EPTAre you taking this for granted, or do you think that you don't need fungal that fast and the 150 gas could be better spent elsewhere?
[G/D] Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT - Page 10
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philipov
United States81 Posts
Are you taking this for granted, or do you think that you don't need fungal that fast and the 150 gas could be better spent elsewhere? | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
- +1/+1 should be started immediately - And as soon as lair finishes, your infestation pit needs to go down, with the energy upgrade following right behind it  | ||
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philipov
United States81 Posts
Ah, my bad. Don't know how I missed that  Thanks. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
That was also the bane of lategame ultra/ling for me as well, defending drops when you're on like 5 bases and so spread out. | ||
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 18 2011 03:47 Crushgroove wrote: Well articulated and reasoned OP. Wondering if there've been any succinct conclusions as to modifications of the build originally outlined since it was posted? Honestly, nothing has really changed so far... We went through it with IdrA last night on stream, and he said he liked it. If he continues to fiddle with the style, I'm sure he'll come up with something more stream lined. If not, then any changes you want to make to it are subject to your own interpretation. | ||
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RoKetha
United States211 Posts
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Gak2
Canada418 Posts
Mutas are so easy to stop with how strong marines, turrets, and thors are... they can hardly contain and harassing with them does little damage compared to their cost. | ||
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Harbinger631
United States376 Posts
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philipov
United States81 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:20 Harbinger631 wrote: Might at well throw up 4 or so spines, Zerg always seems to have extra mineral. My own preference would be to dump extra minerals into constant queen production and mix this mid-game together with the mass-queen late-game philosophy. Queens play amazingly well with either ultras or broodlords, and integrate better than pure zergling into a strong/low-mobility army strategy. EDIT: Additionally, queens are great at forcing tank lines, which has been stated as a weakness of this build. | ||
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pedalpusher
United Kingdom56 Posts
Subsequent to securing a 3rd as zerg and having infestors out on the field, it seems like placing spore crawlers in vunerable areas as standard could be a cost effective strategy, effectively compensating for the lack of infestor mobility. The risk to terran of moving inside the range of a spore crawler and getting FG'ed ought to be sufficient to shutdown harass in the places where they are deployed and by the time you have your third their cost would only be minor. Terran always get missle turrets to fend off mutas and normally to great effect, so why not use spores for fend off banshee/drops!? | ||
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
That said, it is still a good idea to put a spore behind your mineral line to discourage a drop in compact space (harder for you to defend), but do not do this early. Any early/mid game drops can be dealt with just queen/infestor/lings easily (converge other queens and infestors to the location if it's a bigger drop). Only add static defense late game when you want to use all your units for offense. | ||
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HighQuality
United States56 Posts
I've played against this build a couple of times with a friend and I've noticed that even though the zerg sacrifices map control, it's not a complete sacrifice, as upgraded speedlings are still extremely effective at siphoning off parts of the map from the Terran. The zerg's infestor control also has to be quite good, as they're vulnerable to a lot of different things; EMPing multiple infestors, which I usually try, is an extremely satisfying task. Once you're EMPed 3 infestors at once, I immediately feel like I've won the game. | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
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philipov
United States81 Posts
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Rec73
7 Posts
Do you have a different style of the build that works upgrade timings earlier rather than beelining towards infestors so hard? The end game comp is amazing, the early mid pre infestors feels a little flimsy. Also it is amazingly important that your infestors stick outside your opponent's base. Buying as much time as possible for essentially free rather than letting your opponent just siege on your third is huge in this build. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:42 Rec73 wrote: Hey Mr. Bitter, I watched your stream last night with idra and was super excited when he decided to try your build out with lzgamer. Though clearly his build during the game were very significant in him taking a much earlier lair and taking his ups a little fast as a result, meaning less drones, this problem seems to still come up in your build. I love the double early ups and would agree with you about NP. However it really seems like early- mid pushes right when you throw down your pit hurts so much. Sometimes you have the 1/1 and sometimes you don't. The difference is quite huge IMO between 1/1 and 0/0 lings against early game bio pressure. Do you have a different style of the build that works upgrade timings earlier rather than beelining towards infestors so hard? The end game comp is amazing, the early mid pre infestors feels a little flimsy. Also it is amazingly important that your infestors stick outside your opponent's base. Buying as much time as possible for essentially free rather than letting your opponent just siege on your third is huge in this build. This exact style of push/harass (when your pit goes down and/or when you have 1-3 infestors with only ~75 energy each) is why I eventually abandoned my infestor play when I used to do it. I've been watching this thread closely, and still hope to try this style of play again sometime, but it is what drove me away in the first place. I just feel like there have been so many ZvTs I've won due to that first batch of mutalisks coming out at a clutch timing to stop something. It does make me curious about how something like 5 mutas directly into infestors (start the pit as spire builds maybe) would work. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
I also think in most situations, you don't need to rush to infestors quite so fast, you can focus on getting your economy up, and get a baneling nest earlier. Maybe cut out the early double upgrades and instead get just 1 evo chamber and a baneling nest. Than you can add the other evo chamber after you get infestors out once your econ is going strong. Of course, how the build plays out is entirely dependent on what the Terran is doing in the particular game you are playing. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:42 Rec73 wrote: Hey Mr. Bitter, I watched your stream last night with idra and was super excited when he decided to try your build out with lzgamer. Though clearly his build during the game were very significant in him taking a much earlier lair and taking his ups a little fast as a result, meaning less drones, this problem seems to still come up in your build. I love the double early ups and would agree with you about NP. However it really seems like early- mid pushes right when you throw down your pit hurts so much. Sometimes you have the 1/1 and sometimes you don't. The difference is quite huge IMO between 1/1 and 0/0 lings against early game bio pressure. Do you have a different style of the build that works upgrade timings earlier rather than beelining towards infestors so hard? The end game comp is amazing, the early mid pre infestors feels a little flimsy. Also it is amazingly important that your infestors stick outside your opponent's base. Buying as much time as possible for essentially free rather than letting your opponent just siege on your third is huge in this build. You're right. That is a vulnerable time in the game. I don't have a great answer for you right now. I want to say that good scouting will allowing you to key in on what he's doing, and can prompt a reactive baneling nest. The truth is I just don't know. I know I'm an ok player, but I'm not at a level where I can make concrete statements about how the build plays out vs very precise timings... Not yet, at least. | ||
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