EPT[G] Roach/Ling/Bling: More Stable Platform for ZvT - Page 2
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On March 10 2011 07:39 blade55555 wrote: While I have been recently going muta/ling/bane/roach the reason why roach/bane I think isn't too used is because then terrans can abuse you with drops. They have no fear of muta's intercepting them so they can really abuse drop ship play. Sense there are no scourge there's no other way to really intercept them unless they go near your infestors. Roach/ling/bane could be good I imagine if it wasn't for terrans that would just abuse the immobility and drop you everywhere which is very annoying especially on these bigger maps. But I have been experimenting with using roaches more as an add on to ling/bane/muta. This is exactly why roach/ling/bane isn't popular. Mutas shut down any kind of drop play, which is incredibly strong otherwise. It's not like Zergs haven't been trying roach/ling/bane, and Fruitdealer isn't the only Zerg who's had success with that composition. There are many situations where it can be incredibly strong, especially in stopping early Terran pushes. The fact is, however, that in most situations that we are seeing (e.g. non-mech), muta/ling/bane just has less weaknesses than roach/ling/bane. | ||
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justindab0mb
United States213 Posts
Tank shots Do RANGED dps (after a certain amoutn of lings they won't do much) and spread out banelings like you said. I almost always drop a roach warren in ZvT and I'll usually get +1 ranged at least. I find that remaxing with roaches rather then ling/bling/muta or w/e is 10000000x better. Lings can't do shit to planetaries... Roaches at 200/200 right after trading armies is incredible Edit: I just realized that your saying roach/ling/bling... I dont agree with that. I think mutas or at least infestors are absolutely vital to stopping dropship play. What I'm saying is incorporating about 10-15 roaches in your standard ling/bling/muta army and remaxing on 200/200 roaches when you trade armies (get some banelings too for marines). | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
Actually, I think even single factory siege tanks is enough to justify sprinkling a few roaches into the mix. It makes your army so much more robust. Without roaches, defending against a 10 minute siege tank / bio push is doable, but it can be pretty hairy. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On March 10 2011 13:35 Lobotomist wrote: So generally you'll be going for a roach warren before a spire? I would think it'd be more effective to get a spire at the usual time, get mutas out and then drop a Roach Warren about when you take your third. Terrans don't usually have the critical mass of tanks until then, and that's about when you get that midgame mineral surplus. You should be able to get a bunch of roaches out in time for them to be pushing your third, if things go normally That's an ideal scenario, I agree, but it really depends what Terran is doing. Both tech paths are viable IMO, it's just a matter of responding to Terran's build. Some timing pushes are difficult to hold while getting banes and teching to spire. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On March 10 2011 13:49 Saracen wrote: This is exactly why roach/ling/bane isn't popular. Mutas shut down any kind of drop play, which is incredibly strong otherwise. It's not like Zergs haven't been trying roach/ling/bane, and Fruitdealer isn't the only Zerg who's had success with that composition. There are many situations where it can be incredibly strong, especially in stopping early Terran pushes. The fact is, however, that in most situations that we are seeing (e.g. non-mech), muta/ling/bane just has less weaknesses than roach/ling/bane. Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that if Terran is going purely MMM then muta/ling/bane is a superior composition due to the threat of drops (in fact I note in the OP that mutas are required to deal with drops - I'm not suggesting a pure roach/ling/bling composition to the exclusion of anything else). But in my experience, the use of combined bio/mech is becoming more and more prevalent. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
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Cycle
United States300 Posts
I actually do what the OP says and have a small flock of mutas (like 7- 8) roaming my opponent's base while making a ton of lings and roaches. I only make banelings when I scout large amounts of marines with my mutas. And drops aren't too much of a problem if you have good overlord spread and creep spread around your bases for your lings to get there. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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chillswithhippos
United States74 Posts
basically losira did this same composition against ogssupernova, winning i think 2 or 3 of his best of 7 matches with it. having pure roach/baneling isnt much more expensive then muta/ling/bane, and seeing as how most zergs are way more gas starved than mineral starved, this strat allows for better spending of minerals. mutas can be used to stop drops and gain map control, but production of them usually stops after 8-10. i think most zergs these days have been playing too defensively, once again refering to the GSL, the zergs who have been making it to the top are actually playing very agressive styles. this build allows for an agressive style because once you saturate 3+ bases you can constantly trade armies with the terran and remax in good time for their counter attack. most of the time, the terran won't even counter attack because their unit production rate is way slower and zerg will just swarm them. its kind of a zerg rule to never engage, especially when theres tanks, but using roach/bane with a superior economy (which zergs should have) and constantly engaging, you can actually trade armies efficiently and remax before the terran even gets half of his army back up. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Really, the choice is between expanding or roaches, not muta or roaches. You need a spire to deal with anything in the air in the midgame, I don't think anybody disputes that. But plain ling/bane requires some pretty amazing "star sense" with when to engage, whereas roaches let you engage tanks using what you can see plainly. It also depends on the tank count and their spread, of course. But I think once there's a sizeable amount of tanks, ling/muta/bane can only beat marine/tank if you catch them unsieged or out of position. Roaches allow you to attack into them, without losing so damn much. | ||
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THE_oldy
Australia97 Posts
Most posts in this thread seem to be discussing a fundimental change in unit composition ie going roaches over muta or something, which is not the same thing. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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TR
2320 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + LosirA also did use same unit composition today in Code A finals in every match i think and it seemed to work well  | ||
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theBIGdog
United States41 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
I lose more times than not to early roach aggression into roach sling bling 2 base nasty attacks. A long time ago I'd die when they hit. Now a days I know how to defend, but they push, take a third (about 11 min game time) and have 1/1 before or as I do. Roach vs marine, 2-2 vs 2-2 roaches just plain SHIT on them. I must have tanks, must have. Roaches rock tanks with good flanks and marine style shoot and scoot micro. Get burrow, and speed asap with fast upgrades and infestors and you FUCK up the entire terran game plan. I'm forced to get tank heavy (6-7+) with fast upgrades on both mech attack and infantry attack/armor as well. I have to get marauders. More medicvacs to heal from heavy roach DPS. Infact, I got rolled my last ladder session by a 3200 Z who roach -> fe -> roach sling aggression as he took an early 3rd and then 4th. No contest I could do. Close position slag pits, and he opens roaches vs reactor hellions >_< Roach pressure changes a LOT of game plans for me, personally. time to read---- | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On March 12 2011 11:22 theBIGdog wrote: IMLosirA beat oGsSupernova last night in a best of 7 finals to win Code A so I'm guessing thats where you got the idea to post this thread. Well, I posted this a few days ago, but yes, Losira is one of the main proponents of this style in ZvT at the moment. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
That's really cool, and I didn't know it. That alone is reason enough to try this strategy. However, the only units that banelings aren't super-effective against (marauders, tanks) are super-effective against roaches. In that respect, wouldn't it be better to simply control your army more efficiently? Speed synergy is nice, but banelings fill a different role than Roaches, and you can't exactly stutter step banelings. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On March 12 2011 12:42 michaelhasanalias wrote: In that respect, wouldn't it be better to simply control your army more efficiently? Speed synergy is nice, but banelings fill a different role than Roaches, and you can't exactly stutter step banelings. The key role of the roaches is shepherding the banelings to the front. Once there, they should be microed separately though (and must be in different control groups), with the banes charging for the marines while the roaches target down tanks. | ||
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