull my hair out. That said, I often see Zerg overcommitting when they do this--sending too many lings into the main, for instance.
My advice, coming on the receiving end of these multi-pronged attacks, would be to have a concrete goal with your harass. Are you trying to snipe the nexus? Kill workers? Kill tech? Kill pylons? Pick one and focus on that.
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EPT
