EPTZvT How many mutas?
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brokenSC
United States84 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
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ShindyK2
Korea (South)19 Posts
Assuming you dont make any mistakes because pros usually dont (Nestea vs MVP lulwut) that includes not losing a severe percentage of them and forgetting to magic box. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
with +1 air attack, 25 mutas one-shot a turret with +2 air attack, 23 mutas one-shot a turret These are pretty good goals to set, as once you can quickly pick off turrets you essentially force terran to keep marines/thors next to his expansions, thus giving you map control again. | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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Victim
United States188 Posts
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
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Xylarthen
United States137 Posts
The OP asks about Thors, and whatthefat said it is completely situational, and it is. Like with most every question in SC2 strategy, there is no simple answer. I would say there are three (four) amounts of Mutas you could get: 5-7: to present a threat and then tech-switch or early harass. Many players may go overboard on the defensive upon seeing 5-7 thinking that Mutas 8 to "I'm screwed" are coming soon. 12: a significant threat, and solid map control/harass, probably force air-counters. A single pass can usually destroy several workers before being chased off. 30: 1-shots turrets, quickly dispatches thors, forces ground units as creating air counters usually is innefective at this point unless they already have a decent amount. Not cost effective, but able to engage in a head on fight. (30+: Critical mass.) It just depends on how the game is going, what you're trying to do, and how skilled you are at using Mutas/building your "backup" army while manipulating your flock. | ||
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OzkanTheFlip
United States246 Posts
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Omni17
United States141 Posts
If he decides to get tons of thor just magic box em. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Edit: More on topic: The rule of thumb when going muta, as I understand it, is to try and maintain a flock of 25-30 mutas so that you can quickly knock out turrets, add-ons, thors, etc. Edit 2: When T is getting lots of thors, though, Infestor with Nerual Parasite is really much better than muta. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On February 05 2011 05:11 Zarahtra wrote: As a terran player, I'm much more afraid of just 5-10 mutas than mass. I mean those 5-10 mutas already give map control, make drops a lot more risky and in general are just annoying and in your face. If you mass, I'll just end up forcing you to come home by attacking you. At that time, if I micro decently, get a few tank shots on the blings, it is very unlikely that you have enough actual army to deal with it. This is when the distance is short to medium, when it's cross position meta fx. I feel there's almost nothing I can do against mass muta if I can't stop the harass early enough via thors. This is my experience as a Z player as well. With a larger flock of mutalisks, you're not accomplishing anything that you can't accomplish with 8-10 mutalisks (unless the Terran refuses to respond to mutalisks with turrets/thors, in which case, build more mutalisks and exploit that). However, mutalisks are gas expensive and supply expensive (they really don't do much DPS per supply). If you compare their gas and supply cost to, say, a ton of zergling/baneling, you'll realize that zerglings and banelings do WAY more damage per supply than mutalisks (for 1 mutalisk you can get 4! banelings). Infestors are also really supply efficient and cost efficient because, if you can keep them alive, you can trade Terran's resources for energy which recharges for free. Not only that, but I find that infestors are decent against thors as well with NP. If Terran overcompensates on anti-mutalisk units (marines + thors), you can usually punish him/hold him off long enough for broodlords. | ||
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innoby
Ireland42 Posts
I play toss, and I open Phoenix FE, muta's are just a less polite way of a zerg GGing... User was warned for this post | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
If you only go for a couple (say 5 to 8) then your goal is to get air control, force turrets and deny drops. After you've forced your opponent to get respond to your mutas, you transition into something else (roaches, infestors, MASS banelings or maybe directly to broodlords). If you get a ton (use most of your gas on mutas, get air upgrades) you force a harder turtle (more turrets, possibly thors) but also you'll HAVE to use your mutas in combat. When you have enough mutas you can overwhelm low numbers of turrets, using the mutas as a counter-attack. The downside of getting a ton of mutas is that you won't be able to spend your gas elsewhere (except the requisite banelings). Balancing muta + roach is awkward gas-wise, you definitely can't afford infestors, and your hive is usually delayed. Generally, going for a ton of mutas is better on larger maps, where the mobility of the muta is more exploitable. Both styles are viable though. Idra usually favors the mass muta styles, where a lot of koreans will transition into ling/baneling/roach on the ground after just a few mutas. | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
On February 05 2011 08:17 innoby wrote: Don't build any at all.... I play toss, and I open Phoenix FE, muta's are just a less polite way of a zerg GGing... Thread Title. Called ZvT | ||
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Dhurn
United States53 Posts
On February 05 2011 08:17 innoby wrote: Don't build any at all.... I play toss, and I open Phoenix FE, muta's are just a less polite way of a zerg GGing... Dumb, even if it wasn't specifically ZvT thread. Personally I like to hover in the 8-15 range. Just feels like a good number to run around picking stuff off and be annoying with while not investing a ton of gas. More than that I feel way too vulnerable with that much supply tied up (60+ workers, 3-5 queens, plus mutas and you're already near 100). Certainly mass can be used to great effect, I've seen it both in replays and against me, just comes down to the style of the player and the current situation I guess. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
On February 05 2011 08:17 innoby wrote: Don't build any at all.... I play toss, and I open Phoenix FE, muta's are just a less polite way of a zerg GGing... You're an idiot. Why would you even post here? It is an ZvT article and you have a very low post count. You are not funny, and you added nothing to the post, thanks. . Now onto the topic at hand; I find it depends on the situation. If he is going mass thor then I stop pretty early. Otherwise I mass muta and harrass where he doesn't have turrets. There is always somewhere, and you can dictate where his army is based on this. Then once you have a significant advantage push where he is not. A 2 base terran does not stand a chance against 20 blings going for his expo. | ||
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:43 JBrown08 wrote: You're an idiot. Why would you even post here? It is an ZvT article and you have a very low post count. You are not funny, and you added nothing to the post, thanks. . Now onto the topic at hand; I find it depends on the situation. If he is going mass thor then I stop pretty early. Otherwise I mass muta and harrass where he doesn't have turrets. There is always somewhere, and you can dictate where his army is based on this. Then once you have a significant advantage push where he is not. A 2 base terran does not stand a chance against 20 blings going for his expo. I'm terribly sorry for the off-topic here, but the guy talks as if post counts mattered, and even has less post counts, so... lolwut? back to the topic, I find 12-15 mutas "just enough", since it already forces unwanted turrets and thors. If he decides that marines are enough to hold my mutas, I just make a ton more while making a ton of zerglings(always upgraded, try to get crack asap since they become cost-efficient versus marines when 3/3 crack), and use mutas to achieve positional superiority, such as pulling marines away from tanks or just for the sake of denying drops. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:49 esla_sol wrote: on a side note: how does the muta bounce get affected by upgrades? It adds +1 to the first attack, so it becomes 10/3.33/1.11 (SC2 keeps track of fractional HP, if you're wondering.) @op You only need about 15 mutas in ZvT to harass. Any more is not very necessary, and you can tech to infestors and hive instead with that gas. It's also possible to go mass muta, but I personally feel like mass mutas is simply too weak to thors and marines when the Terran finally moves out. And you're going to have to use everything you've got to defend you when the Terran moves out. Mutas won't cut it. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:54 Zephirdd wrote: I'm terribly sorry for the off-topic here, but the guy talks as if post counts mattered, and even has less post counts, so... lolwut? back to the topic, I find 12-15 mutas "just enough", since it already forces unwanted turrets and thors. If he decides that marines are enough to hold my mutas, I just make a ton more while making a ton of zerglings(always upgraded, try to get crack asap since they become cost-efficient versus marines when 3/3 crack), and use mutas to achieve positional superiority, such as pulling marines away from tanks or just for the sake of denying drops. What? As a new poster I understand the fine line of having a low post count to high content ratio. It is generally unadvisable to have a low post count and high stupid post count. Now that fact aside, in what world is 37 posts higher then 100 some-odd posts? | ||
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chuigo
Australia93 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:32 whatthefat wrote: There's no answer to this. It's completely situational. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
Hate to quote chain, but this is the answer If they got an early E-bay or Armory I wouldn't even bother with the Spire unless it was absolutely necessary. If they are going mass marines, I'll hold off on the lair or rush Infestor/SpeedBling. If they are going heavy tank or air, I'd go Muta and harass them. It depends on what THEY are doing, that's the point of Zerg, it's reactionary. If they got no defenses, get like 6-10 mutas and attack from two angles. If they got a shit ton, either get a shit ton of Muta's too or tech switch. Muta's are not meant for fighting, they are meant for harass and map control. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 05 2011 13:33 Fruscainte wrote: Hate to quote chain, but this is the answer If they got an early E-bay or Armory I wouldn't even bother with the Spire unless it was absolutely necessary. If they are going mass marines, I'll hold off on the lair or rush Infestor/SpeedBling. If they are going heavy tank or air, I'd go Muta and harass them. It depends on what THEY are doing, that's the point of Zerg, it's reactionary. If they got no defenses, get like 6-10 mutas and attack from two angles. If they got a shit ton, either get a shit ton of Muta's too or tech switch. Muta's are not meant for fighting, they are meant for harass and map control. Mutas are meant to kill drops. My take on this is that it's fine to make 30 or so mutas if he's only going tank marine. Idra does this a lot. If he makes more than two thors, the the effectiveness of mutalisk is greatly decreased and at that point, you should just concentrate on a ground army. Against a marine thor army, don't make more than 5 mutas, spend your gas on infestors instead. You'll still want 5 mutas lying around just to kill drops. | ||
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Tandinel
66 Posts
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 05 2011 05:00 Omni17 wrote: I'm always making mutas. If he decides to get tons of thor just magic box em. All terran has to do is put 12 marines behind those thors and you'll lose all your mutas. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On February 05 2011 14:05 T.O.P. wrote: A lot of people think that having 10-15 mutas is really good, but I disagree. 10-15 mutas doesn't give you enough strength to take on turrets, yet if you find a hole in the terran's defense, having 5-6 mutas will allow you to take advantage of that just as well as having 10-15 mutas. People are also saying that having 10-15 mutas give them map control, but I disagree. I find that terrans in master league (3200), have no fear of 10-15 mutas at all. They'll just push you if they see 10-15 mutas and zerg will have a hard time winning the battle because they spent so much money on mutas. It's really hard to engage the terran army with 10-15 mutas too because mutas are so weak in head to head combat. Having 30 mutas will give you map control though. All terran has to do is put 12 marines behind those thors and you'll lose all your mutas. I agree fully here. If you stop at 10-15 mutas, terran will just take his 3rd, put his army there while he turns it into a PF, and make 5-6 turrets, and it will be untouchable until you get hive. NOT a situation you want to be in. You need critical mass of mutas in order to fight 250 hp turrets. Otherwise PF + 5-6 turrets + scv repair can defend his 3rd with 0 supply, and he can send his entire army straight at you, while pumping 3 base reinforcements. 3 base with MULEs can easily mine 2000+ minerals/min (2400+ if the 3rd is a gold), with upgraded marines being so strong in TvZ that's a losing battle for sure. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
5-15 mutas, will allow you to force turrets, force him to make some amount of AA, allow you to stop reinforcements, deny scouting, and drops. In small numbers, they often pay for themselves quite easily, since just a couple of turrets needed to defend, and a couple of SCVs or a drop is already enough to make them worth it. They also allow you to scout what he is doing, and give you a lot of map vision. So in short, 5-15 mutas are really worth their cost. But once he does move out with his force, and has a couple of turrets, thats about it, now your mutas are not very useful anymore, you will need a big army to crush his push, or deny his third. Masses of mutalisks though, are quite different. There, we are talking about 30+ mutas, with a +1 attack upgrade. At this point, your opponent is no longer faced with a small delay while he sets up turrets, now it becomes very risky for him to ever leave his base at all, because you have enough mutas that he really needs a TON of turrets to defend. However though, 30+ mutas and the upgrades are a very significant investment, one that will no longer be accounted for by him making turrets. 30+ mutas is a lot of money, and since they are mutas, they still arent really going to help you all that much in a fight, they are still bad fighting units. At this point though, you are delaying him significantly. So even though the mutas no longer pay for themselves simply wuth the fact that he is forced to defend, you can now use the delay to get up an extra base, and perhaps even delay his base, and thus the investment in mutas also pays for itself, but in quite a different way. Both playstyles are quite effective, both work pretty well. They are also really different from one another. The first one aims to simply force turrets (+all the other benefits of mutas). The second one aims to have enough to still do damage even though the opponent gets turrets. | ||
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