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On February 22 2011 03:02 MucK wrote:i start my melleupgrade soon as well bricklayer just watch the replays 
Thanks for the new links Muck.
So, i've watched them and... Now i'm kind of disappointed. Kind of. You don't upgrade at all, i've watched almost all the pack, you get the speed bling upgrade but, that almost all. No melee or armour.
No ultra armour neither, no range for hydra, it's...Weird.
On the bright side, your composition and most of all, your timing, works wonder i have to say. But i'm afraid that i'll join Caspian in a way, it's gimmicky, i don't know. I've discover Sluggy's thread too, the strat' is more or less the same but he's ultra arrive way after, when all the upgrade and eco are set. And for mid game survive he's using drops and neuro upgrade, and after watching his replay i have to say i found his method more reliable.
On your side, upgrade are extremely delayed, it's not a problem on the games you submitted, cause you compo roflstomp the opponent's army, but i'm afraid that when it won't happen, the lack of upgrade will hurt you when reproducing ( assuming your opponent have some ).
I don't want to be an ass here, i love that composition, and i'm glad that you guys share all that with us. It's just some critics here, hope to be constructive and understandable.
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Just watched the replays and this unit composition is awesome, BUT in each of your posted games there wasn't any huge battles until ultras are out. What if he decides to push with 2-3 collosus when your ultras are not ready? If toss sees that you teching to hive that fast he should push asap with his first few collosus. And then I think everything depends on how good toss manages to put those forcefields, especially in some situations like shakuras horizontal spawns he can just make a timing attack through the backdoor and you can't flank with baneling, so you won't defend.
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as a protoss on EU, i consider
baneling (+drop) + infestor + broodlord/corrupter as the ultimate anti-toss build.
ultras die to almost everything but pure stalker.
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On February 22 2011 20:07 Super_bricklayer wrote:
Thanks for the new links Muck.
So, i've watched them and... Now i'm kind of disappointed. Kind of. You don't upgrade at all, i've watched almost all the pack, you get the speed bling upgrade but, that almost all. No melee or armour.
No ultra armour neither, no range for hydra, it's...Weird.
mhm i normaly do at least the melle atack upgrades dont know just took some games i found in my rep folder ^^ normaly.. i have at least + 1 atack sometimes +2 and if its a longe game +3
and i also do banelingspeed of course
i dont make other upgrades cause i dont feel its worth/necessary
everything on the ground gets killed and i dont net hydraupgrade to fight the voids(sometimes make it vs 6 gate)
i dont net the armor upgrades cause everything die so quick its not worth it
thx for the critism thats how its shoud be
most toss just dont play like this at least vs me i always feel like they scout me teching to t3 and do nothing at all but adding some voids
mhm lings /infestors do pretty well vs colloses in low numbers wituoth much of a defending ball in their front
and if he gets 2-3 colloses that early he wont have many FF and not much of armyshield to defend them but yeah that can be very hard if he does it right
i think a gate army push with many sentrys at about minute 12 -13 is much harder but you can deal with it when you just build enough hydras
will play some ladder today (maybe even gona turn on my stream) and post some replays to 4/6 gate and earlyer pressure
but could be hard since most tosses just want to fe and turtle till they get this "death"ball
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On February 22 2011 02:50 MrBitter wrote:
Xog and Aquanda were both using this style in the KOTH I hosted with Limenade last night. It's damn impressive.
The style they were using was all about mass expansion, and upgrades for those lings and banes. It's pretty surreal seeing a Zerg go up to 5 bases while Toss is still on 2, and defending it with just tier 1 units.
Edit:
For Voids, and even for normal robo mid-games, Z can easily transition into mass muta. (Hell, Z is on 8 gas by the time lair finishes)
I'm actually hard pressed to think of a unit composition that would challenge this style. It seems extremely strong to me.
Any replays of this by chance? I'd really like to see that style with the mass expansions and everything.
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On February 22 2011 23:42 DiaBoLuS wrote:
as a protoss on EU, i consider
baneling (+drop) + infestor + broodlord/corrupter as the ultimate anti-toss build.
ultras die to almost everything but pure stalker.
Ultras even die to mass blink stalker. Just blink your font lines back simultaneously, which can be difficult at some angles, and you'll rape ultras. Plus they are exactly as fast as stalkers, so when your first blink victims become your front line units again, you can just run in circles until blink/shield resets
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I dont agree with this raping ultras bullshit, unit is actually all right. And you could even call it cost effective against any toss composition that doesnt have too many immortals/voids. I really like this build, having fairly nice success with it so far... just need to learn the timings
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1 ultra gets killed by 3 or 4 zealots Oo good thing i have banes
good to hear this kalpman
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What about baneling drops on protoss balls before Ultras are out? Fungal can hold the units in place.
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Muck, been trying your build man, and I must say, I'm impressed.
I only played 2 protosses yesterday, and it worked wonderfully. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the games didn't make it to the late game. Both Tosses went for stargate builds (one a void ray gate timing push, the other like 6 phoenixes), which is actually teh lulz when you do this build. Their gate army dies so fast it's not even funny.
I was worried the second game as the phoenixes did a fair amount of harass just as hydras were popping. Thankfully I got lucky and snuck an Ovie to the corner of his base (shakuras) and nydused (nydused!) lings blings hydras and 2 infestors. He had two collosus at this time as he had just taken his third. Fungaled the collosi and the gateway units, and unleashed hell.
The protoss should have been more careful, but he figured he was so far ahead that there was nothing I could do to him... that is, until the worm popped in his base and his entire army died in about 4 seconds... LOL... beautiful! I figured that he had taken a third, and that my only chance was to go all-in on him, and it worked to fantastic effect. Anyway, I'll post the replays if you're interested.
I'm interested to see how this build unfolds into the late-game. I mean, I've seen you do it on your reps, but have yet to experience it myself. Early and mid-game, it is quite powerful, as most protoss seem completely caught off-guard. They're like: "where the fuck are the roaches?"
I really enjoy the flexibility and map-control this build gives you. If I want to, I can switch to anything I want later, as this build seems to emphasize quick teching. Funnily enough, it's light on the resources too, so I feel like I can expand as well. IDK if you have this expression in Germany, but I feel like "I can have my cake and eat it, too." Will be exploring more later today. Thx for the tip, man.
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oh actually there was a third game on scrap where the toss tried to warp prism drop 2 immos/warp-in in my base. Well my three queens and 14 lings had something to say about that.
I only bring this up because I actually kept him from expanding while hard-switching to more standard roach corruptor (he desperately tried to get his collosus count up, while massing zealots). Again, this is a really good example of the flexibility this build gives you.
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nice to hear man !
i also feel like i can drone like hell and tech an still have my armie soon enough to defend if he does an atack as lings will pop put very fast and blings are morphed fast as well
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On February 22 2011 15:20 Whiplash wrote:
Ya I remember playing vs Aquanda last night and had never seen that mass ling build, its pretty hard to deal with. A timing push is prob going to be the best way to deal with it similar to the push against mutaling.
Kind of agree, but its so much harder because there really isn't a tech window in which you can abuse for the timing attack. Ling/bling will come out around the 5-6 minute mark and if you're going for a big attack, it soon becomes all-in because of how quickly the zerg gets ahead of you in economy. I've had some success with warp prisms (back-door drops, dropping on banelings) and keeping up with upgrades, just going for gateway compositions mainly. Also, blink is useful to blink individual stalkers onto masses of banelings. Both the warp-prism & blinking of stalkers requires the opponents attention to be diverted, however, and their effectiveness sharply declines once infestors are out on the field.
Basically, baneling/infestor/ling is way too cost effective and so easy to use that you're really fighting uphill as soon as that baneling nest comes out. Anything that requires the opponent to make him babysit his base and banelings will give protoss more breathing room.
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Absolutely. I think the "philosophy" of this build, shall we say, is that if emphasizes aggression much, much more than standard roach/hydra play. When I play "standard", nothing is more frustrating than knowing I can't attack the fucking toss (cuz of FF) until he moves out with a billion collosi and void rays and stalkers and melts my shit in .2 seconds. This build really sticks it to 'em, if you know what I mean.
Also, couple of questions.
1: do you ever use drop-tech with this build? Seems like it could be useful.
2: do you have difficulties when the protoss has exceptionally good micro? Like those 3 ultras breaking FF are amazing, but do you ever find yourself dominated by clever use of FF, while focusing down ultras, while they block them with units, etc. Sry this one is a bit rambly!
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1. yeah coud be usefull for banedrops in his eco but you dont need it infight since FF are useless
2. and no normaly not only if im to stupid to micro my ultras but if you have more than 5 you dont even have to micro them .. you have to klick on a ultra and work into the ff .. its really sometimes to hard for me xD
if he walls of his ramp with buildings i go macro myself and just outmacro(im normaly ahead in drones/bases) him since he cant come out of his 3rd or i atack his exp that he has to come out
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i dont see how blink stalkers would have a chance against ultras with infestors and fg, also in this unit composition the task of the ultras is not to kill stalkers but forcefields and colossi - without that lings and blings become really effective
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This build looks very promising, I'm surprised at the lack of interest for a zvp build that doesn't have problems with the "deathball". Keep up giving us tosses a run for our money MucK. 
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I'd just like to share a replay with y'all to let you know that this build works super well.
http://www.mediafire.com/?fnv4g4oc353cmgb
The Toss needed an obs in my base a lot sooner, but as you'll see, he opened phoenix, and saw a spire, so he thought I was playing pretty much "standard." Much to his surprise, I wasn't.
And Muck, considering this is "your" build--as much as a build can belong to somebody--do you mind checking it out and giving me feedback as to my execution? He took an early third, and I was worried about it, But I decided to wait for the ultras anyway. Turns out, that was the right decision.
I am a 3100 "masters" zerg.
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The genius of this build is that it essentially uses the entire OTHER half of the tech tree that Zergs don't use in ZvP. Standard collosus builds just don't work against it. I'm sure this build has as many weaknesses as Roach/Hydra does, it's just that a lot of protosses seem so stuck in their ways, and haven't fleshed out timings/builds, etc. to counteract it, as I don't think a lot of people are using it..
This build really shakes shit up.
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ok i watche dit and
good things: builded a spire just for case
builded about 6 hydra as the hydra den was ready (6gate air)
macro late game was ok
builded a round of lings when you saw the stalker (in case of 4 gate)
quick 3rd
bad things: somehow you had not that many drones at the beginn of the game (maybe because of pylon kill dont know)
relative slow ultras
stoped building banes after your big atack and made roaches instead
think you could have killed him after you destryed his gold but you won so its ok^^
overall quite good consididering its new for you
gona try to play a bit today so i can post some more replays of 4/6gate and early atacks
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EPT
