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Introduction
Once the early game shenanigans are out of the way, most Terrans currently favor an MMM+siege composition through the mid-game and endgame in ZvT. While it is possible to combat this with muta/ling/bling, most Zergs will attest to this feeling like an uphill battle at times. Even with superior forces and better macro, your army’s inherent fragility and reliance on excellent timing means it can feel like you’re on the edge of a precipice. I believe this is not because of any severe imbalance, but rather because the roach is currently underused. A recent resurgence of roach-based compositions at the top level, and my own experiences on the ladder have led me to believe that a ling/bling/roach composition provides a more stable platform for ZvT.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/AOxCw.png)
Why roaches aren’t widely popular in ZvT
While the roach is a staple unit in ZvP and ZvZ, anyone who has tried massing roaches against Terran knows how quickly they get melted by MMM. In early game, roaches are effective against marines, hellions, and reapers. But marauders decimate them, and once medivacs arrive, roach DPS is no longer sufficient to handle any bio composition. The roach has thus been largely relegated to roach rushes and countering mech-only terrans, with the occasional abortive venture into hydra/roach. In fact it is not uncommon for high level Zergs to now play an entire game without dropping a roach warren.
Why roaches deserve a second look
The inherent fragility of muta/ling/bling can be understood in terms of 3 key factors:
(1) High mobility but low life totals: While this composition is excellent in harassing and securing map control, it can very quickly evaporate.
(2) Poor speed synergy: This is a concept I’ve written about previously: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182807 Because the various elements of the Zerg army have disparate speeds, it becomes extremely important to properly time engagements. A very small error in timing can result in the loss of the whole army.
(3) Vulnerability to area of effect damage: All elements of the muta/ling/bling army have a tendency to clump, and are thus particularly vulnerable to splash from thors, hellions, and siege tanks.
The inclusion of roaches addresses each of these issues:
(1) The inclusion of a tanking unit greatly boosts the durability of the Zerg army, meaning less larvae need to be spent after each battle.
(2) Because roaches move at nearly the same speed as banelings, their inclusion improves army coordination and movement.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/GiHR8.png)
Upgraded unit speeds, on and off creep.
(3) Due to their speed synergy with banelings and much larger size, roaches uncluster banelings, resulting in less vulnerability to splash damage. The Terran is now forced to target siege tank fire, and even then it is less effective.
In this respect, the roach plays a similar role in the Zerg army as the Ultralisk does in late game compositions, e.g., http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187434
In addition, the roach's ranged attack provides an excellent synergy with the melee attacks of zerglings and banelings. As the zergling ball starts to become too large, diminishing returns set in due to surface area limitations. The inclusion of roaches allows more total DPS to be delivered. Note that this is by no means a new composition (e.g., http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122427), but I believe it is currently underutilized.
Aiming for the ideal mid-game composition
In the ZvT mid-game, I would argue that there are 7 primary Terran units (Marine, Marauder, Hellion, Tank, Thor, Medivac, Banshee), and 5 primary Zerg units (Zergling, Baneling, Roach, Mutalisk, Infestor). The inherent flexibility of Terran in this match-up can leave Zerg struggling, especially now Terrans are becoming better at using mixed compositions. The arrival of Tier 3 provides Zerg with some additional options, but getting there in one piece can be problematic.
To my eyes, many Zerg players unfortunately restrict themselves unnecessarily to a muta/ling/bling composition when the addition of roaches (and infestors) could be extremely effective. Even at the top level, Zerg players often spurn adding a few roaches to their army as the Terran siege tank count grows, and it’s in these cases that the advantage built by Zerg across the course of the game can start to feel extremely fragile. I would argue that roach/ling/bling is a much more reliable base ground composition, and one that makes good use of Zerg’s general tendency to accumulate excess minerals.
Of course roaches should not be built blindly either; it is important that Zerg responds appropriately to the Terran composition. As a very approximate conceptual guide, I have included a unit wheel below. The idea being that this set of 5 Zerg units acts as a basic palette for constructing the Zerg army, with each particular unit being under- or overemphasized in reaction to what the Terran is doing. For example, if Terran is going particularly heavy on the mech and light on marines, more roaches and less banelings should be built. Of course it is impossible to cover every eventuality with such a simple visualization (e.g., mutas obviously also perform very well against a hellion/marauder composition, and neural parasite can make infestors an effective counter to mass thor). Nonetheless, I believe thinking about this match-up in big picture terms provides a useful framework for developing appropriate responses. For an excellent guide on the Zerg mid-game see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176625
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/nlI6x.png)
The 5 primary Zerg units and 7 primary Terran units in the ZvT mid-game.
Use of mutalisks
The addition of a roaming group of mutas can complement the roach/ling/bling ground composition extremely well, especially once Terran builds medivacs. The mutas provide a means of shutting down any drops, and provide additional DPS to marines on the run from banelings. They can also be used for standard base harassment, and as I’ve learned from my own games, if Terran responds to this by simply moving out with a marine/marauder/tank composition, the roach/ling/bling composition is much better at holding the fort than ling/bling alone.
Note that there are many possible paths to a mid-game roach/ling/bling+muta composition. Depending on Terran’s strategy, Zerg can potentially transition to this mid-game from a 2-base mutalisk opening, a roach defense to hellions, or a ling/bling response to traditional bio. In my experience, aiming to incorporate roaches from the beginning (and thus broadening your available tech) gives much greater flexibility in holding off the multitude of available Terran all-ins.
Engaging Terran head on
One of the chief advantages of the roach/ling/bling composition is the ability to take Terran armies head on. Typically in ZvT, even once Zerg has achieved a significant advantage, it is a mistake to attack into the Terran fortifications, since it provides Terran with an excellent opportunity to get back in the game. Zerg is thus usually forced to play a game of harassment and starvation. In these circumstances, Terran will continue to turtle, hoping to gain a second wind with a highly cost-effective maxed army. However, with roaches tanking damage, Zerg can actually break heavily sieged positions. For example, see the images below (taken from TSL_Fruitdealer vs. ST_Virus below). Notice that Fruitdealer sends the roaches just in front of the rest of his army to tank the first few siege blasts.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/1ok7C.png)
TSL_Fruitdealer attacks into the fortified position of ST_Virus
Use of roach/ling/bling at the top level and replays
Looking back to GSL1, Fruitdealer seemed to be one of the first to make use of this composition at the top level. At the time I was impressed by the fact that he seemed to be playing Zerg in a way nobody else was. His armies were this incredible swarming mass of zerglings, roaches, banelings, and infestors (and even ultras in late game).
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1148 (The whole match is great, but see Set 1 for an example)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/gFvaR.jpg)
Fruitdealer vs. HopeTorture in the first GSL Final
Despite his success, this composition didn’t seem to catch on with many other players in ZvT, with most preferring muta/ling/bling. Since that time, Terrans have gotten progressively better at handling muta/ling/bling, and more recently, other top level Zergs (including IMNestea, CheckPrime, and IMLosira) have started to incorporate roaches into their ling/bling mix with great success. Here are some vods from the latest GSL season.
CheckPrime vs. PoltPrime
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/61495 (M5 Set 1 for those of you with a season pass)
IMLosira vs. ST_August
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/61938 (Sets 1 and 2 are both good examples)
CheckPrime vs. oGsNaDa
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62034 (Set 1)
IMLosira vs. oGsSuperNova
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62599 (Whole match)
TSL_Fruitdealer vs. ST_Virus
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62859 (Set 2)
Specific build timings and triggers
The relative timings for roach warren, baneling nest, evo chamber, lair tech, and spire depend entirely on Terran’s play. This means it's imperative to be scouting the front and having a sacrificial overlord ready. A good Terran will try to deny scouting opportunities, but crucial things to look for are:
(A) Is Terran getting a refinery, or opening with two barracks? If it’s the latter, any tech is delayed, meaning your biggest concern is marines. In this case, the baneling nest should usually go down first.
(B) Is Terran expanding? If so, that’s less minerals on marines in the short term, meaning you can drone harder, potentially delay the baneling nest, and get lair tech earlier.
(C) Is Terran building an early factory? If so, you want to respond with a roach warren. If reactored hellions are on the way, you want a spine by your ramp as soon as possible, and a queen blocking the ramp until roaches are ready.
(D) If there’s an early factory, is Terran going banshees? If so, you may want an extra queen, and earlier timing on the evolution chamber. If it’s two port banshee, teching to lair earlier is a good idea, since the long term solution is going to be mutalisks.
(E) Is Terran researching stim? If so, you want to be thinking about lair tech for baneling speed.
Here is a high level example (taken from CheckPrime vs. PoltPrime above).
Terran opens with a single barracks, refinery, OC, into reactored factory and hellions, while building a new command center. He then transitions into tech labs on barracks (researching stim) and factory (researching siege mode), while building 3 new barracks (2 reactors / 2 tech labs on the 4 barracks). He moves out for a timing push as stim finishes, just after the 9 minute mark. At this point, siege mode is nearly finished, and terran has 2 siege tanks, 3 hellions, 6 marauders, and 18 marines:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mspMZ.png)
This is a scary push, and I’m sure a lot of Zergs have experienced dying to something like this. CheckPrime engages with a roach/ling/bling army (5 banelings, about 20 zerglings, 4 roaches, 1 queen) and is able to clean up very effectively with reinforcing lings. The roaches tank for the banelings, while the banelings force the bio back allowing the roaches to target down the tanks.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/E9Cuu.png)
So how did CheckPrime achieve this? Here is his full build from the vod:
+ Show Spoiler +15 Hatchery
16 Spawning Pool
17 Extractor
18 Overlord
18 2 x Queen
22 Zerglings
23 Drone
24 Roach Warren
23 Drone
24 Overlord
24 Zergling Speed
24 Drone
25 Drone
Inject / Tumor
26 5 x Drones
Check pokes and sees Hellions
2 x Roaches, and blocks ramp with Queens
Overlord
Check sees Command Center with Overlord, prompting him to drone and start a Lair and 2nd extractor just after the 6:00 mark. He gets a couple more roaches and spine crawler for defense while continuing to drone. He pokes with an overlord to see Terran building 3 Barracks at the 7:00 mark. This prompts him to build an Evolution Chamber, start Roach Speed, then get a Baneling Nest, and start Melee Attack. From here, he takes a third, and most larvae go into ling/bling and overlord production. He actually manages to squeeze out 5 more drones, a queen, and start baneling speed and a spire before the attack hits. This leaves him in a commanding position and ready to pump out a round of mutas after the attack is repulsed. For mortals, those 5 drones could have been roaches or lings, in which case he would have held very comfortably.
Conclusions
Roach/ling/bling is a rapidly rising style in ZvT at the top level that is proving to be highly effective against mixed bio/mech compositions. The inclusion of even a relatively small number of roaches adds great robustness to ling/bling, reducing the inherent fragility of the Zerg ground army, and allowing Zerg to tackle Terran head on. The style can also be readily adapted to incorporate mutalisks.
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Sounds like a good idea. Seems really mineral heavy though
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While I have been recently going muta/ling/bane/roach the reason why roach/bane I think isn't too used is because then terrans can abuse you with drops. They have no fear of muta's intercepting them so they can really abuse drop ship play. Sense there are no scourge there's no other way to really intercept them unless they go near your infestors.
Roach/ling/bane could be good I imagine if it wasn't for terrans that would just abuse the immobility and drop you everywhere which is very annoying especially on these bigger maps. But I have been experimenting with using roaches more as an add on to ling/bane/muta.
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Against drops, I would think that maybe leaving a baneling or two burrowed in the back of each mineral line would be a good idea
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On March 10 2011 07:37 scFranco wrote:
Sounds like a good idea. Seems really mineral heavy though
Which is fine for Zerg because they usually have a huge surplus of minerals (because of mutas and infestors)
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I agree with this. It's actually very simple to check in the unit tester. Get 8 tanks, spread them out and send 30 banelings at them. No banelings reaches even the closest tank. Do the same spread and make 15 roaches and 15 banelings, and nearly all banelings survive to get to the tanks because the roaches are eating tank shots. A baneling costs 50/25, and a roach 75/25, so its not much more mineral intensive than muta bane ling already is and has more durability. There is also no reason that you can't get mutas and roaches. You will have fewer banelings, but those banelings will very likely be worth more because they won't evaporate as quickly to tank blasts.
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Cella, previously CellaWerra uses roaches in almost every tvz he plays, which i finfd quite interesting. I havent tried it yet because im concentrating on Mr Bitters infestor ling 2x evo build at the moment but it looks quite good in some situations.
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I really like this thought process. Gas (and mineral) cost of the roaches plus the extra Gas cost of roach upgrades would be the potential problem here. You need to go air for drop defense and harass. So how do you go both roaches and air without spreading yourself too thin?
What roach upgrades would you get? Speed obviously, and armor overlaps with lings. What about burrow, burrow move, and ranged attack?
There is defiantly something to explore here. I have seen several GSL games where roach/ling/bling + muta has been used effectively.
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I discussed this a little before lol, but roaches are great for lower level zergs when under heavy rine/siege tank pressure because they aren't so larva intensive and have more durability; they are easy to spam.
Usually what happens is you attack with your blings/mutas/ling kill a bunch of rines, then your mutas try sniping the tanks but more rines that come pouring from reactor rax with medivac support push them away, and additional lings/blings are too easy shot down. Under all this pressure, it becomes easy to forget injects as well. Roaches provide some solid covering fire with your lings/blings, and do well against rines in small numbers, and so your mutas can do their job sniping the tanks without getting totally wrecked by rines. They are also good at counterattacking because...they're actually alive, unlike blings. Rines normally wreck them, but during a counterattack their rine counts are diminished; perfect for you speedling/roach.
Better zergs probably don't need them though.
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biggest problem with this unit composition is lack of units that can dictate pace.
pace of the game is determined by who has the ability to control space on the map.
he who has control of the map controls the pace and speed of the game.
with roach ling bling, you have no units to control space, therefore terrans will dictate the game to their liking with drops, meaning you will always be on the back foot.
without mutas (our only unit to control space now that the new infestor change changed it to a dps caster)
you just cant dictate pace at all as zerg.
which is why mutas are used as much as they are now. getting a flock of mutas allows you to a degree halt the movement of terran and slow the game to your liking.
sure they can push out to attempt to just gofucking kill you, sure they can contest your map control with their own mass drops. but that just adds to the dynamics of the match up.
however on the smaller maps in the current map pool (xelnaga and the likes) a unit composition like this could perhaps be more effiecient due to the fact there is less space to defend.
dont get me wrong. adding roachs after you have your muta flock is increadably useful because they are alot more larva efficient then lings, and give some adaptability when terran might decide to transition to mass thors.
but overall skipping mutas for roachs. essentially says to the terran "here you have map control ill just defend and macro up"
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This does not convince me, because roaches
a) have almost no DPS (compared to having more ling/blings instead), especially since you're unlikely to upgrade ranged attack, and
b) have almost the same hp/cost as lings.
I don't think the diminishing returns argument can be applied because, except in the case of mech, terrans would be foolish to keep their army clustered and the only time you have more lings than you can attack with is when you're trying or are forced to engage in a small choke, in which case I don't think roaches would help you much.
Every time I've tried adding roaches to my midgame composition i've regretted it, because they always seem to die (with that deeply unsatisfying "pop" sound) before they can do anything. Sure they tanked some damage but that in itself is not enough, as you have to sacrifice banelings to get them, and at the end of the engagement I've always felt that just having more lings would have worked out better. Especially since lings are quick enough that they can at least cause some friendly splash, while roaches usually die before they can get 1 hit off.
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Isn't the problem here the synergy between the upgrades and the units being used? Melee and carapace upgrades affect both banelings and lings where as only carapace will be added onto the roaches. Also tanks receive damage bonuses against the armored roaches and they are smaller so the banelings will pop from splash whenever the roaches are hit.
I think a good way to play zerg (or at least to experiment) is to stall with ling/bane/muta until you can take your third/fourth. Then eventually transition into ultra/bane which has at least some potential in wrecking terran armies, although most people probably think this is silly, especially the high tier players (which is why the top tier zergs stick to massing up mutas and harassing the terran until a gaping hole is shown in their defenses, in where they bum rush with ling/banes).
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I agree with the OP. I have been using ling/bling/roach for a few months now and have great success. As far as mutas are concerned...I generally get a spire shortly after lair for defensive reasons...then if I see typical drop/banshee play I morph 5-6 corruptors. Corruptors work very well with this composition as you are more able to meet the army head on. During the fight your 5-6 corruptors take out all their medivacs/banshees (corruptor have higher dps than mutas) as they survive a long time against marines / thors and have a low attack priority.
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Could you give a general outline of the way you're going to go about adding roaches to your composition? What triggers you to throw down a roach warren? Are you skipping mutas and infestors entirely? Are you delaying them? Are you going light on them?
The process of going ling/bling/muta is generally understood, but if you're adding roaches, where are you cutting other gas units?
I like the guide, but please go a little more in depth!
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I forgot to mention that I assume you are cutting resources from the ling/bane and not from mutas.
If you cut mutas terran can go heavier on tanks and add marauders, there's no way you can beat that with a pure ground army.
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Siege's ZvT Guide uses this composition, I'm surprised more people apparently haven't read it... Will edit with the link in a sec.
Here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176625
Probably the best written guide I've ever seen on this site.
And thanks to the OP for this write-up too, the pictures especially were a great touch.
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@Xirroh
@afiddy
Regarding upgrades, for the roaches I tend to go with speed only, not burrow/movement. I've thought about it, but it's difficult to justify the gas cost. I agree that the melee/ranged attack upgrades are at odds with this composition. Personally I have found getting melee attack and carapace is most effective, since the roach is being used primarily in a tanking role. However, if economy permits, or terran is going heavier on mech, I will aim for earlier ranged attack.
@Lobotomist
Very broadly speaking, I tend to treat a factory with add-on as a trigger for the roach den, and a starport as a trigger for a spire (due to the risk of drops). The timing of the baneling nest relative to lair depends on how much early bio pressure the Terran is applying.
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@GreatestThreat
That is a very nice guide, thanks for the link.
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On March 10 2011 09:01 whatthefat wrote:
@GreatestThreat
That is a very nice guide, thanks for the link.
Thank you for reminding me of it with your own thread  .
I think you'll find some of the replays on there especially helpful to making your case.
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On March 10 2011 09:00 whatthefat wrote:
@Lobotomist
Very broadly speaking, I tend to treat a factory with add-on as a trigger for the roach den, and a starport as a trigger for a spire (due to the risk of drops). The timing of the baneling nest relative to lair depends on how much early bio pressure the Terran is applying.
But then, wouldn't you feel that in every TvZ, there is a factory with an add-on for producing siege tanks? I've never played against a terran who didn't have one in the midgame. Personally I would add a roach den if I saw a second factory though.
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So generally you'll be going for a roach warren before a spire? I would think it'd be more effective to get a spire at the usual time, get mutas out and then drop a Roach Warren about when you take your third. Terrans don't usually have the critical mass of tanks until then, and that's about when you get that midgame mineral surplus. You should be able to get a bunch of roaches out in time for them to be pushing your third, if things go normally
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On March 10 2011 07:39 blade55555 wrote:
While I have been recently going muta/ling/bane/roach the reason why roach/bane I think isn't too used is because then terrans can abuse you with drops. They have no fear of muta's intercepting them so they can really abuse drop ship play. Sense there are no scourge there's no other way to really intercept them unless they go near your infestors.
Roach/ling/bane could be good I imagine if it wasn't for terrans that would just abuse the immobility and drop you everywhere which is very annoying especially on these bigger maps. But I have been experimenting with using roaches more as an add on to ling/bane/muta.
This is exactly why roach/ling/bane isn't popular. Mutas shut down any kind of drop play, which is incredibly strong otherwise. It's not like Zergs haven't been trying roach/ling/bane, and Fruitdealer isn't the only Zerg who's had success with that composition. There are many situations where it can be incredibly strong, especially in stopping early Terran pushes. The fact is, however, that in most situations that we are seeing (e.g. non-mech), muta/ling/bane just has less weaknesses than roach/ling/bane.
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Roaches are unbelievably good in ZvT.. most people haven't realized this. They help to:
Tank shots
Do RANGED dps (after a certain amoutn of lings they won't do much)
and spread out banelings like you said.
I almost always drop a roach warren in ZvT and I'll usually get +1 ranged at least. I find that remaxing with roaches rather then ling/bling/muta or w/e is 10000000x better. Lings can't do shit to planetaries... Roaches at 200/200 right after trading armies is incredible
Edit: I just realized that your saying roach/ling/bling... I dont agree with that. I think mutas or at least infestors are absolutely vital to stopping dropship play. What I'm saying is incorporating about 10-15 roaches in your standard ling/bling/muta army and remaxing on 200/200 roaches when you trade armies (get some banelings too for marines).
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@targ
Actually, I think even single factory siege tanks is enough to justify sprinkling a few roaches into the mix. It makes your army so much more robust. Without roaches, defending against a 10 minute siege tank / bio push is doable, but it can be pretty hairy.
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On March 10 2011 13:35 Lobotomist wrote:
So generally you'll be going for a roach warren before a spire? I would think it'd be more effective to get a spire at the usual time, get mutas out and then drop a Roach Warren about when you take your third. Terrans don't usually have the critical mass of tanks until then, and that's about when you get that midgame mineral surplus. You should be able to get a bunch of roaches out in time for them to be pushing your third, if things go normally
That's an ideal scenario, I agree, but it really depends what Terran is doing. Both tech paths are viable IMO, it's just a matter of responding to Terran's build. Some timing pushes are difficult to hold while getting banes and teching to spire.
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On March 10 2011 13:49 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:39 blade55555 wrote:
While I have been recently going muta/ling/bane/roach the reason why roach/bane I think isn't too used is because then terrans can abuse you with drops. They have no fear of muta's intercepting them so they can really abuse drop ship play. Sense there are no scourge there's no other way to really intercept them unless they go near your infestors.
Roach/ling/bane could be good I imagine if it wasn't for terrans that would just abuse the immobility and drop you everywhere which is very annoying especially on these bigger maps. But I have been experimenting with using roaches more as an add on to ling/bane/muta. This is exactly why roach/ling/bane isn't popular. Mutas shut down any kind of drop play, which is incredibly strong otherwise. It's not like Zergs haven't been trying roach/ling/bane, and Fruitdealer isn't the only Zerg who's had success with that composition. There are many situations where it can be incredibly strong, especially in stopping early Terran pushes. The fact is, however, that in most situations that we are seeing (e.g. non-mech), muta/ling/bane just has less weaknesses than roach/ling/bane.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that if Terran is going purely MMM then muta/ling/bane is a superior composition due to the threat of drops (in fact I note in the OP that mutas are required to deal with drops - I'm not suggesting a pure roach/ling/bling composition to the exclusion of anything else). But in my experience, the use of combined bio/mech is becoming more and more prevalent.
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I drop a RW whenever I see an armory that isn't obviouusly for 2/2+. When they are going obvious mech I will go with roach/bane but when they are going marine tank I find that it is hard to justify roaches. I think that if you can get roach/bling to work up til masters and then it kind of peters out because the banes won't do enough damage before the tanks destroy your roach play.
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I personally have been doing this every ZvT recently, and have found it to be amazing.
I actually do what the OP says and have a small flock of mutas (like 7- 8) roaming my opponent's base while making a ton of lings and roaches. I only make banelings when I scout large amounts of marines with my mutas.
And drops aren't too much of a problem if you have good overlord spread and creep spread around your bases for your lings to get there.
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In response to the comments I've added a section to the guide on specific build timings and triggers, including the full build order from the CheckPrime vs. PoltPrime game. This is a good example of holding a scary 10 minute bio/tank push from Terran.
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i dont know how to hide spoilers so, for anyone who hasnt watched the code a finals yet. STOP THIS IS A SPOILER.
basically losira did this same composition against ogssupernova, winning i think 2 or 3 of his best of 7 matches with it. having pure roach/baneling isnt much more expensive then muta/ling/bane, and seeing as how most zergs are way more gas starved than mineral starved, this strat allows for better spending of minerals. mutas can be used to stop drops and gain map control, but production of them usually stops after 8-10.
i think most zergs these days have been playing too defensively, once again refering to the GSL, the zergs who have been making it to the top are actually playing very agressive styles. this build allows for an agressive style because once you saturate 3+ bases you can constantly trade armies with the terran and remax in good time for their counter attack. most of the time, the terran won't even counter attack because their unit production rate is way slower and zerg will just swarm them. its kind of a zerg rule to never engage, especially when theres tanks, but using roach/bane with a superior economy (which zergs should have) and constantly engaging, you can actually trade armies efficiently and remax before the terran even gets half of his army back up.
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Getting roaches doesn't mean you can't get mutalisks either. For 8 roaches you give up 2 mutalisks, you probably had the extra minerals.
Really, the choice is between expanding or roaches, not muta or roaches. You need a spire to deal with anything in the air in the midgame, I don't think anybody disputes that. But plain ling/bane requires some pretty amazing "star sense" with when to engage, whereas roaches let you engage tanks using what you can see plainly.
It also depends on the tank count and their spread, of course. But I think once there's a sizeable amount of tanks, ling/muta/bane can only beat marine/tank if you catch them unsieged or out of position. Roaches allow you to attack into them, without losing so damn much.
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I got the impression from the OP that the idea was adding a dash of roaches to your baneling blob when doing muta baneling to help absorb splash and maybe clean up a few tanks when the marines flee.
Most posts in this thread seem to be discussing a fundimental change in unit composition ie going roaches over muta or something, which is not the same thing.
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Remaxing on roaches after an engagement is usually a disaster when I've tried it; stimmed marine/medivac with whater siege tanks have trickled out just melts mass roach. You need plenty of banelings always.
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A good way for ling/bane/muta players to start incorporating roaches into their unit comp is to drop a roach warren after your spire finishes. After you start producing mutas off of 2 saturated bases, you end up with a large mineral surplus. Roaches are a great way to spend the excess minerals of ling/bane/muta rather than having to drop macro hatcheries.
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Great post!! Its pretty boring to always do blings/lings/mutas against Terran so i think trying this would be fun. Check's build also looks quite fancy so im going to try it for sure heh! Adding some baneling drops/carpet bombs would be make this even better.
+ Show Spoiler +LosirA also did use same unit composition today in Code A finals in every match i think and it seemed to work well
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IMLosirA beat oGsSupernova last night in a best of 7 finals to win Code A so I'm guessing thats where you got the idea to post this thread. LosirA knew that supernova's standard ZvT was blue flame hellions (extremely popular in korea) into marine/tank push. LosirA would always response with a blind roach warren into banelings to deal with the marine/tank. Supernova never changed his build to deal with this composition and NEVER added any mauraders, which are the hard-counter to roaches and are effective against banelings as well. I guess just like all situations you have to change your composition if he starts adding marauders, etc etc.
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Did not read anything as of yet. However, 3100 master noobie T here, going to say YES!
I lose more times than not to early roach aggression into roach sling bling 2 base nasty attacks. A long time ago I'd die when they hit. Now a days I know how to defend, but they push, take a third (about 11 min game time) and have 1/1 before or as I do. Roach vs marine, 2-2 vs 2-2 roaches just plain SHIT on them. I must have tanks, must have. Roaches rock tanks with good flanks and marine style shoot and scoot micro.
Get burrow, and speed asap with fast upgrades and infestors and you FUCK up the entire terran game plan. I'm forced to get tank heavy (6-7+) with fast upgrades on both mech attack and infantry attack/armor as well. I have to get marauders. More medicvacs to heal from heavy roach DPS.
Infact, I got rolled my last ladder session by a 3200 Z who roach -> fe -> roach sling aggression as he took an early 3rd and then 4th. No contest I could do. Close position slag pits, and he opens roaches vs reactor hellions >_<
Roach pressure changes a LOT of game plans for me, personally.
time to read----
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On March 12 2011 11:22 theBIGdog wrote:
IMLosirA beat oGsSupernova last night in a best of 7 finals to win Code A so I'm guessing thats where you got the idea to post this thread.
Well, I posted this a few days ago, but yes, Losira is one of the main proponents of this style in ZvT at the moment.
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You know, I was going to disagree with you until you showed about the speed synergy between roaches and banelings.
That's really cool, and I didn't know it. That alone is reason enough to try this strategy.
However, the only units that banelings aren't super-effective against (marauders, tanks) are super-effective against roaches.
In that respect, wouldn't it be better to simply control your army more efficiently? Speed synergy is nice, but banelings fill a different role than Roaches, and you can't exactly stutter step banelings.
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On March 12 2011 12:42 michaelhasanalias wrote:
In that respect, wouldn't it be better to simply control your army more efficiently? Speed synergy is nice, but banelings fill a different role than Roaches, and you can't exactly stutter step banelings.
The key role of the roaches is shepherding the banelings to the front. Once there, they should be microed separately though (and must be in different control groups), with the banes charging for the marines while the roaches target down tanks.
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So did anyone one See the GSL Code A finals of Losira vs Supernova? Losira (Z) did this style almost exclusively, and it looked very strong. He would transition into mutas on 3 bases (iirc). I suppose it's pretty difficult for terrans to drop you if you're only on two bases, so maybe delaying mutas that long is viable? LINK
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On March 13 2011 09:44 Lobotomist wrote:So did anyone one See the GSL Code A finals of Losira vs Supernova? Losira (Z) did this style almost exclusively, and it looked very strong. He would transition into mutas on 3 bases (iirc). I suppose it's pretty difficult for terrans to drop you if you're only on two bases, so maybe delaying mutas that long is viable? LINK
haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but thanks for ruining it without a spoiler
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Updated with a spoiler warning and a new section on attacking the terran army head on.
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On March 13 2011 10:40 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 09:44 Lobotomist wrote:So did anyone one See the GSL Code A finals of Losira vs Supernova? Losira (Z) did this style almost exclusively, and it looked very strong. He would transition into mutas on 3 bases (iirc). I suppose it's pretty difficult for terrans to drop you if you're only on two bases, so maybe delaying mutas that long is viable? LINK haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but thanks for ruining it without a spoiler
That was days ago. We can't keep information secret forever. If you truly cared, you would have watched by now. Quit whining.
Nice post OP.
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Just liked to bump this topic after noticing well over half of the games at MLG the Zergs went for roaches along with ling/bling in ZvT.
I'm still in doubt, being someone who always avoided roaches in ZvT since beta but it seems really strong.
Very often Zergs went for the Roach Warren right after the Pool or end up throwing down both a Roach Warren and a Baneling Nest (and sometimes an Evo Chamber aswell).
And then went for a very strong attack around 10-12 minutes with a lot of banelings (with speed), roaches (with speed), and speedlings.
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I would just like to comment on the power of early roaches versus early marines. Versus 2 rax pressure, I've found good success with just getting a fast roach warren, and not even bothering with zergling speed until much later.
Without stim, small forces of roaches vs. small forces of marines usually favor the zerg. At this early stage of the game it is quite easy to micro the wounded roaches back, and if you fight on creep the roaches are 30% faster than the marines, so it is easy to do so. A great tactic is to hide your roaches until the terran ventures far on to your creep before showing your roaches at all. Because of the speed differential on creep the marines can have a hard time retreating.
[EDIT: Marines have 45 health not 40, removed previously stated thought]
If the map is small, most of the time after a favorable engagement where the terran loses many marines to my roaches I'll counter attack, as a lot of the time terran tries to expand behind 2 rax pressure. I am usually able to hit before stim, and before Mauraders are out in any number. The terran defense is usually optimized to thwart zerglings, not roaches, so with range 4 I often can snipe buildings, scvs, marines. Bunkers are usually the only good defensive response the terran can make, but a lone bunker at least, can often be avoided.
Before my slow roaches become useless (thanks to tanks,mauraders,stim) I will transition into something else, but I'm quick to go back to roaches if I feel the terran's unit composition warrants it. It usually doesn't hurt to keep a small number of roaches in your army, for reasons that the original @OP suggests.
Spoiler for today's GSL, Zenio vs MKP
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65021MKP floated to the gold to open up the game, and went mass marine off 5 rax, mining no gas. Kyrix tried to defend his FE with speedling/baneling, but MKP's marine micro was too strong, splitting his marines perfectly, making the banes nearly useless. I think if Kyrix had went roach, with not banes, he probably could have held the initial push of marines, transitioning into banes when the marine count got higher.
EDIT: When defending early marines with roaches, having the queen(s) tank a little fire makes a HUGE difference.
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one little thing i guess.
"(3) Due to their speed synergy with banelings and much larger size, roaches uncluster banelings, resulting in less vulnerability to splash damage."
but that's the whole idea! I don't want banelings to be in front of my army, i want them IN the zerglings (a little behind) coz i want that fu**ed up dps of the mariners hit on the zerglings, not banelings. If i do as u say, roaches will stay at range 4 from the mariners. ;(
all in all, nice topic.. worth discusing
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EPT
