EPT[G/D] Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT - Page 16
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 23 2011 20:01 Tudi wrote: I'm a huge muta fan but honestly, I so want to try adapting to this playstyle. I always knew infestors are amongst the best units in my arsenal but was always too afraid to use them since they're quite an investment and require above-average micro. Also, I honestly think queens should be integrated better in these ling-infestor builds since you'll be able to get the air defense early on, the scouting and map control mutas provide through faster creep spread and a bunch of healbots for your ultras/broods later on. P.S. MrBitter, I saw your stream the other day as you had that epic match against a 2900ish terran on shakuras horizontal. He totally destroyed your main with a marauder push through the rocks but you fought back with fungal/neural to win the game and make him ragequit. I was wondering if there's anywhere I can get that replay from since I can't, for the life of me, remember what his name was (Airforce, airsomething?). Maybe someone else here knows what I'm talking about and can point me in the right direction. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143454-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau Also, in response to the LT cliff dilemma: I am going to open roach 100% of the time on LT. This lets me deal with cliff stuff much more effectively. After opening roach, though, you can still transition into infestors at lair tech... Really just comes down to what you scout. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On February 24 2011 02:00 MrBitter wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143454-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau Oh man, that supply block immediately before the marauder push was painful to watch. It's the absolute worst feeling - when you not only supply block yourself, but you do it right at the exact moment in a game where you absolutely need to be creating as many units as humanly possible. | ||
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Swig
United States54 Posts
I've been having some good success with it, but mech is the only thing giving me problems, especially with lots of hellions. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
On February 24 2011 00:40 Sandermatt wrote: So if this strategies are so hard if unscouted, should I always steal the gas (even on maps like scrap station?) i always steel gas, coz it will delay terrans banshee tech. except i see 2 rax..then its obviosly a waste of time and minerals to steal gas. whats the differents between stealing gas on scrap station or any other map? | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
On February 24 2011 02:00 MrBitter wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143454-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau Also, in response to the LT cliff dilemma: I am going to open roach 100% of the time on LT. This lets me deal with cliff stuff much more effectively. After opening roach, though, you can still transition into infestors at lair tech... Really just comes down to what you scout. when you open roach, do you research overlord drop and speed? its an huge investment, but you can do sick counter attacks while terran is harrassing your natural. | ||
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Tudi
Romania127 Posts
On February 24 2011 02:00 MrBitter wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143454-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau Also, in response to the LT cliff dilemma: I am going to open roach 100% of the time on LT. This lets me deal with cliff stuff much more effectively. After opening roach, though, you can still transition into infestors at lair tech... Really just comes down to what you scout. Thank you for the link, I'll check it out since it was one of my favorite games I've seen on your stream  Regarding the roach idea, I used to think a couple of spine crawlers + transfuses would work much better, because then I could skip roach warren. But in the last few weeks or so, every ZvT I play I'm actually forced to make a roach warren since I'm either against a hellion harasser or a tank leapfrogger. i always steel gas, coz it will delay terrans banshee tech. except i see 2 rax..then its obviosly a waste of time and minerals to steal gas. whats the differents between stealing gas on scrap station or any other map? I guess any close air/long rush positions immediately spark the possibility of early air and skinny defenses. In a banshee rush, the 15-20 seconds you win on a close air map against zerg are crucial imho, since we either need lair tech or evo + spores. The alternative of course is massing up queens with the extra minerals, a tactic that I always favor over a quick lair | ||
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Malkavian183
Turkey227 Posts
I think the key here is to use your infestors wisely i have encountered marine siege tank with really melts away against this, also full mech isn't that good if you can get your upgrades fast enough and put up 2-3 spinecrawlers then tech to ultras banelings with 3 or more bases it is pretty much GG. (especially if you can deny the 3rd base of terran) I don't think hellions really matter if you can use fungal growth with high efficiency. You should scout well against Destiny Cloud Fist or drops and if you macro well enough you are good to go. This build changed my whole game not only against T but with also against P. Thanks to MrBitter for making game a little bit more interesting for me ^^ | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
And in other cases, like against blue flame hellions or mech in general, and cliff drops on LT you really need that early roach warren to make the roaches. You could make spines instead, but then you are still in a terrible spot to ever move out of your base, take a third, and so on. Making spines just feels dumb, because then, you end up having the weaker army, and also less overall mobility than the terran. So imo, early roach warren ftw. | ||
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PD
Norway66 Posts
The huge con on the other hand is that drops is going to be a huge pain in the ass to stop without mutalisks now since it takes alot of energy to hold medivacs in place untill IT's can hatch. On the other hand, if you catch the drop as it has already commenced you can make quick work off it seeing as the medivac will have a much harder time outhealing the damage from FG. Another thing to take into consideration is that you can now within 12 seconds do 140 damage to siegetanks and marauders (3 FGs with 30% increased damage) It's really going to be interesting seeing how this will turn out, if the strat can basically be negated with PDD's (atleast ravens are a juicy NP target) or changed into zergs answer to psistorm. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Stopping drops is already difficult, and with the lowered fungal duration, things will only get more tricky. | ||
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Falcon_NL
Netherlands236 Posts
But my friend did a fast helion tank push with siege and started sieging my spine crawlers. my infestors popped out but i had only zerglings. Should I delay the infestation pit when I see hes going pure mech? i really need roaches to deal with so much helions. thanks | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 27 2011 04:10 Falcon_NL wrote: Hey thanks for the build, But my friend did a fast helion tank push with siege and started sieging my spine crawlers. my infestors popped out but i had only zerglings. Should I delay the infestation pit when I see hes going pure mech? i really need roaches to deal with so much helions. thanks Have to be adaptive. Roaches are never a bad idea against big hellion plays. | ||
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madzumo
United States10 Posts
Granted blink is fast but I don't see Stimed Marines being any different. Infestors will now just be useful to harrass at mineral lines and only if they don't have turrents/cannon/& nearby units. | ||
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TNine
United States46 Posts
On February 27 2011 03:53 MrBitter wrote: I'm hesitant to say the patch will be good for this build. Stopping drops is already difficult, and with the lowered fungal duration, things will only get more tricky. However, fungal now does 48 damage to medivacs. So instead of fungaling for infested terrans, you can fungal four times and get the kill anyway. It still won't be as effecient, though. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On February 27 2011 07:54 madzumo wrote: This new patch really screws up the Infetors. That projectile addition is the WORST. What's the point if you can so easily dodge it? Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lSeH0U8H4M&feature=player_embedded Granted blink is fast but I don't see Stimed Marines being any different. Infestors will now just be useful to harrass at mineral lines and only if they don't have turrents/cannon/& nearby units. Nah you're wrong, Fungal is twice as good as it used to be, even with it being a projectile. Its DPS is 2x better and 2.6x better versus armored. I tried it out in the unit tester, its really really strong now, despite the reduced stun duration. That video was impractical, you don't want to use fungal against a few blink stalkers anyway, a VR/Colossus ball is NOT going to dodge fungal. | ||
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madzumo
United States10 Posts
On February 27 2011 08:51 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Nah you're wrong, Fungal is twice as good as it used to be, even with it being a projectile. Its DPS is 2x better and 2.6x better versus armored. I tried it out in the unit tester, its really really strong now, despite the reduced stun duration. That video was impractical, you don't want to use fungal against a few blink stalkers anyway, a VR/Colossus ball is NOT going to dodge fungal. I hope you're right. However, Fungal was quite practical FOR blink stalkers, stimmed marines trying to get away etc. A delay tactic if you will for your upgraded 3-3 Lings to clean up. How else are you suppose to surround now those darn Stalkers if you can't halt them? According to this post topic I digress. I suppose we'll have to play with this new unit. A once support caster delay unit now mutated to an offense projectile unit. As Mr. Bitter stated its' use will now be tricky. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 27 2011 08:51 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Nah you're wrong, Fungal is twice as good as it used to be, even with it being a projectile. Its DPS is 2x better and 2.6x better versus armored. I tried it out in the unit tester, its really really strong now, despite the reduced stun duration. That video was impractical, you don't want to use fungal against a few blink stalkers anyway, a VR/Colossus ball is NOT going to dodge fungal. I really feel like you're the one who's wrong here. Just because you can fungal some stalkers do death in a unit tester doesn't make it anywhere near practical. If you walk your infestors anywhere near the toss ball, they're going to die. Period. The extra DPS is meaningless because the overall damage done is virtually unchanged. Ask yourself this: How good is fungal growth vs a Toss ball now? It has minimal application, and none of it revolves around the damage mechanic of fungal. What makes you think that doing the same amount of damage in less time is going to change anything? The rest of your army is still going to melt just as fast, the projectile mechanic of the spell makes hitting anything a chore, and the units you do manage to fungal are going to giggle because the damage barely even tickles... The single good thing coming out of this change is the fact that fungal can now out damage Medivac heals. That has no bearing on ZvP, though, which, for some reason, is what this discussion has devolved into. | ||
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
It makes fungal no longer good for shutting down drops and air play, not to mention hellions. If it's going to be that goddamn slow then it's a huge nerf to fungal. The extra damage vs. armored is pretty irrelevant since the only units against which the damage part of fungal is normally a big deal are lings, banelings, workers, marines, mutas, and hellions -- all of which are light. | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On February 27 2011 15:24 madzumo wrote: I hope you're right. However, Fungal was quite practical FOR blink stalkers, stimmed marines trying to get away etc. A delay tactic if you will for your upgraded 3-3 Lings to clean up. How else are you suppose to surround now those darn Stalkers if you can't halt them? According to this post topic I digress. I suppose we'll have to play with this new unit. A once support caster delay unit now mutated to an offense projectile unit. As Mr. Bitter stated its' use will now be tricky. yes and now its not more for hitting units that are trying to get away but as a dmg dealer spell, against marines its amazingly good, I think I'll need to prespread my marines a lot more now, and I can see muta infestor be a killer in tvz, not even talking about ultra infestor  | ||
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