Your threads have helped my zerg play immensely. I'm really grateful for your contributions to the zerg community, your 12 weeks series is killer and I can't wait to try out this build on ladder!

DrDoom

United States107 Posts

February 15 2011 03:31 GMT

#103

Thanks for making the writeup and getting these replays together! I've been impressed by this strat since I saw TLO do it a while ago. Catz has been using this too recently.

b3serker

Canada11 Posts

February 15 2011 03:32 GMT

#104

For those talking about the slow tank pushes:

Early tank pushes the Terran will have mostly bio with a couple tanks. As scary as that is, sling/infestor can basically overrun that imo especially if Terran doesn't have decent medivac support (and the more medivacs he has, the less tanks will be there).

Late game, I find that Ultra/ling/bling actually does a damn good job of breaking tank lines. Sure, the ultras will probably take a ton of damage but then the ling/bling hits and stuff just vanishes. Its beaaaautiful to watch

dc302

Australia576 Posts

February 15 2011 03:46 GMT

#105

Loving your coaching show! I too started to try this after Mr.Bitter did, and it has been working quite well!

Dromar

United States2145 Posts

February 15 2011 03:48 GMT

#106

Hey, thanks for mentioning this to me in my blog back then. You're right, it's like a complete 180 on how ZvT is played. Quite an eye opener.

Thanks again.

ch33psh33p

7650 Posts

February 15 2011 03:50 GMT

#107

Haha I've always hated ZvT. Was never bad at them, just hated playing the matchup in general, but this composition is just SO FUN.

Thanks so much MrBitter.

zergrushkekeke

Australia241 Posts

February 15 2011 04:09 GMT

#108

Will watch the replays and try this tonight. My main problem with infestors are mine seem to charge in to the front lines (my horrible micro).

I have got the hang of the muta harass but always felt like if i had too many mutas there it was effectively splitting my army, and if i had to few he could just leave a few marines and turrets and just stomp on in to my base. Map control isn't much if you can't get an army that beats his by the time he gets to your base.

Asecret05

32 Posts

February 15 2011 05:57 GMT

#109

infestors are awesome against terran and zergs, but generally scouting is like near impossible before mutas are out and u just make due with whatever hints you are able to force out. And you just said yourself bashees gives u a problem, terran having air control is really scary and those fungals are better suited for marines unless there's like 8 bashees stacked up together.

Not only that, but wouldn't a decent amount of blue flame hellions incinerate all your lings in 1 second? Also, exactly what type of players are u playing against? Tanks are precisely why infestors aren't as popular against terran, the second they pop up from ground they die instantly against because 2 tank shot kills it and it has the highest threat; yet you claim to parasite half their tanks?

Sajuuk7

134 Posts

February 15 2011 06:42 GMT

#110

Mutalisk really are horrible in straight up combat for their 100 gas price.

I still think this build is going to have trouble with Marine+Tank though, because Infestor's evaporate in just two tank blasts. Neural Parasiting Sieged Tanks is incredibly dangerous and nearly impossible.

I'll have to watch the replays you posted and see if that is actually possible, but until then I remain skeptical on how the Siege Tanks are going to die without Mutalisk/Ultralisk.

nanoscorp

United States1237 Posts

February 15 2011 07:18 GMT

#111

Having played a few more games with this style, I've had more success with an earlier baneling nest (during lair upgrade.) In my games I noticed a window between speedlings and infestors that felt vulnerable to 1-base pushes. Could be bad opponents, or loose timing on my part, with delays along the infestor critical path. Do you feel safe going straight for infestors against a 1-base terran who isn't letting you scout much?

Overseers... so good. Contaminate on the armory can help preserve an armor advantage for your lings, and changeling + infestor FG just feels mean

ProtossGirl

England123 Posts

February 15 2011 07:55 GMT

#112

T doesn't have as much opportunity to harass with drops as people seem to exaggerate.

In my opinion fungal growth stops harass flat. by the midgame you can afford to have an infestor hold back in your main at the obvious drop point, which of course you have scouted by multiple Overlords as far as the air around your base allows.

it ALL comes down to scouting.

Stil

United Kingdom206 Posts

February 15 2011 08:21 GMT

#113

I've been doing this vs terran since I first saw it in your stream and now my win rate vs terran is 90% Thanks Mr Bitter. Hearts <3

FabledIntegral

United States9232 Posts

February 15 2011 08:25 GMT

#114

Just quipping in, I also have a much harder time countering this style of play, and to top it off, it typically transitions to faster broodlords.

You have to stop producing marine tank vs this and instead transition to more MMM with a relatively heavy emphasis on Marauders, or go a more mech oriented build.

I mostly have trouble recognizing that the player isn't going muta and is going infestor until I actually SEE the infestor, wherein by the time I try to alter my unit composition Broodlords are close to knocking on my door.

Whitewing

United States7483 Posts

February 15 2011 08:28 GMT

#115

Zerg shouldn't have a lot of trouble with drops if you're playing well, spread those overlords out, and lots of creep. You should have vision everywhere as a zerg player, and should see drops coming a mile away.

vojnik

Macedonia923 Posts

February 15 2011 09:51 GMT

#116

Thanks Mr Bitter for this awesome guide, gonna implement it in my ZvT for sure

A thing i really want to ask after watching the replays is your larvae spit, do you use some macro? because u have this fast base switch spit mechanic i dont think i can emulate with normal taping and clicking. Can you please enlighten me how you do it?
Thanks a lot in advance

Antisocialmunky

United States5912 Posts

February 15 2011 13:31 GMT

#117

Infestors are quite scary compared to mutas and agreed that they are much harder to deal with when controlled well.

With this style, you should consider getting overlord drops and dropping lings in the Terran base since otherwise Terran can doom push you before you can do anything about it. Even if you have a silly amount of infestors, the mass tank army will crush most types of mass ground.

thesideshow

930 Posts

February 15 2011 13:38 GMT

#118

Thanks mrbitter! I remember experimenting with infestors this awhile back. Thanks for showing how powerful it really is!

zeroISM

Japan161 Posts

February 15 2011 13:39 GMT

#119

Thank you very mch MrBitter for this!
I'll be trying this out and implement it into my playstyle.

Super_bricklayer

France104 Posts

February 15 2011 13:49 GMT

#120

I've got a question for ya Mr bitter. I feel that their is a weak windows in that opening, i'm not too sure about that, but the push on the xel naga cavern ( against Shoey, about 10/12 minutes ) comfort me about it. It feels like you won't have enough fungal to be safe.

Maybe it's the fast third that could be a macro hatch instead ( you are in need of larvae at that moment ), but did you test maybe one upgrade before lair ?
It could be armour i guess, not too sure. But won't it make your army more solid against those 10 min push ?

Again i don't know if it's the build that should be refine to have some fungal sooner, or maybe have them a little after and put more gaz on your zergling.

Dimaga played a lot with some fast +1 and it works pretty well ( in ZvP, don't know about ZvT ). The upgrades on your replay are not so fast, you catch them after with double evo, but won't it open a windows where you need some more solid defences ?

Baneling is an option you seems to choose, but i don't like it so much, it's pretty gaz heavy, the speed upgrade is needed and the gaz in your army will be gone once the bane die. I would even prefer roaches actually ( pure theory craft i have to say ) for having a little more solid defence early game if needed and most of all, the option of stop putting gas in the army ( cause baneling will take some regularly ). I feel it's kind of a trap to produce baneling if your goal is the fungal.

The all point is how big the marines ball is. Zergling are good against them if the number you are facing isn't too big. Fungal is our response to that, but it feels pretty late...Not sure i'm clear here, my English sucks pretty hard and it's more of a feeling, which is pretty hard to talk about.
I d like too have your thought about that timing ( is it just me ? Maybe infestors come right in time ? ), and how you scout it/answer too it. I'm pretty sure that map distance enter into consideration here too. And now i even feel my question don't have any answer and is pure theory bullshit. ^^

Edit : I have practice it a little with a terran partner, high diamond so i'm not to confident about that, still i'm pretty much convince for the fast +1 armour before lair with that build. It helped me like a lot, as said here Marines take 1 more hit on Ling, [...] Zerglings survive sieged tank shots. It's a gas investment that hit way before lair where you need the pit and 30% of the upgrade before even start producing some infestors.