Chrono Boost Math - Page 4
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ZeromuS
Canada13372 Posts
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lurked
Canada918 Posts
On February 23 2011 10:40 Manifesto7 wrote: This is a good chance for someone to ease into liquipedia too. On February 23 2011 10:51 Zips wrote: Hrm, you should add this to liquipedia So, as some people suggested, I created a Liquipedia article for this thread. I also included a link in the Chrono Boost page(only waiting to be approved). The article is available at this link : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost_Math And BTW, this is my first wiki article, so please don't hate if it's an amateur job, and just edit and improve it if you can do better! Link will be added in http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost page as soon as the page changes are approved. | ||
Allred
United States352 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On February 24 2011 01:31 Allred wrote: just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations Specifically you need: 3*25 - 0.5625(2*20) = 52.5 energy. Which I guess you could generalize slightly as: 25N - 11.25(N-1) but only works when N is an element of {2, 3, 4, 5, 6} and one nexus which I guess I could just list out:
FWIW this chronoboost math and energy regeneration is also why - if you're getting psi storm you should build high templar just after you start your second chrono boost if your playing perfectly to have storms available when storm research finishes. (i.e. you want to warp in high templar at 37 ticks into storm reserach). - if your early game split, probe stacking, and first pylon are done correctly you should chronoboost your nexus at 39 energy and again at 25 energy as a 9 pylon finishes just as your 10th probe chrono'd at 39 energy completes and your nexus gets 25 energy just as your first chronoboost wears out | ||
lurked
Canada918 Posts
On February 24 2011 02:24 Jaeger wrote: Specifically you need: 3*25 - 0.5625(2*20) = 52.5 energy. Which I guess you could generalize slightly as: 25N - 11.25(N-1) but only works when N is an element of {2, 3, 4, 5, 6} and one nexus which I guess I could just list out:
FWIW this chronoboost math and energy regeneration is also why - if you're getting psi storm you should build high templar just after you start your second chrono boost if your playing perfectly to have storms available when storm research finishes. (i.e. you want to warp in high templar at 37 ticks into storm reserach). - if your early game split, probe stacking, and first pylon are done correctly you should chronoboost your nexus at 39 energy and again at 25 energy as a 9 pylon finishes just as your 10th probe chrono'd at 39 energy completes and your nexus gets 25 energy just as your first chronoboost wears out Really nice work getting this up, just added it to the Liquidpedia page too. | ||
whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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SageFantasma
United States383 Posts
Huge thanks for posting this, I'm definitely gonna save this for future use! | ||
AirbladeOrange
United States2566 Posts
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Deletrious
United States458 Posts
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optik678
United States13 Posts
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lurked
Canada918 Posts
On February 24 2011 04:28 whatthefat wrote: No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds. Yes, maybe it is quite obvious if you look at the simplest line of the post and stop reading, but is it really THAT obvious that you need exactly 63energy saved when you need 4 chrono boosts back to back for an upgrade? Maybe the OP isn't the most complex ever, but the discussion generated from this thread brought some really interesting information. Even I, as a low diamond protoss, had no clue that it took 45secs to get 25energy on my nexus, or that I needed 5 chrono boosts but only 80energy saved to get my warp gates research the fastest possible. So yeah, maybe the first formula and explanations are a bit too complex for something so obvious to you, but it gave birth to a discussion a lot more useful than your post stating that it is obvious information. I'm not the best player, and by far, but I know that at least it was useful to me, so it will probably be useful to a lot more people. | ||
whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On February 24 2011 05:25 lurked wrote: Yes, maybe it is quite obvious if you look at the simplest line of the post and stop reading, but is it really THAT obvious that you need exactly 63energy saved when you need 4 chrono boosts back to back for an upgrade? Maybe the OP isn't the most complex ever, but the discussion generated from this thread brought some really interesting information. Even I, as a low diamond protoss, had no clue that it took 45secs to get 25energy on my nexus, or that I needed 5 chrono boosts but only 80energy saved to get my warp gates research the fastest possible. So yeah, maybe the first formula and explanations are a bit too complex for something so obvious to you, but it gave birth to a discussion a lot more useful than your post stating that it is obvious information. I'm not the best player, and by far, but I know that at least it was useful to me, so it will probably be useful to a lot more people. The OP didn't include anything that wasn't a trivial consequence of that single fact. I agree, the subsequent discussion and derivation of how much initial energy is required to chronoboost N consecutive times is less obvious, and that's the kind of useful information that belongs in Liquipedia. It just seems strange to me to create a whole new page to essentially restate what is already on the Chronoboost page: "Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier." | ||
FlowerbedOfDreams
Canada126 Posts
Knowing, for example, that you need exactly 5 CBs to speed out two colossus, and knowing when to start saving up energy, might become the cornerstone for a fast-colossus tech build. Alternatively, you can use 3 CBs to have a fast observer and immortal out - and that's just from a cursory glance at the final figures. Of course, I might just be shooting my mouth off, and none of this has any actual applicability, but someone will have to try it before saying so. And OP, ignore the "critics": they're just jealous that you found something simple yet useful to contribute | ||
Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On February 23 2011 17:46 freetgy wrote: understanding this actually makes seem Chronoboost a pretty weak ability. The strengh of CB is the reduction in buildtime thus (using ressources faster) i.e. a Chronoboost on Probes is usually more "worth" it as a chronoboost Upgrades upgrades get faster 160->150 thats not even 10% faster while Probes get ofcourse alot faster build (i.e 2 probes take 34s, with CB its 24s) thats nearly 1/3 reduction. Same for Chronoboosting units if we take a Warpgate Zealot takes 28s cooldown with chronoboost it takes 18,666s effectivly you would need 3 Chronocycles to make the Macromechanic "worth" an additional Zealot. (for longer buildtimes this gets even worse) Now compare this to Mules: 1 Mule gets you ~270 thats nearly 2 Gateways/Rax 2 mules are 1 additional Nexus/CC which boost you production capacity alot faster than chronoboost ever could and it is ofcourse more forgiving cause it gives you minerals which makes you a hell of more flexible in what you want to spend it too. This also shows why Protoss is hit hardest by Economic Harass, beeing able to boost production doesn't mean shit if you don't have the income to do that. weakest Macromechanic (= on Economic side) just to make a comparison: a Terran who builds an CC in his base can produces (has the additional mules) 2 SCV in 17s a Protoss who boosts his Probes gets: 2 Probes in 24s This also shows how bad CB Scales when the counts of bases get higher. How often do we see Progamers still having much much energy on their Nexuses during mid/late game. Conclusion: Using Chronoboost on things that have small buildtimes more effective than cause the Speedup in % is alot higher, than on slower buildtimes. We will see Terrans do inbase CCs because of macromechanic We will see Zergs do inbase Hatches because of macromechanic We will never see Protoss do inbase Nexuses, because of macromechanic I wanted to scream when I read that -_- Protip: Hatcheries are production buildings. The reason you don't see inbase hatcheries as often as in BW is because of their macro mechanic Besides, what does it matter that Protoss' macro mechanic is less significant than the other races? If you made it better you would just have to nerf everything that Toss has, like how warpgates effected the balance of gateway units. There's no need to bring up the 'X is UP Y + Z is OP this is unfair *cry*' comment in every thread. | ||
teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
just sayin' ..nice article. XD | ||
Temporarykid
Canada362 Posts
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Volka
Argentina379 Posts
Thanks everyone for the support, comments, suggestions, etc. | ||
Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On February 24 2011 10:08 teamsolid wrote: I haven't read the thread yet, but is there a way to calculate the exact starting amount of energy required in order to chrono boost out warp-gate tech through the entire build time? Warpgate-Tech: 140 sec -> 93 1/3sec minimum Research time -> 4 2/3 CB (5) -> 125 Energy - 0.56 x 20 x 5 = 69 +-1 Energy Last CB is not used entirely so you can be a bit off with your Timing and still need just 5 CB. | ||
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I wrote a thread similar to this a few months ago that discusses the actual economic cost of chrono-ing something other than your Nexus early game and when. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604 I would be interested to see a cost-benefit analysis of using Chrono on units vs warp gates, but I might just write one up if I ever get around to thinking about it. Also it's worth noting that you should replace 33.3333% with 50% almost everywhere you note it. If something is supposed to take 9 seconds but only takes 6, it is 50% faster than expected. If it is 100% faster, then it is only 4.5 seconds, and if it is 200% faster it is only 2.25 seconds. 900% faster, it would be 1 second. Similarly, if something should take 9 seconds but is 33.33% faster, then it takes 6.75 seconds. Example: I want to chronoboost one probe. It builds in 11.5 seconds instead of 17. 17/11.5 = 1.5, or 50% faster. To compare 11.5 seconds to 17 seconds, we can say that it takes 67% as much time, or 33% less time, but we cannot say it is 33.33% faster. It is 50% faster. Lastly, if you give two letters do a variable, do not capitalize them both. (This is nitpicky, but CR should be Cr or just C, as CR implies C*R, two variables.) Hope this helps and thanks for the nifty spreadsheet. | ||
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