depending on the game but normaly yes sometimes even after (if i scouted hes going to play fe i take the 3rd even before t2 ) so just like you would take your 3 in a "normal" game
you can play it out of 2 base as well .. in 4 out of 5 games its offer after the ultras are out and some banes are morphed

MrPrezbo

92 Posts

February 21 2011 22:20 GMT

#23

Muck, can you talk about what you do if Toss DOES go for a fourgate rush or a sixgate timing? Seems like a pretty big weakness in this build.

Kalpman

Sweden406 Posts

February 21 2011 22:22 GMT

#24

Allright, thanks man

Gonna start trying this.

<3

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 21 2011 22:28 GMT

#25

you can hold a 4 gate pretty easy even with lign alone you just have to know its coming i mean i wouldnt call it a weakness this build is fucking good against 4 gate
6 gate is a little bit harder but you can hold it easy as well
you just have to know its coming xD ( like you have to when you play any other bo) sometimes a just handle it with ling bling only and some times i mix in like 7 hydras
its all about scouting --> if you know its coming you gona hold it and be ahead if you dont know you can hold it as well but its hard
like you can hold it with roaches as well but its all about knowing and not knowing

maybe gona post some replays of 4 and 6 gates as well tomorow but know im watching idra fighting xD

Evaner

Italy94 Posts

February 21 2011 23:09 GMT

#26

I've played around this exact same build for the past week or so, since Idra and Artosis' video on the VR/Colossi deathball that became popular on ladder and it's very hard to handle against any good Protoss.
Using Infestors requires NP aswell at some point to take better care of some Colossi/VR. The build is a little bit weak against storm, however with some practice and FLAWLESS micro when engaging it's a lot better than the classic roach/hydra/corruptor. Pretty much the same as vs Terran, if your micro and army management is good enough you'll demolish your opponent barely taking any losses, better than you'll ever do with any muta/ling/bling.

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 21 2011 23:17 GMT

#27

theres no reason to research NP cause the toss army is down in 3 seconds Oo
and you would rather fungal voids than NP them cause you dont have 30 of them

the ground army dies and if you have enough hydras you can deal with the fungaled voids as well and if you havent one the game at this point you take back your remaining ground army and build mass corupter cause he wont be able to rebuild a ground army that is even able to nearly harms yours

and the bo they talked about was more about lings and the combo of queens/ultras
and yes storm is hard but its all about scouting

just macro up even mor get broods and dont let him go out of his base
if he goes on creep he has lost cause he wont be able to kill the banes with storms before the banes kill him

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 21 2011 23:32 GMT

#28

sry for doublepost ;(

catid

United Kingdom47 Posts

February 21 2011 23:36 GMT

#29

2 base ultralisk rushing isn't completely new and it can work, but I think ultimately it's a trick build.. you're kind of relying on Protoss attacking into your because you're sacrificing upgrades + expansion timing. If P plays a defensive style with a faster third I think you're pretty far behind - you're forced to try and kill him with your fast Ultras, otherwise they're a waste of money (considering you rushed for them)

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 21 2011 23:41 GMT

#30

caspian pls watch some of the replays before posting
its not a 2 base allin -_- its more of a macro build

catid

United Kingdom47 Posts

February 21 2011 23:49 GMT

#31

I didn't call allin but I said you're relying on Protoss doing a 2 base aggression, otherwise why would want Ultralisks by 14 minutes?

and some of the Protosses you played had terrible mechanics anyway so it's hard to judge ;p

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 22 2011 00:03 GMT

#32

why i woudnt?
its the time wehre they go for a 2 base agression isnt that reason enough?
you wont survive without them at this time of the game cause he has to many ff
i mean i can atack i can play macro i can do whatever i fell like
i can run in his base an kill him in 80 percent of the times when he dont come out i can atack his 3 so he has to send his units out and even if i dont kill him its still not over for me
im ahead in eco im ahead in bases why i have to rely that he goes out on minute 14 or later?
and sure some of them had bad mechanics im just (3200) so i wont play vs pros
they have about the same points and they werent noobs for sure

catid

United Kingdom47 Posts

February 22 2011 00:31 GMT

#33

okay we disagree on about 1000 things here (eg being able to rush to ultralisks and still being ahead in economy) so I won't bother arguing on specifics points

but are these all ladder games? cause rushing for Ultras might work vs a random 3k ladder player but I think someone experienced with the build could really abuse its major weaknesses

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 22 2011 00:41 GMT

#34

no not all ladder games thats the reason one guy made fast hts with archons
and why i shoudnt be able to be ahead in drones and get fast ultras? you can see it in the replays
if i see him playing 4 gate i wont rush to them i will defend it if i see him going 6 gate i will defend it if i dont i will die just like its supposed to be

every bo has weaknesses i mean its not like im playing it and winning every game and didnt want it to sound like that its just a bo Oo
some pleople will play it and hate it and some will love it

ChiknAdobo

United States208 Posts

February 22 2011 01:31 GMT

#35

So what is the appropriate protoss response? What do you lose to with this build? Also, how do you deal with void/coll deathball off two base. Do you kill em before or build more hydras or what? I do think the build is pretty good and I definitely want to try it I have been getting crushed lately by void/coll and other air builds.

ChiknAdobo

United States208 Posts

February 22 2011 01:50 GMT

#36

I just watched your replay against tripal and wow... you were both around 200/200 and he had void/coll and you crushed him. The only thing is that if he pushed in before you had your ultralisks I think it could have been big trouble for you.

skatbone

United States1005 Posts

February 22 2011 02:04 GMT

#37

Yea, having watch Xog and Aquanda use a ling/bling opening on Mr. Bitter's stream I have to agree there is potential in the early part of Muck's build. But these two players do it with mass expanding-I just watched Aquanda take his 3rd at a about 5:40 secs. He didn't use the ultras until he had repeatedly contained the toss to 2 base with ling/bling/corrupter (the toss was going vr-collosus). So it was another case of ultras coming into play when the game is already won. But I don't think it has to be that wey.

Alphasquad

Austria505 Posts

February 22 2011 02:11 GMT

#38

im really glad that you shared this strategy because i've been looking for alternatives to roach/hydra/corruptor for a long time - the very best aspect of this strategy is that forcefields get destroyed immediately and then ling/bling becomes really really effective - i hope my macro will be good enough to try this

the reason why 200 supply of this composition is so strong is because its extremely supply efficient with ling/bling costs of only 0.5 and without forcefields its even better than in zvt as protoss dont have the range of tanks nor the speed of stimpacks; also ultras do extremely well against stalkers and colossi

i also dont think this is imba but im quite convinced that it at least has the potential to force protoss adaption instead of one strategy vs everything that zerg throws at them

MucK

Germany59 Posts

February 22 2011 06:17 GMT

#39

On February 22 2011 10:31 ChiknAdobo wrote:
So what is the appropriate protoss response? What do you lose to with this build? Also, how do you deal with void/coll deathball off two base. Do you kill em before or build more hydras or what? I do think the build is pretty good and I definitely want to try it I have been getting crushed lately by void/coll and other air builds.

6 gate with many sentrys can be really hard when i try to hold it with ling blign only so there has to be some hydras somehwere
it delays the tech and all but its no problem cause the toss will have colosses even later

also hts can be freaking hard if you face him on a choke and without creep
but if you just stay on crepp and techswitch to brood/ultra you are really ok
also most toss are to stupid to make the storms soon enough .. you really have to make them before the banes are in range to kill them
and at around the time the ultras pop out i can mostly just go to his base and kill him since he will have about 2 storms at this time
at least when he hasnt rushed to it wich should be scouted
but storms are really the best against this build but since you are t3 you can switsch to everything

also some sorts of atack at about 13 minute can be hard but shpuld be holdable
and you can delay his atack with infestors and fake atacks

if i see him building voids i just build enough hydras to be sure they will kill the voids on their own since all of the hydras(at least most time) gona survive the ground fight and i also build a spire just in case
in the game vs tripal you can see i just lost about 1 hydra in the end fight xD i mean he only had 4 voids but i still had about 20 hydras left
theres also a 4 gate in it that should have been hold better but.. at least i hold it xD

Whiplash

United States2929 Posts

February 22 2011 06:20 GMT

#40

Ya I remember playing vs Aquanda last night and had never seen that mass ling build, its pretty hard to deal with. A timing push is prob going to be the best way to deal with it similar to the push against mutaling.