EPT[G/D] Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT - Page 17
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
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DisaFear
Australia4074 Posts
Defs gonna try this when I get ZvT, sounds interesting, and Infestors are always fun to use. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
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steveo47829
United States6 Posts
Robo (Zerg) v Murfawgg (Terran) Xel'Naga | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
About the strength of Ultralisks to bust Terran strongpoints i made a small video from a recent game where 8 ultralisks and lots of zerglings destroyed about 15 tanks, 2 thors, a bunch of marines and a PF and at the end i still had 7 ultralisks. The opponent (though ~2.4k diamond) was lacking in upgrades, but his tanks were nicely spread. I mostly a-moved in and didn't micro at all, nor did i use fungal growth (i tried infested terran bombs earlier, but he scanned the infestors and killed most of them). Important part is: First send in the ultralisks and let them tank siege damage, then follow up with the speedlings immedatly when the ultralisks take the first hits. This way most of your Zerglings will survive until they are close enough to use their high DPS to kill everything. | ||
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Celadan
Norway471 Posts
its really good i have checked it myself. You know, its great that you can change up this build in the later stages of the game. But really, reacting to what the enemy does while doing this build is devestating to the enemy because its the most solid ZvT build i have seen so far. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Sticking to Muta/baneling til I can figure out what I'm missing on this or w/e | ||
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Ixildor
3 Posts
I forget my rank, 2k plat I guess so I am horrible at this game by pro standards. But I do play with Diamond ranked players who are my friends. And thinking this way has helped me not die Quite so bad vs them. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On March 04 2011 16:31 sylverfyre wrote: When using this style, I've really been struggling at securing a third against terrans who like mobility - dropship play, (blue)hellions, or banshees - any kind of map dominance that lings can't deal with on their own just makes me feel terrified because I can't see ANYTHING. - I often end up underdroning, too. Sticking to Muta/baneling til I can figure out what I'm missing on this or w/e Infestors. Lots of infestors. Dropship play: Dropships can easily get fungaled, then just throw down 3-4 infested terrans and kill them before they can escape. 1 infestor can fungal while the others move in from your main army, if necessary keep 2 infestors per mining base. Hellions: Fungal Growth -> Fungal Growth -> Fungal Growth -> Hellions dead (You can add queens, too) Banshees: Fungal Growth (decloaks them) -> Gather queens -> Fungal again -> Kill banshees with queens The only thing this build is really vulnerable to are double starport banshees without cloak as they arrive before you can get enough infestors, though if you scout that build, then you can get 2 more queens per base and/or spore crawlers. You won't need that many lings after all => more larva for drones. | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
feels like this build is flawed because the main problem is that terran can get fast 3rd on any long ground distance map (ie metalopolis cross position), you cannot really punish him because he has a much smaller area he needs to defend than against mutaling. Then another problem is, once terran gets 3rd base, he can literally start dropping you everywhere on map and even though you may have static defense, that will drop down fast because of upgraded rines, not to mention he can snipe your hatcheries with just a handful of units. The drops become really unhandleable and it puts you to a defensive position until you get ultras and broodlords, and at that point terran may already have 3rd expo CC building as PF. maybe it's just me doing something wrong, but this build seems like a paradise for hyperaggressive terrans, however it works very well against the passive ones. I'll try to implement defensive nyduses to be able to cover for drops since my army has to move back and forth otherwise. have to say though, the style of play has an incredibly high skill ceiling and takes enormous amounts of practice to see those aggressive terran drops as second nature. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On March 10 2011 14:21 EonuS wrote: 3350 master zerg here, some feedback from playing against aggressive terrans around 3500-3600 master level: feels like this build is flawed because the main problem is that terran can get fast 3rd on any long ground distance map (ie metalopolis cross position), you cannot really punish him because he has a much smaller area he needs to defend than against mutaling. Then another problem is, once terran gets 3rd base, he can literally start dropping you everywhere on map and even though you may have static defense, that will drop down fast because of upgraded rines, not to mention he can snipe your hatcheries with just a handful of units. The drops become really unhandleable and it puts you to a defensive position until you get ultras and broodlords, and at that point terran may already have 3rd expo CC building as PF. maybe it's just me doing something wrong, but this build seems like a paradise for hyperaggressive terrans, however it works very well against the passive ones. I'll try to implement defensive nyduses to be able to cover for drops since my army has to move back and forth otherwise. have to say though, the style of play has an incredibly high skill ceiling and takes enormous amounts of practice to see those aggressive terran drops as second nature. I'm just a diamond noob, but i somehow don't see how that can happen. 1. Drops get completely shut down by Infestors. Fungal growth the medivac (if possible on a place where he can't drop the marines), if he drops the marines fungal everything again while 20 of your heavily upgraded speedlings run back. If he tries to run, drop infested terrans and shoot down the medivacs. As MrBitter says in some of his lessons, you have to be able to split your army very fast on the fly. No 1-hotkey syndrome allowed. 2. The terran can't get a third up very fast, because speedlings give a lot of mapcontrol and unless he has lots of tanks he can't defend his natural and third at the same time effectively. You need very good scouting for that and as soon as he tries to get his third up, attack it with ~10 Speedlings and deny it until he moves in his army, putting him on the backfoot. Then scout his natural and try to see if you can make a run-by. 3. Infestors allow you to harass very easily. For example: On Shattered Temple throw infested terrans up the cliff of his main (with overlord spotting) and start killing buildings. He has to send defenses to kill your energy-only units or he will lose buildings. On Xel'Naga Caverns throw infested terrans from the cliff on the low ground expansion or up into his main). Especially the lowground mineral line is vulnerable to infested terran harass and getting fungaled. Think of your infestors as slightly weaker, burrowed high templars that can spit out marines, much like the banshees are flying, ranged dark templars, except infestors are more awesome. With this build you very much rely on good speedling control, good scouting and good reaction time/minimap awareness. It has an extremly high skill ceiling, but once you get a feeling for infestors and how effective speedlings actually are, it is actually extremly rewarding. Just don't make the mistake i always do and drone too much while thinking "my infestors can slow any push anyways, i'll just drone a little more"... while not having hive or ultralisks ready when his 2 base 8 thor push arrives. | ||
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GrapeD
Canada679 Posts
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
I'm just a diamond noob, but i somehow don't see how that can happen. 1. Drops get completely shut down by Infestors. Fungal growth the medivac (if possible on a place where he can't drop the marines), if he drops the marines fungal everything again while 20 of your heavily upgraded speedlings run back. If he tries to run, drop infested terrans and shoot down the medivacs. As MrBitter says in some of his lessons, you have to be able to split your army very fast on the fly. No 1-hotkey syndrome allowed. They do get shut down by infestors if you expect the incoming attack, but without mutas, there will always be few vikings on the field to prevent any sort of sight from the zerg, I mean, he can easily make 2 vikings for harass since he has a reactored starport anyway. The main point of these drops is to delay you from being aggressive against him while he gets expansions up and running. It's a low risk-high reward choice since medivacs are both dropships and medics at once, even though it may seem like he's in disadvantage after losing all of those drops, it pays off once his expo starts running. Once he does that, the difficulty of keeping control as zerg increases exponentially. The main problem with fungals is, most of the good terrans already know how to spread marines enough to avoid having all of them hit not to mention that because of the vikings keeping your overlord sight away, you have that much less time to react to a drop, especially if you are already fighting for position against his main army. 2. The terran can't get a third up very fast, because speedlings give a lot of mapcontrol and unless he has lots of tanks he can't defend his natural and third at the same time effectively. You need very good scouting for that and as soon as he tries to get his third up, attack it with ~10 Speedlings and deny it until he moves in his army, putting him on the backfoot. Then scout his natural and try to see if you can make a run-by. First of all, denying the 3rd with just a handful of speedlings is not something that works against better players. Not only that most of them build the command center somewhere where it's safe from harass (ie outside their natural) but also, all you need to do is have a handful of spread marines (you scout infestation play with a scan anyway -- fast 2 evos which indicates heavy ground and no mutas?) and 2-3 tanks in order to defend against any sort of harass. let's take metalopolis cross position as prime example. Terran can defend both natural and expo with 3-4 sieged tanks and marines, and you do NOT want to hit a fortified position with a heavy ground army. It may work if you have perfectly placed infested terrans to soak the damage from tanks but the good players know what focus fire means. It's still a tough fight but all I am saying it, it is very much easier to get a faster 3rd down with this kind of play than with mutaling. Let's say, terran can start building the expo at 10th minute instead of the usual 12th-13th without any prior battling. 3. Infestors allow you to harass very easily. For example: On Shattered Temple throw infested terrans up the cliff of his main (with overlord spotting) and start killing buildings. He has to send defenses to kill your energy-only units or he will lose buildings. On Xel'Naga Caverns throw infested terrans from the cliff on the low ground expansion or up into his main). Especially the lowground mineral line is vulnerable to infested terran harass and getting fungaled. Think of your infestors as slightly weaker, burrowed high templars that can spit out marines, much like the banshees are flying, ranged dark templars, except infestors are more awesome. I can agree to this, I use them aggressively in attempt to deny terran's 3rd myself this way. With this build you very much rely on good speedling control, good scouting and good reaction time/minimap awareness. It has an extremly high skill ceiling, but once you get a feeling for infestors and how effective speedlings actually are, it is actually extremly rewarding. Just don't make the mistake i always do and drone too much while thinking "my infestors can slow any push anyways, i'll just drone a little more"... while not having hive or ultralisks ready when his 2 base 8 thor push arrives. Can also agree with the high skill ceiling, however the only problem I feel is that it's very underused because mutaling does almost same good job as the infestor play does, and that is probabbly why most of the zergs don't use it yet, but now that every terran already blind counters mutaling play it's best to start thinking of new ways to evolve the metagame. disclaimer -- everything I've said is based on my own opinion and experience | ||
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Psychlone
Canada90 Posts
On February 27 2011 07:54 madzumo wrote: This new patch really screws up the Infetors. That projectile addition is the WORST. What's the point if you can so easily dodge it? Check it out: Granted blink is fast but I don't see Stimed Marines being any different. Infestors will now just be useful to harrass at mineral lines and only if they don't have turrents/cannon/& nearby units. OH MY GOD! That green goo ball is SOOOO slow!! Here I was thinking it was going to be like a Viking missile or something. When I see ludicrous things such as Slag Pits or removing Kaydarin Amulet, I wonder if the people in charge have any idea what they’re doing. Now marines will stim and be like "LOL infestors"! Seriously, if they stim and run straight forward past the missile they’ll kill the infestor without being hit. Splendid... The game is more balanced as it is right now. Sigh... This will make the Infestor an officially useless unit. Why???? | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
am only gold lvl player myself but this does not seem like a good idea to me I play teran myself and i find mutas extremely annoying. When i see an infestor however i think: "o hey an infestor, hmm that doesnt do annything, lets go forward" my biggest concern would be that zerg has no air unit wich allows the terran/toss to completely skip air defence as well and go hardcore on tank hellion/ maybe marauder or zealot immortal Muta forces marine and although most zerg see the marine as extremely powerfull, it isnt the strongest unit terran has beside that i dont see how zerg could keep terran countained for a while because without mutas terran is basicly free to leave his base with a wall and 1 tank behind? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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Psychlone
Canada90 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:31 Rassy wrote: interesting idea am only gold lvl player myself but this does not seem like a good idea to me I play teran myself and i find mutas extremely annoying. When i see an infestor however i think: "o hey an infestor, hmm that doesnt do annything, lets go forward" my biggest concern would be that zerg has no air unit wich allows the terran/toss to completely skip air defence as well and go hardcore on tank hellion/ maybe marauder or zealot immortal Muta forces marine and although most zerg see the marine as extremely powerfull, it isnt the strongest unit terran has beside that i dont see how zerg could keep terran countained for a while because without mutas terran is basicly free to leave his base with a wall and 1 tank behind? Not really. In Gold, your opponents don't know how to control Infestors and Zerglings correctly. At a higher level, if you leave your base to push, he will fungal your army along the way and hit your natural with speedlings and kill all your SCVs. And he will still have enough lings to crush your push. Sure he won’t kill your main, but he will do enough damage or force you to turtle up hard while he takes his fourth and fifth bases. And marine IS the strongest unit terran has for cost. | ||
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Onironauta
1 Post
I have good win% with this style of play. Most terrans in high diamond/low masters can't break it. Usually i have to make 4/5 broodlords before the ultras, just to buy time. Plus it forces more marines/vikings. Nydus worms work really nice with ultras... not so much with zerglings though, because of the bottleneck mechanic. Hit and run attacks are the way to go. Multiple nydus worms are a must. You can't expect to land single worms. It's best to do counterattacks with the nydus worms than to attack a turtling terran... that simply won't happen. Drops followed by worms work well also. Retreating once the defence arrives is imperative. In this scenario, adding some hydras for the dps helps me from time to time. Nydus also help to stall till the ultras arrive... it serves as a pin. Especially when heavy mech comes into play. Too bad you don't see a lot of nydus play in top level games. Maybe some in zvp. | ||
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
does the PTR release still feature the bonus dmg and/or the more 'compact' duration? | ||
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