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On March 09 2011 08:12 milfhunter wrote:
Thanks Alejandresha, but if they are not coming down at all and is not expanding, would you poke up the ramp? I ask because I don't know of any other way ot knowing if they are going to tech to banshee or a raven for polt.
Even if they are expanding, a lot of the times they will scout your aggression and they won't fly their cc down to the nat. So poking up gives you the chance to see the building/completed command center as well, as they will place it in between the bases which is conveniently very close to the ramp. If you walk up and you just see a bunker and marines, they are probably doing tech labbed starport tech. A lot of the times you can just kill them here. It's tough though. If you walk up and see marines and a bunker with no scvs behind it--something you can kill most of the time--and you balk and run down the ramp and lose a unit or 2, you might have lost your oppurtunity. So you have to be very decisive at this particular juncture. If you walk up and see a tank, gtfo ^^
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On February 28 2011 06:32 Alejandrisha wrote:
I'm obviously not the first person to ever skip the initial zealot and make 3 gateways against terran, but I don't think anyone has optimized it and made a thread about it xD
Feel free to post and let me know what you think or if you have anything to add to the OP.
Thanks for reading!
-Alej
This is one of my favorite PvT builds for some time now. I thank you for really going into length about the specific timings where you can mount an attack on a typical 1rax-2rax Expansion from Terran. My build order is a lot less nailed down, but I do the same thing just dropping a Nexus on the way out, delaying a round of warpins. What I liked about doing this build:
Rallied Crossmap Conc Shell Marauders. I know you've seen it. A 2rax expand with pressure that sometimes stings. Waiting for more rounds of warpins just to gain that edge. Another build I use, the popular 1gate FE, relies on zealots/stalkers and sometimes pulled probes to hold on. I like forcefields, and the 2gas build with 3gateways gives me that, and enough killing power to obliterate 2rax FE guys en route or upon arrival. I absolutely love this build against that, where I felt powerless to defeat it using forcefields, only brute strength (1gate FE).
Availability of followups. You have 2gas. When I do it, I also have an expansion. Robo and colossus is a possibility, as is fast HT (usually with a robo for observers and avail. of immortals in a pinch). Big 6gate pressure, or just chargelot/immortal allin. It's so nice =)
My personal preference 3gates, expo as you're moving out (4 sentries, several stalkers). Proxy pylon to make the attack more effective. Robo after expo, chrono'd rallied immortal when finished. Learned this from a former top200 Protoss, so I can't take credit for its invention either.
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A question to both Alejandrisha and danglars. Do you always expo then robo after the 3 gate?
What would be your prefered out of the 3: robo, double forge, or charge?. And whats your reasons for it? Cuz what ever you guys recommend I am just gonna run with it.
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Another strength of this build is that if you make the proxy pylon very early, you can kill the 1 marine, 2 marauder, 1-2 SCV poke easily by repelling it with force fields at your base, then intercepting their retreat path with units at the proxy pylon.
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iamke55, i've always felt that making that one zealot right in the begining makes it so easy to defend against the 2 marader 1 marine, i wonder why people don't do it.
Also I posted some question in both of guides on standard play and was wondering if you would be kind enough to answer. Sorry I ask so many questions and never contribute cuz of noobness.
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I just want to say from terran perspective. This build is insanely strong. Especially on this map.
You can basicly denie any kind of FE and contain any 2 or 3 rax play. Only weakness seems to be cloacked banchee or helion drop.
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On March 09 2011 08:55 milfhunter wrote:
A question to both Alejandrisha and danglars. Do you always expo then robo after the 3 gate?
What would be your prefered out of the 3: robo, double forge, or charge?. And whats your reasons for it? Cuz what ever you guys recommend I am just gonna run with it.
I already stated my preference, I recommend you reread what I wrote. The discussion is principally on the initial 3gate stalker/sentry attack on a bunkered, yet wide open expansion. You develop an advantage, kill off a large portion of his army with minimal losses, and frequently kill the expansion or force it to lift back to its main.
Rest is up to what you scout him doing, what you feel most comfortable using, and a few other game-specific factors including how much stuff you killed.
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Why are you not chrono boosting your first sentry and instead waiting for the 2nd one? Seems like you are arbitrarily slowing down your own production just to make your timing work. Same thing with your chrono boosting timing on your warp gate. You had the energy to chrono boost it and you planned to do it anyways, so why wouldn't you chrono it as soon as you start researching? I know you want to time it so that your 3rd sentry finishes just as your warp gate tech finishes, but it doesn't make sense to slow down your entire production just because of that.
Oh nevermind, I guess you fixed these up by the 3rd replay.
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Thank you for putting the work in and posting this. It looks very nice and quite helpful as another VERY solid opening for my toolkit =P
A quick question, you noted in your OP that stealing gas would steer him towards a FE build, would you recommended gas stealing each time you can while using this build? or is it not worth it?
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On March 09 2011 10:32 Zeri wrote:
Thank you for putting the work in and posting this. It looks very nice and quite helpful as another VERY solid opening for my toolkit =P
A quick question, you noted in your OP that stealing gas would steer him towards a FE build, would you recommended gas stealing each time you can while using this build? or is it not worth it?
that's a very good question. I really don't gas steal that much but I think it would really help you if you were doing this build. However, cloaked banshees don't really scare me THAT much when I'm doing this since a lot of terrans won't make a bajillion bunkers when they see you grab a 2nd gas and cb out a gateway unit, and the build that scares me when I am doing this--the tank expo or tank allin-- doesn't necessarily require 2 gases. I guess it depends on your playstyle and what you feel more comfortable playing against. I have yet to run into a 2-thor rush when I'm doing this build and I don't think this build would fare too well against it since you don't scout the specific rush until you actually poke in after 6:30.
So, I will continue to grind away at it and add whatever I find to the OP
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On March 09 2011 08:55 milfhunter wrote:
A question to both Alejandrisha and danglars. Do you always expo then robo after the 3 gate?
What would be your prefered out of the 3: robo, double forge, or charge?. And whats your reasons for it? Cuz what ever you guys recommend I am just gonna run with it.
I typically go robo after I do this just because I love to have multiple observers on the map against terran. I'll typically have scouting pylons at both of the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock expansions and obs darting around where a drop ship might go to.
I used to favor a lot of gateway heavy play with charge and storm but I have gradually drifted away from that because robo tech just feels a lot safer against gimmicky builds.
Off a one gate expansion on cross map lt or metal though I usually favor heavy gateways /w templar and 1 forge
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On March 09 2011 10:13 KingofGods wrote:
Why are you not chrono boosting your first sentry and instead waiting for the 2nd one? Seems like you are arbitrarily slowing down your own production just to make your timing work. Same thing with your chrono boosting timing on your warp gate. You had the energy to chrono boost it and you planned to do it anyways, so why wouldn't you chrono it as soon as you start researching? I know you want to time it so that your 3rd sentry finishes just as your warp gate tech finishes, but it doesn't make sense to slow down your entire production just because of that.
Oh nevermind, I guess you fixed these up by the 3rd replay.
the lack of chrono on the first sentry helps your gateways get up just a bit faster. And, if you chrono boost that first sentry you absolutely HAVE to cut probe production which I don't like! I've played around with that timing for a while and this is what I have found to be strongest.. but if you fear extremely quick rax pressure then by all means cb that sentry out.
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If you don't want that 2nd sentry to come out too fast you can always wait a little bit before you start producing it. The result would be the same as not chronoboosting the first sentry, only you get the first sentry out faster.
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Been on the build order calculator and you can get 6 stalker 3 sentry out pretty fast, it's been running only about a minute and is at like 2% likelihood of completion and we got:
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:02.14: 68M 21G 3E 47/ 50S
Income: 820M 228G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 28 Probe 6 Stalker 3 Sentry
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
And it's slowly cutting down the seconds so it can be done a bit faster, but probably a bit more unsafe near the beginning...
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On March 09 2011 16:03 Lobber wrote:
Been on the build order calculator and you can get 6 stalker 3 sentry out pretty fast, it's been running only about a minute and is at like 2% likelihood of completion and we got:
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:02.14: 68M 21G 3E 47/ 50S
Income: 820M 228G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 28 Probe 6 Stalker 3 Sentry
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
And it's slowly cutting down the seconds so it can be done a bit faster, but probably a bit more unsafe near the beginning...
I'd be wary about using build optimizers to find "optimal" build orders. Whenever I try to run this through one of those applications, it chronoboosts the warp gate research while training stalkers out of the gateway. the purpose of the build is to be able to use forcefields to fight the bio army; this is why this build calls for 3 sentries right after the first stalker so that they can build up energy which in turn gives you additional forcefields for when you actually engage. Also, the build order applications don't take into consideration the scouting probe's lost mining time from what I have seen and that is kind of a big deal when we are nickel and diming for seconds in timings.
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On March 09 2011 15:55 KingofGods wrote:
If you don't want that 2nd sentry to come out too fast you can always wait a little bit before you start producing it. The result would be the same as not chronoboosting the first sentry, only you get the first sentry out faster.
I suppose that would keep the timings aligned but I don't see how that would be more effective than holding off on chronoboosting for a few seconds. Seems like it makes executing the build a little bit more complicated to realize the same outcome
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On March 09 2011 09:29 milfhunter wrote:
iamke55, i've always felt that making that one zealot right in the begining makes it so easy to defend against the 2 marader 1 marine, i wonder why people don't do it.
Also I posted some question in both of guides on standard play and was wondering if you would be kind enough to answer. Sorry I ask so many questions and never contribute cuz of noobness.
The initial zealot is crucial for holding off those kinds of pushes but on xel naga the rush distances make those timings a little bit more managable. I suppose a proxy rax against this build would make you think, "damn I wish I had a zealot," but there is no way to know you need it until you know it's coming and by that time it is too late. So rather than trying to blind counter it you'd have to pull probes instead. But, on Xel'naga, I rarely see that kind of aggression so I feel pretty safe using this. On close spawns on other maps I always get it while doing any opening be it 1gate robo -> 3 gate robo or 1 gate FE (though I pretty much always get the zealot for these builds regardless of spawns)
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Excellent write-up! Everything made intuitive sense to me and the timing on the gateways is extremely satisfying :D
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Just used it against a 3700 ML Terran and it worker perfectly.
He played a really greedy 2 Racks Expand (CC at the natural) and didn't even attack me early on (which would've been a desaster for him because I already had 2 Sentrys+1 Stalker).
He only placed 1 Bunker though.
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On March 10 2011 03:04 Binabik wrote:
Just used it against a 3700 ML Terran and it worker perfectly.
He played a really greedy 2 Racks Expand (CC at the natural) and didn't even attack me early on (which would've been a desaster for him because I already had 2 Sentrys+1 Stalker).
He only placed 1 Bunker though.
I'm glad you had good results! Usually you can bust through unlimited bunkers on this map since you can isolate individual ones because of the way the naturals are set up. Bunkers will only really shut this down on a map where the natural is pretty tight and the terran forces you to fight them all at once (I would say lost temple but that got removed.. have to check out the new temple for this)
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EPT
