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@NeonFox: Yes man! Essentially the same build and I tested getting both +1 and ranged attack in time for the push....what I have discovered through trial and error is that it is more efficient at this early stage push to just get the ranged attack and save the gas for +1 for a couple extra hydras..when you are working with a limited # of hydras such as would be in both yours and my case, it does more good to have the additional few hydras rather than have the extra point of attack. The overall DPS turns out to be greater  Great input though as I will head back to the drawing board to see if I can't calculate a way that would be more efficient.
Oh also I forgot to mention, getting speed, lair, and range without +1 allows the attack to occur significantly earlier than if I had gotten it. This drastically effects the build as the timing is the most crucial part!
@HanziZGodly Glad to hear I could help at least one person out. Perhaps we'll be the only ones and a counter won't arise as quickly as I originally speculated!
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Looks interesting... my question is what happens if you're 4-gated? Let's assume you couldn't scout 2 or 3 of the gateways due to wall-off. Other than that, looks interesting in theory, sorta wanna try it.
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I hate to be offtopic but out of interest, did I just play you in ladder?
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NEVERMIND I AM A MORON... it says FE in the title. Wow. I am going blind.
Definitely gonna give this a shot. My guess is HT don't come out in time, right?
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On March 05 2011 23:11 FairForever wrote:
NEVERMIND I AM A MORON... it says FE in the title. Wow. I am going blind.
Definitely gonna give this a shot. My guess is HT don't come out in time, right?
Yeah, your economy won't be able to support HT's that fast.
edit: Or you won't have enough storms to kill the hydra ling army.
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Basically the exact build vs fast Phoenix as well.
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Yea your questions were all pretty much answered by one another or by.......reading the title..anyway I will now be updating the replay links with some new replays and the addition of game text commentary to explain my thoughts behind each modification to the standard build you may see in a couple games
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Looks like a solid build, I have been trying to find a way to punish the early FE on maps like metal and I hadn't found a way yet due to the crazy number of FFs but I was not even thinking about hydras because they move across the map so slowly. I will definitely give this a try because in ZvP if you can't punish the expo you have to take a really fast third (7:00) and try to throw units at their third and if they get it up its pretty much over IMHO. So difficult to deal with a good player with many FFs.
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Finally, I can 2hatch hydra bust Protoss FE. Nice work. What specific weaknesses have you seen, though? Like, what has happened in the games you've lost?
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Am I missing something I could have sworn zerg does not have a hydra range increase upgrade.....?
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On March 06 2011 01:00 BabeSlayer wrote:
Am I missing something I could have sworn zerg does not have a hydra range increase upgrade.....?
Yep, they do.
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On March 06 2011 00:59 Shron wrote:
Finally, I can 2hatch hydra bust Protoss FE. Nice work. What specific weaknesses have you seen, though? Like, what has happened in the games you've lost?
3gate FE will have enough stuff to hold you off if you try to bust him down.
Against Stargate Openers: Hydra Timing push is very scary because he doesn't have Carriers and Hydras beat any other air than Carriers effectively.
Against Fast Nexus or Forge/Nexus, I just tend to get Overlord Speed, Overlord Drop and Snipe his main Nexus on 2base. Has worked every time I've faced against Forge FE. You need to be careful against Colossus transitions as they can still kill you.
My opinions on the matter.
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Canada13430 Posts
Hmm.. I don't know. If you play against a standard protoss who goes 3 gate FE into Robo and the protoss scouts no roaches, the Toss is just going to go straight to collossus. If scouts fast hydras then going for a quick range upgrade is a really good investment if the gas will allow for a 2nd colo and range to build at the same time.
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On March 06 2011 01:04 Shron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 01:00 BabeSlayer wrote:
Am I missing something I could have sworn zerg does not have a hydra range increase upgrade.....? Yep, they do.
for some reason i was thinking that was a speed upgrade....lol wow I fail.
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@ Airact: Its real positive thinking to think that a 3 gate Fe will hold this off but its highly improbably. I've used it many times against this and this build works well against it. Against any stargate openers (including carriers---I'm not sure why anyone in the right mind would ever try to go carriers that fast anyways?!?!) it works extremely well as you said.
@ZeromuS: Check out one of the many replays where the protoss go for colossus. Even with scouting hydra its hard to get more than 1 (maximum 2) colossus out at that early time and it is impossible for them to have thermal lance (unless you sacrafice a massive amount of ground army and tech straight there.)
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On March 06 2011 02:51 BabeSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 01:04 Shron wrote:On March 06 2011 01:00 BabeSlayer wrote:
Am I missing something I could have sworn zerg does not have a hydra range increase upgrade.....? Yep, they do. for some reason i was thinking that was a speed upgrade....lol wow I fail.
Thats broodwar. :D
I keep looking for which building lets you make lurkers. lol
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@Shron: Like I've said before, at this point I've only lost a single game using this build against protoss and that is the last replay in the replay pack....it wasn't any different from any other 3 gate forge sentry FE other than the fact that I shouldn't have attacked when I did because my macro slipped when he put on that stupid pressure and I didn't make up for it. As for weaknesses other than poor macro, any extremely aggressive all-in 1 based play would be a challenge to deal with but it is possible. I'm hoping no clear cut counter arises anytime soon honestly....Check out the replays, their really informative.
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On March 06 2011 03:19 TRod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 02:51 BabeSlayer wrote:On March 06 2011 01:04 Shron wrote:On March 06 2011 01:00 BabeSlayer wrote:
Am I missing something I could have sworn zerg does not have a hydra range increase upgrade.....? Yep, they do. for some reason i was thinking that was a speed upgrade....lol wow I fail. Thats broodwar. :D I keep looking for which building lets you make lurkers. lol
Agreed, Hydras feel incomplete without Lurkers T_T
I still stand by my opinion: While a Hydra timing attack might threaten the Protoss, it shouldn't do any major damage. On short distances and an Overlord Highway it becomes much more threatening tho', but on Average - Long rush distance, the Protoss shouldn't just die to it.
Overall Hydras are a timing push oriented unit and they fit fine in many Timing attacks the Zerg might do but I think it's pretty safe to say that a Hydra attack won't do much damage against almost the safest Protoss build in SC2. Unless the Protoss completely skips unit production and goes Stargate.
It's a very doable push because you expand to your 3rd as you push so it's not even near All-In.
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Replay 2 with Keo isn't hydra ling at all. He goes for a 3 gate Sentry expand.
You cancel your expo and one-base roach cheese him xD
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Again I've uploaded the incorrect replay....Fixing now lol
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EPT
