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NO QUEEN Early Pool/Hatch Agression Openers
Introduction
When I first saw July v MVP game 2 in ro32, I thought his build was incredibly lucky and poorly thought out, and chalked it up once again to him relying on his natural talent and legendary BW skill to mask his utter lack of sc2 game knowledge (as was the case in the previous season). After dissecting it and really understanding the true genius of it, I've been working on modifying it to the more general case.
Essentially, you pool and fast expand, which may or may not bait some form of aggression or seemingly equal economic counter by the other player. However, by not getting queens initially, and temporarily halting drone production, the extra larva/minerals can feed directly into units, allowing a quick balloooning of supply which can potentially overrun an unprepared opponent.
The key in these builds is not to hit a very specific timing window, but to create a relative timing based on the misdirection and misinformation you send your opponent. This is high aggression disguised as a somewhat greedy economical opening.
The following are a couple variants of the same basic concept build I've been experimenting with on the korean ladder over the past week or so. Due to my recent move, I have been unable to test this the way I would like, and so instead of being able to offer a complete guide, I have decided to open this up more broadly into general discussion.
FE Roach Aggression See This Thread for ZvT Version
Uses: ZvT, ZvP (vs forge or early stargate play), ???
15 pool
15 gas (send 3)
16 hatch (transfer 2 drones to close patches)
(Optional 0-6 Zerglings)
15 warren
Overlord x2
Roach x8-11 (depending on number of zerglings)
- This build seems absolutely excellent at baiting a blue flame hellion harass. You'll notice in most of the replays that it seems upon receiving my scouting information, 3/4 opponents opt to do this, and it gets absolutely wrecked by roaches.
FE Roach/Ling Agression
Uses: ZvP (vs 4gate, maybe 3gate expand??), ZvT (vs marauder transition [if he scouts warren])
15pool
15gas (send 3)
16 hatch (transfer 2 drones to close patches
(2-6 zerglings)
@100 gas speed (if ling heavy, pull 1 off gas)
@150min Warren
Overlord x1 if ling heavy, x2 if roach heavy
lings and roaches
FE Ling/Baneling Aggression (July vs. MVP game2 ro32 )
Uses: ZvT (ramp wall)
15hatch
14gas
13pool
Drone x2
Baneling Nest @50gas
Lings until the end of time and as many banelings as you can manage at 28 supply (~7).
Closing Comments
Please offer any feedback/advice/criticisms/comments. This is very much a work in progress, but I'm highly interested in getting this
Example Replays:
I will try to caption these very soon. and also add more as I have more time to play. Also, I'm not selectively providing the replays, but I just have only had time for a few games, and in the games I have played ZvT FE Roach, every terran transitions to a hellion harass opening. I thought it was lucky, but there seems to be a definite pattern emerging.
Master
 vs  Michael vs TheDoctor ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) FE Roach vs. 2-rax aggression
vs  Michael vs NoFilter FE Roach vs 3gate expand
Diamond
vs Michael vs zeus FE roach vs 1-2 blue flame hellion
vs Michael vs 커티스 FE roach vs 3rax Fast CC
vs Michael vs Janu FE Roach vs 1-1 hellion + fast CC
vs Michael vs DeathKnight FE roach vs 1-2 blue flame hellion
vs Michael vs 스타크래프트 FE roach/ling vs 1-gate stargate
vs Michael vs 아미노케토 FE Roach vs 1-2 BF Hellion
vs Michael vs 아미노케토 FE roach 1-2-1 BF Hellion 2
vs XellOss vs Michael FE roach vs proxy double gate (loss)
+ Show Spoiler +I thought I had more replays but I will have to try and find them since I play on different computers at the PC rooms, sorry!
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This shows really good promise for safely getting your expos but you delay a lot of economy for it, and you have no early queens, so it takes even longer to recover. If you can really scare the other player with the early aggression, and keep map control, taking a third asap seems like a good way to make up for having to make those early units.
However, if you are unable to bait some early aggression or deal damage, then you're pretty much screwed. Its kind of like early pooling, just not all-inish.
When I have some time I'll look at some of the replays and see what the build actually does.
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Can't watch the replays atm, but scratching my head trying to figure out how this would be any good against 3gate expand...
Regular 11pool Roach/Ling can be stopped with a faster second gateway for 3gate expo, with a 15pool, I'm fairly sure that isn't even needed, you will have enough sentries to hold your ramp and just wait till you have the stalker numbers to push out, or drop a Stargate and grab Voidrays
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On March 15 2011 00:32 Dommk wrote:
Can't watch the replays atm, but scratching my head trying to figure out how this would be any good against 3gate expand...
Regular 11pool Roach/Ling can be stopped with a faster second gateway for 3gate expo, with a 15pool, I'm fairly sure that isn't even needed, you will have enough sentries to hold your ramp and just wait till you have the stalker numbers to push out, or drop a Stargate and grab Voidrays
Yeah I haven't tested much in ZvP, I mostly use this in ZvT. I think there's potential, but because I can't play on NA/SEA right now, I haven't been able to practice this against my usual group.
Added a few more replays:
vs Michael vs 아미노케토 FE Roach vs 1-2 BF Hellion
This is a pretty good replay I think. The Terran player scouted my lings/expo, and I started my ling speed because I saw he had barracks with tech lab. He then swapped so I canceled and pumped roaches. When he came for the blue flame timing, I had 9 roaches knocking at his door.
vs XellOss vs Michael FE roach vs proxy double gate (loss)
This was pretty poorly executed by me I think (the response, not really the build), but I think that this is probably supporting evidence that this kind of build may not be so great against Protoss, as it is susceptible to some goofy cheese if not properly scouted. I've since decided to just scout at 9 or 13 to be sure something like this isn't happening (although if you pay close attention, you'll see my OL spots his probe doing something fishy, and my other OL spots nothing at his ramp... I just failed to see)
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Good read Micheal, im glad some players are taking July`s win against MVP seriously and took the time to analyse and play with it. I`ll be testing it as well.
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I got to test this vs my some of my practice buddies on NA and added more replays... I think I've played enough to make a confident guide thread at least for the ZvT FE Roach.
vs Michael vs TheDoctor FE Roach vs. 2-rax aggression
Doc is a 3600 master on NA who has fun shitting on my cheeses when I work on them. This is vs 2-rax aggression in close-position ST, pretty much the "gg you went for a late pool and FE." However, I quickly overwhelm him with roaches and force his own gg.
I was worried because of the potential timing with 2-rax, and although I'd still like to test more, it's becoming clear that this is a pretty devious build that can work at mid+ master level.
vs Michael vs NoFilter FE Roach vs 3gate expand
This is another friend who likes to help me test my cheeses when I work on them. I'm still not sure how I feel about this build (or some modification) vs protoss, but he recommended that I should just do a contain vs 3-gate expand, or hit when he pushes out after harassing the ramp and draining his FF energy.
I barely overwhelm him in this replay, but he said he thought he could have executed it a little better.
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With your roach build you can get 8 roaches at about 5:45.
If you hatch first and delay the second queen to get the warren, you can get 8 roaches at almost exactly the same time (cutting the same amount of drones). Even with pool first builds I think the timing is very similar.
Basically the queen delays your first couple roaches, but the benefits of injects kick in so quickly that I don't think you can pass that up.
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I definately will be toying around with this build and will post any replays that I can to show this in action. I don't think this is really a "cheese" build, but more of something unexpected. I can't think of many openings that can handle 8-11 Roaches at your front door as quick as this can make them.
Instead of the Zerglings, I would think that getting a couple Spine Crawlers at your base may be a good way to defend yourself when you push out and are without a Queen. Also, putting off the Metabolic Boost and going pure Roach would allow you to Lair tech quicker, which I could then see a quick Spire and Mutas being a good course of action, or Hydras/Evo and do +1/+1 Hydra/Roach. I'll play around with it and post any worthwhile replays.
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This could cripple protoss if you can consistantly destroy the cyber core before warpgate tech finishes like you did in the game against NoFilter. Although he had over 1000 minerals banked but I think you could have still won had he been constantly producing zelots.
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i've actually had someone do this to me, but they went mass lings and i went for a greedy 2 gate expo with limited sentry support favoring stalkers for harassment thinking he would be behind in tech. boy was i way off. masters 3400ish if it means anything.
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Wouldnt pass up on my injects, but I usally do 15hatch, 14pool, 13 gas...and I make two queens asap. It helps with early agression and you get your creep spreading started asap.
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From my experience this only works when toss tries to FE. 1 gate robo absolutly destroyed this build when I went for roaches.
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Thanks for sharing, really loving these aggressive builds 
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On March 16 2011 12:35 dementrio wrote:
With your roach build you can get 8 roaches at about 5:45.
If you hatch first and delay the second queen to get the warren, you can get 8 roaches at almost exactly the same time (cutting the same amount of drones). Even with pool first builds I think the timing is very similar.
Basically the queen delays your first couple roaches, but the benefits of injects kick in so quickly that I don't think you can pass that up.
The issue is that a) You can't support two hatch Roach with queens, so the injections are worthless, and b) you don't need the creep because you are attacking and don't have queens.
In standard play, you get queens ASAP for injections, but you always use your first 25 energy on creep tumors if you FE'd. You do this because you need to be able to move your queens quickly, and you want some maneuvering room when you defend in mid-game. None of that matters when you do an early push.
While you CAN indeed get 8 roaches at the same time with Queens as without, you're looking at this the wrong way. With a queen, you can get 8 roaches almost the same time, and without a queen, you can get roaches at almost exactly the same time. The difference is you saved 150 minerals on a queen, and you don't have extra larva you can't use.
2 Hatcheries produce enough larva to sustain constant roach production off up to ~20 drones. Since this push has 14 drones (all variants I posted I think), then it's more akin to doing a 4-gate where you cut at 18-20 probes (in terms of resource taxation).
Lastly, by not having these queens early, your APM is more freed up to focus purely on micro.
If you use those first 25 energies from each queen on injects, you simply can't support the larva, even if you make only drones or only lings.
On March 16 2011 15:47 Ghost-z wrote:
From my experience this only works when toss tries to FE. 1 gate robo absolutly destroyed this build when I went for roaches.
I openly admit the ZvP aspect of this is highly up in the air. I've had tremendous success specifically with ZvT FE Roach builds, but ZvP is still largely a work in progress.
I think NoFilter probably hit at something great, which is a build like this could be ideal for a contain-play against a 3-gate expanding player (or easy defense of any variation of 4-gate, although you may want ling speed and a few more drones in this case).
If anyone has any ideas on how to better adapt this concept to ZvP matchup, I'm certainly all ears.
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well this obviously makes sense, since you can just view your Hatchery as Production Building (equal to 2-3 Rax/Gateways)
who is only used for production of battleunits, while you build economy from your main hatchery.
You would only need queens to build larva (additional production) if you can't spend money now. (to spend them later)
Only thing would be the lack of anti air, but since your beeing aggressiv i think that can be sorted out with good scouting.
It is obviously a Style that is way more close to those of the other races who expand when they are somewhat save.
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On March 16 2011 23:04 freetgy wrote:
Only thing would be the lack of anti air, but since your beeing aggressiv i think that can be sorted out with good scouting..
When I tried this out, as soon as I had my Roaches made, I quick made a Queen at each Hatchery, then went to Lair at one. The pressure from your large number of early Roaches will throw your opponent off a bit, and that short time period will give you the time to get your Queens out. At Lair tech, I went to Hydras and Evos and got the +1 ranged attack right off the bat (and then went Roach/Hydra/Crackling), and that was enough to stop a Banshee attack at my expo (I'll post replay soon).
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On March 17 2011 00:30 AngryBear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 23:04 freetgy wrote:
Only thing would be the lack of anti air, but since your beeing aggressiv i think that can be sorted out with good scouting.. When I tried this out, as soon as I had my Roaches made, I quick made a Queen at each Hatchery, then went to Lair at one. The pressure from your large number of early Roaches will throw your opponent off a bit, and that short time period will give you the time to get your Queens out. At Lair tech, I went to Hydras and Evos and got the +1 ranged attack right off the bat (and then went Roach/Hydra/Crackling), and that was enough to stop a Banshee attack at my expo (I'll post replay soon).
Yeah if you would please post a replay when you can, especially if you can find a way to make this concept viable vs. Protoss.
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Instead of the Metabolic Boost and Zerglings, would using those resources for 2 Drones and 2 Spine Crawlers make this better against 4gate and other Protoss rushes?
What exactly is the issue with this build being weak against Protoss?
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On March 17 2011 02:26 AngryBear wrote:
Instead of the Metabolic Boost and Zerglings, would using those resources for 2 Drones and 2 Spine Crawlers make this better against 4gate and other Protoss rushes?
What exactly is the issue with this build being weak against Protoss?
The main issue is that protoss can forcefield the ramp and sentry range 5 > roach range 4.
Speedlings aren't effective without a ramp bust, and you can't bust a ramp with 3-gate expand sentry-heavy style.
You can contain, but I haven't played this much ZvP and so haven't refined it as much.
vs. 4-gate you'd have to know the 4-gate is coming (not too difficult to do), but then you'd certainly be okay.
vs. 3-gate expand is the real problem, or 2-gate stargate I think could also cause some issues.
I know there's a gem of a ZvP strategy in here somewhere, but I haven't found it yet. I've had success, but nothing consistent--not to the level of the ZvT thread I ended up making.
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Tunneling Claws can get around the Forcefields, but that requires Lair tech >_<.
Perhaps the biggest weapon against Protoss would be to do Zerglings/Metabolic Boost "deception" (I've been doing Spine Crawler x2 instead of Ling/Boost), if nothing more than to have them have to plan for Speedlings and hopefully scare them off of Sentries?
It may just be that this build isn't as powerful in ZvP as ZvT, and as such, shouldn't be used heavily. I do agree that there is something that we're missing, but I can't put my finger on it as well...
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Here's a replay of ZvP with this BO:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151024-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
My opponent went for a fast Colossus and didn't wall off his ramp. Instead, he decided to wall in his Probes and surround them with his buildings. I found a weak spot (his Extractor), blew that up, and snuck in a few Roaches to start taking them down while I picked apart his buildings. He did get his Colossus up, but 5 Roaches quickly took that down.
He didn't scout, and he had one Sentry.
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by not getting queens initially, and temporarily halting drone production
It doesnt really seem like you ever end up getting queens, or resuming drone production, just seems more like quite a strong all-in than an agressive opening that you would want to transition out of.
Seems good vs terran, I like it, but how does it fare when the opponent actually sticks around to scout with his initial SCV?
The benefit of getting a queen in situations like these, afaik, is that you can start it right after pool finishes, along with some lings, chase the SCV out of your base or kill it, and start the roach warren slightly later, but due to the larva boost from the inject, still have around the same number of roaches at around the same time.
With your build, it seems like if the SCV sticks around, it would get to scout your roach warren, or would significantly delay it, and thus delay your roach push significantly too.
And about ZvP: If you scout a forge fast expand, on a map with an open natural, I think this could be good, but as for a 3/4 gate, its not a great idea to try and bust them early, usually.
You tend to be better off droning up a bit more, and then denying the expo in a 3gate, or crushing the push in a 4gate.
At least thats my experience, its very easy to crush a 3gate expand if the toss was a little too greedy (most of them are these days), or has bad building placement, and so on. But as for actually managing to get into his main, well that is just not going to happen most of the time.
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This is really interesting, makes you think about all the possible variations of building times.
Zerg has a long way to go before its fully figured out.
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On March 17 2011 16:58 morimacil wrote:
And about ZvP: If you scout a forge fast expand, on a map with an open natural, I think this could be good, but as for a 3/4 gate, its not a great idea to try and bust them early, usually.
You tend to be better off droning up a bit more, and then denying the expo in a 3gate, or crushing the push in a 4gate.
At least thats my experience, its very easy to crush a 3gate expand if the toss was a little too greedy (most of them are these days), or has bad building placement, and so on. But as for actually managing to get into his main, well that is just not going to happen most of the time.
After playing this a few more times against Protoss, I think that this insight is on point. It's much easier to deny the expo and use the Roaches to push back the 4gate rush than to try and bust through your opponent. Maybe we've been trying to find the "magic bullet" that would allow this build to take out Protoss like it takes out Terran, when in actuality, there is not "magic bullet" this early in the game. I've had much more success with the Roaches taking out an expo and then retreating that I have trying to force them into the Protoss base (especially if your opponent decides to cannon block their base).
In almost every Protoss game I've played with this build, if I haven't been able to kill my opponent with the rush, they've immediately switched to Void Rays. There's a time period where this build will get annihilated by air, because you're building Roaches and have no Queens by the time your first wave of Roaches is done. I have found it necessary to start your Queens almost immediately after you start your last set of Roaches in order to have something to defend with in case they decide to send 1 or 2 VR's your way. I've played with transitioning into Hydras, but because this build sacrifices your macro, you need to play almost perfectly between 6 and 10 minutes in order to get your economy up to the point where you can pump out anti-air.
Would popping down a Evo after you start your Queens and then making some Spore Crawlers be better than Hydras? My only concern with that would be that you're still sacrificing building your economy for defense, and I'd anticipate having a difficult time having the minerals to do all of this.
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No offense Angrybear, but what you were saying didn't make a lot of sense to me. I watched most the replays Micheal posted and what you were talking about didn't add up. Then I noticed your league in your profile. The matches you have at bronze aren't going to fit into the context of the games at higher leagues for other players.
We need more insight on this strategy from higher leagues, at least diamond and preferably Masters. I was planning on testing this out some and trying to find out anything I can and posting back if I find out anything useful.
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I pretty much agree insofar as I've been testing, that I think there is no silver bullet for zvp, however it is VERY strong in fending off 4-gate, and demolishes the timing on 3-gate expand, because 8-11 roaches vs 6 sentries is no good for protoss.
It definitely can bust greedy or sloppy 3-gate expands or 4-gates, but keen players should be able to hold and come out ahead.
Winning with 4-gate vs this is a lost cause though, and good luck securing a timely expansion when the harassing roaches force most of your energy away.
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I've been hit by this before (FE but really just use the hatch like a queen to all-in on roaches or banes followed by speedlings). It is because of it that goads me towards the secondary scouting mission to figure if zergy is being a nice droner zerg or a different kind of macro beast. One tell is the early BN or RW. I 1-gate into stargate all day long against zerg, but for this I just add another gateway and chronoboost gateway units. Ramp, choke is really about all you need PvZ to be just fine post early pool time.
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EPT
