EPTZvT How many mutas? - Page 2
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:43 JBrown08 wrote: You're an idiot. Why would you even post here? It is an ZvT article and you have a very low post count. You are not funny, and you added nothing to the post, thanks. . Now onto the topic at hand; I find it depends on the situation. If he is going mass thor then I stop pretty early. Otherwise I mass muta and harrass where he doesn't have turrets. There is always somewhere, and you can dictate where his army is based on this. Then once you have a significant advantage push where he is not. A 2 base terran does not stand a chance against 20 blings going for his expo. I'm terribly sorry for the off-topic here, but the guy talks as if post counts mattered, and even has less post counts, so... lolwut? back to the topic, I find 12-15 mutas "just enough", since it already forces unwanted turrets and thors. If he decides that marines are enough to hold my mutas, I just make a ton more while making a ton of zerglings(always upgraded, try to get crack asap since they become cost-efficient versus marines when 3/3 crack), and use mutas to achieve positional superiority, such as pulling marines away from tanks or just for the sake of denying drops. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:49 esla_sol wrote: on a side note: how does the muta bounce get affected by upgrades? It adds +1 to the first attack, so it becomes 10/3.33/1.11 (SC2 keeps track of fractional HP, if you're wondering.) @op You only need about 15 mutas in ZvT to harass. Any more is not very necessary, and you can tech to infestors and hive instead with that gas. It's also possible to go mass muta, but I personally feel like mass mutas is simply too weak to thors and marines when the Terran finally moves out. And you're going to have to use everything you've got to defend you when the Terran moves out. Mutas won't cut it. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:54 Zephirdd wrote: I'm terribly sorry for the off-topic here, but the guy talks as if post counts mattered, and even has less post counts, so... lolwut? back to the topic, I find 12-15 mutas "just enough", since it already forces unwanted turrets and thors. If he decides that marines are enough to hold my mutas, I just make a ton more while making a ton of zerglings(always upgraded, try to get crack asap since they become cost-efficient versus marines when 3/3 crack), and use mutas to achieve positional superiority, such as pulling marines away from tanks or just for the sake of denying drops. What? As a new poster I understand the fine line of having a low post count to high content ratio. It is generally unadvisable to have a low post count and high stupid post count. Now that fact aside, in what world is 37 posts higher then 100 some-odd posts? | ||
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chuigo
Australia93 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:32 whatthefat wrote: There's no answer to this. It's completely situational. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
Hate to quote chain, but this is the answer If they got an early E-bay or Armory I wouldn't even bother with the Spire unless it was absolutely necessary. If they are going mass marines, I'll hold off on the lair or rush Infestor/SpeedBling. If they are going heavy tank or air, I'd go Muta and harass them. It depends on what THEY are doing, that's the point of Zerg, it's reactionary. If they got no defenses, get like 6-10 mutas and attack from two angles. If they got a shit ton, either get a shit ton of Muta's too or tech switch. Muta's are not meant for fighting, they are meant for harass and map control. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 05 2011 13:33 Fruscainte wrote: Hate to quote chain, but this is the answer If they got an early E-bay or Armory I wouldn't even bother with the Spire unless it was absolutely necessary. If they are going mass marines, I'll hold off on the lair or rush Infestor/SpeedBling. If they are going heavy tank or air, I'd go Muta and harass them. It depends on what THEY are doing, that's the point of Zerg, it's reactionary. If they got no defenses, get like 6-10 mutas and attack from two angles. If they got a shit ton, either get a shit ton of Muta's too or tech switch. Muta's are not meant for fighting, they are meant for harass and map control. Mutas are meant to kill drops. My take on this is that it's fine to make 30 or so mutas if he's only going tank marine. Idra does this a lot. If he makes more than two thors, the the effectiveness of mutalisk is greatly decreased and at that point, you should just concentrate on a ground army. Against a marine thor army, don't make more than 5 mutas, spend your gas on infestors instead. You'll still want 5 mutas lying around just to kill drops. | ||
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Tandinel
66 Posts
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 05 2011 05:00 Omni17 wrote: I'm always making mutas. If he decides to get tons of thor just magic box em. All terran has to do is put 12 marines behind those thors and you'll lose all your mutas. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On February 05 2011 14:05 T.O.P. wrote: A lot of people think that having 10-15 mutas is really good, but I disagree. 10-15 mutas doesn't give you enough strength to take on turrets, yet if you find a hole in the terran's defense, having 5-6 mutas will allow you to take advantage of that just as well as having 10-15 mutas. People are also saying that having 10-15 mutas give them map control, but I disagree. I find that terrans in master league (3200), have no fear of 10-15 mutas at all. They'll just push you if they see 10-15 mutas and zerg will have a hard time winning the battle because they spent so much money on mutas. It's really hard to engage the terran army with 10-15 mutas too because mutas are so weak in head to head combat. Having 30 mutas will give you map control though. All terran has to do is put 12 marines behind those thors and you'll lose all your mutas. I agree fully here. If you stop at 10-15 mutas, terran will just take his 3rd, put his army there while he turns it into a PF, and make 5-6 turrets, and it will be untouchable until you get hive. NOT a situation you want to be in. You need critical mass of mutas in order to fight 250 hp turrets. Otherwise PF + 5-6 turrets + scv repair can defend his 3rd with 0 supply, and he can send his entire army straight at you, while pumping 3 base reinforcements. 3 base with MULEs can easily mine 2000+ minerals/min (2400+ if the 3rd is a gold), with upgraded marines being so strong in TvZ that's a losing battle for sure. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
5-15 mutas, will allow you to force turrets, force him to make some amount of AA, allow you to stop reinforcements, deny scouting, and drops. In small numbers, they often pay for themselves quite easily, since just a couple of turrets needed to defend, and a couple of SCVs or a drop is already enough to make them worth it. They also allow you to scout what he is doing, and give you a lot of map vision. So in short, 5-15 mutas are really worth their cost. But once he does move out with his force, and has a couple of turrets, thats about it, now your mutas are not very useful anymore, you will need a big army to crush his push, or deny his third. Masses of mutalisks though, are quite different. There, we are talking about 30+ mutas, with a +1 attack upgrade. At this point, your opponent is no longer faced with a small delay while he sets up turrets, now it becomes very risky for him to ever leave his base at all, because you have enough mutas that he really needs a TON of turrets to defend. However though, 30+ mutas and the upgrades are a very significant investment, one that will no longer be accounted for by him making turrets. 30+ mutas is a lot of money, and since they are mutas, they still arent really going to help you all that much in a fight, they are still bad fighting units. At this point though, you are delaying him significantly. So even though the mutas no longer pay for themselves simply wuth the fact that he is forced to defend, you can now use the delay to get up an extra base, and perhaps even delay his base, and thus the investment in mutas also pays for itself, but in quite a different way. Both playstyles are quite effective, both work pretty well. They are also really different from one another. The first one aims to simply force turrets (+all the other benefits of mutas). The second one aims to have enough to still do damage even though the opponent gets turrets. | ||
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