Hello my name is Zerg. As you may expect I am a Zerg player currently just getting back into Starcraft 2 after a month off of getting my college work in line. For the past few weeks I've been developing a build which I've repeatedly considered posting here on the TL forums for the Zerg community to exploit. The only reason I resisted was that it always turns out that any build that is put on here and ultimately popularized ends up becoming too popular and is inevitably routinely planned for and hard countered in a matter of no time by all of the races affected. However, I've become more lenient considering my fellow swarm are under a lot of pressure from Aiur therefore I would like to present to you Zerg's Hydra/ling vs Protoss FE 10 minute timing push.
Before I get bashed with people telling me that hydras and lings have been being used forever, I urge you to consider the way I do things (by looking at all the replays---or some) and then comment on the post. I guarantee you that you will be amazed or frightened (whether you are Zerg or Protoss ). Anywho the theory behind the Build came when I noticed 3 main FE builds coming from the protoss...either the 3-gate sentry expand, 2 gate stargate expand or the 15 nexus expand (sometimes these include a forge or not). All of these resist the common zerg pressure of roach/ling/baneling or any combo of those via cannon/sentry/force field/voidray usage. These all in someway prevent the zerg from getting in range and actually harming the protoss......That was the basis for the build and I could go into much more of the technicals except I don't want a TL;DR from everyone so I proudly bring to you Zergs Hydraling 10 min push:
14 Extractor 14 Pool ---get ling speed with first 100 gas immediately 15 overlord 16 Queen ---get 4 lings and destroy scout/clear natural for expo ---scout for Protoss FE ~20-22 Expand to Natural ---with second 100 gas get Lair IMMEDIATELY ---when lair starts immediately put down 2nd gas and put 3 drones on it when finished ---when your 2nd hatchery finishes transfer half your drones to it from your main ---drone up your 2 bases to about 31-35 drones total From here on the build is extremely flexible, but you have to make sure you do a few KEY things: ---get hydra den right when lair finishes and get +1 TO HYDRA RANGE (**important**) ---try to keep scouts out as best you can ---you want to pump out about 14-15 hydras and 20-30 lings
At ~10:10 game time, you should start pushing out across the map for the enemies (Rarely however, the attack time does change-> see replays and comments)
Edit: I've been asked to discuss the tactics when you reach the enemy...First off, you must realize you have hydras with 6 range...That is the range of any protoss unit so FF wont be much of a problem...But what you want to try to do is get your lings in without them being FF'ed away and use your hydras to target the zealots first, then the sentries/stalkers and pylons. In some circumstances, the protoss can have a single colossus out. Fortunately, they will not be able to get range in time so it won't be a problem. But of course, if there is one you must focus fire it down and proceed as usual. Then the pylons powering the warp gates and your golden from there!!!
THIS TIMING IS CRUCIAL....this is the point where the protoss will be the most vulnerable. I guarantee to you this fact has been worked out..
So in summary: 1.) Build Hydra/Ling 2.) Move Out at 10:10 3.) ????????? 4.) Profit!
I swear to you give this a try on a FE protoss ( even works well on non-FE protoss....seriously). It works very well. I will attach a bunch replays of just a few of the times I've performed this build.....its worked on high diamond to very good masters players. If you want more replays and proof of this PM me or friend me on bnet at Zerg.600 If you have a specific request for a replay of this build performing against a certain strategy that is not already in the replays, post in the thread and I bet I can find one.
1.) Zerg(Diamond) vs FruitJuice(Diamond). He goes 3 gate sentry forge expand and builds a stargate. Pumps out pheonixes and gets his +1 attack for ground units. This is a textbook example of the way the build should be done in this circumstance:
2.) Zerg vs Keo (Masters League). He goes 3 gate sentry forge fast expand and also gets +1 attack. He however transitions into robotics bay instead of Stargate. At ~9 minutes he does a characteristic Sentry/Zealot and a few stalker attack. To answer a asked below it seems like this is a good example to the ability of this build to hold a sentry/zealot attack at around 7-8 minutes as well:
3.) Zerg vs Fish (Diamond 200 games with 65% win rate=good). I posted this build because it is an excellent example of how easy it is to transition out of this build and attests to the fact that it is by no means all in. He goes 2 gate into stargate/voidray expand. Gets 2 voids and 1 pheonix and moves to 3 gate/stargate/forge. My hydra/ling build does as it is suppose to and the transition into the mid-game is smooth as I am placed far in the lead:
4.) Zerg vs Zero (Rank 4 3100 Diamond). He does 3 gate sentry expand into starport. In this instance I believed that he was hiding a four gate and as you can see I proceeded to prepare some defense (this was done very easily because of the flexibility and the lack of commitment to the build needed ). Soon I notice I was wrong and convert back my build where I proceed to carry it out at a slightly later time. He had gone stargate after the expo and at seeing my hydras with an observer attempted to switch to Collosus...he failed:
5.) Zerg vs ChiCaNery (Masters League). I was in a tournament for Z33K.com and I played two games against him. Unfortunately, the first game on Slag Pits creates an error when I try to upload it on sc2replayed therefore I only have the 2nd of the best of 3. The 1st game he went 3-gate into stargate and got 5-6 pheonixes which were unable to hurt me (hydras). He expanded and tech'd to collosus and when my push hit at around 10:30 his mainly gateway army with 6 pheonixes and a collosus was unable to hold. This is game two where I demonstrate the versatility of the build in that it is not only easily transitioned out of (as in Zerg vs Fish) but when you do early game damage to a protoss, this build is a highly reliable path to transition into and almost guarantee's you a win:
6.) Zerg vs PlayerOne (3k+ rank one diamond). He went 2 gate stargate and got 1 voidray to expand. He harasses and transitions into 2 more gates (4 gates) and a robo. Key in this is that I went for the attack at around 10:10 and I plainly didn't like what I saw. I didn't like the probability that I would win that fight...So I pulled back and returned 1 minute, 8 hydras and 10 lings later and his gateway, voidray and single collosus couldn't hold:
7.) Zerg vs Atlas (Diamond 3000 rank 15). He goes 3 gate sentry forge FE.......again......I thought he was 4-gating for a bit so I layed some defense and eventually realized he wasn't. Thus I moved out slightly later (as the 4 spine crawlers set me behind) and still mowed down his gate/collosus army, of course, by focusing the collosus first (which wont have thermal lance):
8.) Zerg vs Ahkko (3k rank 8 diamond). Another textbook execution of my build where the protoss techs to collosus by the time I get there. Focus fire collosus=win:
9.) Zerg vs DesuBear(New Diamond with 150 games at 67% win). People have criticized this player and said hes bad when in fact he is quite a skilled player that was vastly mistaken. He goes 2 gate robo teching to immortals b/c he thinks that I'm going roach (like ever zerg). He gets collosus when he notices and has thrown down an expo when I hit....focus collosus and I'm home free:
10.) FINALLY LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST is Zerg vs Spiralface (3k+ rank 6 diamond). What is unique about this game is it is THE ONLY GAME I HAVE LOST TO PROTOSS SINCE I"VE DEVELOPED THIS BUILD.......probably the 1 out the 13 to 14 times. I will say this honestly and you can judge for yourself but I shouldn't have lost this game if I just did what I've been doing. However, I made the fatal error to, instead of sit back and get more units after his attack, engage immediately and forget about the 1000 minerals and 400 gas in my bank. We exchange armies and two base each other at which point I don't expand and my macro slips......bad game on my part but indeed my one and only loss:
Honestly, I've used this build about 15 times and I've only lost 1 game for mistakes on my part. There are minor adjustments and changes and possibly different moves in each replay but the concept remains largely the same and identical in most. The changes were only minor, sensible changes to account for my enemies actions. Give it a try...leave your comments....Goodluck and Good Day!!!!!!
If you can attack the Protoss before he has his colossus out then this is a great strat.
However, if P gets colossus out you're going to need both Roach and Corruptor. If you use this strat, you're not going to have Roach Warren or Spire so things are gonna get difficult.
@Village Idiot: At this time the protoss can have a max of 1 collosus out and they WILL NOT have range. I've included some replays inside where the protoss does just that. This build absolutely stomps that as well. You just have to make sure to focus fire the collosus with you lings and closer hydras and you will bring it down in no time.
@ Let it Raine: Getting 1/1 I have tried, but as it turns out the delay and usage of gas actually puts you in a worse postion in terms of timing. Give this a try and you will see it is much more effective then the 1/1 timing attack. At the 14 mins that that attack comes at the protoss will have 2-3 collosus because he will have certainly scouted and prepared for you with extended thermal lance. Give it a try and get back to me
Holy crap this looks epic. I have to try this out. Kinda sick of always using roaches. 14-1 is extremely good, assuming the opponents were same skill level. This strat looks extremely strong. Thanks for sharing.
In fact, according to rank, the opponents were a much higher skill level than I. I had an easier time taking out high master than low master or high diamond. If you've ever heard Tastosis talking about how certain builds only work against "smart" players who overthink situations and are tricked by the look of builds, this is what their talking about.
@aliciakeys: Sorry to keep posting on this but I like to answer to people objections...makes for constructive conversation. But, contrary to what you believe, hydras in fact do have higher DPS than roaches. Even if they didn't, the point of using hydras over roaches is not only because they deal higher damage, but they also have 6 range when upgraded thus negate the effects of Force fields which are a common defense by protoss. Also, hydras counter void rays which are another common units protoss uses when Fast expanding. Additionally, the build is not all in as you may think. If the attack for some reason fails, you will have at least destroyed their entire army as well as taken out part or all of their expansion.
honestly, this isn't exactly a revolutionary idea. breaking a toss expand at certain timings has always been somewhat easy. i'll try it in a few practice games. thanks dood.
If this build does so well against good players, why did you upload these demos then? I don't mean to be rude but seems like you're beating people who are just playing much worse than you are, and most of them you could have easily broken by rushing with basically any unit combination.
I don't take anything as being rude and I see where your objections may be coming from but I must point out....sentries and void-rays are a common application in conjunction with a protoss fast expand. Rushing with any unit combination may have worked in a select few of the situations but if you factor in all the possible situations including use of voidrays, well placed forcefields, pheonixes and collosus, hydras are certainly the optimal unit and by far the most effective to attack with during this timing. When it comes down the playing players worse than I, I can tell you that I am only a 3k diamond player just returned from a break. Honestly, I will tell you that many of those players were much better than I in terms of skill and if I had played a normal macro game against them I certainly would have had alot more trouble, if not lost entirely. This build is a solid zerg timing attack in my honest opinion that takes advantage of the current strategies and mindset being used against zerg.
How does this deal with a protoss zealot/sentry push at 7-8 minutes (assuming they made 6-7 sentries) or with a closed entrance that is heavily cannoned?
I can't really tell if you're being completely serious or not. The logic behind the idea sounds really good, but some of the replays aren't supporting the idea of the thread.
1 is against a horrible player 1 is going off of your own build/strategy (Banes and mass Roach) 1 is a PvT 1 is a TvT
But yea, at least in the first few replays you show what you are talking about. You get there in time before the Thermal Lance is done and they have 1 Colossus, and you win fairly decisively. I'm not completely convinced, however.
@DImported: The protoss zealot/sentry push that comes with a 3 gate FE really isn't that strong and from my experience isn't meant to win the game rather than to force the zerg into making units instead of droning up....depending on how early it comes you should have enough lings..possibly a few hydras to stop it. In this case I would generally make a few more hydras (say 5-6 on top of the 4 you should have) and push out quickly with about 10 hydras and 20 lings as early as you possible can(even before the 10:10min mark). This way they shouldn't have enough time to adjust to the strategy.
@VashTS I'm so glad you told me this so that I can fix that.....Obviously I uploaded a few of the wrong replays. On the other hand, I just selected a bunch of the times I did the build and posted those replays rather than sifting through them to find the best players and the best times where I did the build perfectly. Honestly, right now I will fix these and throw up replays from players that are better than the one that concerns you. If you could PM me the one with the "horrible" player I will replace it with a much better one. On the other hand, I purposely threw a few replays in where I go off track to display the flexibility and "uncommittedness?!?!" of its structure (thats not a word but I think you know what I mean.)
Btw, this is not a sarcastic post by any means and I am truly serious about the lethality of this build when done correctly
I do a build like this ZvP on scrap station, same as you but I ad an evo chamber when I start lair and get +1 range attack, finishes in time for the push and hydras scale very well with upgrades. I start breaking the rocks with my first few lings and get a creep highway between the rocks with the 2 first tumors. Since most toss FE or go air on this map it's very effective, I lost very few games using this.
@NeonFox: Yes man! Essentially the same build and I tested getting both +1 and ranged attack in time for the push....what I have discovered through trial and error is that it is more efficient at this early stage push to just get the ranged attack and save the gas for +1 for a couple extra hydras..when you are working with a limited # of hydras such as would be in both yours and my case, it does more good to have the additional few hydras rather than have the extra point of attack. The overall DPS turns out to be greater Great input though as I will head back to the drawing board to see if I can't calculate a way that would be more efficient. Oh also I forgot to mention, getting speed, lair, and range without +1 allows the attack to occur significantly earlier than if I had gotten it. This drastically effects the build as the timing is the most crucial part!
@HanziZGodly Glad to hear I could help at least one person out. Perhaps we'll be the only ones and a counter won't arise as quickly as I originally speculated!
Looks interesting... my question is what happens if you're 4-gated? Let's assume you couldn't scout 2 or 3 of the gateways due to wall-off. Other than that, looks interesting in theory, sorta wanna try it.
Yea your questions were all pretty much answered by one another or by.......reading the title..anyway I will now be updating the replay links with some new replays and the addition of game text commentary to explain my thoughts behind each modification to the standard build you may see in a couple games
Looks like a solid build, I have been trying to find a way to punish the early FE on maps like metal and I hadn't found a way yet due to the crazy number of FFs but I was not even thinking about hydras because they move across the map so slowly. I will definitely give this a try because in ZvP if you can't punish the expo you have to take a really fast third (7:00) and try to throw units at their third and if they get it up its pretty much over IMHO. So difficult to deal with a good player with many FFs.
Finally, I can 2hatch hydra bust Protoss FE. Nice work. What specific weaknesses have you seen, though? Like, what has happened in the games you've lost?
On March 06 2011 00:59 Shron wrote: Finally, I can 2hatch hydra bust Protoss FE. Nice work. What specific weaknesses have you seen, though? Like, what has happened in the games you've lost?
3gate FE will have enough stuff to hold you off if you try to bust him down.
Against Stargate Openers: Hydra Timing push is very scary because he doesn't have Carriers and Hydras beat any other air than Carriers effectively.
Against Fast Nexus or Forge/Nexus, I just tend to get Overlord Speed, Overlord Drop and Snipe his main Nexus on 2base. Has worked every time I've faced against Forge FE. You need to be careful against Colossus transitions as they can still kill you.
Hmm.. I don't know. If you play against a standard protoss who goes 3 gate FE into Robo and the protoss scouts no roaches, the Toss is just going to go straight to collossus. If scouts fast hydras then going for a quick range upgrade is a really good investment if the gas will allow for a 2nd colo and range to build at the same time.
@ Airact: Its real positive thinking to think that a 3 gate Fe will hold this off but its highly improbably. I've used it many times against this and this build works well against it. Against any stargate openers (including carriers---I'm not sure why anyone in the right mind would ever try to go carriers that fast anyways?!?!) it works extremely well as you said.
@ZeromuS: Check out one of the many replays where the protoss go for colossus. Even with scouting hydra its hard to get more than 1 (maximum 2) colossus out at that early time and it is impossible for them to have thermal lance (unless you sacrafice a massive amount of ground army and tech straight there.)
@Shron: Like I've said before, at this point I've only lost a single game using this build against protoss and that is the last replay in the replay pack....it wasn't any different from any other 3 gate forge sentry FE other than the fact that I shouldn't have attacked when I did because my macro slipped when he put on that stupid pressure and I didn't make up for it. As for weaknesses other than poor macro, any extremely aggressive all-in 1 based play would be a challenge to deal with but it is possible. I'm hoping no clear cut counter arises anytime soon honestly....Check out the replays, their really informative.
for some reason i was thinking that was a speed upgrade....lol wow I fail.
Thats broodwar. :D
I keep looking for which building lets you make lurkers. lol
Agreed, Hydras feel incomplete without Lurkers T_T
I still stand by my opinion: While a Hydra timing attack might threaten the Protoss, it shouldn't do any major damage. On short distances and an Overlord Highway it becomes much more threatening tho', but on Average - Long rush distance, the Protoss shouldn't just die to it.
Overall Hydras are a timing push oriented unit and they fit fine in many Timing attacks the Zerg might do but I think it's pretty safe to say that a Hydra attack won't do much damage against almost the safest Protoss build in SC2. Unless the Protoss completely skips unit production and goes Stargate.
It's a very doable push because you expand to your 3rd as you push so it's not even near All-In.
2 base hydra pushes are always strong if you don't get pressured early. The reason why people never got hydras is because of the slow of creep mind set which isn't true ^^. Its pretty much like in bw the bane of the fast expand as you can snipe the buildings used for the wallin for free and all the toss can do is try to slow the push until the heavy weapons arrive.there is really a nice timing for this if the toss got sentrys or some other gassy units. good to see some zergs are going the right way I really love games when zerg starts to pressure and not only try to win the macro game. Now more harassment from the toss and i will be happy :3.
You can time the +1 range to finish at the same time as the range upgrade if you put the evo chamber down soon enough, when the lair is building works well. But since it's on Scrap I don't need ovie speed for the highway, so maybe it only works on this map. Keep updating when you calculated!
Thanks for your support fey fey. NeonFox, the only reason I don't get +1 damage is because for the amount of hydras your going to be making, getting a few extra hydras does result in higher damage rather than getting +1 attack and lacking the 2-3 hydras this early in the game.
Seems pretty viable, I've seen it done few times in the ladder now, managed to block it by engaging in the middle and delaying until few cannons were up, looks like it won't work though if they do a delayed style of 4 gate pushing instead of FE with forge with the expo earlier than you expect at your timing, but great strat. better watch out as protoss
No problemo man. I just want to make sure I can get this out to as many zerg players as possible. Gives us some flexibility and excitement in our play styles
Ever add banelings in this mix? I like the option to go for a bust or wipe out a warp-in of zealots, but micro and good FFs > me :/ Curious if you think the flexibility is worth giving up some time on the push, or if there's a good time to squeeze it in, like during lair upgrade maybe?
Funny that you mention this because as I was practicing this build with my clan member, I explained to him why the Hydra/ling mix does well against sentry forcefields and zealots. As you run the lings in first the tendency of the protoss player is to FF the lings away from the sentries thus as the slow hydras lag in after, the force fields generally no longer inhibit them. When we played, he was smart and used what I told him and ignored the lings to FF my hydras out of postition and allow the lings to get in. This actually resulted in decrease success of the build itself. Therefore, I was thinking what if I were to incorporate in some banelings with the lings so that the sentries would be forced to FF them instead of the hydras....otherwise both the sentries and zealots would suffer alot......BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!! I will report on the results sooon
hmmmm..... it seems very fragile... i mean, it seems like theres a low drone count throughout the game, and your massing too early an army... its very hanbang i think, and if your opponent does pump out a collossuss or 2,.... wheres your spire? i dunno, i havnt tried the build yet, ill probably try it in a custom game here soon, but it seems very "All-iny"
i mean this in the most respectful way possible, feel free to respond with giving me a better understanding of your economical situation at the time of attack ;D
I must say I really like this strat. you can really put a hurt on the protoss!
But I encountered a few problems. Well one in particular....
First game I try it, im up a master (i think he was off racing, so he was probably equivalent to my 2K2 diamond level). I think my execution is pretty close to perfect (youll correct me on that).
Scout a Forge FE, id say to myself, wow, bloody perfect :D
And then... He goes for 2 base 2 stargate mass phenix. And my push gets raped worse than a kinky nurse in a prison riot (that's pretty bad).
However, I end up droning like a mad man, around 45 drone with a lot of spines to hold off any early pressure (FE sentry push), and I don't have any problem since you will end up high in minirals, I get an expo before the push and it works really great.
My question is: Will this stop a 6 gate timing push? I didn't check all the replies, but I would like to get an answer from you guys
ive been doing this for a while now, i have enterd masters league and such a build havent failed me yet.
i sometimes avoid to get the lingspeed to get my lair even faster (been struggling alot with early phenoix pressure and found queens failing on that purpose) getting the lair earlier prevents any fast stargate harrass, allows a faster hydra den and range upgrade. nonspeedligns when used adequatly still do the job and you can push BEFORE any colosus is out. this can be done with a 15 pool 15 hatch opening then gaz, most toss will interpret this as a roach oriented build which will lead them into 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand most of the time. accurate toss will see hydraling coming if you take gaz too early(gaz before pool is too uncommon against toss, they will suspect).
past the first push, if toss resist - he will struggle hard - (cause some do see it coming like i said) muta is an EXCELLENT tech switch and will give the finishing move.
On March 07 2011 03:36 crazyweasel wrote: IM glad to finally see someone pst about this!
ive been doing this for a while now, i have enterd masters league and such a build havent failed me yet.
i sometimes avoid to get the lingspeed to get my lair even faster (been struggling alot with early phenoix pressure and found queens failing on that purpose) getting the lair earlier prevents any fast stargate harrass, allows a faster hydra den and range upgrade. nonspeedligns when used adequatly still do the job and you can push BEFORE any colosus is out. this can be done with a 15 pool 15 hatch opening then gaz, most toss will interpret this as a roach oriented build which will lead them into 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand most of the time. accurate toss will see hydraling coming if you take gaz too early(gaz before pool is too uncommon against toss, they will suspect).
past the first push, if toss resist - he will struggle hard - (cause some do see it coming like i said) muta is an EXCELLENT tech switch and will give the finishing move.
will post replays.
I just want to point out, gas before pool as in 14gas/14pool is currently the standard in the pro-scene versus toss at the moment, as well as high masters.
Yes but the standart opening is not keeping drone on gaz bro, pro's only do this for fast lingspeed(typical dimaga's opening). i shoulve mentioned that Keeping drones on gaz with an early gaz against Toss is unusual. my bad
14 Extractor 14 Pool ---get ling speed with first 100 gas immediately 15 overlord 16 Queen ---get 4 lings and destroy scout/clear natural for expo ---scout for Protoss FE ~20-22 Expand to Natural ---with second 100 gas get Lair IMMEDIATELY ---when lair starts immediately put down 2nd gas and put 3 drones on it when finished ---when your 2nd hatchery finishes transfer half your drones to it from your main ---drone up your 2 bases to about 31-35 drones total From here on the build is extremely flexible, but you have to make sure you do a few KEY things: ---get hydra den right when lair finishes and get +1 TO HYDRA RANGE (**important**) ---try to keep scouts out as best you can ---you want to pump out about 14-15 hydras and 20-30 lings
Watched first 2 of your replays - in both of them you did not get lair with your second 100 gas... you waited till about 150-200. You didn't get the hydra range either. I notice you cut at 30 drones in game 1 and 26 drones in game 2, it seemed to work ok but you do build alot of lings early on, which I think there's no need for since he's doing a 3gate expand he won't attack you till at least 8 mins (if earlier it will be just to poke). I feel, those larvae could have went into drones instead. But with hydra builds they are quite vulnerable before the lair finishes, so the extra lings aren't too bad of an idea.
I'm going to try and refine/tweak it a bit and experiment with some timings, I feel with your current build the lair can be delayed a few secores to pump more drones before cutting and switching to hydra production, and also of course need to take into account the +1 range upgrade which you didn't research in your games.
@Kevlar622: Yes your right in saying the drone count is relatively low for what a zerg should have, but if you were to put this in respect to a hard protoss 1 base push it's about on par. Also, the success rate it has in beating the opponent (90% in my cases) or at least severely crippling him (check out the game vs Fish on Shattered) will almost most certainly put you ahead if you don't win straight out at that point. So in one respect, yes it is "all inny" but, in my opinion, the pros too far outweigh the cons for me to label it as that.
@bdair2002: There is one replay, I believe, where I go up against a 6 gate and I win. I can't say I truly have enough experience with that to make the call for sure, as I don't know exactly when that timing push comes or what the consistency of the protoss army would be as far as his stalker:sentry:zealot ratio. I guess that would be entirely up to the protoss.....lemme see what I can find....
@FreeUrMind: I think the your missing the element there guy....the only point I intended to get across by including that replay is that it can reasonably be transitioned into off early pressure where you gain that upper hand and have to decide whether to sit back, expand and try to get further ahead or try to hastily and half-heatedly throw a push together to finish him off.....Easy way to do it is to do a build (this build)....that is absolutely sure to take the win for you. I've seen plenty of games where the zergs done some serious damage with lings and rushed to some roaches only to have the protoss even it out with a lucky couple of voidrays. I had a replay from that tournament for the 1st game I played against him and contrary to your all mighty and knowing knowledge from the single game you've seen him play, he's not a terrible player chief.
@asmo.0: It works great vs. 3 gate expo.....watch one of the 4 replays I put up of them doing it.....
@Valckrie: Many of the replays I was very far from perfect indeed. I glad you could point that out so I could point it out that it still worked very well. The ones that I put "textbook build" next too are the way it should be carried out.
@crazyweasel: To each his own....but I love the mobility and map control you get early game with speed lings. I havent had too much trouble with early pheonix or ground pressure if they are expanding.
@Douillos: Edit: Ok I watched your replay and I first want to say that you really carried the build out very nicely...Your timings and everything were almost exactly as I said but I have to say a few things: 1.) No biggie but you had 2 drones on first gas for a bit.....really not big but its the first thing I wrote on my piece of paper 2.) Although I've never actually played against a straight up forge into Nexus, I must say that you could have easily won this had you scouted him out a little more in the beginning. He had absolutely no defense to prevent you from running into his main base with 10 lings and killing all his probes for the longest time. You wouldn't have been able to get his expo but that's when you should have transitioned into this. Watch my Zerg vs Chicanery game. Your never really committed to this build and with a gaping chasm like that in his build you really could have exploited it. 3.) I mentioned in one of the replay comments that if you see a pheonix come out, your allowed to move out much earlier than you would otherwise....they invest so much in a unit that is practically worthless by itself and with the build your going, it completely (or in theory) counters low pheonix amounts (even high pheonix counts really.) You could have walked right over while rallying zerglings and gone straight into his main base to end the game 30 seconds earlier. 4.) Make sure you fly an overlord in to see what he's doing....you really lacked scouting that game (Yes, even with a build as strong as this we sometimes are forced to ). 5.) After your first attack you should always get a spire up ASAP with this build. I know he was going mass pheonix, but most protoss will be gunning for collosus and you must anticipate that instantly. Also, some corrupters really would have helped you out. 6.) That protoss should be a zerg player because he expanded like a wild fire. He had 4 bases with the gold when you were just getting your 3rd saturated. You did start out behind because you did get much in your attack-> gotta go for the main in a situation like that.
***Really though, you carried that build out more precise than I ever did but I think in the end that's what actually got you. You still need to be looking for those opportunities for easy ways to get ahead. Most of the time I guarantee you'll straight up win (he did a rare, really odd build) but you get those speedlings in the beginning to get map control and for putting some pressure on to get you more ahead.....Good job anyway and if you keep trying you won't regret....Good Luck
This is a good strategy, but smack dab in the middle-of-the-road.
Do you want it to be a 10 min all-in push OR do you want decent economy and an army?
If you said yes to the decent economy and an army, then this build is for you. If you said yes to the all-in attack, you shouldn't do this build.
For those of you who like to all-in, use a Zerg Build Order optimizer. If you used said device, you could figure out that by the 9 minute mark you could have:
Yeah but if you stay on one base for 9 minutes....the toss is just going to roll over you in some other way. And will obviously know you are going for some sort of one base allin. Fast Expansion is so common for zerg that if you don't do it, they know you are doing some sort of allin.
1. Speedlings can EASILY prevent all Protoss scouting until they get out a slow Observer.
2. Fake a fast expansion and cancel it at 99%, which would be long after their Probes are dead and you have Speedlings waiting outside of their ramp.
If they did a Forge+FE, and you did this 9 minute rush, I really doubt they will have a big enough army to stop your 30 Speedlings and 14 Hydralisk.
If they are doing a defensive 4 gate on 1 base, you will probably lose because you won't be able to deal enough effective damage due to forcefields on their cliff-ramp.
3gate expo with proper scout (hallu ?/9min push) will stop you build. 3 canons and turtle until 2 colossus+range out. Also, i believe that 15-17 nexus + mass gate have a huge army to hold you pressure at 10min mark (push timming for toss too :p ) but i since i almost never do that build i will not argue too much... ^^'
Very good build in the actual meta game ffe+stargate
interesting, i will try this out, it seems ever other toss i face now is going viodray/phoenix anyways. its probably because all the zergs are going ling/baling vs toss now lol
Yea this is a great build to break the meta-game of how the 3gate expand progresses. But however, I cannot say that this is a "3gate - Expand Counter" as the 3gate expand is more of an opener than an actual build. What this will counter is a 3gate - Expand in where the Toss is not expecting a 2-base All-in from Zerg, or went mass stalkers expecting roaches.
A lot of Protoss completely underestimate just how quickly a zerg army can go from being 30 food below, to being 60 food ahead. (Numbers extremely exaggerated here but you get the idea.)
Unfortunately, I am at work and can't watch replays. But as you didn't mention it in your first post, I guess you are not getting a 3rd queen. The hydra push build is (as you already mentioned) known quite well already, but usually it involves getting a creep highway as hydras are soooo slow off creep. Sometimes getting 1 overseer to contaminate robotics to delay first or second colossus is added to the mix (as colossi are the main counter to this strat). This strat can be quite strong, but at the very high levels it will fail (just watch incontrol handling it on his stream e.g. against destiny wherein inc states that such strats are the main reason why he usually trains against better players than destiny ;-). He simply adds some cannons and uses great force fields to delay the push until his colossus is out which then ends the push handily. Zerg is dead at this point as Ps eco is way ahead. ). Nevertheless, for high diamond it is still viable I guess and so it's no bad thing to play around with it for a while. Unfortunately, if that strat gets more common P users will learn how to handle it properly. Maybe at this point, adding drop to the mix will be an interesting option .
@Douillos: Edit: Ok I watched your replay and I first want to say that you really carried the build out very nicely...Your timings and everything were almost exactly as I said but I have to say a few things: 1.) No biggie but you had 2 drones on first gas for a bit.....really not big but its the first thing I wrote on my piece of paper 2.) Although I've never actually played against a straight up forge into Nexus, I must say that you could have easily won this had you scouted him out a little more in the beginning. He had absolutely no defense to prevent you from running into his main base with 10 lings and killing all his probes for the longest time. You wouldn't have been able to get his expo but that's when you should have transitioned into this. Watch my Zerg vs Chicanery game. Your never really committed to this build and with a gaping chasm like that in his build you really could have exploited it. 3.) I mentioned in one of the replay comments that if you see a pheonix come out, your allowed to move out much earlier than you would otherwise....they invest so much in a unit that is practically worthless by itself and with the build your going, it completely (or in theory) counters low pheonix amounts (even high pheonix counts really.) You could have walked right over while rallying zerglings and gone straight into his main base to end the game 30 seconds earlier. 4.) Make sure you fly an overlord in to see what he's doing....you really lacked scouting that game (Yes, even with a build as strong as this we sometimes are forced to ). 5.) After your first attack you should always get a spire up ASAP with this build. I know he was going mass pheonix, but most protoss will be gunning for collosus and you must anticipate that instantly. Also, some corrupters really would have helped you out. 6.) That protoss should be a zerg player because he expanded like a wild fire. He had 4 bases with the gold when you were just getting your 3rd saturated. You did start out behind because you did get much in your attack-> gotta go for the main in a situation like that.
***Really though, you carried that build out more precise than I ever did but I think in the end that's what actually got you. You still need to be looking for those opportunities for easy ways to get ahead. Most of the time I guarantee you'll straight up win (he did a rare, really odd build) but you get those speedlings in the beginning to get map control and for putting some pressure on to get you more ahead.....Good job anyway and if you keep trying you won't regret....Good Luck
Thanks for the advice.
Great build I must say, the timing is just perfect ^^
On March 08 2011 07:03 gta1 wrote: you wont have 2 collosus and range man.....especially if your going 3 gate expo with forge and plan to get 3 cannons lol
I said "and turtle until 2colossus out" ^^' Colossus/sentry/stalker path with 3g expo is gaz heavy so 3canons is not a problem
2 hatch hydra is a great build against Protoss FE, since like you said, hydras don't get owned by FF as much, plus they can shoot up so your timing attack doesn't get stopped by 2 void rays. It works best against FE > stargate builds which are pretty popular. It works decently even against players who try to get colossus asap because this attack should come when P has at most 1 colossus without range. Any gateway heavy build though will have an advantage over this sort of attack, especially if they just defend and fight you off creep.
1 problem with this build is that the fast lair is scoutable - maybe you can chase the initial scouting probe away with your first 4 lings in time, but if the protoss is smart and does additional scouting he could easily see that fast lair, which will tip him off to some sort of 2 base all in. 4 speedlings is not enough to deny scouting from a good protoss.
Creep is essential to this build - on maps or positions where you are close, spreading a creep highway between your bases is absolutely vital. If you can creep to your opponent's base, I've even seen players add spine crawlers to their attack which work really well. If the bases are farther away, bring overlords to spread creep, or even try nydusing right outside their base.
Another great variation of this build especially on close air positions is to just do a big drop. It's pretty much instant win if the protoss tries any sort of tech. Drops essentially negate forcefields, which is what a protoss relies on to survive any early attack.
I think if you're on close enough positions - and I imagine you are if you're comfortable with the hydra follow-through - you should get 5-8 roaches with some ling support as they push out with their sentries to epand. You need that army anyway, as you can get seriously mauled by a sentry heavy 3-gate push if you don't prepare for it (Huk uses this a lot in his PvZ). While droning behind it, you push in with your roaches and pick off the sentries (or at least try to get them to burn some energy). Once they get a few stalkers or some sim-city and cannons out, you have to fall back, but in often it can be such a surprise Protoss can lose a lot of sentries. That severely weakens them for a hydra/ling followup, or delays them while they replace their sentries. And either way, you're not going to have 3-gate pressure do any damage.
I think it was Gerbil who demonstrated this on Mr Bitter's 12 Weeks series.
Naturally the hard part is knowing when to go back to droning, and keeping up with injects while fighting.
Compare your G1 to Moon vs Socke - Socke gets his expo down 25 seconds earlier than your protoss, first phoenix comes out of stargate at 8:00 giving him plenty of time to scout your low drone count and react with cannons and robotics bay. Moon plays reactively here, teching drop and delaying his third upon seeing robo bay and collects his free win. Note that the mass hydra and drop was reactive, and if socke had added 5 more gateways as Ace did in the finals, he likely wouldn't have done the same strategy.
G2 - You're 20 harvesters behind with no sign of a 3rd, even though again protoss's expansion was ~50 seconds late because he went forge before expansion and made a cannon behind his mineral line for no reason. Common theme so far - no hallucination scout. Again, if protoss adds cannons after scouting your low drones and fast lair and manages to delay, the 20 worker lead will roll you.
G3 - Proper ling scouting would have showed you that his expansion was really late (i.e. past 6:15). This alone should prompt you to make some early defensive zerglings and at least one crawler. Upon seeing his expo go down, you could use your defensive lings to cancel his expo without having to commit to your 10 min hydra push (which, again, is blind). The point being that there are other, safer ways to punish this guy's expansion which don't include blindly massing hydras.
G4 - What's funny about this game is that you BM him for 4gating when he's not actually 4gating (he just isn't good and so his chrono is piling up instead of being spent on WG for a timely expansion). What's even funnier is that you would've died if he was actually 4gating because it would've hit just about when your lair was morphing and your expo just started mining. Protoss also was doing an inefficient build, some hybrid of the 1base hide-5-phoenixes-and-then-expand style and socke's build where you add 1 stargate and get a scouting phoenix at 8:00. Both of you floating over 600 of each resource make it hard to apply the results of this game to higher level play.
G5 - You can make roaches, hydras, or broodlords when you get the kind of advantage you did in that game, this isn't proof that your build is good.
I've tried to criticize the build more than the players, but when the only explanation for it working is that the protoss was not good it's hard to avoid. The idea of a hydra timing attack is a good one that we see get put into use once in a while (Idra on steppes, Moon going hydra drop in close air vs fast colo), but I don't advise that anyone follows your timings because they'll get you killed vs a competent player. I'll leave it to someone else to analyze the other half of the replays, but I wouldn't expect to see anything different.
i used to do this for a while and was pretty successful. it is really a very efficient "strat". i stopped incorporating it into my regular play though because its has a somewhat all-innish flavour to it. if it is scouted, i.e. your hydra den, the lack of a third, amassing hydra numbers and the toss knows whats up he will try to rush out colossus. granted, he might not get a big number out by the time it hits and its most likely going to lack the range upgrade thus enabling you hydras to actually shoot back at the colossus but should you fail in this attack consider yourself severely behind, as you will not have a third up and ready and wont have enough gas for a decent amount of corruptors AND hydras to counter colossi+ gateway units. on top of that you wont have roach tech and are stuck on hyras and lings....vs gateway units and upcoming colossi....think about it.
ive been doing variations of this build as well, such as building a nydus on large rush distance maps, such as scrap station. you can do this by either trying to get a nydus into their main if youre lucky or more solidly having a scout near his natural and spawning the nydus exit right there and continue to pump out units from there on. on short rush distances it is of course perfectly fine to use ovies for spreading creep between your bases.
these days however i only use it anymore when i know my opponent has not gone for colossi yet but rather air for example or has a delayed expansion or a failed 4gate. just any situation in which i know he will definitely not be ready for the amount of hydras i can throw at his face.
just played 3 games against toss and all i can say is wow. This works incredibly well. The first game that I played was on scrap station and my opponent went for a 3 gate with stargate into expand. He brought his first VR over to my base which got demolished by some surprise hydras and I proceeded to mass units until about 9 minutes and then pushed through the middle rocks and demolished his army. The second game I played was against a 4 gate toss player in cross spots. I was skeptical to go ling hydra against this but I made sure to throw down 3 spines in front of my hatch and needless to say I ripped his push apart and proceeded to march across the map with my hydras and demolish his army and win the game. The last game i played was against a 3 gate FE toss and once I saw this I decided to make the push at 10 minutes to his base and there was absolutely nothing he could do to stop me. He got a few nice FFs off to delay the hydras but after the FFs wore out my hydras went to work and won me another game. I should probably post some of the replays but am about to watch the gsl (go sansZenith!) but if i remember in the morning or after gsl is over i will edit the post and add the replays for each game
@sooch: Someones scared lol.....I'll ignore you because I know it works well vs good players...its been proven. I think your comments are kinda blind btw. It's real easy to watch a replay and pick out 50 things the protoss or zerg player could have done but many people wont do all 50 things. All of us aren't pro's dood. Maybe if you've read one of the 25 people that can incorporate it into their play in someway you wouldn't be cynical. If you could share your #1 Masters magical build with us I'd really love that...THANKS!
On March 10 2011 20:36 gta1 wrote: @sooch: Someones scared lol.....I'll ignore you because I know it works well vs good players...its been proven. I think your comments are kinda blind btw. It's real easy to watch a replay and pick out 50 things the protoss or zerg player could have done but many people wont do all 50 things. All of us aren't pro's dood. Maybe if you've read one of the 25 people that can incorporate it into their play in someway you wouldn't be cynical. If you could share your #1 Masters magical build with us I'd really love that...THANKS!
I'm telling you WHY your build is working (i.e. your opponents actually aren't good). Just because it's working doesn't mean it's good/safe/worth learning. You can't dismiss my comments on the basis that "oh nobody's going to play properly like you say" or "oh you're scared". My race is irrelevant here. I gave you good criticism based on what I saw in the replays, and it would make you a better player if you tried to understand what I was saying rather than ignore me. It's a strategy forum, after all, which implies dialogue.
On close positions (for example close meta), I have found that accompanying this push with spines can make it much stronger. Here is idra doing this timing attack on steppes.
You guys defenitely need to see a pro protoss play. It is not the colossus that matters, it is the use of the sentry forcefields. I myself play random and when a zerg I go for a similar build. 9 overlord, 10 gas, 14 pool, when the gas finishes I will have 100 or more gas. So onto lair. Then a queen with hydra den when the lair finishes. While waiting for the den to finish, another hatchery. Also +1 armour at this stage is useful for hydras. And keep on making zerglings with alternating drones. And then with some hydras in the mix, you can transition into whatever build you want smoothly. Btw your first hydra should pop up within 6 min mark if everything is done right.
But it doesn't work against a protoss player who knows how to place the sentry FF and if he properly microes his colo, then game over.
On March 05 2011 16:52 aliciakeyzz wrote: I think this push would be stronger and not as all in if you get roaches instead of hydras. Roaches dont do that less dps.
Hydras actually do almost double roach dps (14.5 compared to 8.0 with no upgrades). The main reason roaches are generally preferred is because they have enough health and armor to survive long enough to do the same amount of damage before death against most ground units, cost around 25% less resources than hydras, and are available before lair.
Ignoring the speed issue, if you have the resources to spare, hydras are more effective use of larva against a stalker-heavy composition than roaches are, because stalkers lose almost 30% of their dps against hydras (or gain 40% against roaches, whichever way round you prefer to think about it), and hydras have a greater range (50% greater if you get the upgrade!).
The main thing this build shows is that hydras are far from a dead unit, especially if you can nullify whatever colossi threat exists (so even in the lategame, a hydra/ling mix with half a dozen corruptors could be quite strong).
I've been trying this out a lot on the ladder and it really seems to give the typical protoss that relies heavily on forcefields to survive till mid/lategame problems. It also deals very well with a warpgate timing+voidray rush. I really like this as an alternative strategy to the regular roach/hydra/corruptor endgame play.
This has worked really well for me vs stargate expands, or expands into stargate play. Hasn't worked great whenever they get a colossus out though, since even though my hydras have equal range, the forcefields to worsen my concave combined with stalker/colossus often kills my push, especially if I didn't bring a lot of overlords for creep. Maybe I'm making too many drones -- I'll have to go back and check. Has anyone tried using an overseer to contaminate the robotics facility (effectively sacrificing 2 hydras for lings instead to make gas for overseer) if you suspect / know colossus tech is coming?
On March 23 2011 11:13 growl wrote: This has worked really well for me vs stargate expands, or expands into stargate play. Hasn't worked great whenever they get a colossus out though, since even though my hydras have equal range, the forcefields to worsen my concave combined with stalker/colossus often kills my push, especially if I didn't bring a lot of overlords for creep. Maybe I'm making too many drones -- I'll have to go back and check. Has anyone tried using an overseer to contaminate the robotics facility (effectively sacrificing 2 hydras for lings instead to make gas for overseer) if you suspect / know colossus tech is coming?
Colossus are supposed to melt hydras and lings, But there are ways to catch him offguard. Infestors are good but take a long time to be effective. So try tunneling the roaches ( 8 aleast ) under the clossus and then focus fire. Hydras can get the rest of his army easily then. Btw try not to make too many lings. Instead use those resources to expand like crazy. You maynot be able to win against a good protoss army with one fight. So you need to be able to produce more units in time and weaken him by multiple attacks. Also a overseer is good as you are bound to have alot of gas at some point since you are playing zerg. So build it if possible. It is really useful and is only the reliable and multi purpose detector available to zerg. How you use it, depends totally upon the situation. and contamination works wonders sometimes. I even had an opponent rage quit as i was contaminating all his unit producing buildings using multiple overseers while keeping pressure with roach/hydra mix.
Also try to keep the ratio of hydras to roaches in about 3:1 and always keep hydras in the back.
EPT
). Anywho the theory behind the Build came when I noticed 3 main FE builds coming from the protoss...either the 3-gate sentry expand, 2 gate stargate expand or the 15 nexus expand (sometimes these include a forge or not). All of these resist the common zerg pressure of roach/ling/baneling or any combo of those via cannon/sentry/force field/voidray usage. These all in someway prevent the zerg from getting in range and actually harming the protoss......That was the basis for the build and I could go into much more of the technicals except I don't want a TL;DR from everyone so I proudly bring to you Zergs Hydraling 10 min push:
