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Chrono Boost Math - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
February 23 2011 16:16 GMT
#61
The 1/3rd upper limit is interesting and good for new players to learn :D I know I've been working off of this concept for a long long time. thanks for posting :D
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
lurked
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada918 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-23 16:19:53
February 23 2011 16:16 GMT
#62
On February 23 2011 10:40 Manifesto7 wrote:
This is a good chance for someone to ease into liquipedia too.


On February 23 2011 10:51 Zips wrote:
Hrm, you should add this to liquipedia


So, as some people suggested, I created a Liquipedia article for this thread. I also included a link in the Chrono Boost page(only waiting to be approved). The article is available at this link :
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost_Math

And BTW, this is my first wiki article, so please don't hate if it's an amateur job, and just edit and improve it if you can do better!

Link will be added in http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost page as soon as the page changes are approved.
Magic is "just" magic until I get my hands on the source code.
Allred
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
February 23 2011 16:31 GMT
#63
just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations
An expert is a man who tells you a simple thing in a confused way in such a fashion as to make you think the confusion is your own fault. ~William Castle
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-23 17:38:31
February 23 2011 17:24 GMT
#64
On February 24 2011 01:31 Allred wrote:
just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations


Specifically you need:

3*25 - 0.5625(2*20) = 52.5 energy.

Which I guess you could generalize slightly as:

25N - 11.25(N-1)

but only works when N is an element of {2, 3, 4, 5, 6} and one nexus

which I guess I could just list out:

  • 2 -> 38.75 (39)
  • 3 -> 52.5 (53)
  • 4 -> 62.25 (63)
  • 5 -> 80
  • 6 -> 93.75 (94)



FWIW this chronoboost math and energy regeneration is also why

- if you're getting psi storm you should build high templar just after you start your second chrono boost if your playing perfectly to have storms available when storm research finishes. (i.e. you want to warp in high templar at 37 ticks into storm reserach).

- if your early game split, probe stacking, and first pylon are done correctly you should chronoboost your nexus at 39 energy and again at 25 energy as a 9 pylon finishes just as your 10th probe chrono'd at 39 energy completes and your nexus gets 25 energy just as your first chronoboost wears out
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
lurked
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada918 Posts
February 23 2011 18:27 GMT
#65
On February 24 2011 02:24 Jaeger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2011 01:31 Allred wrote:
just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations


Specifically you need:

3*25 - 0.5625(2*20) = 52.5 energy.

Which I guess you could generalize slightly as:

25N - 11.25(N-1)

but only works when N is an element of {2, 3, 4, 5, 6} and one nexus

which I guess I could just list out:

  • 2 -> 38.75 (39)
  • 3 -> 52.5 (53)
  • 4 -> 62.25 (63)
  • 5 -> 80
  • 6 -> 93.75 (94)



FWIW this chronoboost math and energy regeneration is also why

- if you're getting psi storm you should build high templar just after you start your second chrono boost if your playing perfectly to have storms available when storm research finishes. (i.e. you want to warp in high templar at 37 ticks into storm reserach).

- if your early game split, probe stacking, and first pylon are done correctly you should chronoboost your nexus at 39 energy and again at 25 energy as a 9 pylon finishes just as your 10th probe chrono'd at 39 energy completes and your nexus gets 25 energy just as your first chronoboost wears out


Really nice work getting this up, just added it to the Liquidpedia page too.
Magic is "just" magic until I get my hands on the source code.
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
February 23 2011 19:28 GMT
#66
No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
SageFantasma
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States383 Posts
February 23 2011 19:42 GMT
#67
Very interesting stuff here. Unfortunately some people may think this is complicated because of all of the variables instead of actual numbers, but it's actually really straight forward. This can definitely be extremely useful in forming and optimizing a new build. I'm thinking I might just use this to try and figure out a good build for fast HT tech in PvZ/PvT, :D

Huge thanks for posting this, I'm definitely gonna save this for future use!
AirbladeOrange
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2573 Posts
February 23 2011 19:42 GMT
#68
Good information to know. This can help you plan chrono use better knowing how many you should be using per upgrade or unit. Thanks.
Deletrious
Profile Joined December 2007
United States458 Posts
February 23 2011 19:49 GMT
#69
I barely play SC2 and when I do I play zerg, but I saw this mistake in Liquipedia a few months ago and corrected it. Thanks for explaining the math thoroughly.
Bow before the Dongjwa.
optik678
Profile Joined July 2010
United States13 Posts
February 23 2011 19:50 GMT
#70
I actually did this about a month ago in my starcraft notebook. I calculated the differences between using just 1 and multiple chrono boosts. I'll see if I can remember to add that to the wiki sometime this week.
lurked
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada918 Posts
February 23 2011 20:25 GMT
#71
On February 24 2011 04:28 whatthefat wrote:
No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds.

Yes, maybe it is quite obvious if you look at the simplest line of the post and stop reading, but is it really THAT obvious that you need exactly 63energy saved when you need 4 chrono boosts back to back for an upgrade?

Maybe the OP isn't the most complex ever, but the discussion generated from this thread brought some really interesting information. Even I, as a low diamond protoss, had no clue that it took 45secs to get 25energy on my nexus, or that I needed 5 chrono boosts but only 80energy saved to get my warp gates research the fastest possible.

So yeah, maybe the first formula and explanations are a bit too complex for something so obvious to you, but it gave birth to a discussion a lot more useful than your post stating that it is obvious information.

I'm not the best player, and by far, but I know that at least it was useful to me, so it will probably be useful to a lot more people.
Magic is "just" magic until I get my hands on the source code.
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
February 23 2011 20:41 GMT
#72
On February 24 2011 05:25 lurked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2011 04:28 whatthefat wrote:
No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds.

Yes, maybe it is quite obvious if you look at the simplest line of the post and stop reading, but is it really THAT obvious that you need exactly 63energy saved when you need 4 chrono boosts back to back for an upgrade?

Maybe the OP isn't the most complex ever, but the discussion generated from this thread brought some really interesting information. Even I, as a low diamond protoss, had no clue that it took 45secs to get 25energy on my nexus, or that I needed 5 chrono boosts but only 80energy saved to get my warp gates research the fastest possible.

So yeah, maybe the first formula and explanations are a bit too complex for something so obvious to you, but it gave birth to a discussion a lot more useful than your post stating that it is obvious information.

I'm not the best player, and by far, but I know that at least it was useful to me, so it will probably be useful to a lot more people.


The OP didn't include anything that wasn't a trivial consequence of that single fact. I agree, the subsequent discussion and derivation of how much initial energy is required to chronoboost N consecutive times is less obvious, and that's the kind of useful information that belongs in Liquipedia. It just seems strange to me to create a whole new page to essentially restate what is already on the Chronoboost page:

"Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier."
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
FlowerbedOfDreams
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada126 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-23 22:37:30
February 23 2011 22:35 GMT
#73
Trivial though it may be, I for one am quite grateful for your work, OP. Having these figures stated explicitly will be very helpful in figuring out various build timings.

Knowing, for example, that you need exactly 5 CBs to speed out two colossus, and knowing when to start saving up energy, might become the cornerstone for a fast-colossus tech build. Alternatively, you can use 3 CBs to have a fast observer and immortal out - and that's just from a cursory glance at the final figures. Of course, I might just be shooting my mouth off, and none of this has any actual applicability, but someone will have to try it before saying so.

And OP, ignore the "critics": they're just jealous that you found something simple yet useful to contribute
"SKT is best KT." -Vortok
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
February 23 2011 23:05 GMT
#74
On February 23 2011 17:46 freetgy wrote:
understanding this actually makes seem Chronoboost a pretty weak ability.

The strengh of CB is the reduction in buildtime thus (using ressources faster)
i.e. a Chronoboost on Probes is usually more "worth" it as a chronoboost Upgrades

upgrades get faster 160->150 thats not even 10% faster
while Probes get ofcourse alot faster build (i.e 2 probes take 34s, with CB its 24s)
thats nearly 1/3 reduction.

Same for Chronoboosting units if we take a Warpgate Zealot
takes 28s cooldown
with chronoboost it takes 18,666s
effectivly you would need 3 Chronocycles to make the Macromechanic "worth" an additional Zealot. (for longer buildtimes this gets even worse)

Now compare this to Mules:
1 Mule gets you ~270 thats nearly 2 Gateways/Rax
2 mules are 1 additional Nexus/CC
which boost you production capacity alot faster than chronoboost ever could
and it is ofcourse more forgiving cause it gives you minerals which makes you a hell of more flexible in what you want to spend it too.

This also shows why Protoss is hit hardest by Economic Harass, beeing able to boost production doesn't mean shit if you don't have the income to do that.

weakest Macromechanic (= on Economic side)

just to make a comparison:
a Terran who builds an CC in his base can produces (has the additional mules)
2 SCV in 17s
a Protoss who boosts his Probes gets:
2 Probes in 24s

This also shows how bad CB Scales when the counts of bases get higher.
How often do we see Progamers still having much much energy on their Nexuses during mid/late game.

Conclusion:
Using Chronoboost on things that have small buildtimes more effective than cause the Speedup in % is alot higher, than on slower buildtimes.

We will see Terrans do inbase CCs because of macromechanic
We will see Zergs do inbase Hatches because of macromechanic
We will never see Protoss do inbase Nexuses, because of macromechanic


I wanted to scream when I read that -_-
Protip: Hatcheries are production buildings. The reason you don't see inbase hatcheries as often as in BW is because of their macro mechanic

Besides, what does it matter that Protoss' macro mechanic is less significant than the other races? If you made it better you would just have to nerf everything that Toss has, like how warpgates effected the balance of gateway units. There's no need to bring up the 'X is UP Y + Z is OP this is unfair *cry*' comment in every thread.
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-24 01:09:12
February 24 2011 01:08 GMT
#75
I haven't read the thread yet, but is there a way to calculate the exact starting amount of energy required in order to chrono boost out warp-gate tech through the entire build time?
CCa1ss1e
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3231 Posts
February 24 2011 01:41 GMT
#76
Conclus s ions & Important Timings

just sayin' ..nice article.

XD
~ The Ultimate Weapon
Temporarykid
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada362 Posts
February 24 2011 01:57 GMT
#77
wow, this is great! Thanks for being "that guy" in the community who takes that extra step and does the math for this kinda thing. It's really appreciated! :D
ㅈㅈ
Volka
Profile Joined December 2010
Argentina411 Posts
February 24 2011 03:07 GMT
#78
I've updated the OP.

Thanks everyone for the support, comments, suggestions, etc.
http://www.starsite.com.ar
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
February 24 2011 03:10 GMT
#79
On February 24 2011 10:08 teamsolid wrote:
I haven't read the thread yet, but is there a way to calculate the exact starting amount of energy required in order to chrono boost out warp-gate tech through the entire build time?


Warpgate-Tech: 140 sec -> 93 1/3sec minimum Research time -> 4 2/3 CB (5) -> 125 Energy - 0.56 x 20 x 5 = 69 +-1 Energy

Last CB is not used entirely so you can be a bit off with your Timing and still need just 5 CB.
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-24 05:18:03
February 24 2011 04:05 GMT
#80
I thought most/all of this was common knowledge, but it is nice to see it in one post.

I wrote a thread similar to this a few months ago that discusses the actual economic cost of chrono-ing something other than your Nexus early game and when.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604

I would be interested to see a cost-benefit analysis of using Chrono on units vs warp gates, but I might just write one up if I ever get around to thinking about it.


Also it's worth noting that you should replace 33.3333% with 50% almost everywhere you note it.


If something is supposed to take 9 seconds but only takes 6, it is 50% faster than expected. If it is 100% faster, then it is only 4.5 seconds, and if it is 200% faster it is only 2.25 seconds. 900% faster, it would be 1 second.

Similarly, if something should take 9 seconds but is 33.33% faster, then it takes 6.75 seconds.


Example:

I want to chronoboost one probe. It builds in 11.5 seconds instead of 17. 17/11.5 = 1.5, or 50% faster. To compare 11.5 seconds to 17 seconds, we can say that it takes 67% as much time, or 33% less time, but we cannot say it is 33.33% faster. It is 50% faster.


Lastly, if you give two letters do a variable, do not capitalize them both. (This is nitpicky, but CR should be Cr or just C, as CR implies C*R, two variables.)

Hope this helps and thanks for the nifty spreadsheet.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
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