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On February 06 2011 10:11 wzp wrote:
ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
It doesn't make your gameplay worse, but you won't learn and progress neither. So if your doing that on ladder, specially for low league player where the fundamentals are so bad, you'll have a lot off win, your opponents will get better but not you.
Cause let's face it, execute that build well is not that hard and don't require as much of practice as manage a good and long macro game.
I personally like this all in a lot, it's very powerful. It's good to have some all in for BO3 imo, i did this on ladder once or twice, and mainly on YABOT to test the timing on different maps with the BO3 logic in mind, i find that it's very good on LT.
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United States415 Posts
Can argue all century long about what takes more skill but the bottom line is what wins games? You can say this doesn't teach you anything or help your game but if you're winning instead of losing then you're wrong, it IS helping your game. If the only purpose of playing was to get better what would be the point of getting better? The point is to WIN and if the cheese lets you do that then you won the game, end of story.
The only real discussion left is how do you stop it, and is it too powerful and needs to be patched? I'm not going to venture a guess on either of these but I think that's what this topic should be discussing, not whether or not it will still work in a year. The game moves and changes and every build is part of it. Right now, cheese is 100% standard and stable against Z so why should it be wrong for Z to do it sometimes too?
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On February 06 2011 10:11 wzp wrote:
ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
I think NonY said it pretty well on SotG awhile ago, 90% of the time you have to all in at some point, weather it be on one base or 5. If you feel confident enough in your strategy to go all in and expect to win the game in the first 4-9 minutes, that's ballsy.
That being said, I don't think 1 base all-ins should be the main focus of your play, if you want to grow as a player (not saying it is for you). I think MKP's style is pretty sick to watch, but it gets annoying when that's ALL he does, you begin to feel like that's all he CAN do, and isn't all that good outside his gimmick (which I"m not saying he isn't, despite him eating it pretty hard at the last GSL when he tried to do something else.
Flash is/was Fucking Brilliant at decision making, so players allot of times try to take him out early because they know if they let him live, they're going to have a very hard time pulling a win, and don't think about him doing all-in 1 base plays, but he mixes them in from time to time to catch people off guard. I think that's awesome.
So no, there's nothing wrong with one base all-in timings, I just don't feel they should be a player's "go-to" plan.
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I've managed to make this build work and even in times where I see I can't bust my opponents wall due to too many sentries or cannons, I simply back off and macro, my overlord will be at his front door to check out his wall situation and by then I have the choice of doing an all-in with speedlings, or saving the minerals for an expansion.
I've also had it where in a bo3 I've used this build to win the first game, then the next game when my opponent came to check the timing of my roach warren, I was able to get a pair of lings out before the warren finished, I chased out the probe, canceled the warren and expanded. His reaction? Cannon at his front and delay teching, and I ended up winning later in a macro game.
So can this build be countered? Yes, but it's clearly a new meta game shift for ZvP. Once all the protoss figure out how to counter the build, you can expect that once they scout your quick Roach warren that they will respond with the counter. Chase the probe out and transition into a macro game, it's definitely do able and you have ling speed for map control which is always a benefit. This build really makes the protoss react to you rather than the other way around which is a nice change and will certainly change how ZvP is played.
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On February 05 2011 10:18 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:22 Luckbox wrote:On February 05 2011 08:19 badday wrote:http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUYI know the build isnt executed optimal but it's also steppes of war and I messed up at least at one point. im not saying the build is bad I'm just saying that after all the analyzing on TL it's not gonna be very useful. one part that is kinda sad with this build is that its real easy to execute and hard to defend. many players will use it to reach higher leagues until suddenly it gets beat every time and they get a 0% win ratio. Just like 4gating..oh wait that crap still works in masters. At least four gating teaches you timings, micro, remembering exact warp in times, not getting supply blocked, and has transitions out of it.
Yeah, 4gate is so hard to execute. We bow to all P players that have the timings, exact warp in times, and the micro required to pull it off.
get a hold of yourself.
Oh and good job OP, it's nice to see someone dedicated so much time making it work.
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 06 2011 10:11 wzp wrote:
ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
It definitely makes you worse (in comparison to your opponents) in long-term games because you don't play them as much as another player who will not cheese/allin as often.
The way i see it is every player has strenghts/weaknesses. Playing almost only 1base, allins and cheese highlights some of these strenghts and weaknesses with respect to others, but it doesn't mean you are a worse player in general. To me good players just win games, in any way they can.
The bottom line is, builds like that after a while can get easy to stop, and eventually you reach the point where your all-ins and one-base pushes dont work as well, so you either change your builds or suddenly start losing a lot of games (3rax to me is a good example of this).
On the other hand, being good at macroing is more general and will allow you to win games as strategies change.
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Okey, first:
STEP 7: zerglings speed upgrade ( IF YOU WANNA KNOW IF YOU ARE DOING THE BUILD FINE YOU GOTTA MAKE ZERGLINGS SPEED AT EXACTLY 100m/100g) if you are doing the speed upgrade at 120m/100g or more mineral or gas, means you just failed and a third sentry will be there to block the ramp forever.
20 minerals are mined in few seconds and you say if I am late in few seconds then 3rd sentry is out and can block ramp forever. So you mention that few seconds can make this build worthless but you don't say anything about maps. I mean different distance between maps are more than few seconds traveling so what you just said does not make much sense.
That's a strong all in but there are a lot of things: on what maps this build does not work; what if opponent goes forge/canons; isn't it better to proxy roach warren by making hatch cancel so you know for sure he is not going to have canons; what about if opponent opens forge first?
You could give much more detail if you was practising this build so long 
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what if your opponent goes forge FE? i was able to kill the zealot door and ran by a group of lings who were only able to do 3-4 probes worth of dmg since they were so low from cannons. i checked the replay, at the time my roaches are almost halfway there, he has +5 probes on me.. my question is if you see his build is a forge fe with cannons, do you skip the reinforcement lings and instead build drones with them? your inject pops and you can immediately catch up on probes as well as have an expo soon after
maybe thats the difference between making this strictly an all in build and an opportunity build.
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On February 06 2011 22:02 LsPhizix wrote:
what if your opponent goes forge FE? i was able to kill the zealot door and ran by a group of lings who were only able to do 3-4 probes worth of dmg since they were so low from cannons. i checked the replay, at the time my roaches are almost halfway there, he has +5 probes on me.. my question is if you see his build is a forge fe with cannons, do you skip the reinforcement lings and instead build drones with them? your inject pops and you can immediately catch up on probes as well as have an expo soon after
maybe thats the difference between making this strictly an all in build and an opportunity build.
if he has a bad sim city, and only one cannon, i'd just punish the toss fe just like bw style with lings, micro your roaches vs the zealot. it really depends on what you see though even if he pulls probes, you're just going to have a shit ton of lings. micro micro micro. diamond here, but i guess that doesn't matter much.
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it looks really interesting! I have a suggestion to counter protoss scout with probe, which seems unavoidable. why not building the roach warren outside your base, with a hatchery cancel trick?
So you take a drone, when you're around 17. Make a hatch somewhere on the map. Cancel it, use the creep to put immediately a roach warren. and then queen.
OF course you'll loose a bit of money and time... maybe it'll completely throw off the cheese (you seem to be very very careful about timing) but maybe not so much... worth a try at least no?
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wzp u gotta help me with 1 thing tho. It has become more popular nowadays when a toss blindly throw up cannons at your nat and at his front. Does your build work then aswell or do I change the build?
(When i'm talking about cannons at his front there's just only 1 or 2 cannons.)
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The problem with this build is if you started to do it and it appears opponent is doing fast forge expand it is insta loss. And when you don't scout you can't know if he is doing forge FE.
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I totally have that third roach come out 1-2 seconds later than the first two, lol. Guess i'll need to work on it 
The other discussion as to whether "cheese" like this makes you worse - not always.
There's a point where you go from doing an approximate build order to doing something that is more refined. If I described the build as early ling/roach pressure to counter a 4 gate, 3 gate expand, then I'd be missing the finer details which actually make this build viable; namely the timing of the attack. Refining your play, to execute a build such that the objective (in this case an attack) happens at a moment in which it is viable is something every player should understand. Players should try all kinds of builds, just the act of KNOWING it couldn't hurt you.
That said, if you exclusively 6 pool, then yeah, you're not going to understand what to do in any game that lasts longer than the time it takes to execute one (because there's likely no follow up). But having that knowledge means you can work on other builds, maybe an 8 pool Everything is about process and learning the consequences/benefits of each build is a good habit to have.
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well well i had some time for reading so lets answer some questions. (sorry for my lame english)
1 - if you are making the build with such tight timings, and microing well i do belive that you are improving your game for it is hard to make it right.
2- for protoss cannons up the ramp - --- you gotta count the # of cannons of the enemy, if he have 1 cannon keep going with the push / the 3 roaches should be able to stomp the zealot and cannon while the force field goes away, even if they die you can make it with lings. if he have 2 cannons you gotta cancel the roach warren and put down a baneling nest right away, try to target the cannons if possible, if you alrdy did the roach warren, try to attack a gateway or zealot witouth beign hit by the cannons while you make the banelings 5-6 to break in. if there is 3 or more cannons expand and drone up a lot and then transition into a hydra-roach build ussually makes it.
3- for protoss FE with cannons you should NOT have trouble with this build unless it is lost temple, go around the cannons with roaches, hit the nexus, try to run by to the main with speedlings, just do a good micro war in there, you dont have to actually kill the cannons, but you also dont need a baneling nest unless hes spaming zealots or something.
4- about the 120m/100g comment, it might seem like its not that important, but you will be getting your 3th roach 1-2 secs like my friend just on the comment above, and it IS important, belive me, when you face Onecruncher/ katari or such extreme good players, that is a second or two, you cant afford to lose.
5- THIS BUILD WORKS ON THE FOLLOWING MAPS ONLY( or i wouldnt recoment doing it on the other maps) : ALL... but blizztering sands, scrap station and shakuras plateu. for this current map pool.
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Considering that this build has tight timings and is pretty micro intensive, yes, it's going to make you better.
Is it going to improve your macro Game? No..
But that is pretty freaking obvious.
It's clearly an all-in and I am personally very happy to have it in my possible repertoire for a BoX.
So thanks to the OP!
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The easiest way to spot this coming is to watch whether the zerg makes an OL at 15 or not. Basically, if an OL pops at same time as pool, it is not the build.
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Yes, this build is an excellent slice of cheese to keep in your belt. Don't try to build a career off it though.
In the meantime, I will enjoy macrostomping people who are made paranoid by these sorts of all-ins.
I would like to note that this is sort of similar to the 3RR spam roach all-in I usually use on Steppes, I might switch this one in against protoss because roaches are so slow.
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Im loving this build im destroying protoss on the ladder catching them unaware. Even if they scout the roach warren they have trouble to react accordingly. Also tried it against terran and zerg and it doesnt seem the work against those 2 races at all. Im gonna accumulate allot of cheesy wins this way so im having fun while it lasts
And as other posters have said you can cancel the roach warren and shift to macro game to throw protoss offguard once this build becomes more common.
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On February 07 2011 03:14 wzp wrote:
1 - if you are making the build with such tight timings, and microing well i do belive that you are improving your game for it is hard to make it right.
If you are making the build, yes it helps you improve, because you understand what you are doing. You improve your "build making" skill, and that will help you after your all-in start to be frequently countered.
However, if you are just copying the build without understanding the reason behind each action, then you are not improving at all. It will allow you to win some games, but eventually people will to counter the all-in, and you won't have made any progress.
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On February 06 2011 23:40 apalemorning wrote:
if he has a bad sim city, and only one cannon, i'd just punish the toss fe just like bw style with lings, micro your roaches vs the zealot. it really depends on what you see though even if he pulls probes, you're just going to have a shit ton of lings. micro micro micro. diamond here, but i guess that doesn't matter much.
yeah, i guess i coulda bypassed with probes was my fault actually.. his door was weak for a fe and roaches can make it by the cannons coulda done way more dmg to probes
that being said.... my bros account was at silver 3w/3l and now its at 25w/12 and im in gold... beat diamond player and platinum player with this build.
was called a dbag for all in.
loved it.
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EPT
