EPT[D]Evolving the ZvP Matchup - Page 5
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alonth
Israel36 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I mean, both T3 Zerg die in seconds to VoidRay. Broodlord are easy to snipe during fight with them, and ultra are most likely the only unit that let VR charge up. ( Don't forget the recent +20% damage to massive buff ) However, i really see a muta ling + banelings carpet bomb working against Colo VR. We need to see more pro trying this instead of the classic Roach Hydra, which always seems to be bad in large fight due to their supply cost. ( 2 food each, mean you generaly have ~30 roach ~30 Hydra + some corruptor. ( 150 suply easily ) and tbh, it's nothing against 4 or more colossi. ) | ||
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DTWolfwood
38 Posts
I mean that funday monday was very enlightening when Mass Queens just don't die. kinda feel like Zergs arent thinking outside the box enough. Or more use of Nydus worms. not only to harass but to use as an escape route. It just looks like Zerg just keeps using the same strat that does work.  I wanna see mass queens in pro play Zerg's only other Spell caster and no1 ever uses them offensively >.< | ||
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warcralft
Singapore609 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On March 07 2011 22:54 DTWolfwood wrote: Curious if anyone ever thought to try Mass Queen Ultras against a toss Max army? I mean that funday monday was very enlightening when Mass Queens just don't die. kinda feel like Zergs arent thinking outside the box enough. Or more use of Nydus worms. not only to harass but to use as an escape route. It just looks like Zerg just keeps using the same strat that does work. I wanna see mass queens in pro play Zerg's only other Spell caster and no1 ever uses them offensively >.< Well, i think ppl don't use Nydus because of the gas cost. Think about it, a single Nydus worm is 200 + 100 gas. It's 6 Hydra or 12 Roaches or 3 Muta or 2 Infestors or all the tech fo drop play worth of Gas for something completly incertain in terms of effectiveness. ( can be scout, killed... ) | ||
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uobradbury
United States45 Posts
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PTCpb
Canada11 Posts
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majestouch
United States395 Posts
and also, don't ever try and mention neural parasite as an option it is hoping you opponent doesn't notice or responds too late, moreover it has several flaws: 9 range (enough to be hit by a colli as it begins to cast), puts a big ass cable which is obvious as hell, and are EASILY sniped. and you will say "well your infestors should be at the back of your army and so they won't get killed". incorrect. that is an ideal situation, you're army isn't going to be right in their face because of forcefields i'm too lazy to draw a picture and upload it but your infestors are goign to be out in the open. I like the brain storming though, I would like to see some ideas with queens, however, it would be nice if queens had 8--instead of 7 range because 7 is too short thus allowing queens to get wrecked by the stalkers and such. i'm a 3700 masters zerg on us server. bluewaffle.127 if ur curious. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On March 08 2011 03:52 majestouch wrote: not to discredit you, but you post nothing of your credibility in the OP. now through looking at your name and sc2ranksing that you're 3500~ meaning that what you say may carry some merit. now to talk about what you're saying, yes banelings rape everything (really, they do). however, the problem lies in several factors: banelings really aren't that fast. they just aren't. even on creep they are quite slow. forcefields, they are a bitch and effectively make banelings useles, therefore, you need either to drop them or lead with ultralisk [to crush forcefields], which, there in lies the problem yet again. Teching straight to ultralisk can be done in about 12-15min depending on how the game plays out, however, this is straight teching--cutting mutas, or roaches/hydras w/e or what not you will be open to basically any other strat. Now lets go back to drops, the problem with overlords is they are slow, even with speed they are slow [0.4687 (+1.4062)]. 1.86 speed is slower than ANY ground movement speed. and if you are going for drops, then you most likely won't be getting ultras due to resource constraints. thus, the protoss can forcefield their way out of the situation. The problem seems to be the timing of the deathball rather than actually countering it. it hits before you can get everything you need to perfectly counter it, therefore, that is the actual problem. and also, don't ever try and mention neural parasite as an option it is hoping you opponent doesn't notice or responds too late, moreover it has several flaws: 9 range (enough to be hit by a colli as it begins to cast), puts a big ass cable which is obvious as hell, and are EASILY sniped. and you will say "well your infestors should be at the back of your army and so they won't get killed". incorrect. that is an ideal situation, you're army isn't going to be right in their face because of forcefields i'm too lazy to draw a picture and upload it but your infestors are goign to be out in the open. I like the brain storming though, I would like to see some ideas with queens, however, it would be nice if queens had 8--instead of 7 range because 7 is too short thus allowing queens to get wrecked by the stalkers and such. i'm a 3700 masters zerg on us server. bluewaffle.127 if ur curious. Keep in mind that baneling drops don't need to be "super fast" in order to work. They go at a reasonable speed, and at the very least either force: 1.Toss to move out of position he wants(win for you) 2. Lose a whole bunch of his army. I personally prefer drops for the reasons he stated above: Against a good toss forcefields will be very difficult to deal with if your going mass ling bling. As for neural parasite, keep in mind we are talking about the IDEAL army. Having just 4-5 infestors and 190 regular supply can be EXTREMELY good, as we are not only talking about Neural parasite, but fungal as well! Combine this with baneling drops and you have a fungal+baneling combo that cannot be microed against well. | ||
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Xirroh
Canada146 Posts
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HomicidaL
United States283 Posts
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HomicidaL
United States283 Posts
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Amandil
United States58 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:42 HomicidaL wrote: Mass Muta destroy the death ball pretty hard, expecially if you invest in air upgrades. Mass mutas is a completely different zvp. Its not something you can tech to on a whim because it takes a decently long time to critical mass and even then arnt particularly cost effective unless you harass well with them. If a toss doesnt scout you switching to mutas and change up his tech path accordingly he probably deserves to lose. Just by making phoenix instead of void rays a toss should be able to roll over muta ling in a maxed food with proper forcefields/micro. Also contaminate doesnt work well because it doesnt actually deny your opponent resources. In zvz if i see more 2+ overseers i just throw up another hatch and although temporarily i might be floating money in the long run contaminate won't be cost effective unless your pairing it with some sort of timing attack. Same concept applies to zvp, toss can either throw up more production buildings or cannons to stop contaminates and essentially use less money to counter it then it actually takes to make enough overseers to make contaminate effective. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
well, yeah our deathball is quite strong, but the thing is as someone already mentioned, its like mech, slow and strong as hell. on ladder though it seems there are many zergs, that have figured out some ways. the first thing we can do is go for a timing attack off 2bases, well, if you have scouted that toss hasnt expanded yet, just make any units you can get and try to stop us, it is possible, otherwise we would see this strat used in any game, be it iem or gsl and no toss would ever lose to zerg, which isnt happening, so next time you lose, check your macro/micro etc. first. also dont negelect upgrades, they are hugely important. if we decide to expand, we should really have enough units to hold any of your attacks, so you shouldnt try it and instead go for your 4th base. this is propably when things start getting hairy for you folks^^. normal expand timing for 3rd base really depends on the opening, so you have to get some feeling for this. the first way is as the op mentioned corruptors, the only question is the quantity. if we decide to move out after our 3rd at about 180 sup, you should have already maxed out and got some money in your bank. i think if you go corruptors, you should really way overmake them, kinda like the terran-viking thing. rape our voids and collossi with corruptors, if you can kill those 2 units, stalkers wont do shit, its like terran losing all his tanks. remax with lings, hydras or roaches, what you like. another possible solution is the mutaswitch, i think its completely underused, with almost all our gas spend on collossi and voids, we wont be able to have many stalkers or (lol) the templartech. yeah, voids can do smth, but they are still awefull. try it out, maybe you can prove me wrong. banedrops are kinda creepy. with 10+ voidrays, you can really snipe the ols decently fast, if your on top of things. so i really depends on micro and stuff. banelings with speed are awesome though. yeah, there are forcefields, BUT, a voidray, collossus, sentry, stalker army, is reallly reallly realllllly expansive on gas, its your job to find out the weakpoints. does he have very few stalkers? you may try mutas has he stopped void ray production? corruptors are your friends does he have very few sentries? banelings ftw and then the thing almost no zerg ever thinks about, the infamous nydus/mass ovi drop. you are the swarm, you have complete mapcontrol, if we have 3+ bases, it gets insanely hard to counter all your drops and canons cost money. i dont think neither ultras nor broodlords are a good choice in this matchup vs. this unitcombo, instead try to get up 5+ hatches and pile up larvae and money. hope i could help some of you. btw, i find it rather funny, that terrans are beating zergs up in the gsl so far left and right, but none complains about that. | ||
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Malni
3 Posts
If this worked, it would help buy some more time to get the units zerg wants. Also, I'd say protoss feels kinda harrassed and maybe messes something up or simply overreacts to the overseers. I haven't tested this yet, but maybe it's another idea too few people thought about. Furthermore, I read a lot about baneling drops, but why only attack from the air? I am not sure whether protoss usuallly has an obs in his deathball, but wouldn't burrow sometimes really surprise him? of course for that u'd have to predict where the toss engages you, but if you do, maybe one can also burrow hydras and stuff behind where his army is supposed to go, and then get a nice surround after blowing him up with banelings. Unfortunately this would probably only work once against the same enemy. The main problem i think is that zerg can't face toss in a normal fight, so creativity is the key. The strength of deathball are: - direct engagement - counters almost every unit comp of zerg - very supply efficient due to expensive units - key units are very hard to reach and kill - ~30 more supply in army due to less worker count Looking at his list of strenghts, it doesn't sound recommendable to directly attack his deathball. U shouldn't attack him where he is strong, but let's see what his weak points are and how to possibly exploit them. - slow army that has to stay together -> attack his base from different sides - toss is on 2 bases with not too many workers -> zerg has the stronger economy + toss is very limited in gas and resources. This means a zerg player doesnt' have to trade efficiently; if he's able to pick off one collossus or two with losing about 5-10 mutas, thats probably worth it. - toss is dependent on the complete functionality of his key buildings as there are most times 2 starports and 1 robofactory -> snipe them, corrupt them,... would really slow the growing of the deathball Summing up, you should attack the protoss where he is weak at, which is not his giant unitball! Exploit the fact that you have the better economy and the more mobile army. Drops, nydus, burrow, harrass, corruption should all be techniques that put the protoss under a lot of trouble. In addition, I guess most toss aren't used to being harrassed, as zergs play often way too passive. That's probably because one cannot play passive and reactive against a deathballing protoss, cuz then one would face his 200/200 army. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 08 2011 19:32 Malni wrote: I don't know whether this has been already mentioned, but has anyone ever thought about getting some more overseers to corrupt his key production of VR and colloxian? This could maybe easily countered by adding some cannons or stuff, but as i imagine every toss playing deathball against zerg sitting in front of his pc with a troll grin, preparing to roll the zerg, maybe it catches him offguard. If this worked, it would help buy some more time to get the units zerg wants. Also, I'd say protoss feels kinda harrassed and maybe messes something up or simply overreacts to the overseers. I haven't tested this yet, but maybe it's another idea too few people thought about. Was mentioned a couple pages back. If you catch him off-guard, you can maybe get 2-3 Contaminates off before he has units/cannons there. 100gas per Overseer isn't cost-effective at that point. You use Overseers for scouting anyway so why not do this. Furthermore, I read a lot about baneling drops, but why only attack from the air? I am not sure whether protoss usuallly has an obs in his deathball, but wouldn't burrow sometimes really surprise him? of course for that u'd have to predict where the toss engages you, but if you do, maybe one can also burrow hydras and stuff behind where his army is supposed to go, and then get a nice surround after blowing him up with banelings. Unfortunately this would probably only work once against the same enemy. He has an Observer with his army if he has brains, even if he doesn't know you have Burrow. The main problem i think is that zerg can't face toss in a normal fight, so creativity is the key. The strength of deathball are: - direct engagement - counters almost every unit comp of zerg - very supply efficient due to expensive units - key units are very hard to reach and kill - ~30 more supply in army due to less worker count I dare to say that Baneling/Corruptor/Roach or Ling depending on style is pretty good. The problem is how to get there and how to get enough of stuff. Looking at his list of strenghts, it doesn't sound recommendable to directly attack his deathball. U shouldn't attack him where he is strong, but let's see what his weak points are and how to possibly exploit them. - slow army that has to stay together -> attack his base from different sides - toss is on 2 bases with not too many workers -> zerg has the stronger economy + toss is very limited in gas and resources. This means a zerg player doesnt' have to trade efficiently; if he's able to pick off one collossus or two with losing about 5-10 mutas, thats probably worth it. - toss is dependent on the complete functionality of his key buildings as there are most times 2 starports and 1 robofactory -> snipe them, corrupt them,... would really slow the growing of the deathball 2base Deathball is All-In so you don't get anything if you backstab him. He can just crush your base without care. You basically need to engage him. Summing up, you should attack the protoss where he is weak at, which is not his giant unitball! Exploit the fact that you have the better economy and the more mobile army. Only works if he is going for a macrogame but it's highly recommended to backstab/harass if he is doing just that. Drops, nydus, burrow, harrass, corruption should all be techniques that put the protoss under a lot of trouble. In addition, I guess most toss aren't used to being harrassed, as zergs play often way too passive. That's probably because one cannot play passive and reactive against a deathballing protoss, cuz then one would face his 200/200 army. I would say that the new Ling/Bane style has less problems with Protoss deathballs than Roach style does. With Lings, you are more mobile and can expand ridiculously quickly and backstab the Protoss if he attacks before the deathball is complete. 50 Speedbanes(You get the idea so don't go nitpicking about the number) isn't something Protoss wants to see, be it with his Deathball or not. With faster expansions, I can get 4bases very quickly and go Ling/Bane/Corruptor while teching to even 3base Hive. You need proper positioning so don't go 1a the Banelings in a ball. The purpose of the Banelings are not to kill the Colossi, but to kill everything else. Be it Stalkers or Zealots. Sentries are no problem because they take too much gas that he would have maybe 4 at max and if you engage in as open as possible, the FFs would have little effect. And because of your mobility, you can retreat. Finish with Brood Lords. Both styles are completely viable of course and Roaches are almost a must on maps like: Xel'Naga Caverns Typhon Peaks Backwater Gulch Delta Quadrant Scrap Station Lings are more viable on: Shattered Temple Metalopolis Slag Pits is in between but it's horrible for other reasons. TL:DR I say Mass Baneling/Corruptor/Roach or Ling depending on style. Might be right, might be wrong but that's what I'm using atm. Probably the only harass options are Mutalisks and Drops which the latter might work and the former is viable if the Protoss isn't going Colossus by the moment your Spire pops. You need to engage the deathball directly at some point, depending on if it's 2base All-In or not. If it's not, harass is pretty good to do. High Diamond blah blah take this as a grain of salt. | ||
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ellmo
Poland6 Posts
This might be a terrible idea, but anyway I'd always use Infestors. I just love those squishy, pillow-like creatures so much! Also - lol at the "slow and immobile" description of the Protoss Death Ball. The slowest units is 2.25 speed, Colossi walk over cliffs, Stalkers blink up, Void Rays... well they fly. This army is anything but immobile compared to Terran Mech where Thors have a speed of 1.8 and Tanks need to be deployed which takes like 3 seconds... and to walk up the ramp you actually have to walk up the ramp. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 08 2011 23:50 ellmo wrote: I wonder how Infesotrs with Broodlords would do. Sure it's very gas heavy, but if you execute this right, you can keep the entire ball fungaled while spraying it with broodlings. This might be a terrible idea, but anyway I'd always use Infestors. I just love those squishy, pillow-like creatures so much! Also - lol at the "slow and immobile" description of the Protoss Death Ball. The slowest units is 2.25 speed, Colossi walk over cliffs, Stalkers blink up, Void Rays... well they fly. This army is anything but immobile compared to Terran Mech where Thors have a speed of 1.8 and Tanks need to be deployed which takes like 3 seconds... and to walk up the ramp you actually have to walk up the ramp. If you can safely get Fungals on any units that can hit your Brood Lords, go ahead. I wouldn't bet on it. Infestors are very easily sniped by Colossi because Colossus range > Fungal range. You need pretty many Infestors to stop his army for enough time for your Brood Lords to kill it. That cuts into your Baneling count if you use them, Corruptor count and basically forces you to go Infestor/Brood Lord/Ling. If you manage to pull it off, it's very good but the composition overall is very fragile to even a single little mistake. I just got my ass handed to me by Zealot/Immortal/HT/Archon with 2-3 Sentries mixed in. Should I just go insanely fast Hive and BL or what's up with that? It was on a map where I'm pretty much forced to go Roaches(XNC). I tried massing up Mutas but that didn't work out so well(I didn't get owned by any means, but he was left with a butt-ton of Zealots and Immortals so might as well tap out if he is attacking me and I have no ground left). Magic box and everything. Nothing complicated, just if I should go fast Hive and BL/Roach or something else. Or alternatively Ling/Baneling/BL if the map favors Ling/Bane. | ||
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Psychlone
Canada90 Posts
No replays to show a relatively clear build that consistently beats the 2-base Void Ray + Colossi. You're completely ignoring Idra and Artosis who actually tested this strategy multiple times at a pro level. Idra said it's beatable with Queen + Ultra, but stated that this is a hard counter. That means you need to assume that he's going to go Void-Ray Colossus as soon as he goes on two bases and already start pumping queens and techning to Hive, expanding like crazy, etc. | ||
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