[G/D] Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT - Page 14

On February 19 2011 16:50 Frozenserpent wrote:
I was interested in this build after seeing the coaching lesson with Idra on ZvT. It seems the big question is really the timings of the build. That is definitely something that can needs finetuning. So I sat down and worked it out a preliminary possibility on a piece of paper. This is what I came up with.

I will count from the amount of time after you reintroduce drones into your extractor. I assume the opening will be similar to a FE, pool, extractor, mine 100 gas, pull drones out, research speedling upgrade, and then at some later point reintroduce drones.

0 sec. 0 gas. Put 3 drones into 1st extractor. Build 2nd extractor.

30 sec. 60 gas. 2nd extractor completes. Fill it with 3 drones.
Start 1st evolution chamber.

40 sec. 100->0 gas. Build lair as soon as you hit 100 gas.
Start 3rd extractor.

65 sec. 100->0 gas. 1st evolution chamber completes. Start +1 melee attack.
Start 2nd evolution chamber.
Start 4th extractor.

70 sec. 20 gas. 3rd extractor completes. Fill it with 3 drones.

95 sec. 170 gas. 4th extractor completes. Fill it with 3 drones.

100 sec. 210->60 gas. 2nd evolution chamber finishes. Start +1 ground carapace.

120 sec. 220->120 gas . Lair completes. Start infestation pit.

170 sec. 520->370 gas. Infestation pit completes. Start pathogen upgrade.

200 sec. ~610 gas. Start 4 infestors when you have 600 gas.

This is all assuming a gas mining rate of 2 gas/sec.
According to this thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055,
the gas collection rate is actually marginally less. Also, since you won't be able to time things perfectly, you'll probably be delayed for several seconds. That gives you a buffer for not starting the infestors too early. You start them at 200 sec in or later. Pathogen finishes at 250 sec. Infestors will pop shortly afterwards.

I went with a build that got +1 melee attack before +1 carapace instead of timing both or getting carapace first. I hope you guys might test it out yourself and come up with different possibilities.

I hope the timings aren't too complicated. I had it line up so there are cues. This way you don't have to memorize timings or memorize foods. So you can start mining gas early or late. It doesn't really matter, so long as you have the mineral gathering to support it.

The big points are:
1. start 2nd extractor once you start mining the 1st one.
2. When 2nd extractor completes, start 1st evolution chamber.
3. Start lair as soon as you have 100 gas. Start 3rd extractor at the same time.
4. When 1st evolution chamber completes, start +1 attack, start 2nd evolution chamber, Start 4th extractor. All of these need to be done at this time.
5. When 2nd evo chamber completes, start +1 defense.
6. When lair completes, start infestation pit.
7. When pit finishes, start pathogen gland.
8. When you have 600 gas, make 4 infestors at once.

After an extractor is completed, put 3 drones on it immediately.

You'll end up with 4 infestors with 75 energy each about 4 minutes after you start mining gas again.

I looked a bit ahead and you have enough gas to start +2 melee attack and +2 carapace as soon as they are completed. You also can spend 100 gas after your +2 melee attack for something like overlord speed, and you will barely have 225 gas in time for +2 carapace.

It's not super easy to remember, but I think with some practice it should be fairly simple to get these timings down. Best of all, it leaves you the option of deciding when to start mining from the 1st gas again. If you get thrown off early on, having to defend marine pressure or a bunker rush or something, and you get delayed in mining gas, it's no problem. As for getting pressured while you're building evo chambers, starting extractors, mining gas.... just need to remember to do it.

I hope with one set of timings we can test out how robust it is against early/mid game pressure. My impression is that it's possible to get those infestors out in time for a marine tank push, so long as you don't forget anything.

On February 19 2011 23:45 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:

Actually I didn't lose many drones against him, the high number stems from me tending to overdrone if I'm nervous (bout 90 working drones at the end of the game, and a lot of oversaturated bases through the game) and 5 hatches, a full techtree and some spines everywhere

After rewatching the replay I think he just didn't know what he was playing against, since he was using a very strange unit mix (Thor/Marine/Marauder/Medivac/BlueFlame Hellions with only a few tanks) and upgrading very slowly, even with income from 4 bases at his disposal.

Here's the replay: http://www.file-upload.net/download-3227070/TvZ-Sjow-Xel-Naga-Caverns--2-.SC2Replay.html

On February 21 2011 08:36 euroboy wrote:
Been skimming through this thread and watched all of bitters replays and the SjoW one. But I still have to see a game where terran matches your upgrades? Every replay I saw terran didn't even upgrade once except SjoW who got +1 atk for infantry and mech very late.

How does this fare against, say, fully upgraded mech?

On February 21 2011 08:49 ZasZ. wrote:


Well for one, even if your T opponent is on top of his upgrades, they should still be considerably behind yours, that's just the nature of trying to do double Armory upgrades. Even so, by the time he has fully upgraded Mech, we're talking about a late-game scenario where you should have plenty of bases to support Ultra/Ling/Infestor, which annihilates Mech play, unless you fight near a bunch of Planetaries or something.

On February 21 2011 09:08 Syck wrote:
Hey im mouzSyck, one of the 2 new mousesports players,
since my muta controll is pretty bad ive been struggling with my zvt alot until i found this build:D,
ive started to use it (with sucess) and i would like to add some replays(the one vs Sjow included which was already mentioned),
im new to this zvt style myself(started 3 days ago)so i still have to work on it myself but i hope it helps u alot,and je sry for my bad english ;p

vs Sjow
vs 3,6k Master T
vs 3,4k Master T
vs 3,5k Master T

ps. add more banes unlike me pls

On February 15 2011 06:05 PrinceXizor wrote:
MrBitter i've been doing a similar concept since beta, and drops and banshees become second nature to beat after enough practice. (for instance, i'm closing in on 10 months of practice with the build). the big issue is on small maps, being pushed by heavy tank numbers. HOWEVER on the GSL maps, and shakuras and stuff, you can also beat that push. Infestor play is just safe from everything in general


The variation i have is 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, with lair as soon as pool fininshes, pretty much i get infestors about 2-3 minutes game time faster, and get maybe 1-3 drones less by the same point in time(which means you catch up quickly once infestors come out) the strategy in the mid game is roughly the same. except you didn't emphasize the importance of overlord and creep spread during the mid game. you can actually creep up to the opponents base by the time they have enough tanks to leave their base without dying. meaning you have 100% map control.

On February 22 2011 06:35 atenthirtyone wrote:
Relying on Infestors (along with evolution chamber upgrades) is definitely a good and fun alternative to Mutalisks when hitting Lair Tech. I done this a few things (I'm in badland Diamond), but I have one big concern.

What have you guys been doing to combat the growing number of Medivacs? I felt that as the number of Medivacs grow, they simply negate Fungal Growth's damage on marines. Now, I know that Fungal Growth also serves as a "snare" and time buyer, but I keep feeling that I need to get other techs besides Fungal Growth to combat Medivacs. In particular, I feel that I need to either get banelings to negate Medivacs' heal and abuse the Fungal Growth snare OR get Mutalisks to keep the Medivac count manageable. From a quick search on Liquidpedia, Medivacs' Heal more than easily out heals the DPS of Fungal Growth. Thoughts?