EPTAs a novice protoss (just changed to Toss): would you recommend a 2 gate robo obs FE to them? Or should they still try this? Keep in mind my FF is terrible.
PvT 3Gate Stalker/Sentry Pressure on Xel'Naga - Page 4
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
As a novice protoss (just changed to Toss): would you recommend a 2 gate robo obs FE to them? Or should they still try this? Keep in mind my FF is terrible. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 25 2011 05:15 Jeffbelittle wrote: Awesome write up. As a novice protoss (just changed to Toss): would you recommend a 2 gate robo obs FE to them? Or should they still try this? Keep in mind my FF is terrible. For a newer protoss I would recommend 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo, for sure. They are very safe and you can respond proficiently to just about everything you scout by the time your obs arrives. When your forcefielding skills improve I strongly recommend the 1gate robo into 3gate robo expand though, as you get a faster observer and you can be very flexible based on your scouting information. This build is kind of a trump card in a bo3 or a fun build to use on ladder for the most part; the lack of an early robotics steers me from calling it an extremely flexible build. | ||
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Incursus
United States415 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 26 2011 02:19 Incursus wrote: Out of curiosity, how does this build deal with fast banshees? I love the idea of this build, but I feel that a single cloaked banshee would spell disaster for you. Although, I guess if they are teching they won't be able to hold this push off. In my experience, you can kill the player trying to tech to cloak unless he preemptively pulls all his scvs. You can still manage to bust the wall down by forcefielding the bunker as he will not have cloak or a single banshee when you first walk up his ramp. If I ever walk up the ramp and not see a CC, and I see instead pure marine and a bunker, I throw down a robo. He's going to try to defend with his first banshee without cloak in his base; once you bust the wall you're going to need to focus your stalkers on his banshee and a-move your zealots into the scv's repairing it. I don't think I've ever lost to a cloak rush doing this, but you can lose to it if you walk up the ramp then pull back and try to get an obs out to play defensively. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
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Incursus
United States415 Posts
On March 26 2011 03:05 Alejandrisha wrote: In my experience, you can kill the player trying to tech to cloak unless he preemptively pulls all his scvs. You can still manage to bust the wall down by forcefielding the bunker as he will not have cloak or a single banshee when you first walk up his ramp. If I ever walk up the ramp and not see a CC, and I see instead pure marine and a bunker, I throw down a robo. He's going to try to defend with his first banshee without cloak in his base; once you bust the wall you're going to need to focus your stalkers on his banshee and a-move your zealots into the scv's repairing it. I don't think I've ever lost to a cloak rush doing this, but you can lose to it if you walk up the ramp then pull back and try to get an obs out to play defensively. Awesome! The thing that is always in the back of my mind is the Banshee rush, Banshees are that nightmare that keeps me up at night lol. I'll be using this opening a bit more frequently, I imagine an aggressive Protoss will catch Terrans off guard. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
More updates coming in the future- A look at HuK's 3gate pressure A look at Kiwi's 2gate expand/just kill people | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 05 2011 00:38 Alejandrisha wrote: Hmm I might have to revise or scrap this guide completely after watching Kiwi totally dismantle Gretorp's 1rax FE with rallied units from 2 warpgates.. More updates coming in the future- A look at HuK's 3gate pressure A look at Kiwi's 2gate expand/just kill people I've studied Socke's 2 gate expand for the last couple of weeks, this is basicly the same build Kiwi does. It's extremely strong vs 1 rax FE as it hits really early. The problem I found is, that it doesn't provide the production capabilities to compete with a 2 rax expo build. Basicly - and I think most players have always agreed on that - toss wants to have one core structure more than terran in order to keep the pressure up. This means while the 2 gate expo is probably the best way to deal with a 1 rax expand, I haven't been able to put enough pressure on 2 rax expo players from only 2 gates. Now you may argue "what the hell", let's just play defensive and expo yourself. But then....well then I could play with a one gate expo as well, with 3 more gates added afterwards it's exactly as stable but economicly better. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
It is also very weak to a 2 rax FE --> 5 rax opening As usual, since a 2 rax FE into 5 rax is very strong against 6 gate timings and aggressive 3 gate timings, i don't see why it should be any weaker to this (especially with your stalker heavy composition) Also, by skipping your first zealot, many good terrans will scout this and in fact, simply cut marines and get their CC at natural down after first marine. Either way, if you wanna test the timing, hit me up on skype BrTarolg | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
I am in no way discrediting you but your build seems almost exactly the same as the slayers_Alicia 3 gate pvt build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202262. The only thing different is the unit count and composition, I mean if you get very technical the chrinoboost timing and usage is different but overall I see the same exact builds you just label thisnas your own. I'm only high diamond, low masters so I'm only asking this because I wish to learn no disrespect. If anyone more 1337 than me could enlighten me, that be sweet peace. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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silverhand
United States91 Posts
Why I think this build is even more viable with the upcoming changes: 1) The 3 sentries in this build get chrono'd and all come out of regular gateways. Sentry build time decrease so far is still being implemented on PTR - now chrono's can either be used to get them out faster (I imagine some gas timings would need to be adjusted to get them out faster), or on your WG to negate the 20 second increase in WG timing...which still leaves an extra chrono you can use on your nexus to get your econ up even faster. For some reason I haven't been able to get on the PTR last few days...dying to tinker with this to see if I can hit the Terran faster with the sentry changes. 2) The bunker changes for Terran impact the early game more so than the mid-late game as resources are more precious early game so they will want to either protect the bunkers they have put down, or they'll be less likely to use them unless they scout the pressure coming - which if you get that first stalker out in time, you can essentially keep them in the dark. 3) I'm starting to wonder if this could be developed into a PvP build as well by getting out the earlier sentries you can have plenty of FF's built up to defend any early pressure besides a proxy 2 gate. This would give you the option of either pressuring an opponent that tries to get up an early expansion, or allow you to put one up yourself and defend it. The changes on PTR seemed to really only affect 4gate and sentry-based builds, so I wasn't very excited about the changes until I dug up this build...hoping I can devise some variations on this build for PvP and perhaps even some PvZ situations. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On May 07 2011 02:24 silverhand wrote: I know it has been a month since this was last responded to, but in light of the changes upcoming on PTR, I've been playing with this build some as I'm tired of being the passive protoss and really enjoy putting some early pressure on my opponents to set the pace of the game. Why I think this build is even more viable with the upcoming changes: 1) The 3 sentries in this build get chrono'd and all come out of regular gateways. Sentry build time decrease so far is still being implemented on PTR - now chrono's can either be used to get them out faster (I imagine some gas timings would need to be adjusted to get them out faster), or on your WG to negate the 20 second increase in WG timing...which still leaves an extra chrono you can use on your nexus to get your econ up even faster. For some reason I haven't been able to get on the PTR last few days...dying to tinker with this to see if I can hit the Terran faster with the sentry changes. 2) The bunker changes for Terran impact the early game more so than the mid-late game as resources are more precious early game so they will want to either protect the bunkers they have put down, or they'll be less likely to use them unless they scout the pressure coming - which if you get that first stalker out in time, you can essentially keep them in the dark. 3) I'm starting to wonder if this could be developed into a PvP build as well by getting out the earlier sentries you can have plenty of FF's built up to defend any early pressure besides a proxy 2 gate. This would give you the option of either pressuring an opponent that tries to get up an early expansion, or allow you to put one up yourself and defend it. The changes on PTR seemed to really only affect 4gate and sentry-based builds, so I wasn't very excited about the changes until I dug up this build...hoping I can devise some variations on this build for PvP and perhaps even some PvZ situations. The later WG and faster sentry production leaves a 35 seconds window between when the 3rd sentry comes out of the gateway and when WG finishes when before there was no window. I'd have to do some work on the PTR to see what I can change in terms of chronoboost usage since I don't see any benefit in getting the 3 sentries and a 5th unit out before WG when I get the 3 additional stalkers 20 seconds later than I did before the patch. I'm guess I'll delegate one or two chronoboosts I previously put on the sentries onto warpgate, but there is definitely a chance I will have to scrap this build in favor of something else that works better with the new changes. I'll definitely keep this build up to date in that regard. Edit: Well, I still get the 3 gateways at the original time (now 20 seconds before wg finishes) So I'm thinking of cutting out the 1 CB on the WG that I had originally and seeing if I can't get a round of 3 units from the 3 gates right before WG finishes and maybe cutting a probe at 27 food before I put the gates down to ensure I get the gates up in time to finish all 3 before WG finishes. Thanks for bringing this up! Has given me some good ideas I think. | ||
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silverhand
United States91 Posts
If I could logon to the PTR (keeps freezing at 70%) I'd see what I could come up with too, but I'll either have to wait until I figure out why it won't update, or until the patch is released. Either way, it seems like you could simply not chrono the sentries as they'd come out just as soon after the patch and instead put 2 more chronos on the WG to negate the 20 second increase and then an additional chrono on the Nexus. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On May 07 2011 04:26 silverhand wrote: I'm very interested in seeing what you can come up with as my fun factor with playing protoss in PvT is back again...using this build, I just won my last 4 of 5 PvT matches - and the one I lost was my stupid mistake that screwed up the timing. I watched the replay and if I hit during the proper timing, I would have won. If I could logon to the PTR (keeps freezing at 70%) I'd see what I could come up with too, but I'll either have to wait until I figure out why it won't update, or until the patch is released. Either way, it seems like you could simply not chrono the sentries as they'd come out just as soon after the patch and instead put 2 more chronos on the WG to negate the 20 second increase and then an additional chrono on the Nexus. Yes, well the issue I have with putting more chrono on warpgate is this: Instead of using the patch to your advantage, you are trying to get the same # of units at a slightly later time. Instead of fighting the patch, I think that instead of adding 2 chronos to WG, taking the 1 that is already in place and putting it some where else can allow you to get a round of units from all three gateways to finish and then warping out 3 more units when it finishes. The only issue here is you are slightly more vulnerable to pressure that comes before WG finishes. I think this could be remedied with scouting. For example, keep your probe alive at the base at the ramp, or worst case scenario bouncing between their ramp and their tower; if you see mauradors on the way, put the 2 CB's on the WG; if you do not, reserve it for non WG-produced units. I'll stop here.. I feel like this too much theorycraft and too little support. I will test it on the PTR today and post again ^^ edit: PTR down tt | ||
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silverhand
United States91 Posts
What I did differently: + Show Spoiler + 9 Pylon (CB Nexus) 12 GW (CB Nexus) 14 Gas 16 Pylon 17 Core 18 Gas 21 Zealot (CB) WG Research @100% Core (Still CB once here as I was having trouble squeezing out 3 units and lining up the timing on WG finishing w/o this CB) 23 Pylon Sentry @100% Zealot 26 Gateway (This allows me to get the second extra unit out before WG research finishes) Sentry @100% Sentry (CB) 29 Gateway (This allows the 3rd GW to line up with completion of WG research) 30 Pylon 3rd Sentry@100% Sentry Stalker @100% 2nd GW (CB) - Times up very close to WG research finishing but I'm sure it's more my speed getting in the way here 36 Proxy Pylon Warp in 3 stalkers and move out to opp natural where you follow up with a warpin of either 3 zealots or you will have enough resources for 2 stalkers and 1 zealot. You could opt for a 4 zealot, 3 sentry, 4 stalker mix if you saw a heavier marauder composition as you'll have plenty of FF's to keep from getting kited...and the zealots probably hold up better against bunkers if you can't run by them. Just my take on a few hours of tinkering with it, and if the patch posts tomorrow like people are speculating, at least I have something to work with in PvT until someone better comes along with a different option. | ||
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Karsa
Canada1 Post
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