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Lately, I've been having much more trouble with P that goes zealot heavy, some stalkers, and later, HT.
My usual harass style marauder medivac doesn't work out that well against the sheer firepower of this Protoss army, even though I rush for upgrades.
I'm thinking of encorporating blue flame reactored hellions into this build, but they're pretty squishy to say the least. Plus, I'm not sure if it's my unit comps fault, or just my mentality. It's extremely hard to kite MASS zealots with charge with marauders, but marauders are the bread and butter unit of TvP...
Any suggestions?
-I'm an 1800 diamond, so i macro decently, and try to harass on top of that.
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if protoss doesnt have collosus, build more marines instead of marauders, use spare gas on a ghost, emp sentries, a move into natural, gg.
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Well, once he gets to zealot/high templars it's pretty much late-game with him having 6-12 warp-gates, being able to continuously warp in. This usually means you lost already.
How are your drops not working? His army shouldn't be in his base waiting for drops. Never rush upgrades, just get it while you can afford because it'll just slow down your tech (medivacs, blue-flame) and weaken your army.
Blue-flame reactored hellions should be your switch in late-game, not starting out. For example, once you're on 2 bases (while safely creating your 3rd), throw up an extra factory and pre-emptively build 1 reactor + 1 tech. You should have plenty of resources by now so don't worry.
Replay?
On February 08 2011 08:32 panda_inc wrote:
if protoss doesnt have collosus, build more marines instead of marauders, use spare gas on a ghost, emp sentries, a move into natural, gg.
The thing is that he has a huge amount of gateway units because he hasn't teched that far yet. I doubt the protoss is teching to high templars on 1 base, so he's probably doing it slowly on 2 bases, which still allows a huge gateway army. If you add in guardian shield, the zealots become naturally unstoppable because there's no slow.
Against a decent protoss who spreads his units, you won't be able to EMP all the sentries with 1 ghost.
Bad advice.
Below: You won't be able to EMP all the units, and high templars can feed-back, too. Also, if you want to try to match your ghost count with his high templars, you'll end up with more marines and a smaller than usually army. More marines = vulnerable to 1 easy storm.
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Ghosts would destroy that composition completely.
Also, as usual, stutter step kiting mitigates a lot of zealot DPS even with charge.
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Hey MrInocence!
Blue flame hellions actually work quite well vs a zealot heavy composition--Once you reach critical mass (10+, not sure on the exact number though), you can laff at those zeals. Also, for MASS zeals, you can deal with them quite easily with conc. marauders if you don't get surrounded. Poke in with marauders and kite a few of his zeals and kill them off, never engage full out with a bio army vs robogate or robogatetemplar compositions; you'll lose. Harassing is good, it keeps toss army from roflstomping you, but don't aim for bio late game. You can get some bio, but at 3-4+ bases, siege tanks+hellions+marauders works a lot better than rines rauders and medvacs.
2.9k diamond toss if points actually mean anything to you.
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@iChau
well he is 1800 diamond, my advice would work amazingly well.
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vs tht composition your gonna need to get BF hellions. they're rather amazing :-) very cost effective unit with high micro ability.
and panda, u told him to make more marines? which is pretty fail vs HT.
BF hellions dont group nearly as much as marines, and they do more damage vs HT/zlots.
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If he is going straight for HT before collosus there should be a window were you can push him with MMM (maybe a ghost) against his pure gateway army.
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I don't have an easy answer for you, I struggle with protoss too (2800 master)
Disregard the comment about making a lot of marines. Marines really suck vs high templar lol.
BF Hellions isn't bad. Actually it's really good because you get a lot out of the 100 minerals you spend. Not only that, but you can use the hellions to kill the templar if he isn't careful. (If they're in a ball you can one or two shot them with 4 or 5 hellions... he won't want to storm 5 hellions lol)
Additionally, his high templar have to get really close to your hellions to be able to storm them. However, Hellions are really fast, and templar are really slow. Don't get close enough with your ball so they can storm you. Try some mass hellion armies vs zealot templar.
Something else worthy of noting: THORS are probably the only unit that are not really countered by high templar or colossus. If you get a massive macro advantage(I'm talking about like 5 base vs 3 base), feel free to go only THOR hellion. Sometimes you can waste storms by walking in your thors first then after he storms bring in the hellions.
BTW, don't think of this as an opening. Don't open up with BF hellions. Personally, I like to open up 1 rax reaper FE -> bunker + siege tank/marine -> whatever I need to counter and it's been surprisingly effective. I can send you some replays if you would like. The other opening I used to do is 1 rax reaper FE -> ghost + heavy marine + few marauder + stim and attack around or a little before 10 minutes. This is effective if he opened 1 gate robo FE and has heavy immortal or reliance on sentries. Don't waste your army though. If you're unable to create a good engagement, don't attack.
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On February 08 2011 08:32 iChau wrote:
Well, once he gets to zealot/high templars it's pretty much late-game with him having 6-12 warp-gates, being able to continuously warp in. This usually means you lost already.
Lol. Yeah, no. Please go watch PvT with professionals. Protoss lose all the time in the late game.
If he's exclusively zealot/high temp then why don't you go blueflame helion//ghost? Or Thors with upgraded plate armor to negate the 2 attacks of zealots? Or mass drops, that would work too. Unlike what iChau wrote, usually Toss can't warp continuously, they warp in chunks. This means there are times when they cannot warp anything in similar to a DT rush against Terran in that it's a guess that they won't have energy on their orbital. If you're wrong, you lose the drop/DT but it means there's a window where they will not be prepared.
When it gets to the lategame, you need to change your unit composition. You're lucky, Protoss doesn't have a "bread and butter" unit against Terran, but maybe this is a curse in the long run.
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I actually mean attacking the protoss while he is teching to HT / getting ground attack/armour upgrades. The biggest vulnerability of gateway strats is EMPed sentries and stim marines. Against these strats you want to be super defensive with lots of bunkers at your natural and not move out until you build up a critical mass and get your infantry upgrades / attack upgrades early and watch out for zealot drops.
@PhiliBiRD
Meh i dont want to argue with you.
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On February 08 2011 08:59 panda_inc wrote:
I actually mean attacking the protoss while he is teching to HT / getting ground attack/armour upgrades. The biggest vulnerability of gateway strats is EMPed sentries and stim marines. Against these strats you want to be super defensive with lots of bunkers at your natural and not move out until you build up a critical mass and get your infantry upgrades / attack upgrades early and watch out for zealot drops.
@PhiliBiRD
Meh i dont want to argue with you.
Smart since PB is well over 3k master, if I'm not mistaken.
Once late game kicks in, and zealots take over instead of stalkers, get 2-3 fac, at least one with reactors or you're asking to get your infantry run over. You can't stay bio for long vs protoss anymore, they got it so hard countered.
You have to harass as you expo and push. In short, upgrade mech, and churn out blue flames. Nothing stops you from sneaking 2 to an expo to roast probes, or slide to the nat during a fight at another spot. Their high mobility leaves MANY options.
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I'm going to agree with everyone on using blue flame hellions.
With TvP, marines are a nice mineral dump early game(and we need mineral dumps thx to mules to get them to their full potential)
But when mid-late game kicks in and protss start going more zealot/ht temp in reaction to your growing MMM ball, that's when you better have blue flame researched and factories rdy to churn out the Hellions to become your new mineral dump. They really are under-appreciated even if they are squishy, they work almost as well as mutas and don't cost gas. They can out-position protoss armies that try to chase them around in wide-open maps. They can sneak around enemy mineral lines that don't have cannons and kill probes. They can be combo'd with dropships and get behind enemy lines to, wel kill more probes.
And as said by other posters, they can melt zealots as well as hts. Like lately, I've been prefering using them over trying to depend on EMP, especially since protss players have been getting better at moving back and forth and having me completely miss and waste emp shots, and throw down 450+gas that could have gone towards thors and the minerals that can go towards blue flame hellions that can just one shot several hts at once with 4+hellions (3 if u get +2 weapon I believe)
Lately i've been going towards a 4rax(tech) 1 factory 2 port(reactor) play when it's 2 base vs 2 base.
Once I start building my third base, I start building 2 additional factories and get 2 w/ tech 1 w/ reactor and start churning out blue blames and thors when I see/suspect my opponent going down the ht route.
Another thing to consider, is trying to prevent them from getting hts in the first place, as it takes awhile to get that tech. Just do a lil poking in the front with a hellion, scan, find their tech. Poke again with hellion, bait their army towards the front, while dropping 8 marauders in their base to snipe tech, any pylons, production buildings, and then get the hell outta there b4 their army comes.
Always feels great when you can get away with that b/c you know you're crippling their army for the inevitible big battle, every lil dent counts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/136351-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
This game got a bit sloppy on my part in the beginning to mid region, but the later stages of the game I think shows what I mean about the power blue flames can have, and my poor micro shows you don't need to be pro and can still beat protoss XD Thors help as well
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/136354-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/136356-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
These two games I think gives a good idea on what can be a good solid opening into expo on smaller maps. And has a lil tech sniping as well. Just probably shouldn't wall off like I do, kinda debatable b/c of possibility of voids to abuse wall, and all that. I sometimes do it though since usually my early pressure usually forces protoss to go into "Oh f**k" mode and throw down gates and sentries to defend.
Hope they help
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thanks for the help guys :D
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(as a protoss newb)
just a question if I see this shouldn't I go chargelot/vr's now that the vr now welps thors (when the vrs are spread out) seems like a deadly counter to me seeing how theres no rines to welp my vrs?
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TvP with templars is all micro
Invest in around 5-6 ghosts, grab mobieus reactor and even cloak and attempt to bait his army. Throwing a scan before engaging his army will help you pull off a good EMP, even if two storms go off instead of 6, you're probably gonna win that game.
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Use blue flame hellions to buy time for BC/ghost (ghost to EMP templar). The BCs will have a field day and if he tries to switch to voids there will be a timing window to attack.
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EPT
