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First of all, thank you very much for this awesome post ^^
I'll try this out right, and try to mix it with my actual playstyle te get something fancy out lol.
For that trouble you mentionned with the banshees, i think you could add some queen production to your strat, because it will not only deal with air wonderously, but you will also be able to use mass transfuse on your late game ultras, kind of following the idea you can find in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190226
Big fan of yours by the way, i watch your stream every time it's possible 
Fantastic job for the comunity dude, keep it up
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I would try constant queen production to defend that early push. It would mean fewer speedlings, but queens are neither light nor armored, and have 1 armor before upgrades. I'm not sure if the timing and resource allocation would work out favorably at that point in the game, but I think queens are just such a strong defensive unit. Something to experiment with, at least.
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Thanks for posting this bitterz, ive seen this play in your session with lz and wanted to try it ever since, the reps and this guide are going to hopefully help a bunch
BIG <3
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I really love everything you do for the community Mr Bitter. I have a secret hatred for you though because I met you on bnet once a LONG time ago (flabulous) and you 1 base muta'd me and you were being a little bit of a prick haha. Not long after I saw your coaching videos and you talked about how you didn't know much about zvz and I was thinking to myself (yeah that little punk..). Anyways all is forgiven
Thanks a lot!
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On February 18 2011 05:52 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 05:42 Rec73 wrote:
Hey Mr. Bitter, I watched your stream last night with idra and was super excited when he decided to try your build out with lzgamer. Though clearly his build during the game were very significant in him taking a much earlier lair and taking his ups a little fast as a result, meaning less drones, this problem seems to still come up in your build. I love the double early ups and would agree with you about NP. However it really seems like early- mid pushes right when you throw down your pit hurts so much. Sometimes you have the 1/1 and sometimes you don't. The difference is quite huge IMO between 1/1 and 0/0 lings against early game bio pressure.
Do you have a different style of the build that works upgrade timings earlier rather than beelining towards infestors so hard? The end game comp is amazing, the early mid pre infestors feels a little flimsy. Also it is amazingly important that your infestors stick outside your opponent's base. Buying as much time as possible for essentially free rather than letting your opponent just siege on your third is huge in this build. You're right. That is a vulnerable time in the game. I don't have a great answer for you right now. I want to say that good scouting will allowing you to key in on what he's doing, and can prompt a reactive baneling nest. The truth is I just don't know. I know I'm an ok player, but I'm not at a level where I can make concrete statements about how the build plays out vs very precise timings... Not yet, at least. 
Doesn't the same thing happen in BW TvZ where Zerg has to buy time for his bases/tech to kick in by abusing the hell out of map position with his lings?
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On February 18 2011 07:32 justindab0mb wrote:I really love everything you do for the community Mr Bitter. I have a secret hatred for you though because I met you on bnet once a LONG time ago (flabulous) and you 1 base muta'd me and you were being a little bit of a prick haha. Not long after I saw your coaching videos and you talked about how you didn't know much about zvz and I was thinking to myself (yeah that little punk..). Anyways all is forgiven Thanks a lot!
Hahahah. That's awesome.
I apologize for that <3<3
I promise that your hatred is surpassed only by the hatred that Bonergeist holds for me.
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I have found this to work extraordinarily well, even with my limited abilites and with completely improvising the build @ diamond level. Marine tank pushes do get pretty much demolished by a decent number of lings, add in infestors and I usually come out as a completely superior victor in mid game fights vs T.
And ultras seem to come out much much sooner than most T's expect a zerg to get a T3, and they pretty much demolish stuff with the upgrades you have prepared for them.
Kudos for exploring and adding another option to the zerg arsenal vs T.
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United States1237 Posts
Hopefully you'll continue to refine this build, maybe even get more feedback from Idra. So far he suggested earlier gas ~17ish, and the jury is out on when to get that baneling nest. I'm also curious about the 3rd queen, lair upgrade and 3rd hatchery timings in a normal progression. Keep up the great work (and don't get supply blocked at 28).
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Mrbitter, what do you think about using 1-2 spores per base to help against drops (by killing the medivac thus making the units stranded and waiting to die to your units)? Sure, it won't help kill the marines but your lings are really mobile, so you can run back and kill off the drop much faster than you would be able to with infestors...
Is it a garbage idea or does it hold some value?
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infesters to FG the medivac/marines so they cant run/kite, and queens to kill the medivac and lings to kill the marines is usualy how drops are delt with in this build. Spores arnt mobile enough to be able to actualy kill the medivac (as the medivac only needs to come into the very edge of the base somewhere, and you cant have spores everywhere).
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Mr. Bitter,
Have you experimented at all with a brood transition? idrA had brought it up on your cast and was just curious if you tried it. Seems like they'd rip through stuff with they're upgrading broodlings. Just curious. BTW, i think i'll finally give up and try your build 
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I just stomped a gold levelish player as a mid to high level platinum using hellion, thor, banshee with a tint of marines. He went for infestor/ling. it wasnt even close. focus fire infestor with banshee and just stomp every thing else. I lost about 300worth of army value.(200/200) o; i reckon he played very passive.
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Have terrans responded to this by taking 3 early bases? How have you handled that? I'm imagining this would allow them to keep up with upgrades and go crazy with both mech and bio.
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On February 18 2011 11:17 Spicy Pepper wrote:
Have terrans responded to this by taking 3 early bases? How have you handled that? I'm imagining this would allow them to keep up with upgrades and go crazy with both mech and bio.
On most maps its very difficult for T to take a quick third with such a significant speedling presence.
Of course, if Z doesn't scout it 'til the PF is done, that changes things.
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I have been using infestor heavy play since the LZ video. I was using a lot of banelings with it though. I have played a few games with mass upgrade lings into broodlords and have been liking that more.
I am sure a big reason it is working so well is that it is catching people off guard. But even so I think it is great for the metagame if this build catches on. Terran will be forced adapt their builds to make standard ling bling muta more effective as well since they can't blind counter with turrets/thor and be in good shape against this.
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On February 18 2011 10:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Mrbitter, what do you think about using 1-2 spores per base to help against drops (by killing the medivac thus making the units stranded and waiting to die to your units)? Sure, it won't help kill the marines but your lings are really mobile, so you can run back and kill off the drop much faster than you would be able to with infestors...
Is it a garbage idea or does it hold some value?
Keeping an infestor in your main/ 3rd base should be pretty easy to defend drops. Queen/fungal/ infested terrans focusing on medivac. Lings are fast enough that a fungal can keep any drop under control until some lings can clean up.
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On February 18 2011 10:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Mrbitter, what do you think about using 1-2 spores per base to help against drops (by killing the medivac thus making the units stranded and waiting to die to your units)? Sure, it won't help kill the marines but your lings are really mobile, so you can run back and kill off the drop much faster than you would be able to with infestors...
Is it a garbage idea or does it hold some value?
I think this is very good idea. Many players (myself included) put spine or two in base to defend drops but MMM drop kills those super fast. But if you put spore in good position, it will kill medivac when he unloads or even kill full medivac when he is not paying attention. Also fungal in spore's range can kill drop super easy.
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United States1237 Posts
I have a feeling that at top level play, the standard procedure is to scan, drop out of range of any static D, stim, and destroy. Spores in the mineral line aren't going to deter this much, if at all. One might try forward spore crawlers to cut off air-attack lanes and intercept dropships before they reach good drop positions, especially with good creep spread, since scans are less likely further out from the mineral line. I think aggressive creep spread and overlord placement, along with infestor/queen/ling/bane cleanup is still a better way to defend expos. A couple infestors at home can stall long enough for an army to come back. 1 fungal and 2 queens can kill a medivac pretty quickly. Another possibility is defensive mutalisks, once the game reaches later stages. (Skipping early mutas doesn't necessitate cutting them out of your game entirely, and you'll have the option to make mutas if you're going for broods) A control group of 6-8 mutas and 12-16 lings can cover most of the map and smash single drops with an attack move.
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I believe this question has not be brought up yet, but do you think burrow is an important part of this build or more of a situational upgrade?
If so, do you have a timing at wich you get burrow, do you prioritize it over other upgrades?
(to use with burrowed banes and harass with the infestors.)
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EPT
