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You are welcome to tinker with different transitions from this opening and if you find something stable, I will put it up in the opening post crediting you. I have only two concerns you might want to think about:
1) Making the 3rd rax a proxy and before the expansion CC will result in only 1 or 2 extra marines due to the build time. So you would have to fit it in rather early to make a difference.
2) Containing with MMM against tanks seems very hard for me in theory, because he can has the high ground of his own base and can slowly creep forward with his tanks and there is little you can do. I haven't tried it, but for me it seems that a contain in TvT needs tanks.
About the blueflame hellions:
I have done this push a few times when my opponent opened with a blue flame hellion drop (see respones section). Usually I can push his ramp, because the timing hits way before blue flame and 4-5 marines plus 1-2 hellions won't stop your push even with a bunker only if he has SCVs already in place.
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ive been using this build for a few games now and i really like it.
it gives me the chance to straight up win the game if they are going banshees or even 1/1/1, and even if i cant break their defence it gives me map control and contain them a bit while i expand
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aside from the 1 rax no gas = all in which someone mentioned earlier it seems like a solid post. I would like to emphasize to people who don't know how an up ramp push works. You need to go in marauder first to soak up the hits.
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I corrected the scouting info. For the 1 rax expand you should be able to deny the CC float to the natural by moving out earlier and camping at his natural until you hit the stim timing.
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This build reminds me of the 2rax FE 2marauder 1marine concussive shell opener in TvP. I have yet to try it and will begin implementing it into my TvT when I get home ... My question, is it as consistent as that opening? I can see how it would destroy a greedy/fast-teching Terran. But what about a Terran who goes fast siege tank, into banshee? What's your personal experience?
I love the potential follow-up without committing to 3+ Rax... this really is a flexible build! Do you have any new replays?
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Thrombozyt , thanks for posting this. I've finally started to win some TvTs with it. Any more reps, advice, or updates?
Once I get the build down a little more solidly I can post some reps of my own (gold-plat opponents).
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I've been using this exclusively this weekend. I'm a gold-level terran.
I've found that the amount of damage I do on the initial push almost determines the game. If I see the double bunker or bunker + sieged tank I pull back, but in all other cases nobody makes it back home. If I don't really hurt the opponent the counter is usually devastating.
The ptr proposed patch has a longer stim research time, so this build would be nerfed if that goes through.
What do you think of playing more defensively with stim? We have marauders to counter BF, marines to counter banshees, and a good size infantry to engage an early tank push. If we bunker our natural we can probably hold the FE. Or would another FE build be better if we want to turtle?
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Hey.. thank you for coming back to the thread. I though it was burried. Nice to see that you could make use of the opening. I have added two more replays and will try to add a few more tonight after work (have the replays, just need time to sort through them).
I have also modified the BO slightly, exchanging 1 marauder for 1 marine so that the build flows more smoothly without cutting SCVs.
As to the PTR change:
Unfortunatelly it messes up the timing badly, as you will arrive after the banshee is available against the harass build denying you a chance to bash him. Also hellion drops will come just as you push so you need to step up the multitasking.
I will have to play it through with the added 30 seconds and maybe I'll find a way to make it work.
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On March 06 2011 13:28 friendo wrote:
I've been using this exclusively this weekend. I'm a gold-level terran.
I've found that the amount of damage I do on the initial push almost determines the game. If I see the double bunker or bunker + sieged tank I pull back, but in all other cases nobody makes it back home. If I don't really hurt the opponent the counter is usually devastating.
The ptr proposed patch has a longer stim research time, so this build would be nerfed if that goes through.
What do you think of playing more defensively with stim? We have marauders to counter BF, marines to counter banshees, and a good size infantry to engage an early tank push. If we bunker our natural we can probably hold the FE. Or would another FE build be better if we want to turtle?
Actually you can play defensively with this build, too. You just miss a window to potentially put pressure on your opponent. Many TvT builds include a scan for the 3rd energy chunk. With my build here you just use that scan to check for weakness and attack if opportune.
Against all standard openings, you can play without engaging at the ramp as the ramp can be blocked.
Vs banshee you throw up turrets and have stim marines.
Vs hellion drops you get concussive shells and have stimmed marine/marauder to deal with the hellions
Vs tank pushes of any sort you go siege tank ASAP and mass up marines. You attack force lingers around his ramp to see when he pushs and delays his tanks from marching up. You can stim in and pick off a tank or two and his push will slow down or even falter.
Vs mass bio you get bunkers at your natural and go for tanks defensively. From there you try to play out your expand advantage.
Only vs no gas FE from a terran you are forced into action as he expanded before you.
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EPT
