To start with i first want to appologize for my bad english... Im a 3200 zerg master player so nothing special So .. i used to have big problems being a zerg and playing against a good protoss(like many other zerg players have as well). These forcfields just made me go crazy and the colloses together with the rest of the "deatball" .. yeah I used to play roaches like the most people do and i won about 50 percent of my matches against toss but i merly won games where they just waited to have this really strong "deathball". So i came up with some new strategies 3 months ago and i found one that is ,at least in my opinion , really strong against this freaking ball .. im always smiling when i see this 170-200 supply ball getting raped in like 3 seconds anyway the bo is all about ling and blings to hold 4 gate or 6 gate, getting 2-3 infestors and fast t3 for the ultras. I tried to find somehting costefective vs this ball and the only thing that really is are banelings. But you cant just play banelings and win cause the forcedields just make them useless after they have many sentrys. So you need something that make the forcefields useless ---> ultras and some fungals to keep the ball togehter so they cant split their army like T do with marines. I dont want to talk that much cause its better if you watch the replays, to see what i mean, anyways
the MucK-BO ^^ is something like this: pool --> gas--> hatch 100 gas speed next 50 banelingnest if he doesnt play 4 gate next 100 t2 --> hydraden, infestation pit and banelingspeed if he doesnt play 6 gate t3 --> ultras once the ultras are out just go kill him or wait for him to go out to rape him even more normaly the ultras are out at about ingameminute 14 they often go for a atack with about 2-4 colloses at this time
conts of my bo: -4 and 6 gate can be hard if unscouted - very fast ht`s can be hard to deal with
pros: -4 and 6 gate can be hold easy if scouted -realtive safe to voids/air cause you build a hydra den and infestationpit when you get t2 -relative safe to dts cause you build a fast evo -good eco cause you can build many drones at the beginn cause you can morph your lings to banelings and build some lings if he trys to atack -fast t3 -once the first 2-3 ultras are out(at about ingameminute 14) you can just go rape him xD
please comment on what you think about it AFTER watching the replays
The replays are unavailable mate. Also, kind of sounds like the build MrBitters popularized in ZvT recently. P.S. It does sound like a decent enough idea though. Kind of curious to see how stable this actually is.
Cant wait to try this. I've always hated roach based ZvP, been messing around with mutas alot, but this might actually prove better... I'll have a look
What timings are you taking expansions? or are you saying you 1-base all-in with ultras? From the looks of it, I'd assume you expand around 22, and take a 3rd while you have the mineral surplus of teching to T3, though I may be wrong.
mhm i can download the replays and its not all about infestor they are just to fungal them only once .. most toss cant split the army anyway and even if they do they normaly get raped with voids i deal with hydras cause it normaly works cause the protoss ground army is death after 3 seconds so they wont die to colloses and if they dont work i build a spire build and infestors and atack him again cause the ultras normaly survive since all the lings gets atacked first and you can just walk home build new lings wait for antiair and atack again
i do build the first expansion as soon as possible depending on pylonblock and the 3rd at about 9-10 depending on my drones
Also, I think any 4-gate would be easy to hold off with just a couple of spines and adding on queens, those will be great for creepspread later, which I can see will play a huge part playing like this ^^
hi muck, i made a similar post last week. I tried your style before approaching my current preferred strat. My problem was that ultras come too late to handle a decent sized timing attack where forcefield just dominates everything. To get around this I get drops as soon as I hit tier 2 and make more infestors and get parasite first before teching to ultras. One of the main benefits of doing it this way is that you are able to manage forcefield earlier in the game, and you have harassment options (+2 melee upgraded banelings 1 shot probes, so just 2 banelings can wipe a mineral line). The drawback of my style compared to yours is that since ultras come later, any screw ups with infestors cause you to die to colossus. My question for you is, haven't you had problems surviving if they attack before ultras kick in?
As in Mr Bitter thread about infestors, i have to ask about a fast upgrade. What do you think of a fast +1 melee against protoss ? It works wonder imo, Dimaga used this back in the beta, and it allow you to save some gas instead of producing banelings ( i'm talking about a standard 3 gate push, you'll probably want them on any gate all in i guess ).
I played a little with that kind of composition but find my self very week against mid push, with 2/3 colossy and something like 8 sentries for force feald. But i didn't experiment with baneling was afraid of force feald...I tried using neural parasite but didn't have so much success with it. :s
Xog and Aquanda were both using this style in the KOTH I hosted with Limenade last night. It's damn impressive.
The style they were using was all about mass expansion, and upgrades for those lings and banes. It's pretty surreal seeing a Zerg go up to 5 bases while Toss is still on 2, and defending it with just tier 1 units.
Edit:
For Voids, and even for normal robo mid-games, Z can easily transition into mass muta. (Hell, Z is on 8 gas by the time lair finishes)
I'm actually hard pressed to think of a unit composition that would challenge this style. It seems extremely strong to me.
i normaly can handle it somehow to survive till utlras are out if he atacks before the ultras are out he has 1 colloss and i can somehow manage to kill him .as long as you fight on the right position if hes coming out you can fungal him to buy time as well so no i do not really have probs with it sometimes but it would be OP if i hadnt
mrbitter thats one reason why i posted it know and not 3 months agao cause i want to get the credit for it since other people seem to figure out a similar style to mine xD (yeah im an asshole xD) i wanted to wait till i beat a well known player to post it that the people belive me that it does work ... mhm but im not in top 200 so its hard for me to face one ^^
im normaly 1-2 bases ahead but i do a really fast tech i think its to dangerous staying on t1 for too long since you have to had out the ultras when he has 3 or 4 colloses
i start my melleupgrade soon as well bricklayer just watch the replays
Could you possibly try out the late game composition I've proposed for dealing with the Protoss death ball? It seems incredibly strong on paper, and I feel as though the replay of my composition against the death ball I've provided OP warrants some testing, the only problem is that I'm not a Zerg player myself, and what with you being a Master league Zerg player, you might be able to see if it's really as effective late game as I believe it is. Just so you know now, 100 supply of my composition kills what 200 supply of Roach/Hydra/Corruptor can't kill in meum's unit test map :D
@branflakers im not sure if this would works cause the hydras will geht killed by colloses (dont know if ultras have a higher priority but they can micro to kill them) and the ultras alone wont make it since they wont get behind the zealot wall even if they get healed like crazy but i havent tried it yet so it could work
The infestors are unnecessary imo unless you research NP for his collosi or using fungal to kill observers/dt's. The reason I say this is because a protoss army cant split units like a T army. Protoss units aren't as quick as stimmed marines/maurowders, they rely on FF.
So with ultras since you negate the FF, infestor's FG seem's like overkill. I think those resources are better spent on more lings/blings/ultras/upgrades.
mhm the fungals are quit usefull if you atack him in his base and yeah you can atack his expansion to fungal the colloses that want to walk up the ramps and to buy time cause it can make the difference of 0 ultras and have ultras xD and the most important at all he cant let his colloses walk out of the ball !
i normaly have 2 melle atack when i go atack and i do build a spire at this time
Been following the same concept except I just go straight lings/banes and get a back up spire in case of collosi. If they go HT banes are fantastic, they destroy everything and if they blink away the HT get melted ^^. Of course, one must engage in the open and bait FFs or micro around them. I'll have change things around and try aquanda's and xog's build, sounds great.
if they have hts you can still play banelings even offcreep cause ff wont work and they have to see you coming to make the storms before you are in range to kill the banes before they can make damage but i always stop producing lings then cause they just block the banes and then they gona die to the storms the blings just have to kill the zealots (vs hts) that the ultras can handle the rest its also good to just tech to broods then since you are t3 anyways and a spire shoulld have been build as soon as you saw the hts
depending on the game but normaly yes sometimes even after (if i scouted hes going to play fe i take the 3rd even before t2 ) so just like you would take your 3 in a "normal" game you can play it out of 2 base as well .. in 4 out of 5 games its offer after the ultras are out and some banes are morphed
you can hold a 4 gate pretty easy even with lign alone you just have to know its coming i mean i wouldnt call it a weakness this build is fucking good against 4 gate 6 gate is a little bit harder but you can hold it easy as well you just have to know its coming xD ( like you have to when you play any other bo) sometimes a just handle it with ling bling only and some times i mix in like 7 hydras its all about scouting --> if you know its coming you gona hold it and be ahead if you dont know you can hold it as well but its hard like you can hold it with roaches as well but its all about knowing and not knowing maybe gona post some replays of 4 and 6 gates as well tomorow but know im watching idra fighting xD
I've played around this exact same build for the past week or so, since Idra and Artosis' video on the VR/Colossi deathball that became popular on ladder and it's very hard to handle against any good Protoss. Using Infestors requires NP aswell at some point to take better care of some Colossi/VR. The build is a little bit weak against storm, however with some practice and FLAWLESS micro when engaging it's a lot better than the classic roach/hydra/corruptor. Pretty much the same as vs Terran, if your micro and army management is good enough you'll demolish your opponent barely taking any losses, better than you'll ever do with any muta/ling/bling.
theres no reason to research NP cause the toss army is down in 3 seconds Oo and you would rather fungal voids than NP them cause you dont have 30 of them the ground army dies and if you have enough hydras you can deal with the fungaled voids as well and if you havent one the game at this point you take back your remaining ground army and build mass corupter cause he wont be able to rebuild a ground army that is even able to nearly harms yours
and the bo they talked about was more about lings and the combo of queens/ultras and yes storm is hard but its all about scouting just macro up even mor get broods and dont let him go out of his base if he goes on creep he has lost cause he wont be able to kill the banes with storms before the banes kill him
2 base ultralisk rushing isn't completely new and it can work, but I think ultimately it's a trick build.. you're kind of relying on Protoss attacking into your because you're sacrificing upgrades + expansion timing. If P plays a defensive style with a faster third I think you're pretty far behind - you're forced to try and kill him with your fast Ultras, otherwise they're a waste of money (considering you rushed for them)
why i woudnt? its the time wehre they go for a 2 base agression isnt that reason enough? you wont survive without them at this time of the game cause he has to many ff i mean i can atack i can play macro i can do whatever i fell like i can run in his base an kill him in 80 percent of the times when he dont come out i can atack his 3 so he has to send his units out and even if i dont kill him its still not over for me im ahead in eco im ahead in bases why i have to rely that he goes out on minute 14 or later? and sure some of them had bad mechanics im just (3200) so i wont play vs pros they have about the same points and they werent noobs for sure
okay we disagree on about 1000 things here (eg being able to rush to ultralisks and still being ahead in economy) so I won't bother arguing on specifics points
but are these all ladder games? cause rushing for Ultras might work vs a random 3k ladder player but I think someone experienced with the build could really abuse its major weaknesses
no not all ladder games thats the reason one guy made fast hts with archons and why i shoudnt be able to be ahead in drones and get fast ultras? you can see it in the replays if i see him playing 4 gate i wont rush to them i will defend it if i see him going 6 gate i will defend it if i dont i will die just like its supposed to be
every bo has weaknesses i mean its not like im playing it and winning every game and didnt want it to sound like that its just a bo Oo some pleople will play it and hate it and some will love it
So what is the appropriate protoss response? What do you lose to with this build? Also, how do you deal with void/coll deathball off two base. Do you kill em before or build more hydras or what? I do think the build is pretty good and I definitely want to try it I have been getting crushed lately by void/coll and other air builds.
I just watched your replay against tripal and wow... you were both around 200/200 and he had void/coll and you crushed him. The only thing is that if he pushed in before you had your ultralisks I think it could have been big trouble for you.
Yea, having watch Xog and Aquanda use a ling/bling opening on Mr. Bitter's stream I have to agree there is potential in the early part of Muck's build. But these two players do it with mass expanding-I just watched Aquanda take his 3rd at a about 5:40 secs. He didn't use the ultras until he had repeatedly contained the toss to 2 base with ling/bling/corrupter (the toss was going vr-collosus). So it was another case of ultras coming into play when the game is already won. But I don't think it has to be that wey.
im really glad that you shared this strategy because i've been looking for alternatives to roach/hydra/corruptor for a long time - the very best aspect of this strategy is that forcefields get destroyed immediately and then ling/bling becomes really really effective - i hope my macro will be good enough to try this
the reason why 200 supply of this composition is so strong is because its extremely supply efficient with ling/bling costs of only 0.5 and without forcefields its even better than in zvt as protoss dont have the range of tanks nor the speed of stimpacks; also ultras do extremely well against stalkers and colossi
i also dont think this is imba but im quite convinced that it at least has the potential to force protoss adaption instead of one strategy vs everything that zerg throws at them
On February 22 2011 10:31 ChiknAdobo wrote: So what is the appropriate protoss response? What do you lose to with this build? Also, how do you deal with void/coll deathball off two base. Do you kill em before or build more hydras or what? I do think the build is pretty good and I definitely want to try it I have been getting crushed lately by void/coll and other air builds.
6 gate with many sentrys can be really hard when i try to hold it with ling blign only so there has to be some hydras somehwere it delays the tech and all but its no problem cause the toss will have colosses even later
also hts can be freaking hard if you face him on a choke and without creep but if you just stay on crepp and techswitch to brood/ultra you are really ok also most toss are to stupid to make the storms soon enough .. you really have to make them before the banes are in range to kill them and at around the time the ultras pop out i can mostly just go to his base and kill him since he will have about 2 storms at this time at least when he hasnt rushed to it wich should be scouted but storms are really the best against this build but since you are t3 you can switsch to everything
also some sorts of atack at about 13 minute can be hard but shpuld be holdable and you can delay his atack with infestors and fake atacks
if i see him building voids i just build enough hydras to be sure they will kill the voids on their own since all of the hydras(at least most time) gona survive the ground fight and i also build a spire just in case in the game vs tripal you can see i just lost about 1 hydra in the end fight xD i mean he only had 4 voids but i still had about 20 hydras left theres also a 4 gate in it that should have been hold better but.. at least i hold it xD
Ya I remember playing vs Aquanda last night and had never seen that mass ling build, its pretty hard to deal with. A timing push is prob going to be the best way to deal with it similar to the push against mutaling.
On February 22 2011 03:02 MucK wrote: i start my melleupgrade soon as well bricklayer just watch the replays
Thanks for the new links Muck. So, i've watched them and... Now i'm kind of disappointed. Kind of. You don't upgrade at all, i've watched almost all the pack, you get the speed bling upgrade but, that almost all. No melee or armour. No ultra armour neither, no range for hydra, it's...Weird.
On the bright side, your composition and most of all, your timing, works wonder i have to say. But i'm afraid that i'll join Caspian in a way, it's gimmicky, i don't know. I've discover Sluggy's thread too, the strat' is more or less the same but he's ultra arrive way after, when all the upgrade and eco are set. And for mid game survive he's using drops and neuro upgrade, and after watching his replay i have to say i found his method more reliable. On your side, upgrade are extremely delayed, it's not a problem on the games you submitted, cause you compo roflstomp the opponent's army, but i'm afraid that when it won't happen, the lack of upgrade will hurt you when reproducing ( assuming your opponent have some ).
I don't want to be an ass here, i love that composition, and i'm glad that you guys share all that with us. It's just some critics here, hope to be constructive and understandable.
Just watched the replays and this unit composition is awesome, BUT in each of your posted games there wasn't any huge battles until ultras are out. What if he decides to push with 2-3 collosus when your ultras are not ready? If toss sees that you teching to hive that fast he should push asap with his first few collosus. And then I think everything depends on how good toss manages to put those forcefields, especially in some situations like shakuras horizontal spawns he can just make a timing attack through the backdoor and you can't flank with baneling, so you won't defend.
On February 22 2011 20:07 Super_bricklayer wrote: Thanks for the new links Muck. So, i've watched them and... Now i'm kind of disappointed. Kind of. You don't upgrade at all, i've watched almost all the pack, you get the speed bling upgrade but, that almost all. No melee or armour. No ultra armour neither, no range for hydra, it's...Weird.
mhm i normaly do at least the melle atack upgrades dont know just took some games i found in my rep folder ^^ normaly.. i have at least + 1 atack sometimes +2 and if its a longe game +3
and i also do banelingspeed of course i dont make other upgrades cause i dont feel its worth/necessary everything on the ground gets killed and i dont net hydraupgrade to fight the voids(sometimes make it vs 6 gate) i dont net the armor upgrades cause everything die so quick its not worth it
thx for the critism thats how its shoud be most toss just dont play like this at least vs me i always feel like they scout me teching to t3 and do nothing at all but adding some voids mhm lings /infestors do pretty well vs colloses in low numbers wituoth much of a defending ball in their front and if he gets 2-3 colloses that early he wont have many FF and not much of armyshield to defend them but yeah that can be very hard if he does it right i think a gate army push with many sentrys at about minute 12 -13 is much harder but you can deal with it when you just build enough hydras
will play some ladder today (maybe even gona turn on my stream) and post some replays to 4/6 gate and earlyer pressure but could be hard since most tosses just want to fe and turtle till they get this "death"ball
On February 22 2011 02:50 MrBitter wrote: Xog and Aquanda were both using this style in the KOTH I hosted with Limenade last night. It's damn impressive.
The style they were using was all about mass expansion, and upgrades for those lings and banes. It's pretty surreal seeing a Zerg go up to 5 bases while Toss is still on 2, and defending it with just tier 1 units.
Edit:
For Voids, and even for normal robo mid-games, Z can easily transition into mass muta. (Hell, Z is on 8 gas by the time lair finishes)
I'm actually hard pressed to think of a unit composition that would challenge this style. It seems extremely strong to me.
Any replays of this by chance? I'd really like to see that style with the mass expansions and everything.
On February 22 2011 23:42 DiaBoLuS wrote: as a protoss on EU, i consider baneling (+drop) + infestor + broodlord/corrupter as the ultimate anti-toss build.
ultras die to almost everything but pure stalker.
Ultras even die to mass blink stalker. Just blink your font lines back simultaneously, which can be difficult at some angles, and you'll rape ultras. Plus they are exactly as fast as stalkers, so when your first blink victims become your front line units again, you can just run in circles until blink/shield resets
I dont agree with this raping ultras bullshit, unit is actually all right. And you could even call it cost effective against any toss composition that doesnt have too many immortals/voids. I really like this build, having fairly nice success with it so far... just need to learn the timings
Muck, been trying your build man, and I must say, I'm impressed.
I only played 2 protosses yesterday, and it worked wonderfully. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the games didn't make it to the late game. Both Tosses went for stargate builds (one a void ray gate timing push, the other like 6 phoenixes), which is actually teh lulz when you do this build. Their gate army dies so fast it's not even funny.
I was worried the second game as the phoenixes did a fair amount of harass just as hydras were popping. Thankfully I got lucky and snuck an Ovie to the corner of his base (shakuras) and nydused (nydused!) lings blings hydras and 2 infestors. He had two collosus at this time as he had just taken his third. Fungaled the collosi and the gateway units, and unleashed hell.
The protoss should have been more careful, but he figured he was so far ahead that there was nothing I could do to him... that is, until the worm popped in his base and his entire army died in about 4 seconds... LOL... beautiful! I figured that he had taken a third, and that my only chance was to go all-in on him, and it worked to fantastic effect. Anyway, I'll post the replays if you're interested.
I'm interested to see how this build unfolds into the late-game. I mean, I've seen you do it on your reps, but have yet to experience it myself. Early and mid-game, it is quite powerful, as most protoss seem completely caught off-guard. They're like: "where the fuck are the roaches?"
I really enjoy the flexibility and map-control this build gives you. If I want to, I can switch to anything I want later, as this build seems to emphasize quick teching. Funnily enough, it's light on the resources too, so I feel like I can expand as well. IDK if you have this expression in Germany, but I feel like "I can have my cake and eat it, too." Will be exploring more later today. Thx for the tip, man.
oh actually there was a third game on scrap where the toss tried to warp prism drop 2 immos/warp-in in my base. Well my three queens and 14 lings had something to say about that.
I only bring this up because I actually kept him from expanding while hard-switching to more standard roach corruptor (he desperately tried to get his collosus count up, while massing zealots). Again, this is a really good example of the flexibility this build gives you.
nice to hear man ! i also feel like i can drone like hell and tech an still have my armie soon enough to defend if he does an atack as lings will pop put very fast and blings are morphed fast as well
On February 22 2011 15:20 Whiplash wrote: Ya I remember playing vs Aquanda last night and had never seen that mass ling build, its pretty hard to deal with. A timing push is prob going to be the best way to deal with it similar to the push against mutaling.
Kind of agree, but its so much harder because there really isn't a tech window in which you can abuse for the timing attack. Ling/bling will come out around the 5-6 minute mark and if you're going for a big attack, it soon becomes all-in because of how quickly the zerg gets ahead of you in economy. I've had some success with warp prisms (back-door drops, dropping on banelings) and keeping up with upgrades, just going for gateway compositions mainly. Also, blink is useful to blink individual stalkers onto masses of banelings. Both the warp-prism & blinking of stalkers requires the opponents attention to be diverted, however, and their effectiveness sharply declines once infestors are out on the field.
Basically, baneling/infestor/ling is way too cost effective and so easy to use that you're really fighting uphill as soon as that baneling nest comes out. Anything that requires the opponent to make him babysit his base and banelings will give protoss more breathing room.
Absolutely. I think the "philosophy" of this build, shall we say, is that if emphasizes aggression much, much more than standard roach/hydra play. When I play "standard", nothing is more frustrating than knowing I can't attack the fucking toss (cuz of FF) until he moves out with a billion collosi and void rays and stalkers and melts my shit in .2 seconds. This build really sticks it to 'em, if you know what I mean.
Also, couple of questions.
1: do you ever use drop-tech with this build? Seems like it could be useful.
2: do you have difficulties when the protoss has exceptionally good micro? Like those 3 ultras breaking FF are amazing, but do you ever find yourself dominated by clever use of FF, while focusing down ultras, while they block them with units, etc. Sry this one is a bit rambly!
1. yeah coud be usefull for banedrops in his eco but you dont need it infight since FF are useless
2. and no normaly not only if im to stupid to micro my ultras but if you have more than 5 you dont even have to micro them .. you have to klick on a ultra and work into the ff .. its really sometimes to hard for me xD if he walls of his ramp with buildings i go macro myself and just outmacro(im normaly ahead in drones/bases) him since he cant come out of his 3rd or i atack his exp that he has to come out
i dont see how blink stalkers would have a chance against ultras with infestors and fg, also in this unit composition the task of the ultras is not to kill stalkers but forcefields and colossi - without that lings and blings become really effective
This build looks very promising, I'm surprised at the lack of interest for a zvp build that doesn't have problems with the "deathball". Keep up giving us tosses a run for our money MucK.
The Toss needed an obs in my base a lot sooner, but as you'll see, he opened phoenix, and saw a spire, so he thought I was playing pretty much "standard." Much to his surprise, I wasn't.
And Muck, considering this is "your" build--as much as a build can belong to somebody--do you mind checking it out and giving me feedback as to my execution? He took an early third, and I was worried about it, But I decided to wait for the ultras anyway. Turns out, that was the right decision.
The genius of this build is that it essentially uses the entire OTHER half of the tech tree that Zergs don't use in ZvP. Standard collosus builds just don't work against it. I'm sure this build has as many weaknesses as Roach/Hydra does, it's just that a lot of protosses seem so stuck in their ways, and haven't fleshed out timings/builds, etc. to counteract it, as I don't think a lot of people are using it..
good things: builded a spire just for case builded about 6 hydra as the hydra den was ready (6gate air) macro late game was ok builded a round of lings when you saw the stalker (in case of 4 gate) quick 3rd
bad things: somehow you had not that many drones at the beginn of the game (maybe because of pylon kill dont know) relative slow ultras stoped building banes after your big atack and made roaches instead think you could have killed him after you destryed his gold but you won so its ok^^
overall quite good consididering its new for you
gona try to play a bit today so i can post some more replays of 4/6gate and early atacks
On February 26 2011 01:11 MucK wrote: ok i watche dit and
good things: builded a spire just for case builded about 6 hydra as the hydra den was ready (6gate air) macro late game was ok builded a round of lings when you saw the stalker (in case of 4 gate) quick 3rd
bad things: somehow you had not that many drones at the beginn of the game (maybe because of pylon kill dont know) relative slow ultras stoped building banes after your big atack and made roaches instead think you could have killed him after you destryed his gold but you won so its ok^^
overall quite good consididering its new for you
gona try to play a bit today so i can post some more replays of 4/6gate and early atacks
Thanks for the feedback, Muck.
I've never actually been in a situation where the Probe layed the pylon and then was killed by my drones. The thinking was that I was going to be safe from cannons (and figured he was cross-positions based on the scout arrival timing) and he couldn't lay another pylon anyway, so I may as well cut some corners and lay down the hatch earlier. Idk, spur of the moment kind of thing.
But yes, drone-count was a little low in the early stages. Need to work on that.
I'm constantly aware that my ultras are late, but I want to be safe. Need to iron out that timing. When do you think I should have teched to ultras instead?
I don't know if switching to roaches was such a bad idea. Here I am, making lings/blings all game, and he is kind of stuck trying to prepare for that, especially after I put him on the backfoot. He made a ton of zealots, and a lot of collosi. I thought it was a good switch, but that's just me.
Also, I can't recall, but do you bother getting Infestor energy upgrade right away?
forgot to add the energy upgrade to good things the roaches werent bad afterall but you should have build some banes as well cause he made many zealots and you had so many lings left but didnt morphed them thast what i wanted to say but the game was over anyway
Wow this build is awesome. I watched all the replays and I was shocked. It seems like the real damage dealer in this build is the banelings. Once they hit the tightly packed death ball, they are doing insane splash damage. And the ultras sole purpose is really to break the forcefields for the banelings, while the fungal growth prevents the army from retreating. Very very nice build. I am for sure going to try this.
The only thing that bothered me was that you kept your entire army on one hotkey! D: At the very least give infestors their own control group. There is no need for them to run headfirst into the deathball. Seems like the ideal hotkey setup would be 1 - ling/bling/ultra, 2 - hydra, 3 - infestor.
Hi. Pretty nice build but what are you gonna to do if toss scouts it? He will quickly transition into dt to harrass you and to make a ton of archons to counter your mass lings. I am not attacking you, just wanna know a respond to dt/archon and maybe MS if late game.
mhm never had problems with archons i mean why should they be better than colloses? about same hp about same dmg vs lings and yeah.. dont know the costs if he scouts it he should go for hts but i dont know if he would had them in time cause normaly ff and colloses are enough for masslings so he will keep producing them before switching to hts and when he sees the ultra cavern its normaly to late for a ht switch
On February 26 2011 04:29 MucK wrote: mhm never had problems with archons i mean why should they be better than colloses? about same hp about same dmg vs lings and yeah.. dont know the costs if he scouts it he should go for hts but i dont know if he would had them in time cause normaly ff and colloses are enough for masslings so he will keep producing them before switching to hts and when he sees the ultra cavern its normaly to late for a ht switch
Archons can tank Blings like champions and deal a boatload of damage to any biological unit (i.e. Ultras).
The combination of Storm/Archon is what really hurts Z.
This actually works surprisingly well against Protoss Some key points though: You have to *rush* ultralisks or else there will be a timing where they can kill you with a gateway ball + colossus. You want to minimize this timing window. What I generally do with my gas is lair after +1 melee and zergling speed, then hive as fast as possible.
On maps where forcefields can completey shut down early to midgame harass (e.g. LT), I'm resorting to researching drop tech and overlord speed now, as soon as I see his expansion going up. The telltale sign in the early game is: he has lots of sentries on maps where he can secure a fast expand with forcefields. I get speedling upgrade, tech to lair and then immediately start the ol drop upgrade and a hydra den, followed by ol speed as soon as i have the gas for it. The early OL speed is also extremely helpful for scouting.
My entire army (mainly zerglings + a couple hydras) will be inside his base at the 9-10 minute mark, way before his first colossus is out. It's all about the timing, the drop NEEDS to happen before he has a colossus out.
I kill his robo bay/star port first, then his nexus then any other tech buildings he might have. Once you drop into his base, build speedlings and rally them into his natural, he will not be able to defend both his base + his natural.
The build is somewhat gas heavy (300/300 for ol speed and ol drops), so you need to get your second gas early + stick to zerglings/crawlers in the early game.
Works like a charm for me so far. An early drop can be extremely powerful if his army consists of lots of sentries + zealots. If the protoss decides to attack you while drop tech + ol speed are building, you can just cancel it and mass units instead.
I think this build is awesome the only problem which Saracen mentioned was that push with a few collosus and gateway units that comes before your ultras are out. I think infestors are key to slowing down the army and if patch 1.3 comes out with the buffs to infestors I think the extra 30% to armored plus extra health would make infestors even more powerful. I think if after a 3 gate expand they go to 6 gate you just throw on extra hydras and if they do robo bay then you need infestors to slow them down maybe even using contaminate to slow down collossus production. What do you guys think?
i ve played a lot with this style, and it is powerfull, unless the P attacks you at good times. Which basicly every good P does, so actually it is useless, sadly, it s a cool way to play
just had a nice 30 min game vs Nelfi (3700) i lost but watch yourself REPLAY think i coud have won with my first atack i just hade to send the infestors first cast a fungal and atack him straith on (atacked his 3rd and lost half my army and all hydras ...) should have taken my 3rd earlyer and i also forgot my upgrades after 1 0 should have realyed on corupters as aa from the beginning and i should never stop building banes ..^^
I've had a lot of success against toss with this build, only one time after i got ultras out have i lost a game with this composition in platinum/diamond league (that happened when my hydras were infront of my ultras and my speedlings/banelings ran in by themselves ..
I've tended to adapt it abit by delaying the gas as much as i can. so i usually go 14 pool, 16 OL then 16 gas. still gets speed out at a decent time and you can start your second queen right after the first one finishes.
Thanks alot for this build muck, I've had alot of fun playing like this compared to the "omg omg omg im gonna die cause i dont have corruptors yet" feel of vP that I've had before.
This build sounds very interesting. This might seem like a silly question but I'm wondering; with so much of your resources going to such larva efficient units early on (ultras) are you able to occationally skip injects in order to get fast creep spread without extra queens? Or are you still able to spend all your larva with this build?
mhm i normaly make creep with my 3rd queen cause you do need the larva (you only make ling/blings early on but after you get your ultras you can skip them for sure ) recently i take my gas after my second queen is half finished to get a better eco/larvacount early on and im normaly able to get 44 drones and still able to defend a 5/6 gate replay
I think getting a couple ultras to break forcefields can be good vs P, especially if you already have the ling/bling upgrades, but I think it's a mistake to make too many. For one, when facing ling/bling, P has to cannon+simcity the crap out of all of his bases to keep them running. This means that when ultras hit the field, their pathing gets screwed up any time they try to attack into a base. Additionally, archons are one of the best units to use against ling/bling and any P with detection is at most 40 seconds away from having an immortal. Ultras are countered by archon/immortal harder than hydras are countered by collosi.
In other words, the ling/bling tech path forces P into a position where he'll be able to defend ultras very efficiently. In my experience, making a lot of ultras is a good way to let P back into a game that he's lost.
On March 09 2011 05:16 kcdc wrote: I think getting a couple ultras to break forcefields can be good vs P, especially if you already have the ling/bling upgrades, but I think it's a mistake to make too many. For one, when facing ling/bling, P has to cannon+simcity the crap out of all of his bases to keep them running. This means that when ultras hit the field, their pathing gets screwed up any time they try to attack into a base. Additionally, archons are one of the best units to use against ling/bling and any P with detection is at most 40 seconds away from having an immortal. Ultras are countered by archon/immortal harder than hydras are countered by collosi.
In other words, the ling/bling tech path forces P into a position where he'll be able to defend ultras very efficiently. In my experience, making a lot of ultras is a good way to let P back into a game that he's lost.
What do you recommend as a follow up, if any then?
On March 09 2011 05:16 kcdc wrote: I think getting a couple ultras to break forcefields can be good vs P, especially if you already have the ling/bling upgrades, but I think it's a mistake to make too many. For one, when facing ling/bling, P has to cannon+simcity the crap out of all of his bases to keep them running. This means that when ultras hit the field, their pathing gets screwed up any time they try to attack into a base. Additionally, archons are one of the best units to use against ling/bling and any P with detection is at most 40 seconds away from having an immortal. Ultras are countered by archon/immortal harder than hydras are countered by collosi.
In other words, the ling/bling tech path forces P into a position where he'll be able to defend ultras very efficiently. In my experience, making a lot of ultras is a good way to let P back into a game that he's lost.
What do you recommend as a follow up, if any then?
Make a few ultras to break forcefields, but don't over-produce them because they can be hard-countered. Ultras are great against stalker/colossus, so there's a temptation to make 15 ultras sort of like P has a temptation to make 15 colossi because they stomp roach/hydra/ling/bling so hard. But like a Protoss who makes 15 colossi will be crushed by a Zerg that gets 2 minutes to pump corruptors, a Zerg that makes 15 ultras will get crushed by a Protoss that buys time to adjust his composition.
After 3-4 ultras, I think you're better off pumping resources into banelings, especially with drop tech. Broodlords are a better lategame unit than ultras, but they don't complement ling/bling well. Broodlings are redundant when you have lings, and you don't have the ranged DPS (hydras) to punish void rays and blink-unders.
My short answer: banelings, more banelings, and drop tech.
If they have a lot of archons, tho, you probably want to back-tech to roaches to thin out the archon numbers. At 300 gas a pop, it takes a loooong time to build up an archon count, so this shouldn't catch you by surprise.
mhm never had problems with archons .. they have about the same health as the colloses and they gona die hard as well but if he somehow manages to beat you back broodlords are the right choice
On March 09 2011 07:04 MucK wrote: mhm never had problems with archons .. they have about the same health as the colloses and they gona die hard as well but if he somehow manages to beat you back broodlords are the right choice
They don't take bonus damage or much splash from ultras, so they tank really well. They have good DPS vs biological and splash lings, but against ultras, their real value is that they get in the way and don't die.
I dont know all the exact timings yet with this builds.
But normaly i am on 5 base (xel naga) arround 18-20 min, when my first ultra come out. I got 2/2 upgrades, banes, 20 hydra, allot of lings, 2 infestor and then my ultra come out.
And suprisly the build works pretty good against deathballs. If you see it is stalker heavy add ultra and lings If you see he have voids. add more hydra. simple.
Becouse it is arround 20 min. The deathball of protoss isnt that big yet. And ultra realy do there job, destroying the forcefields. Make sure you micro the ultra on stalkers and some ultra on collusus. Dont let the ultra fight zealot. let your infestor fungal growth the ball so it can kite your ultra.
This unit composition is pretty strong!
Holding 4 gate with 1-3 spine and lings / banes Holding 5 gate attack with lings / banes / hydra (range upgrade) Timing attack arround 20 min with 3-5 ultra. Dont let protoss grap his 3rd.
have you watched the replays? the ultras do nothing but breaking the forcefields cause they dont even have the change to do damge since the banes rape everythign on ground
On March 09 2011 07:23 Exawn wrote: I just played arround with this build.
I dont know all the exact timings yet with this builds.
But normaly i am on 5 base (xel naga) arround 18-20 min, when my first ultra come out. I got 2/2 upgrades, banes, 20 hydra, allot of lings, 2 infestor and then my ultra come out.
And suprisly the build works pretty good against deathballs. If you see it is stalker heavy add ultra and lings If you see he have voids. add more hydra. simple.
Becouse it is arround 20 min. The deathball of protoss isnt that big yet. And ultra realy do there job, destroying the forcefields. Make sure you micro the ultra on stalkers and some ultra on collusus. Dont let the ultra fight zealot. let your infestor fungal growth the ball so it can kite your ultra.
This unit composition is pretty strong!
Holding 4 gate with 1-3 spine and lings / banes Holding 5 gate attack with lings / banes / hydra (range upgrade) Timing attack arround 20 min with 3-5 ultra. Dont let protoss grap his 3rd.
Good luck denying P's 3rd with a 20 minute timing attack. I feel like I've lost if I'm not taking my third by 12 minutes.
Well i just won a game with the same stratergy against a 3k dia protoss.
My attack hits 15 min mark, 4 ultra!! Protoss 3rd just finished, then i attacked and i just crushed his whole army! He was immortal heavy at that moment, but my hydra killed it easy. 2 fungal on his army, then micro the ultra and infestor.
Send reinforcements! And before i attacked i started a spire. So my second wave of units, were 15 muta and xxx lings. No way he could stop it.
Baneling drops doesnt work against protoss. Sure I had some good wins untill protoss cannons his exp and upgrades to 2/2 gateway units and than your fucked. I promised myself im not going to whine but by god blizzard fucked this game up real good. They are probably hoping all zergs will be spending money on the next expansion so we can finally start winning some matches in ranked.
this build is weak in my opinion. How would u response to a forge first fast expo then a timing push with 1-2 voidray, zealots sentries and mass phoenix? Your infestor dont have enough energy for too many fungal considering they are gas intensive (200 gas). any extra hydra (which also mean cutting down on infestor and bane) will just get pick up by the phoenix. If you cant picture wat im talking about, im referring to AcE vs Idra in the recent IEM V.
The build is AMAZING. Thank you so much! Now Zerg has its own Deathball!!! Oh yeaaah..! I never thought you could tech so fast, but it makes sense if you don't make too many Tier 2 units and prioritize tech before upgrades.
IMO the counter Protoss has to this is Blink stalkers + Storm + Archons and maybe Hallucinations since sentry energy is useless at this point.
On March 10 2011 01:58 Udub wrote: this build is weak in my opinion. How would u response to a forge first fast expo then a timing push with 1-2 voidray, zealots sentries and mass phoenix? Your infestor dont have enough energy for too many fungal considering they are gas intensive (200 gas). any extra hydra (which also mean cutting down on infestor and bane) will just get pick up by the phoenix. If you cant picture wat im talking about, im referring to AcE vs Idra in the recent IEM V.
as far as i rememeber the strategy contains an evo chamber that gives you the ability to get anti-air and like all strategies this is not meant to be good vs everything
against heavy air play you have adapt and change - if the protoss plays air heavy you wont play ground heavy and invest lots of resources into banelings - simply
I think this, with an integration of mass queens would work really well, getting 4-5 queens up to stop vs any type of VR harass (and 1-2 spores per base vs pheonix) would fend well (obviously if he went mass vr, just start getting infsetor/hydra more) but, i still do not think a 2-base ultra is viable, its very all-inish. Once he scouts the ultra den, he can easily pop out 2-4 immortals, which will complerely wreck you (because you wont have an abundance of infestors, due to ultra's, and baneling's gas cost) so, you have to choose between the collosus (which will snipe your infestors if you dont take them over) or the immortals. With the 110 Hp buff on infestors, i can see this working alot better though i guess ^^, just thought i'd give my 2 cents.
On March 10 2011 03:21 BigDates wrote: I think this, with an integration of mass queens would work really well, getting 4-5 queens up to stop vs any type of VR harass (and 1-2 spores per base vs pheonix) would fend well (obviously if he went mass vr, just start getting infsetor/hydra more) but, i still do not think a 2-base ultra is viable, its very all-inish. Once he scouts the ultra den, he can easily pop out 2-4 immortals, which will complerely wreck you (because you wont have an abundance of infestors, due to ultra's, and baneling's gas cost) so, you have to choose between the collosus (which will snipe your infestors if you dont take them over) or the immortals. With the 110 Hp buff on infestors, i can see this working alot better though i guess ^^, just thought i'd give my 2 cents.
You clearly haven’t seen the replay where he mows down those 4 Immortals on Xel Naga. It’s not even a semblance of an issue.
if he plays air heavy just adapt and make more hydras ( you tech fast to them with this tkt so its relative good vs fast air) like someone above already said and immortals wont get killed by ultras but by the 100million lings xD
I experienced a similar if not the same play from a Zerg early today. I lost pretty hard considering my computer went on standby a minute into the game, a bug bit a huge chunk out of me in the beginning of the game, and I was confused even though I obviously scouted what he was doing.
It was just mass lings with around 5-6 queens by the time my phoenix tried to harass him. I think the scary part of this strat is that he can go any tech that he chooses after getting rid of his lings, he can bling bomb me any time he wants, and well... speedlings are just so good. He then transitioned easily into ultras after he destroyed my army.
Can anyone give tips on what's the correct way to respond to this? I was thinking storms and archons might be a good tech to go after spotting it but I don't think air would be good just because he can either switch to hydras or just overrun me with lings.
I was thinking if I do go a Coli build, maybe I can spread my army better and place forcefields in front is what I should of done.
Also, feedback on my play would be greatly appreciated. This is around 3.1k masters.
The options you get from the build are really good tho. more hydras if you see stargates, ling/bling if you see the more typical gateway / colo ball.
I don't have so many problem with 4gates because I decide pretty early to stop drone production and mass lings when I see the signs, but this may be on account of that I'm only in diamond(~3k)
The thing I feel weak to is like a 6gate with a lot of sentries. I haven't watched all the replays but could you give an idea of what you do in those situation Muck?
This build seems fairly solid against Terran aswell, but you swap the hydraden out with spire abit later (around hive tech timeing). Obviously it's fairly close to the Mr bitter ZvT build.
Feels pretty good that we have a somewhat universal ZvT/P build. =)
mhm the last replay i posted he tried a 5gate push (nor really a 6 gate but ..^^) if you know he makes 6 gate you have to morph banes and build some more hydras you can even pull some drones if you feel like you cant hold it i normaly i atack him -->he makes some forcefields and some banes get behind the forcefields then i go back with the rest of my army and do this again and again^^ and build units in the meantime or hes to sutipd to make good forcefields and i win but 6 gate can be real hard if unscoutet in my last replay on site 4 you can see i have two bases saturated and still have about 2 minutes left to build army only for defendign a 6 gate
i went to collo centry stalkr with 160 limit in 4 seconds i had 80 supply.then i switch to voidrays he switch to hydra infestor ultra. GG.is there a way? pls dont tell me good force filed stuff.he bombed me baneling on my death ball and infront 100 lings back 50 bling.
On February 28 2011 01:24 MucK wrote: uploaded another few games
Muck -- any chance of a reupload of your replays? All of them seem to currently say this "Unassigned file limit of 10 downloads reached" -- would love to check some of them out.
Heh muck small world. I found this thread cause I was looking for the thread which discusses robo ht openings... That is a lot more fun to do than collosux openings. I was actually playing against you in the zerg strategy chatroom and then you played against one of my toss practice partners and he beat you using this weird mass gate strategy. I lose a lot to it as well when I try the sling bling build. When I watched the replay he had a lot of room for error, even though you had dropped almost perfectly over his army he actively tried to split his army as much as possible. He makes like 7+ gateways and splits his army very well. And during one of his pushes he gets his 3rd while switching to collosus. It's just hard to deal with, and I'm wondering how you would deal with it in the future? I don't think you really have time to switch to roaches and switch to roach bling drops (Though I think that's the answer-- The problem is as usual scouting the number of gateways he has). And yeah could you reupload your replays as well?
On March 10 2011 04:14 evoKe` wrote: I experienced a similar if not the same play from a Zerg early today. I lost pretty hard considering my computer went on standby a minute into the game, a bug bit a huge chunk out of me in the beginning of the game, and I was confused even though I obviously scouted what he was doing.
It was just mass lings with around 5-6 queens by the time my phoenix tried to harass him. I think the scary part of this strat is that he can go any tech that he chooses after getting rid of his lings, he can bling bomb me any time he wants, and well... speedlings are just so good. He then transitioned easily into ultras after he destroyed my army.
Can anyone give tips on what's the correct way to respond to this? I was thinking storms and archons might be a good tech to go after spotting it but I don't think air would be good just because he can either switch to hydras or just overrun me with lings.
I was thinking if I do go a Coli build, maybe I can spread my army better and place forcefields in front is what I should of done.
Also, feedback on my play would be greatly appreciated. This is around 3.1k masters.
Thanks.
how that zerg was 3.1k masters is beyond me. 2k/2k mins/gas? i can keep my minerals below 300/300 (C broodwar player) and i can;t seem to push masters. aggravating as fuck.
On March 10 2011 19:27 Warrior Madness wrote: Heh muck small world. I found this thread cause I was looking for the thread which discusses robo ht openings... That is a lot more fun to do than collosux openings. I was actually playing against you in the zerg strategy chatroom and then you played against one of my toss practice partners and he beat you using this weird mass gate strategy. I lose a lot to it as well when I try the sling bling build. When I watched the replay he had a lot of room for error, even though you had dropped almost perfectly over his army he actively tried to split his army as much as possible. He makes like 7+ gateways and splits his army very well. And during one of his pushes he gets his 3rd while switching to collosus. It's just hard to deal with, and I'm wondering how you would deal with it in the future? I don't think you really have time to switch to roaches and switch to roach bling drops (Though I think that's the answer-- The problem is as usual scouting the number of gateways he has). And yeah could you reupload your replays as well?
Oo i never played you sry and im on the eu server not na ^^ and i almost NEVER drop and i was never in the zerg strategy channel maybe another one with this name
On March 10 2011 04:14 evoKe` wrote: I experienced a similar if not the same play from a Zerg early today. I lost pretty hard considering my computer went on standby a minute into the game, a bug bit a huge chunk out of me in the beginning of the game, and I was confused even though I obviously scouted what he was doing.
It was just mass lings with around 5-6 queens by the time my phoenix tried to harass him. I think the scary part of this strat is that he can go any tech that he chooses after getting rid of his lings, he can bling bomb me any time he wants, and well... speedlings are just so good. He then transitioned easily into ultras after he destroyed my army.
Can anyone give tips on what's the correct way to respond to this? I was thinking storms and archons might be a good tech to go after spotting it but I don't think air would be good just because he can either switch to hydras or just overrun me with lings.
I was thinking if I do go a Coli build, maybe I can spread my army better and place forcefields in front is what I should of done.
Also, feedback on my play would be greatly appreciated. This is around 3.1k masters.
Thanks.
how that zerg was 3.1k masters is beyond me. 2k/2k mins/gas? i can keep my minerals below 300/300 (C broodwar player) and i can;t seem to push masters. aggravating as fuck.
protip: use archons/storm vs that. srsly.
obviously the mistakes you make are more critical - maybe your resources are low but you make the wrong units
The Toss needed an obs in my base a lot sooner, but as you'll see, he opened phoenix, and saw a spire, so he thought I was playing pretty much "standard." Much to his surprise, I wasn't.
And Muck, considering this is "your" build--as much as a build can belong to somebody--do you mind checking it out and giving me feedback as to my execution? He took an early third, and I was worried about it, But I decided to wait for the ultras anyway. Turns out, that was the right decision.
Oo i never played you sry and im on the eu server not na ^^ and i almost NEVER drop and i was never in the zerg strategy channel maybe another one with this name
Thanks for the updates. I'm sure it was you! It wasn't your name but you were actually smurfing on your platinum friends account and that you were a 3.2k master. Maybe is was someone different though
Been playing around with this and really like it. The fact that you go t3 on 2 bases with some hydras to me feels a lot safer and more solid than Aquanda's style where you take 3 bases before lair. In early game with mass ling/bling and good flanks you should be able to hold off common builds, in midgame the addition of hydras and infestors give you a lot of flexibility and as you rush to ultras to break the forcefields for your banelings; it feels so refined and it's really fun to play. I'm sure this build can be optimized a lot, especially when I play it, and there will probably be some timing attacks of Protoss which will be hard to hold, but so far I'm lovin it.
you shoudnt stay on 2 bases for to long (its normaly enough but..) you can take your 3rd base like you woul normaly do or even sonner its not supossed to be a 2 base allin (even when i think some people think it is xD) i recently take it at about 8-9 minutes depending on the game a little bit latter
On March 12 2011 01:57 MucK wrote: you shoudnt stay on 2 bases for to long (its normaly enough but..) you can take your 3rd base like you woul normaly do or even sonner its not supossed to be a 2 base allin (even when i think some people think it is xD) i recently take it at about 8-9 minutes depending on the game a little bit latter
Dont worry, I usually end up with like 5 bases. Just slightly uncomfortable teching to t3 ánd taking a third base.
So this was a bit of a weird game (vs a ~3200 master Protoss). I didn't scout his 6gate and thought I was relatively safe to tech quickly, then when he moved out I thought I was done for, check the army values, screenshots should tell you the story well enough
Hi I use this strat since you have posted it right here and everything was excellent until I got better enemies. A good P usually scouts what I do and while morphing my hive he pushes with 2-3 collosi and some gateway units and quickly own me. I cannot touch him just because of ff. What should I do?
On March 14 2011 02:08 Netto. wrote: Hi I use this strat since you have posted it right here and everything was excellent until I got better enemies. A good P usually scouts what I do and while morphing my hive he pushes with 2-3 collosi and some gateway units and quickly own me. I cannot touch him just because of ff. What should I do?
i normaly have ultras out before he has more than 2 colloses ecxept if he makes nexus first (what ace did) then you have to make more army before teching to hive
I get the feeling this requires pretty good creep spread in general - ultralisks tend to get manhandled if there's no creep anywhere. That noted, when should you grab the extra queen? The early lair makes it tricky to even get 2 queens.
I'm not certain I like the hydra den though. Don't roaches feel like they might mesh better with banelings? Don't you want something that absorbs in the early/mid game rather than a DPSer since banelings are already a ton of front-loaded damage.
In case of Stargate, Pit+queens is enough for air defense imo. Only need hydras added on if they're trying to make like >5 void rays or >8 phoenix. Skipping hydra den saves gas - roaches cost less, and the important upgrade (roach speed vs hydra range) is cheaper. 6gates can be stopped easily with roach-ling + a couple spines so sentries dont manhandle you. Banelings probably make this even more effective of a defense. Spines are cheap, just 1 larva+150min. Don't forget to move them as the game goes on and you have better places to put them (I like defending third/4th with them if army is hanging about the nat, or you can set up a bunch for a midgame stalling technique)
Really like the idea of this playstyle, going to adapt it to hatch first (when toss doesn't manage to block your hatch) General order I want to follow with this, I'll hammer out timings in a bit: Hatch Pool Gas (15 15 17 is ideal. 14 14 16 is acceptable.) 2xqueen, Speed Banelingnest, first evo chamber 3rd queen, lair if not getting 4gated, 4 gasses, second evo chamber (Hydra den or roach warren), Banespeed, melee+carapace upgrades, third base (6 gasses immediately after third finishes) Infestation pit if not getting 6gated, followed immediately by hive Ultralisk cavern
On March 16 2011 15:30 sylverfyre wrote: I get the feeling this requires pretty good creep spread in general - ultralisks tend to get manhandled if there's no creep anywhere. That noted, when should you grab the extra queen? The early lair makes it tricky to even get 2 queens.
I'm not certain I like the hydra den though. Don't roaches feel like they might mesh better with banelings? Don't you want something that absorbs in the early/mid game rather than a DPSer since banelings are already a ton of front-loaded damage.
In case of Stargate, Pit+queens is enough for air defense imo. Only need hydras added on if they're trying to make like >5 void rays or >8 phoenix. Skipping hydra den saves gas - roaches cost less, and the important upgrade (roach speed vs hydra range) is cheaper. 6gates can be stopped easily with roach-ling + a couple spines so sentries dont manhandle you. Banelings probably make this even more effective of a defense. Spines are cheap, just 1 larva+150min. Don't forget to move them as the game goes on and you have better places to put them (I like defending third/4th with them if army is hanging about the nat, or you can set up a bunch for a midgame stalling technique)
Really like the idea of this playstyle, going to adapt it to hatch first (when toss doesn't manage to block your hatch) General order I want to follow with this, I'll hammer out timings in a bit: Hatch Pool Gas (15 15 17 is ideal. 14 14 16 is acceptable.) 2xqueen, Speed Banelingnest, first evo chamber 3rd queen, lair if not getting 4gated, 4 gasses, second evo chamber (Hydra den or roach warren), Banespeed, melee+carapace upgrades, third base (6 gasses immediately after third finishes) Infestation pit if not getting 6gated, followed immediately by hive Ultralisk cavern
muck's build is very well thought out. (b)ling/hydra/spine crushes 6 gate. this is important because it allows you to kill his army while preserving most of yours, which makes your late game push stronger. roaches cant shoot up, hydras are your air defense\vr killers. plus ultra/ling tanks better then roaches, and does more dps.
i think something has to be said for the supply roach vs hydra too. if i have two 175 food armies, ling/bling/ultra/infestor, but the last 30 food of each is different. one is 15 roaches and one is 15 hydras. if resources arent an issue, and collosus will not get more then a few shots off, hydras are suddenly much much better in this situation. they can shoot up, which the roach army can't do besides infested terrans, their dps and range are also higher. the range is huge, hydras stand in the back and shoot shit, roaches get bunched up and run around, or you will have one nice firing arc, but the rest run around behind them.
in this unit composition, hydras play a critical role. i wouldnt replace them, especially with roaches.
and hatching first zvp is a headache not worth dealing with.
Apparently you and I have completely different opinions on hydras. I still find them to be a terrible unit, even when you have them behind something to "tank" damage. Even when there's air units you have to deal with - I prefer dealing with those via queen and infestor. Hell, in a comp that gets ultras, getting extra queens seems glorious, because transfuse is gonna be brilliant.
Basically, that "If colossus will not get more than a few shots off" situation is NOT something I ever want to bet on. I'll take the 15 roaches. If ANYTHING gets to do damage to your hydras for like... 1 second, you're taking losses. This holds true for holding off that 6gate - I feel more comfortable with holding off a 6gate with roaches and not hydras, particularly if I want to get through it while *preserving as much of my army as possible*
On March 17 2011 00:58 sylverfyre wrote: Apparently you and I have completely different opinions on hydras. I still find them to be a terrible unit, even when you have them behind something to "tank" damage. Even when there's air units you have to deal with - I prefer dealing with those via queen and infestor. Hell, in a comp that gets ultras, getting extra queens seems glorious, because transfuse is gonna be brilliant.
Basically, that "If colossus will not get more than a few shots off" situation is NOT something I ever want to bet on. I'll take the 15 roaches. If ANYTHING gets to do damage to your hydras for like... 1 second, you're taking losses. This holds true for holding off that 6gate - I feel more comfortable with holding off a 6gate with roaches and not hydras, particularly if I want to get through it while *preserving as much of my army as possible*
Do the build properly and you will see that Colossi only get a few shots on Ultras that do nothing before they're chewed into tidbits.
I think an important thing to note that this build requires aggressively expanding and very fast upgrades for the melee units. Mobility is how this build wins. The lings are so fast that every time he tries to push out you can really punish his expansions with lings. You win by outproducing the toss. With all the hatches up, you can make lings much faster than they can warp in sentries, and the ultras just eat collosi. Voids aren't as much of a problem as you would think, because you can kill his ground army so fast, and then clean up with hydras (or late game some corruptors). If he goes mass voids, then in essence you've already won because you've forced him to avoid the dreaded death ball and can feel much safer about producing hydras.
What I like about the build that's different from Aquanda's is that by showing Toss the Hydras, he thinks he's safe going Colossus. Little does he know...
Also, the hydras are so amazing at defending heavy gateway pushes behind one or 2 spines. They don't care much about forcefields then.
Aquanda goes Corruptors in the midgame, which is ok I guess, but he's having problems with turtling Ps, which InControl said is the adequate response vs heavy ling-bane opening. The builds are very different. Aquanda stays on Tier 1 much longer.
EPT
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