|
On February 19 2011 10:06 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:
This build is fuckin awesome. I just beat Kas and Sjow with it, two players that have always wiped the floor with me if I was trying to play Muta/Ling/Bling against them. They may have had a bad day, they may not be familiar with the style yet, but still - they were even both far ahead in eco and army size, but those heavily upgraded Lings/Ultras just rape through anything that isnt heavily upgraded as well.
I really think most people overestimate the efficiency of drop-play against it. At least in the midgame your ling-upgrades are so far ahead that you are able to fight of drops with ridiculously low amounts of units.
The Lair and Evo Chamber timings definetly have to be refined a bit, but beside from builds and spawning positions that forces muta/ling/bling to deviate into other units as well I could see the build becoming a new kind of standard for ZvT.
Wow, what the hell, I just looked at the score screen for the game vs Sjow. He had a higher income (even with you building 140 drones, I guess drops were a bit of a problem after all?  ) and much higher army value basically all game. Would you mind sharing that replay? :o
|
I was interested in this build after seeing the coaching lesson with Idra on ZvT. It seems the big question is really the timings of the build. That is definitely something that can needs finetuning. So I sat down and worked it out a preliminary possibility on a piece of paper. This is what I came up with.
I will count from the amount of time after you reintroduce drones into your extractor. I assume the opening will be similar to a FE, pool, extractor, mine 100 gas, pull drones out, research speedling upgrade, and then at some later point reintroduce drones.
0 sec. 0 gas. Put 3 drones into 1st extractor. Build 2nd extractor.
30 sec. 60 gas. 2nd extractor completes. Fill it with 3 drones.
Start 1st evolution chamber.
40 sec. 100->0 gas. Build lair as soon as you hit 100 gas.
Start 3rd extractor.
65 sec. 100->0 gas. 1st evolution chamber completes. Start +1 melee attack.
Start 2nd evolution chamber.
Start 4th extractor.
70 sec. 20 gas. 3rd extractor completes. Fill it with 3 drones.
95 sec. 170 gas. 4th extractor completes. Fill it with 3 drones.
100 sec. 210->60 gas. 2nd evolution chamber finishes. Start +1 ground carapace.
120 sec. 220->120 gas . Lair completes. Start infestation pit.
170 sec. 520->370 gas. Infestation pit completes. Start pathogen upgrade.
200 sec. ~610 gas. Start 4 infestors when you have 600 gas.
This is all assuming a gas mining rate of 2 gas/sec.
According to this thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055,
the gas collection rate is actually marginally less. Also, since you won't be able to time things perfectly, you'll probably be delayed for several seconds. That gives you a buffer for not starting the infestors too early. You start them at 200 sec in or later. Pathogen finishes at 250 sec. Infestors will pop shortly afterwards.
I went with a build that got +1 melee attack before +1 carapace instead of timing both or getting carapace first. I hope you guys might test it out yourself and come up with different possibilities.
I hope the timings aren't too complicated. I had it line up so there are cues. This way you don't have to memorize timings or memorize foods. So you can start mining gas early or late. It doesn't really matter, so long as you have the mineral gathering to support it.
The big points are:
1. start 2nd extractor once you start mining the 1st one.
2. When 2nd extractor completes, start 1st evolution chamber.
3. Start lair as soon as you have 100 gas. Start 3rd extractor at the same time.
4. When 1st evolution chamber completes, start +1 attack, start 2nd evolution chamber, Start 4th extractor. All of these need to be done at this time.
5. When 2nd evo chamber completes, start +1 defense.
6. When lair completes, start infestation pit.
7. When pit finishes, start pathogen gland.
8. When you have 600 gas, make 4 infestors at once.
After an extractor is completed, put 3 drones on it immediately.
You'll end up with 4 infestors with 75 energy each about 4 minutes after you start mining gas again.
I looked a bit ahead and you have enough gas to start +2 melee attack and +2 carapace as soon as they are completed. You also can spend 100 gas after your +2 melee attack for something like overlord speed, and you will barely have 225 gas in time for +2 carapace.
It's not super easy to remember, but I think with some practice it should be fairly simple to get these timings down. Best of all, it leaves you the option of deciding when to start mining from the 1st gas again. If you get thrown off early on, having to defend marine pressure or a bunker rush or something, and you get delayed in mining gas, it's no problem. As for getting pressured while you're building evo chambers, starting extractors, mining gas.... just need to remember to do it.
I hope with one set of timings we can test out how robust it is against early/mid game pressure. My impression is that it's possible to get those infestors out in time for a marine tank push, so long as you don't forget anything.
|
I actually played once vs Marine/tank push and i was able to get like 3festors with glands and about 2-3were spawning so i think its doable to get em in time to punish T push 
|
Thanks so much for this. I'm gonna try it out because the muta/ling/bling is micro heavy and a single mistake means that the terran will dominate ur army. Its good to see the metagame shifting all the time. Its also good that you put the transition into ultras, another really effective unit.
I have to try this out.
|
@Frozenserpent: I think that getting +1 Carapace before Melee Attack is better for Zerglings to deal with Marines initially.
|
Yeah I've been doing this right alongside you baby ever since that day with lz. Although I've been transitioning into muta once I get my third rather than getting a fast hive, so it ends up slightly different. Call me an addict. Also my late game will be looking considerably different since I'll be focusing on broodlords (3/3 broodlings bebe) rather than ultras.
Don't forget about burrowed infestor harass too ;0
<3<3<3 xoxo
|
On February 19 2011 19:12 WingEn wrote:
@Frozenserpent: I think that getting +1 Carapace before Melee Attack is better for Zerglings to deal with Marines initially.
Yeah when I have free time I'll see if I can come up with timings for a possible carapace first upgrade. I just like the +1 attack one because the timings work out very well. Every time you add a gas or build an evolution chamber, there is a cue that you sync it up with.
|
Happy Birthday Mr B....Love your casts.
|
On February 19 2011 02:04 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 02:02 Trainrunnef wrote:
Has anyone tried using NP on a marine ball to force tank friendly fire?
just throwing the idea out there. might not be worth it in terms of energy cost. would be cheaper/less risk to the infestor to burrow in and toss IT
i dont believe that units auto-fire on NP'd units.
toss infested terrans into the marine ball is a very good idea though!
|
NP-ed units arent shot by previous allies you are right. Good combo is fungal rines than toss IT a tanks one shot em then
|
On February 19 2011 10:29 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:06 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:
This build is fuckin awesome. I just beat Kas and Sjow with it, two players that have always wiped the floor with me if I was trying to play Muta/Ling/Bling against them. They may have had a bad day, they may not be familiar with the style yet, but still - they were even both far ahead in eco and army size, but those heavily upgraded Lings/Ultras just rape through anything that isnt heavily upgraded as well.
I really think most people overestimate the efficiency of drop-play against it. At least in the midgame your ling-upgrades are so far ahead that you are able to fight of drops with ridiculously low amounts of units.
The Lair and Evo Chamber timings definetly have to be refined a bit, but beside from builds and spawning positions that forces muta/ling/bling to deviate into other units as well I could see the build becoming a new kind of standard for ZvT. Wow, what the hell, I just looked at the score screen for the game vs Sjow. He had a higher income (even with you building 140 drones, I guess drops were a bit of a problem after all? ) and much higher army value basically all game. Would you mind sharing that replay? :o
Actually I didn't lose many drones against him, the high number stems from me tending to overdrone if I'm nervous (bout 90 working drones at the end of the game, and a lot of oversaturated bases through the game) and 5 hatches, a full techtree and some spines everywhere 
After rewatching the replay I think he just didn't know what he was playing against, since he was using a very strange unit mix (Thor/Marine/Marauder/Medivac/BlueFlame Hellions with only a few tanks) and upgrading very slowly, even with income from 4 bases at his disposal.
Here's the replay: http://www.file-upload.net/download-3227070/TvZ-Sjow-Xel-Naga-Caverns--2-.SC2Replay.html
|
|
|
Ive acctually started doing this but instead of entirely skipping the mutas first i get my spire but i only make about 11-12 mutas just for harras and usaully the terran responds like he usaully would more rines thors expecting a large amount of mutas then after your 7-8th muta throw down your pit research energy ASAP get about 6-8 infestors and resume muta production as usaul this so u can still keep map control but now u have infestors to completely lock down a terran push this has been working wonders for me lost about 1 out my 12 games against t and i only lost because i got far out played by a 3500 master
|
I'm only platinum but I love this build. Most terrans I face almost blindly expect muta ling so they start building turrets without even scouting me. Ling/bane is enough to stop very early pushes, ling/bane/infestor stops midgame pushes, and crackling/bane/ultra just roflstomps any lategame marine/tank composition. I think the main weakness of this build is heavy banshee play. If the terran treats them like DTs and splits them up, infestors will have a very hard time dealing with them.
|
I love this style, but i have trouble against simultaneous drops as my multitasking cant keep up with queued drops (op :p). I have had huge trouble in zvt lately but now everything is going smoother as i get a brood lord infestor army relatively quick. With muta ling I would often have a lot of stupid losses where I was way ahead due to bad engagements.
I do think some of the success I have had with this is due to lack of experience on the terran side though.
Props for doing your show mr bitter, the best zerg resource by far
|
One question what you guys do if he keeps denying your third with big balls of rauders+some rines? I found it rly hard to kill and even harder to stop from killing your new hatch
|
On February 20 2011 23:12 Yagulare wrote:One question what you guys do if he keeps denying your third with big balls of rauders+some rines? I found it rly hard to kill and even harder to stop from killing your new hatch
If he keeps denying your third you must be doing something wrong. Upgraded ling + infestor fungal should be able to handle MM balls fairly easily.
|
|
|
I got it again, could anyone give me some advice please?
The T got like one viking to harass overlords. So I pull my overlords in. Then I don't have coverage around my base and don't see the dropships coming. With the overlords out it's conceivable to fungal the medivac over open space, or at least you get your lings there in time. I'm not used to not having air superiority I guess.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
|
@Euclide
I can handle bioballs quite easily with fungal as long as they are mainly rines -true, but when he runs his 125hp stimm upgraded rauders and hides rines (like 2-1 rauder/rine ratio) behind its rly hard to fungal without dying and stimmed rines makes mess out of lings that are blocked by rauders. When he positions his rines in a way that they cover rauders but to fungal em you got to get into rauders range... meh i cant think how to deal with that. And in mean time he sets expo up so he can constantly toss new bioballs at me. Still i win like 80%of my ZvT (maybe even more) cause T just sit and make big army, afraid to move cause they are used to muta harassment that never comes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
